Color me skeptical on the "Black Swamp" find.

CaptainNook

It's all too coincidental. Major "find" in the middle of summer just before the National. Just enough time to get the stuff graded and into a major auction house. Counters the negative press with the Mastro scandal and Wagner trim allegations.

Black Swamp is appropriate though.........because the whole thing has a stink to it.

Nathaniel1960

I am not as skeptical as you, but I would personally enjoy owning a circulated PSA 5 or 6 of that type of card rather than a PSA 9 which looks like it was inserted in a pack of Topps T-206 from five years ago.

1954

CaptainNook- Do you know exactly when the find took place? Do you think just because you found out about the find on July 20, 2012 and it was consigned to HA for the National auction in August 2012, the find occured on July 2, 2012? I bet you would find that the owner found these cards in April or May and he had to find an auction house to do business with. This takes some time to do. I will say I think HA could have made more for the consignor had HA not graded all 30 sets at one time. I agree with Nathaniel one the PSA 5 vs. the way these look.

Shane

flatfoot816

I know nothing about this find other than what I read. However, those cards in that shape --like they were printed yesterday---uhhhhh.

There was a time when no one could have imagined (at least not me) that Mastro was a crook.

armyautin

The owner of the set was concerned about what this find would do to other collectors/collection value. They could have made more money by spacing the cards out, but I think heritage did the right thing by announcing it. Yes, the cards didn't command a resounding premium, but the find may increase those interested in E98s. I bet we see some increased interest on the next couple sets. The HA rep that the owner called about the cards gave a speech at the Net54 dinner. He explained all of this and answered questions. Nothing fishy, just an amazing find.

Nook- one thing I've learned is that when you think something is a conspiracy- it would require too much planning and coordination from way too many people. Added- most people can't keep their mouth shut for the length of time required to I carry out an elebirate plan. However, the ANNOUNCEMENT of this find was 100% scheduled to coincide with the National.

itzagoner

anyone besides me wonder if PSA was so consumed with this major find, that it slowed down everything else in the grading queue?

it's just speculation. i love to speculate.

and if it is about timing, then theirs could not have been any better.

ahkmedbinladen

Speculating and questioning things are good. Wondering how things work and thinking of different possibilities and scenarios stimulate the mind. Anything is possible..from a totally legit untouched find...to who knows what???
You gotta wonder why the prices on these cards fell way way way short. But if one chooses to be a lemming and believe everything he reads or hears ...thats cool. To each his own.

digicat

<< <i>Wagner trim allegations. >>



The Wagner trim allegations are OLD news. A book was written about it a few years ago.

CaptainNook

And there it is.......why did the prices fall way way short?

Indeed, why auction all this stuff at once when the major upside is to spread it out and raise demand slowly? Hmmm.......why sell everything at once?

mlbfan2

<< <i>Indeed, why auction all this stuff at once when the major upside is to spread it out and raise demand slowly? Hmmm.......why sell everything at once? >>



Ahem...
"Over 700 cards were found in the collection, but the 37 cards auctioned off Thursday were just the cream of the crop, split up into three lots. The rest of the cards will be auctioned off slowly over the next couple years, according to Ivy."

bbuckner22

I'm 100% with Nook on this one, The Swamp has a very fishy smell to it

NSibian

<< <i>I'm 100% with Nook on this one, The Swamp has a very fishy smell to it >>



And Nook has already shown that he knew absolutely nothing about this find but keeps blurting out BS like it's fact.

digicat

Must be a conspiracy.

wrestlingcardking

I am paging Oliver Stone...will let everyone know when the movie is out.

perkdog

<< <i>I'm 100% with Nook on this one, The Swamp has a very fishy smell to it >>



I agree 100% as well

ahkmedbinladen

Looks like Nook has some people on his ship. I would like to get on board if he is handing out free rum and an eye patch.

cincyredlegs

The thing that keeps tugging at me is how did the cards stay in such pristine condition if they have been in an attic for the last 80-100 years. I grew up in Ohio and the attics get pretty dang hot and cold. I know when I went back home in May, my brother and I pulled all the stuff out of my mom's attic and 90% had to be thrown away because it had dry rotted. That is what doesn't make sense to me.

I am not saying the cards aren't legit but I am curious as to how they survived in that condition.

Mark

digicat

So, is the conspiracy this?

1) Someone recently manufactured the cards.
2) The grading company knowingly authenticated the newly created cards as authentic, high grade old cards.
3) The Auction house ran a big PR blitz with these items, then sold them.

perkdog

I hate to agree with a troublemaking alt but I stand by opinions that make sense to me. Like Cincy said, cards being "Stored in an attic" tend to get messed up over the course of a few decades, I dont think anyone should dismiss the possibilities of this story being exaggerated possibly.

ClockworkAngel

With the scary advancements in technology, we may come to a day when printing cards like this will be easier and easier to do and harder to detect.

Can someone enlighten me on the Mastro Scandal? Never heard of it

bbuckner22

<< <i>The thing that keeps tugging at me is how did the cards stay in such pristine condition if they have been in an attic for the last 80-100 years >>



Ding, ding, we have a winner! I doubt they could have been preserved that well for so long in a climate controlled vault.

corvette1340

I also can't believe they were in such good condition. You'd think they'd be all dirty and saturated since they were found in a swamp.

MiniDuff

My stepfather owned a book bindery with printer, producing millions of textbooks over decades. He has always thought i was nuts collecting cards and has insisted he could duplicate anythng i had and i woud not be able to tell. that was in 1985~. I did not give that conversation another thought until i read about this find. I have zero direct knowledge of the find, only what i have read, but from the first, it has left a doubt in my gut.

itzagoner

now lemme tell you a story
The devil he has a plan
a bag a' bones in his pocket
got anything you want
no dust and no rocks
the whole thing is over
all these beauties in solid motion
all those beauties, gonna swallow you up

handyman

I am also a little curious of this find. If they can make a fake 100.00 bill then why not make what was once a cheap paper product like these. I think it is possible to recreat this set as it has a simple design. Would be scarry if that did happen.

pmcollectour

I have actually done an attic test. In 1999 I bought a bunch of cereal boxes of Wayne Gretzky. Stuck them in an attic in 2000.
It's 2012 and they are in as perfect condition as when I put them there. Granted it's only 12 years, but I'll check them in another 20 years and don't see
why they would change.

addicted2ebay

<< <i>My stepfather owned a book bindery with printer, producing millions of textbooks over decades. He has always thought i was nuts collecting cards and has insisted he could duplicate anythng i had and i woud not be able to tell. that was in 1985~. I did not give that conversation another thought until i read about this find. I have zero direct knowledge of the find, only what i have read, but from the first, it has left a doubt in my gut. >>



My family also owns a printing business and I asked my old man what he thought about the cards and he said the only way they could be duplicated is if someone had blank pristine 100 year old card stock sitting around to be printed on because they do not make paper like they use to back then, now they use all kinds of chemicals.

pmcollectour

<< <i>My stepfather owned a book bindery with printer, producing millions of textbooks over decades. He has always thought i was nuts collecting cards and has insisted he could duplicate anythng i had and i woud not be able to tell. that was in 1985~. I did not give that conversation another thought until i read about this find. I have zero direct knowledge of the find, only what i have read, but from the first, it has left a doubt in my gut. >>




Your stepfather is correct, you and I could be easily deceived, but I believe experts could get it right.

Griffins

what if they had actually stored full press sheets away in a flat file for all these years, and then upon discovery cut them perfectly, with perfect centering?

WinPitcher

Anthony, couldn't they tell that they were recently cut? Also, IIRC some comic books were found
some years back and they too were found in pristine condition. Comics from the 40's onward.

I think they were called 'The Mile High collection"

BaltimoreYankee

I am also on board as being at least mildly sceptical. The cards just seem so brand new. Saw a bunch in person at the National and they look like they were printed yesterday.

TheCARDKid

What about the '14 Cracker Jack find from a few years ago? I think there was an SGC 98 Joe Jackson in there. The Cobb, I think most of the hall of famers were 96's.

There have also been other 15 Cracker Jack finds in high grade. There have been an incredible amount of finds over the years, this doesn't seem too out of the ordinary.

E98's are kind of obscure, they aren't an everyday set.

I can't think of many pre war finds that really raise a red flag. If someone walks into a show with 10 sheets of a particular set, maybe you have a problem. The Wagner trimming has been well discussed. If people are still paying 5 figures for these cards, people must see some value in them.

Dboneesq

With some of the recent arrests of auction house employees/owners and talks about the Wagner card, if this "Swamp Find" is not real, some people have a HUGE SET to try this now. I'm not as skeptical as some, but I guess you never know.

MattyC

I'd join in this discussion but I have to go out and buy a few hundred copies of Catcher In The Rye.

grote15

<< <i>I'd join in this discussion but I have to go out and buy a few hundred copies of Catcher In The Rye. >>



I prefer Franny & Zooey..

cpamike

<< <i>I'd join in this discussion but I have to go out and buy a few hundred copies of Catcher In The Rye. >>



Hey Matty, can you send me a copy?

pdub1819

<< <i>I'd join in this discussion but I have to go out and buy a few hundred copies of Catcher In The Rye. >>



That's funny.

WinPitcher

What's even more odd is that the family that owned these cards tried to do the right thing
by announcing the extent of the find, only to be now accused of acting in a fraudulent manner.

So, can anyone tell me just where do those ducks go in the winter?

1960toppsguy

Kinda odd it wasn't one of the more main stream sets from that era also

itzagoner

<< <i>What's even more odd is that the family that owned these cards tried to do the right thing
by announcing the extent of the find, only to be now accused of acting in a fraudulent manner.

So, can anyone tell me just where do those ducks go in the winter? >>



please consider the nature of such accusers and you won't go daffy.

jeffcbay

<< <i>please consider the nature of such accusers and you won't go daffy. >>



That's what I was thinking...

WinPitcher

Nice tie in there Itz.

JoeBanzai

<< <i>

<< <i>My stepfather owned a book bindery with printer, producing millions of textbooks over decades. He has always thought i was nuts collecting cards and has insisted he could duplicate anythng i had and i woud not be able to tell. that was in 1985~. I did not give that conversation another thought until i read about this find. I have zero direct knowledge of the find, only what i have read, but from the first, it has left a doubt in my gut. >>



My family also owns a printing business and I asked my old man what he thought about the cards and he said the only way they could be duplicated is if someone had blank pristine 100 year old card stock sitting around to be printed on because they do not make paper like they use to back then, now they use all kinds of chemicals. >>



About 20 years ago when card prices really started to skyrocket, someone I knew that was in the printing business said these cards could be easily duplicated PERFECTLY. I countered with "The paper is different now" and he laughed and said that would not be a problem.

I worked for a printed circuit board manufacturer and would agree that getting the images correct would be easy but somewhat expensive. Colors vary a little with fading so if you could solve the paper issue, I am sure you could make cards not only as well, but better than Topps did.

Joe

mlbfan2

Why waste time faking 700 cards when you can fake one T206 Honus Wagner?

hammered

I agree w Griffins that the most plausible explanation might be that stacked sheets were found and cut up. This would explain the quantity, the centering and the colors could theoretically have stayed intact.

No way these maintain that appearance in an attic all those years. Wasn't the story that they were loose in a box behind a dollhouse or something?
Hell, I have 84 donruss sets that have already started to yellow around the edges with age.

addicted2ebay

<< <i>I agree w Griffins that the most plausible explanation might be that stacked sheets were found and cut up. This would explain the quantity, the centering and the colors could theoretically have stayed intact.

No way these maintain that appearance in an attic all those years. Wasn't the story that they were loose in a box behind a dollhouse or something?
Hell, I have 84 donruss sets that have already started to yellow around the edges with age. >>



That is possible, a lot of the cards have offset ink on the back and that happens when printed sheets of paper on stacked on top of each other for long periods of time.

cwazzy

I'm not saying that they aren't sheet cut. But if they were then why aren't they all perfectly centered? There are a couple that are OC and I recall seeing 1 that had a major tilt to it (but I can't seem to find a picture of that one).

Rudedawg

I consider myself a "skeptic" in most issues and had the initial reaction of "HOW THE _____ DID THOSE HOLD THAT CONDITION?!?!", especially with white borders. However, what pulls me back a little is that a family of multiple people are involved in this situation and I have a hard time believing an "originating conspirator(s)" would involve so many people. I didn't see that any of the family are in any card collecting/self interest business. If a person(s) wanted to orchestrate a scheme of using blank card stock sheets, reprinting or other methods discussed here, I doubt several family members would be sought out or brought into the scheme. There are 20 cousins reported to be receiving proceeds from this.

I live in Iowa (similar to Ohio in weather) and would think that any cards in my parents old farmhouse attic would have trouble surviving neatly for 90 years, but I guess it's possible. Hey, I found my 1987 Topps All Star Rookie Jose Canseco a few years ago in my parent's attic (raw/no toploader) and it was still Mint. (BV $1.00) LOL.

If this collection is truly what it's advertised to be, it is the greatest find ever IMO.

Griffins

Chris, my theory on many chronically off centered cards (where there are others in the set that are typically centered) is that they are stripped onto the sheet off center, so that when they are cut they are off center. And by the same theory, when those typically off centered cards are found centered it's because the cutting was lined up wrong, and those that are typically centered will be cut o/c, and the o/c ones will be centered.

JoeBanzai

<< <i>Why waste time faking 700 cards when you can fake one T206 Honus Wagner? >>



In this case a person would have a better "back story" the cards were part of a sales promotion. This set also seems very scarce so there might not be that much knowledge about them. My concern is the lack of yellowing or "toning" on the cards. Attics get super hot in summer and cold and moist in winter.

A reason to not produce just one T206 Wagner is that some would be suspicious of only one card being found instead of a collection.

I am not saying the find is fake, only that it's possible.

Joe

HoneyBadger

Maybe the auctions would've done better if some respected board members had tossed in a few safety bids!