Many of my favorite dealers were met through membership in various clubs. For example, my local coin club has about 8 dealers that I have become friends with over the years. Based on the relationships I have built through the club, I have had a great experience selling to them (even cull coins). I also go out of my way to buy from them when they locate items of interest. This is one of the reasons I really love belonging to my local club - its the relationships!
I also love bust and seated coins. I have met some great dealers through the John Reich Collectors Society (JRCS) that I have bought and sold with. They have been a pleasure to work with. I have also received some great advice on dealers from by people on the forum who sent me a PM. When I meet a deekhead dealer, I just move along and find one that is a better match. Hang in there, you will find them.
<< <i>I would recommend that you try not to do business with 'deeks' or otherwise undesireable people. Let market forces work. Vote with your feet and wallet - that is the way the system works.
As to the argument that a coin dealer adds no value, am I to suppose that the only people who add value are the ones who produce the goods? Wouldn't performance of a service (let's say, locating quality coins) consititute an added value in the form of a service?
Taking this argument further, one would have to state that a grocery store, hardware store, shoe store, or just about any retail outlet that does not include a production facility, does not add value. I disagree, as I don't want to spend my valuable time having to travel to each manufacturer to obtain my goods, nor does the manufacturer want to waste their time dealing with thousands of individual retail customers, as opposed to a few wholesale custumers. >>
How much value above the dealer's cost is added to an item [for various reasons] is probably different from one person to the next. IMO a car is worth only what the factory will sell it for. A dealer just adds cost. >>
Your response cites three parameters - value, cost, and worth. The extra cost above the worth that you incur is for the value of access, as I described in my post. I agree with your semantics. Each of us puts our own value on this access cost.
<< <i>I know more dealers than collectors. They're easier to deal with than non-dealers. >>
Sooner or later a dealer is gonna need a collector to take that coin offa his hands. Dealers can play musical coins for only so long. >>
I only mentioned I knew more dealers than collectors. Non-dealers are more difficult to deal with than collectors, too. They make up the majority that come into the shop. Collectors and dealers usually know what they want and where they stand.
<< <i>I know more dealers than collectors. They're easier to deal with than non-dealers. >>
Sooner or later a dealer is gonna need a collector to take that coin offa his hands. Dealers can play musical coins for only so long. >>
I only mentioned I knew more dealers than collectors. Non-dealers are more difficult to deal with than collectors, too. They make up the majority that come into the shop. Collectors and dealers usually know what they want and where they stand. >>
There are plenty of good dealers - avoid the ones you don't get along with and enjoy the ones you do.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
If you view people with whom you disagree with as 'deeks', you are probably going to have a rough time with a lot of people. Coin dealers are people too
You confront a seller/buyer with 'How much is that? & Whaddya want to pay me for this?'
Softening up your approach and slow down the closing a bit might work for you better. Try it.
Great thread. As an addendum for my friend Bajjerfan ( I forgive you for dragging me out here again)
Bajj,
My description of non-dealers, as an example, are the type who come in with a chip on their shoulder and having great expectations without understanding. They might have a 1921 D Mercury dime that's bent and scratched and demand I pay them $150 because that's what they are on ebay, They may call with an ounce of silver and ask what I pay PER OUNCE. I might quote 5% back of spot and they call me a thief. They might have had 10,000 ounces to deal, but they ask for a quote on 1 ounce. They have no clue how to ask the questions and dealers usually don't take the time to explain all the intraCACies of the HOBBY vs. the METALS MARKET and silver/gold. They are neither collector, dealer, hobbyist, numismatist or economist. And they usually are just fishing.
They may have received the coin from their grandpa's estate 20 years ago, but had to use it as a screw driver in a pinch one night. The coin was kept in the wallet for 12 years. (that '21 D Merc)
They may have just been testing me as a dealer, and then go tell friends "don't sell to that guy, he will rip you off" without the rest of the story: " I had 10,000 ounces of silver and he offered me a lowball price." Forgetting that a small time dealer is not a "BULLION DEALER" who is up the street, mind ya.
People who use all the dealers in town to negotiate their best deal often find out most of us are 10% to 30% below grey sheet if we are overloaded on common stuff. (don't matter about the brand, either). It is not that any of us intend on being "deeks". It's not the easiest gig with volatility in THE market, either.
I often tell the story to visitors in my shop (I'm a neophyte dealer in my 3rd year in a b&m), about the man who came in to ask if I buy Krugerrands. I said, "I do". He then proceeds to negotiate a price with me for about ten minutes. He was actually very fun to talk to, and nice. But, he was bending my ear , and arm to get the most for his gold.
Finally , I asked him if he'd been dealing or what ? He said he watches Pawn Stars (I don't watch TV so that meant nothing). I say, "okay man, here is spot price (using my hand to describe , because I need props), here is krug (holding up a Krugerrand), and here we are. If you really want to deal, I'll give you spot".
He says "Cool man, you got a deal ! But there is just one thing though" I looked at him and asked "What" ?
He says, "Well I had a fire and they were on the back of my television and they melted into it". I just smiled and said, "Oh, well I'm sorry sir, I don't buy used televisions".
I think he thought I was funny, but others would probably call me a deek.
We all want to buy low and sell high. Dealers provide services and availability to coins. I like the analogy to car sales. With autos, the true value is unknown. With coins, a little due diligence will yield an expected sales price. So, we'll sell a car at $1000 under bluebook (or another reference price) and walk away. Who expects to make money on a car? A coin is a different animal; we see profit. Anybody that comes between us and that profit is bad; right? Retailers generally add 40% (or more) to the cost of goods to stay in business. How else do you think they keep up with rent, insurances, utilities and life?
On the other side, the dealers get the ancestors of fellow collectors who just want to cash out. They dealer buys for melt price and sells at a profit. That has to be a euphoria that would stimulate anybody to continue. And it pays the bills. Dealing on a 10 to 20% margin won't keep the lights on for too long.
Approach a dealer understanding his perspective; money (not rare coins) pays the bills. Cash is king and there is a cost for converting anything into cash.
Smooth transactions with Gerard, mkman123, joebb21
To me, the ultimate test is what your coins bring in the marketplace. I suspect this has happened to all of us, and in fact, sometimes the dealers are right and your coins (or my coins) are sub-par. So, consign to ebay with a reputable dealer, or put them in an auction if you are not happy with the offers, and see how your coins do. If you do better than the dealer offers, you are ahead of the game....if you do worse, then the dealer likely has a valid point. Either way, you will have learned a lot.
I have never had a dealer tell me my coins were trash. I have had dealers tell me that they weren't worth what I had valued them at because of x, or y, or z. In some cases I was right and I did much better by consigning to an auction house or on consignment. Along the way, I leaned a few things about dealers and about myself.
The astronaut Donald Slayton was nicknamed Deke. I assume that slang for decoy is deke so take yer pick deek or deke. Dunno bout deak or diek tho, LOL.
There are some crummy policemen, salesmen, IT guys, teachers, or whatever. I believe that it's just people's attitudes in general, not so much that it's specific to coin dealers.
There was this critical comment by a lawyer about his experience:
"I have noted that, in the past at least, whenever I went into coin or stamp stores, the owner operators tended to be corpulent, self-important, gasbags, that unless you are ready to cater to their whims and make a large dollar purchase, tend to view you with the same disdain a gum stuck to their shoe.
"My family used to collect stamps - just as a fun hobby, but the attitude of those running coin and stamp stores sucked a large amount of the joy out of it. Probably also explains why the average age of a stamp or coin collector is somewhere between 50 and dead."
Critical comments indeed; there are dealers like that but due to the improved market clarity through the internet and advanced technology, it is becoming increasingly difficult to operate as a dealer who is not responsive to customer needs and wants. But I would turn it around, how much fun and how profitable would it be for you to stand behind the counter every day dealing with dozens of inane, uneducated, unscrupulous and otherwise irritating calls and comments by customers, while you try to make a living? Not easy, but that one group of coins and notes where you make megabucks may make all the nonsense worthwhile!
Dunno what a "deek" is, but I feel sure it's something derogatory. (Is that a reference to a certain portion of the male anatomy, pronounced in a mock-Spanish accent?)
'Tis a sad fact that this profession has more than its share of unpleasant personalities. I don't know why that is. I've encountered quite a few. I think greed has a lot to do with it, but then again, I've met some who were honest businessmen but just plain ... well ... deeks.
On the flipside, there are of course plenty of wise and wonderful folks, too, so it balances out.
Halfcentman makes some good points here, especially #4:
...and coin dealers (more than you think) feel the same way about customers for the following reasons:
1) They want to buy nice coins for CDN bid. 2) They are too picky about the wrong things. 3) They also lack proper etiquette, quite frankly more than the dealers. 4) They tend to need their hand held for a smaller, but higher percentage profit that in many cases is almost not worth it.
To that I'll add two things: 5) They think that just because they are part of a group of collectors in a certain specialty or subspecialty area, that everyone else universally has the same interest in and demand for such coins. I get this a lot from the cherrypickers-guide crowd.... yes, it's listed and yes it's probably scarce...but if I have no local buyers for it then I'm not going to pay you a lot of money for it. In fact I'd rather pass, but if you're going to push me for a number, don't be amazed when it's low. It dosen't mean I'm a crook; it means I don't freaking want it. Take a hint. 6)They think that a slab and/or bean means that their coin is universally desirable and saleable to anyone, anywhere, at the time of their choosing, and is worth all the money or close-and anyone who expresses an opinion not in total agreement is obviously just trying to rip them off.
What it boils down to is that yes, of course there are some less honorable "deek" type coin dealers out there, no doubt... there are also plenty of "deek" customers as well. In fact I'd wager they outnumber the former group. How you present yourself (amongst other things) is going to have a direct impact on the interest level on the other side of the counter or table. Also (I sound like a broken record because I've said it so often on threads of this type)... not every dealer has the same area of specialty, local demand, customers, needs, inventory, and overhead-not to mention cash flow. All of those things will factor into their offer as well.
That said-If your local guy is always legitimately lowballing you on everything you show him, it's a simple solution. Stop patronizing him. There are strong buyers in virtually all market segments; the key is to actually do a little work and seek them out. But don't waste their time and yours if you aren't serious about selling or have unrealistic expectations.
The answer is very simple. If you think that a dealer has no ethics or is out to get you, don't deal with him. There are names that I avoid as soon as I arrive at a bourse, or they are on my "last to see list. " I know going in what they up to and have my guard up. Some of them are so bad that I just don't bother to look at what they are offering. This is suposed to be a fun hobby. People who make it less than that, don't get my attention.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
If you do your homework before selling your coins, what you described won't happen to you often. You have to know who might be interested in your coins to begin with. Ie., Gus Tiso isn't interested in your Flyer, and Tom Reynolds isn't interested in an Unc. Cap Bust Half. Dealers are not buying for stock right now. If they can't immediately move a coin, they don't want it.
You also have to know what coins like yours have sold for at major auctions recently, and that if you coin is nice, you'll have to subtract a bit from this, because dealers need to make their margin. If your coin is not nice for the grade, unless it is so scarce, that the grade doesn't matter, all you will get is low-ball offers, if any at all.
There are some dealers (PM me if you want names) with whom I will not do business because I think their prices are ridiculous on their coins, and / or they have been rude to me.
I sold a number of coins at Long Beach in June, and of the six dealers I approached, only one was an a**hole. I can live with that.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Probably the most mentionable probable definition is someone who is both a dork and a geek, or perhaps one who studies all the time, but is relatively stupid in other ways, i.e. Dumb geek.
Other likely definitions can not be mentioned here.
Of course, there are many exceptions to this, but, based on experience, I have never seen a retail business where so many of the people selling the product have such a lack of basic customer service skills, and show such a lack of desire to make a good impression and earn repeat business from their customers. I think this behavior is enabled by a lot of collectors, who tolerate it and continue buying simply because the dealer has what they need for their collection. Let's face it, really rare coins are hard to come by, and finding one you really need might make you put up with a lot more crap than you normally would. The bad dealers don't have any real need to improve, because the business is always there.
Having said that, I can understand a dealer (especially one with the overhead of a B&M) buying coins under bid. Many of them will be sold to other dealers, who will also be looking to make a profit on them. That's fine with me, as long as the offer is still fair and not a rip-off attempt.
I can also say, speaking from experience with the dealers around here (my be different elsewhere if there's a different collector base), that if you bring in coins with a niche market (CPG varieties, high-grade moderns, etc.) dealers will not be interested in them, because the majority of collectors that come through their door are trying to complete sets or make investments. I stopped trying to sell varieties to the dealers long ago, and found that online is where I can get them in front of the niche collectors who actually are interested in them.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
I think, bottomline, is that collectors just need to find a dealer that works for/with them, who has the material they collect, and whose personality and attitude doesn't offend them. But respect and patience goes both ways.
<< <i>I have never seen a retail business where so many of the people selling the product have such a lack of basic customer service skills... >>
What retail businesses are you using in your comparison with coin dealers? >>
Round Rock Antique Mall Austin Antique Mall Grainger Fry's Electronics Best Buy Fast Fix Jewelry Repair (I buy my bands for my watch collection there) Macy's JC Penney Bed Bath & Beyond Altex Electronics Collector's Haven (Dallas TX- no longer in business. They framed a bunch of my ocean liner and airship ephemera and sold me some autographs)
I could go on. I was also an Amusements Manager at Dave & Buster's for 9 years. Not a retail business, but we treated every customer with respect and tried hard to make them want to come back. In every one of the businesses I just listed, the people there go (or went) out of the way to make sure I'm being taken care of, without making a flip judgement about how much money I'm there to spend. Frankly, I don't see where a retail coin business is any different when it comes to customer service. The majority of the B&M's here do it well by those standards, so I know it's possible. There are more B&M's I won't return to in Texas, and a good number of dealer tables I no longer visit for the same reason. I don't expect (or want) a clingy salesperson, but I do expect someone to acknowledge that I am there and offer to help me in a friendly manner, instead of glaring at me instead of saying hello and acting like I'm bothering them when I ask to see something.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
It looks like a fair number on your list are businesses that are not "owner operated" like a coin shop is. Working at Best Buy or Fry's, you have a main office setting policies for company employees. Coin shops aren't typically like that. One of the reasons people start their own business is so they can run them as they please without getting approval from corporate on how to do things.
<< <i>I could go on. I was also an Amusements Manager at Dave & Buster's for 9 years. Not a retail business, but we treated every customer with respect and tried hard to make them want to come back. >>
Sounds like a typical corporate type approach to business, which is certainly fine. It would be nice if you got it but expecting that sort of experience at local coin shops is just setting yourself up for disappointment, if you ask me.
<< <i>It looks like a fair number on your list are businesses that are not "owner operated" like a coin shop is. Working at Best Buy or Fry's, you have a main office setting policies for company employees. Coin shops aren't typically like that. One of the reasons people start their own business is so they can run them as they please without getting approval from corporate on how to do things.
<< <i>I could go on. I was also an Amusements Manager at Dave & Buster's for 9 years. Not a retail business, but we treated every customer with respect and tried hard to make them want to come back. >>
Sounds like a typical corporate type approach to business, which is certainly fine. It would be nice if you got it but expecting that sort of experience at local coin shops is just setting yourself up for disappointment, if you ask me. >>
I agree I'm holding high standards, but a good number of those business started small, and grew to the size they are now not only because of the products they sold, but also because of how they treated their customers.
You Suck! Awarded 6/2008- 1901-O Micro O Morgan, 8/2008- 1878 VAM-123 Morgan, 9/2022 1888-O VAM-1B3 H8 Morgan | Senior Regional Representative- ANACS Coin Grading. Posted opinions on coins are my own, and are not an official ANACS opinion.
<< <i>I agree I'm holding high standards, but a good number of those business started small, and grew to the size they are now not only because of the products they sold, but also because of how they treated their customers. >>
No doubt. If I had to guess, I'd say not all coin shop dealers are trying to grow a business that big.
edited to add... the ironic thing in all this is that there have been innumerable articles written about how big corporations are taking over everything and running mom and pops out of business. All this while coin collectors repeatedly complain that the mom and pops in the coin business aren't more like the big corporations.
<< <i>Have you considered that many dealers routinely lowball the public? Have you considered that many of these lowballers will lie without hesitation to facilitate their lowballing? >>
I don't begrudge a dealer making a living but some dealers are guilty of cheating the public. The rise of internet auction sites provides collectors a means to sell their coins at a fairer price, even with the 12-15% eBay/PayPal takes as their share.
Comparing coin dealers to corporate entities just isn't accurate in my view. With them, you're dealing with a faceless entity; with a dealer you're dealing with a person, a member of your community-and coin shops deal with a different set of aggravations you don't have with big entities. For example, you don't go to Best Buy and tell them their inkjet printer is overgraded and counteroffer them 30% less, you don't go to Macy's and haggle them down to the last nickel like it's a fish market in Chinatown, and you don't flip through merchandise at JC Penney looking for unmarked varieties you can resell at a fat profit. Even the antique malls have a different dynamic... the owners of the booths are seldom there so in most cases you either pay the price or you don't. If anyone dared to suggest that business model for the numismatic business arena, they would be ridiculed ad infinitum (although I must pause to note that they have no problem with said model when buying from the US Mint).
I need to insert a quick mini-rant. It's about people who are supposedly intelligent, advanced collectors who talk out of one side of their mouths about how they understand that coin dealers need to make money to stay in business- yet they will still disdain us, pass out "you sucks" and chuckle when they cherrypick us, call us thieves, crooks and "deeks" when they don't get their way, and then spit poison about us on boards like this one... ...yet they'll come into our stores asking if we can badge them into the next show early, wanting to borrow a greysheet, look up a foreign piece in our copy of Krause or ask us to opine about their latest purchase from someone else.
All I can say to those people is WOW. I wish I had that big a set.
I'm all about serving the customer and helping them out whenever I can... but everyone has a limit as far as the amount of crapola they can eat. There's a difference between serving the customer and kissing their posterior. Unfotunately some people think that the latter is the only definition of proper customer service.
A coin dealer is a businessperson, and just as in every other aspect of life, there are good ones and bad ones. If you had a bad experience, then don't go back to that person; if enough people share your view then the problem will take care of itself when he goes under....but don't paint everyone with the same brush, and don't presume to know who I am or how I do business just because your guy is a jerk.
<< <i>........ I am tired of, whenever, I talk to these guys, they act like they are doing me the biggest favor by stuping to my level to converse with me. And, let me state, I am not a pain to deal with..... RANT OFF >>
Huh, Would you rather the dealers ignore you?
Would you rather the dealers try to talk over your head and be pompous and all that?
Quite frankly, there are as many collectors percentage-wise that are "deeks" as dealers, if not even more!
<< <i>........ I am tired of, whenever, I talk to these guys, they act like they are doing me the biggest favor by stuping to my level to converse with me. And, let me state, I am not a pain to deal with..... RANT OFF >>
Huh, Would you rather the dealers ignore you?
Would you rather the dealers try to talk over your head and be pompous and all that?
Quite frankly, there are as many collectors percentage-wise that are "deeks" as dealers, if not even more! >>
Actually,if your going to force me to choose; yes I would rather they ignore me if they have a pompous arrogant know it all attitude. There are many dealers that have to accept coins for sale (any US Mint coins) like the authorized dealers of the US Mint such as APMEX and others. I sell my coins to them and Provident on a regular basis. My LCS can go somewhere not nice for all I care!
Comments
<< <i>A dealer just adds cost. >>
Nothing is stopping collectors from buying coins from other collectors, is there?
<< <i>
<< <i>A dealer just adds cost. >>
Nothing is stopping collectors from buying coins from other collectors, is there? >>
No sir there isn't, happens all the time. In reference to another thread, one could add coin show promoters/organizers,
8 Reales Madness Collection
Instagram: 8 Reales Numis
I also love bust and seated coins. I have met some great dealers through the John Reich Collectors Society (JRCS) that I have bought and sold with. They have been a pleasure to work with. I have also received some great advice on dealers from by people on the forum who sent me a PM. When I meet a deekhead dealer, I just move along and find one that is a better match. Hang in there, you will find them.
<< <i>
<< <i>I would recommend that you try not to do business with 'deeks' or otherwise undesireable people. Let market forces work. Vote with your feet and wallet - that is the way the system works.
As to the argument that a coin dealer adds no value, am I to suppose that the only people who add value are the ones who produce the goods? Wouldn't performance of a service (let's say, locating quality coins) consititute an added value in the form of a service?
Taking this argument further, one would have to state that a grocery store, hardware store, shoe store, or just about any retail outlet that does not include a production facility, does not add value. I disagree, as I don't want to spend my valuable time having to travel to each manufacturer to obtain my goods, nor does the manufacturer want to waste their time dealing with thousands of individual retail customers, as opposed to a few wholesale custumers. >>
How much value above the dealer's cost is added to an item [for various reasons] is probably different from one person to the next. IMO a car is worth only what the factory will sell it for. A dealer just adds cost. >>
Your response cites three parameters - value, cost, and worth. The extra cost above the worth that you incur is for the value of access, as I described in my post. I agree with your semantics. Each of us puts our own value on this access cost.
<< <i>
<< <i>I know more dealers than collectors. They're easier to deal with than non-dealers. >>
Sooner or later a dealer is gonna need a collector to take that coin offa his hands. Dealers can play musical coins for only so long. >>
I only mentioned I knew more dealers than collectors. Non-dealers are more difficult to deal with than collectors, too. They make up the majority that come into the shop. Collectors and dealers usually know what they want and where they stand.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>No sir there isn't, happens all the time. In reference to another thread, one could add coin show promoters/organizers,
When it's your event (meaning... you- show promoters/organizers- are paying for it), you get to make the rules.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I know more dealers than collectors. They're easier to deal with than non-dealers. >>
Sooner or later a dealer is gonna need a collector to take that coin offa his hands. Dealers can play musical coins for only so long. >>
I only mentioned I knew more dealers than collectors. Non-dealers are more difficult to deal with than collectors, too. They make up the majority that come into the shop. Collectors and dealers usually know what they want and where they stand. >>
What is your description of a non dealer?
<< <i>ARCO SEZ >>
Awrite you guys listen up cuz I've got nuthin to say and I'm only gonna say it once.
<< <i>There are plenty of good dealers - avoid the ones you don't get along with and enjoy the ones you do.
Works for me!!
Some crappy dealers, some great dealers.
Some crappy collectors, some great collectors.
Some crappy people, some great people.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
You confront a seller/buyer with 'How much is that? & Whaddya want to pay me for this?'
Softening up your approach and slow down the closing a bit might work for you better. Try it.
Bajj,
My description of non-dealers, as an example, are the type who come in with a chip on their shoulder and having great expectations without understanding.
They might have a 1921 D Mercury dime that's bent and scratched and demand I pay them $150 because that's what they are on ebay,
They may call with an ounce of silver and ask what I pay PER OUNCE. I might quote 5% back of spot and they call me a thief. They might have had 10,000 ounces to deal, but they ask for a quote on 1 ounce. They have no clue how to ask the questions and dealers usually don't take the time to explain all the intraCACies of the HOBBY vs. the METALS MARKET and silver/gold.
They are neither collector, dealer, hobbyist, numismatist or economist. And they usually are just fishing.
They may have received the coin from their grandpa's estate 20 years ago, but had to use it as a screw driver in a pinch one night. The coin was kept in the wallet for 12 years. (that '21 D Merc)
They may have just been testing me as a dealer, and then go tell friends "don't sell to that guy, he will rip you off" without the rest of the story: " I had 10,000 ounces of silver and he offered me a lowball price." Forgetting that a small time dealer is not a "BULLION DEALER" who is up the street, mind ya.
People who use all the dealers in town to negotiate their best deal often find out most of us are 10% to 30% below grey sheet if we are overloaded on common stuff. (don't matter about the brand, either).
It is not that any of us intend on being "deeks". It's not the easiest gig with volatility in THE market, either.
I often tell the story to visitors in my shop (I'm a neophyte dealer in my 3rd year in a b&m), about the man who came in to ask if I buy Krugerrands. I said, "I do". He then proceeds to negotiate a price with me for about ten minutes. He was actually very fun to talk to, and nice. But, he was bending my ear , and arm to get the most for his gold.
Finally , I asked him if he'd been dealing or what ? He said he watches Pawn Stars (I don't watch TV so that meant nothing).
I say, "okay man, here is spot price (using my hand to describe , because I need props), here is krug (holding up a Krugerrand), and here we are. If you really want to deal, I'll give you spot".
He says "Cool man, you got a deal ! But there is just one thing though"
I looked at him and asked "What" ?
He says, "Well I had a fire and they were on the back of my television and they melted into it".
I just smiled and said, "Oh, well I'm sorry sir, I don't buy used televisions".
I think he thought I was funny, but others would probably call me a deek.
edited for spelling
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
On the other side, the dealers get the ancestors of fellow collectors who just want to cash out. They dealer buys for melt price and sells at a profit. That has to be a euphoria that would stimulate anybody to continue. And it pays the bills. Dealing on a 10 to 20% margin won't keep the lights on for too long.
Approach a dealer understanding his perspective; money (not rare coins) pays the bills. Cash is king and there is a cost for converting anything into cash.
Slabbed Gold For Sale
I have never had a dealer tell me my coins were trash. I have had dealers tell me that they weren't worth what I had valued them at because of x, or y, or z. In some cases I was right and I did much better by consigning to an auction house or on consignment. Along the way, I leaned a few things about dealers and about myself.
Tom
Is that a misspell for Geek?
http://www.coinshop.com
<< <i>Deek?????
Is that a misspell for Geek?
The astronaut Donald Slayton was nicknamed Deke. I assume that slang for decoy is deke so take yer pick deek or deke. Dunno bout deak or diek tho, LOL.
<< <i>I have been on both sides of the table and can say, there are "deeks" on both sides. >>
There are some crummy policemen, salesmen, IT guys, teachers, or whatever. I believe that it's just people's attitudes in general, not so much that it's specific to coin dealers.
"I have noted that, in the past at least, whenever I went into coin or stamp stores, the owner operators tended to be corpulent, self-important, gasbags, that unless you are ready to cater to their whims and make a large dollar purchase, tend to view you with the same disdain a gum stuck to their shoe.
"My family used to collect stamps - just as a fun hobby, but the attitude of those running coin and stamp stores sucked a large amount of the joy out of it. Probably also explains why the average age of a stamp or coin collector is somewhere between 50 and dead."
Critical comments indeed; there are dealers like that but due to the improved market clarity through the internet and advanced technology, it is becoming increasingly difficult to operate as a dealer who is not responsive to customer needs and wants. But I would turn it around, how much fun and how profitable would it be for you to stand behind the counter every day dealing with dozens of inane, uneducated, unscrupulous and otherwise irritating calls and comments by customers, while you try to make a living? Not easy, but that one group of coins and notes where you make megabucks may make all the nonsense worthwhile!
<< <i>Deek?????
Is that a misspell for Geek?
No, mon! Dat's jus how we pronounce it
Empty Nest Collection
'Tis a sad fact that this profession has more than its share of unpleasant personalities. I don't know why that is. I've encountered quite a few. I think greed has a lot to do with it, but then again, I've met some who were honest businessmen but just plain ... well ... deeks.
On the flipside, there are of course plenty of wise and wonderful folks, too, so it balances out.
...and coin dealers (more than you think) feel the same way about customers for the following reasons:
1) They want to buy nice coins for CDN bid.
2) They are too picky about the wrong things.
3) They also lack proper etiquette, quite frankly more than the dealers.
4) They tend to need their hand held for a smaller, but higher percentage profit that in many cases is almost not worth it.
To that I'll add two things:
5) They think that just because they are part of a group of collectors in a certain specialty or subspecialty area, that everyone else universally has the same interest in and demand for such coins. I get this a lot from the cherrypickers-guide crowd.... yes, it's listed and yes it's probably scarce...but if I have no local buyers for it then I'm not going to pay you a lot of money for it. In fact I'd rather pass, but if you're going to push me for a number, don't be amazed when it's low. It dosen't mean I'm a crook; it means I don't freaking want it. Take a hint.
6)They think that a slab and/or bean means that their coin is universally desirable and saleable to anyone, anywhere, at the time of their choosing, and is worth all the money or close-and anyone who expresses an opinion not in total agreement is obviously just trying to rip them off.
What it boils down to is that yes, of course there are some less honorable "deek" type coin dealers out there, no doubt... there are also plenty of "deek" customers as well. In fact I'd wager they outnumber the former group. How you present yourself (amongst other things) is going to have a direct impact on the interest level on the other side of the counter or table. Also (I sound like a broken record because I've said it so often on threads of this type)... not every dealer has the same area of specialty, local demand, customers, needs, inventory, and overhead-not to mention cash flow. All of those things will factor into their offer as well.
That said-If your local guy is always legitimately lowballing you on everything you show him, it's a simple solution. Stop patronizing him. There are strong buyers in virtually all market segments; the key is to actually do a little work and seek them out. But don't waste their time and yours if you aren't serious about selling or have unrealistic expectations.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
The answer is very simple. If you think that a dealer has no ethics or is out to get you, don't deal with him. There are names that I avoid as soon as I arrive at a bourse, or they are on my "last to see list. " I know going in what they up to and have my guard up. Some of them are so bad that I just don't bother to look at what they are offering. This is suposed to be a fun hobby. People who make it less than that, don't get my attention.
You also have to know what coins like yours have sold for at major auctions recently, and that if you coin is nice, you'll have to subtract a bit from this, because dealers need to make their margin. If your coin is not nice for the grade, unless it is so scarce, that the grade doesn't matter, all you will get is low-ball offers, if any at all.
There are some dealers (PM me if you want names) with whom I will not do business because I think their prices are ridiculous on their coins, and / or they have been rude to me.
I sold a number of coins at Long Beach in June, and of the six dealers I approached, only one was an a**hole. I can live with that.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Probably the most mentionable probable definition is someone who is both a dork and a geek, or perhaps one who studies all the time, but is relatively stupid in other ways, i.e. Dumb geek.
Other likely definitions can not be mentioned here.
Empty Nest Collection
Having said that, I can understand a dealer (especially one with the overhead of a B&M) buying coins under bid. Many of them will be sold to other dealers, who will also be looking to make a profit on them. That's fine with me, as long as the offer is still fair and not a rip-off attempt.
I can also say, speaking from experience with the dealers around here (my be different elsewhere if there's a different collector base), that if you bring in coins with a niche market (CPG varieties, high-grade moderns, etc.) dealers will not be interested in them, because the majority of collectors that come through their door are trying to complete sets or make investments. I stopped trying to sell varieties to the dealers long ago, and found that online is where I can get them in front of the niche collectors who actually are interested in them.
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>I have never seen a retail business where so many of the people selling the product have such a lack of basic customer service skills... >>
What retail businesses are you using in your comparison with coin dealers?
That way you don't have to put up with dealer.
Problem solved!
<< <i>
<< <i>I have never seen a retail business where so many of the people selling the product have such a lack of basic customer service skills... >>
What retail businesses are you using in your comparison with coin dealers? >>
Round Rock Antique Mall
Austin Antique Mall
Grainger
Fry's Electronics
Best Buy
Fast Fix Jewelry Repair (I buy my bands for my watch collection there)
Macy's
JC Penney
Bed Bath & Beyond
Altex Electronics
Collector's Haven (Dallas TX- no longer in business. They framed a bunch of my ocean liner and airship ephemera and sold me some autographs)
I could go on. I was also an Amusements Manager at Dave & Buster's for 9 years. Not a retail business, but we treated every customer with respect and tried hard to make them want to come back. In every one of the businesses I just listed, the people there go (or went) out of the way to make sure I'm being taken care of, without making a flip judgement about how much money I'm there to spend. Frankly, I don't see where a retail coin business is any different when it comes to customer service. The majority of the B&M's here do it well by those standards, so I know it's possible. There are more B&M's I won't return to in Texas, and a good number of dealer tables I no longer visit for the same reason. I don't expect (or want) a clingy salesperson, but I do expect someone to acknowledge that I am there and offer to help me in a friendly manner, instead of glaring at me instead of saying hello and acting like I'm bothering them when I ask to see something.
<< <i>I could go on. I was also an Amusements Manager at Dave & Buster's for 9 years. Not a retail business, but we treated every customer with respect and tried hard to make them want to come back. >>
Sounds like a typical corporate type approach to business, which is certainly fine. It would be nice if you got it but expecting that sort of experience at local coin shops is just setting yourself up for disappointment, if you ask me.
<< <i>It looks like a fair number on your list are businesses that are not "owner operated" like a coin shop is. Working at Best Buy or Fry's, you have a main office setting policies for company employees. Coin shops aren't typically like that. One of the reasons people start their own business is so they can run them as they please without getting approval from corporate on how to do things.
<< <i>I could go on. I was also an Amusements Manager at Dave & Buster's for 9 years. Not a retail business, but we treated every customer with respect and tried hard to make them want to come back. >>
Sounds like a typical corporate type approach to business, which is certainly fine. It would be nice if you got it but expecting that sort of experience at local coin shops is just setting yourself up for disappointment, if you ask me. >>
I agree I'm holding high standards, but a good number of those business started small, and grew to the size they are now not only because of the products they sold, but also because of how they treated their customers.
<< <i>I agree I'm holding high standards, but a good number of those business started small, and grew to the size they are now not only because of the products they sold, but also because of how they treated their customers. >>
No doubt. If I had to guess, I'd say not all coin shop dealers are trying to grow a business that big.
edited to add... the ironic thing in all this is that there have been innumerable articles written about how big corporations are taking over everything and running mom and pops out of business. All this while coin collectors repeatedly complain that the mom and pops in the coin business aren't more like the big corporations.
Go figure.
<< <i>Have you considered that many dealers routinely lowball the public? Have you considered that many of these lowballers will lie without hesitation to facilitate their lowballing? >>
I don't begrudge a dealer making a living but some dealers are guilty of cheating the public.
The rise of internet auction sites provides collectors a means to sell their coins at a fairer price, even with the 12-15% eBay/PayPal takes as their share.
I need to insert a quick mini-rant.
It's about people who are supposedly intelligent, advanced collectors who talk out of one side of their mouths about how they understand that coin dealers need to make money to stay in business- yet they will still disdain us, pass out "you sucks" and chuckle when they cherrypick us, call us thieves, crooks and "deeks" when they don't get their way, and then spit poison about us on boards like this one...
...yet they'll come into our stores asking if we can badge them into the next show early, wanting to borrow a greysheet, look up a foreign piece in our copy of Krause or ask us to opine about their latest purchase from someone else.
All I can say to those people is WOW. I wish I had that big a set.
I'm all about serving the customer and helping them out whenever I can... but everyone has a limit as far as the amount of crapola they can eat. There's a difference between serving the customer and kissing their posterior. Unfotunately some people think that the latter is the only definition of proper customer service.
A coin dealer is a businessperson, and just as in every other aspect of life, there are good ones and bad ones. If you had a bad experience, then don't go back to that person; if enough people share your view then the problem will take care of itself when he goes under....but don't paint everyone with the same brush, and don't presume to know who I am or how I do business just because your guy is a jerk.
Ok, mini-rant over. Flame away.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>........ I am tired of, whenever, I talk to these guys, they act like they are doing me the biggest favor by stuping to my level to converse with me. And, let me state, I am not a pain to deal with..... RANT OFF >>
Huh, Would you rather the dealers ignore you?
Would you rather the dealers try to talk over your head and be pompous and all that?
Quite frankly, there are as many collectors percentage-wise that are "deeks" as dealers, if not even more!
<< <i>
<< <i>........ I am tired of, whenever, I talk to these guys, they act like they are doing me the biggest favor by stuping to my level to converse with me. And, let me state, I am not a pain to deal with..... RANT OFF >>
Huh, Would you rather the dealers ignore you?
Would you rather the dealers try to talk over your head and be pompous and all that?
Quite frankly, there are as many collectors percentage-wise that are "deeks" as dealers, if not even more! >>
Actually,if your going to force me to choose; yes I would rather they ignore me if they have a pompous arrogant know it all attitude. There are many dealers that have to accept coins for sale (any US Mint coins) like the authorized dealers of the US Mint such as APMEX and others. I sell my coins to them and Provident on a regular basis. My LCS can go somewhere not nice for all I care!
-D
-Aristotle
Dum loquimur fugerit invida aetas. Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero.
-Horace
<< <i>
<< <i>I am sick of dealing with the "your coins are sh$t" >>
Saying "your coins are sh$t" would be rude. Who said that to you?
<< <i>and worth 25% of bid type of guys. (uh..we are talking PCGS 65 on this coin) >>
PCGS65 coins never trade for 25% of bid? I would find that hard to believe. >>
I had a dealer offer me 50% for a PCGS MS66FB Merc at the Denver ANA. It happens a lot more than you think.