Options
Why are so many coin dealers such deeks?
theump
Posts: 634 ✭✭
I fully expect to get flamed for this, but I have had it.
RANT ON:
First let me say, that I know there are a good percentage of coin dealers who are good guys and a joy to work with. Sadly, I have found few of those over the years.
I am sick of dealing with the "your coins are sh$t" and worth 25% of bid type of guys. (uh..we are talking PCGS 65 on this coin)
Then in the same breadth, "whaddya mean you don't wanna pay that for my coin!"
Obviously, I am overstating the matter here, but you get my drift.
I am tired of, whenever, I talk to these guys, they act like they are doing me the biggest favor by stuping to my level to converse with me.
And, let me state, I am not a pain to deal with. I know what I want or what I have to sell, and I don't offer to buy at a joke level or want moon money for my coins.
And to boot, I am a real buyer and seller of coins.
RANT OFF
RANT ON:
First let me say, that I know there are a good percentage of coin dealers who are good guys and a joy to work with. Sadly, I have found few of those over the years.
I am sick of dealing with the "your coins are sh$t" and worth 25% of bid type of guys. (uh..we are talking PCGS 65 on this coin)
Then in the same breadth, "whaddya mean you don't wanna pay that for my coin!"
Obviously, I am overstating the matter here, but you get my drift.
I am tired of, whenever, I talk to these guys, they act like they are doing me the biggest favor by stuping to my level to converse with me.
And, let me state, I am not a pain to deal with. I know what I want or what I have to sell, and I don't offer to buy at a joke level or want moon money for my coins.
And to boot, I am a real buyer and seller of coins.
RANT OFF
0
Comments
Car dealers do it too.
It's the art of selling, sad as that may be.
WS
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
you don't have a good dealer
1) They want to buy nice coins for CDN bid.
2) They are too picky about the wrong things.
3) They also lack proper etiquette, quite frankly more than the dealers.
4) They tend to need their hand held for a smaller, but higher percentage profit that in many cases is almost not worth it.
5) I could keep on going.
A good retail customer, even one with money to spend should and must know how to conduct themselves. This way you can go to bed if you are REALLY doing the right thing, regardless whether or not the dealer is really a total sleazeball.
BUT FINALLY, just remember that it's business. Most dealers are not going to be your friends; you're not going to take them out to dinner, and you're not going to go over their house in order to watch football.
Trying to inject a little insight with some dry humor along the way!
Greg
I ask two questions :
What is your objective ?
What are your expectations ?
If I can help, I'm a hero. If I can't, I'm a deek. I think
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>it's simple
you don't have a good dealer >>
Are you saying you can be a successful coin dealer by default?
YMMV
<< <i>Why are so many coin dealers such deeks? >>
Because they used to be collectors and never got over it?
Many consider deekiness as integral to the human condition. Some aver that all of us may be a little bit Elvis but the deek, too, lurks deep and unbidden within us all
In coins there are so many confirmed sightings of deeks that it's easy to assume they're everywhere. They are
Denizens of which back door to the dark eddies of numismatic commerce vex you most?
There are bucket shops, brick & mortars, flea markets, local 20 table shows, regional 50 table shows, and majors. And the Net. What's worked for you? What hasn't?
Assuming "deek" descends from Richard Cranium, in his mustard-stained guise as an obsessive-compulsive dweeb with a Blue Book or a BlueSheet, where does this archetype show up for you most often?
After a few wrangles of whatever kind, aggravations tend to show some common theme. There are insights to be gained by reflection upon that old folk aphorism "There are no victims, only volunteers".
Name your poison.
Obviously, I am overstating the matter here, but you get my drift.
Have you considered the possibility that the dealers are right?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I've had the same thing occur to me on a few occasions. One example that comes to mind: I was selling a PCGS MS64 1858 flying eagle cent. CDN bid on this coin was around 1200$ if I remember correctly. This wasn't a spotted up or bad looking coin, it was nice. One dealer I came to had a bunch of PCGS coins in his cases with a decent selection of type and some copper. Well I show it to him and he asks me what I want for it...I told him somewhere around bid would work for me...he looks at me like I'm crazy and made some smart ass remark about "good luck with that". So I asked him what he will pay and he says "Well I can offer you 800$ for it, and you won't get any better offer here". So I just un-pocketed a nice wad of cash and asked him how many of his coins were going for CDN bid, as I might be a buyer....and of course all of his coins were multiples of bid. I just laughed in his face and told him "good luck with that" and walked off. I'm not and idiot or a charity case, and I sure didn't need his snide comments accompanying his 75% of bid offer...I will point out that I did sell this coin for 100% of bid at the same show. I have noticed that some coin dealers idolize themselves, I just avoid them as I find out who they are....and to be completely honest, If you are an ass to me (coin dealer, Walmart cashier or anyone) I have no qualms about being one right back.
YMMV
Where's the LIKE Button!
I really liked your approach as you just gotta wonder why some coin dealers are even in business.
Coin buying and selling is a people business which requires contact with "individuals"! If you don't know how to interact with "individuals" then you need to find a different line of business.
It's just that simple.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I often wonder how long these kind of dealers can last... they're truly a wierd breed. Nowadays I view them as an amusing sideshow, like interesting museum pieces or exotic animals in a zoo and pray that I don't wind up just like them in my old age, grumpily trying to get out of a deacdes old coin hoard...
These dealers can last because many of them could almost care less whether or not you buy something from them.
Many dealers look at retail customers as a nuisance, because as a whole they overestimate their importance with regards to the dynamics of the bourse. Dealers looking at doing business with other dealers easier with more volume and less agita. They would much rather buy from the general public than sell to them. Again, this is a GENERAL statement.
So where do the coins end up? Surely the collector has to fit somewhere in the equation. They do. Dealers have customers who loathe going to shows, nor may they have the time. They have customers who are fringe collectors looking to put together material.
As far as I am concerned (I do one show a year), I have a Taoist approach and take things as they are. Leopards don't change their spots, and people are people.
<< <i>I am sick of dealing with the "your coins are sh$t" >>
Saying "your coins are sh$t" would be rude. Who said that to you?
<< <i>and worth 25% of bid type of guys. (uh..we are talking PCGS 65 on this coin) >>
PCGS65 coins never trade for 25% of bid? I would find that hard to believe.
<< <i>I am sick of dealing with the "your coins are sh$t" and worth 25% of bid type of guys. (uh..we are talking PCGS 65 on this coin)
Obviously, I am overstating the matter here, but you get my drift.
Have you considered the possibility that the dealers are right? >>
Have you considered that many dealers routinely lowball the public? Have you considered that many of these lowballers will lie without hesitation to facilitate their lowballing?
<< <i>Unlike a factory worker or farmer, coin dealers add no value to their product. >>
That's just silly. Coin dealers spend time and money most collectors aren't willing to invest in locating coins and making them available for sale. So yes, they do add value.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Or when you say deeks, you really mean d*cks?
Sorry, just wanted to clarify
<< <i>
<< <i>Unlike a factory worker or farmer, coin dealers add no value to their product. >>
That's just silly. Coin dealers spend time and money most collectors aren't willing to invest in locating coins and making them available for sale. So yes, they do add value. >>
There's nothing silly about it. The coins we collect have existed for generations. Dealers sell them high. The collectors' heirs sell them low, and the process starts all over again.
I recognize that dealers add liquidity to the market and facilitate transactions; however, the coins already exist. As middlemen, there is little or no value that dealers can add. Furthermore, in the age of the internet, where information is readily available, the role of middlemen will decline with the increase in information. I say good riddance to the predatory dealers. I'd rather sell my duplicates to other collectors on eBay or through this forum.
And by a dealer telling me my coins are sh$t, I mean no matter what coin I have to sell, a dealer tells me, these coins are just not selling, "X" is wrong, it's overgraded, etc, etc. Never: "wow, thats a nice coin!"
On the flip side, there have been occassions where I have dropped $2k on coins I have liked. I do not waste a dealers time when am in a shop to buy.
And in my headline I meant deeks as in d$cks.
<< <i>There's nothing silly about it. >>
Yes, there is.
<< <i>The coins we collect have existed for generations. >>
Nobody disputes this.
<< <i>Dealers sell them high. The collectors' heirs sell them low, and the process starts all over again. >>
If dealers aren't adding value, why are the heirs selling to them instead of another colector (who will try to buy as low as he can, of course).
<< <i>I recognize that dealers add liquidity to the market and facilitate transactions; >>
In other words, "value".
<< <i>however, the coins already exist. >>
Again, nobody disputes this.
<< <i>As middlemen, there is little or no value that dealers can add. >>
The fact that dealers exist would tend to disprove this claim. If they didn't add value, nobody would buy from them.
<< <i>Furthermore, in the age of the internet, where information is readily available, the role of middlemen will decline with the increase in information. >>
Maybe so. Is the internet adding value?
<< <i>I say good riddance to the predatory dealers. I'd rather sell my duplicates to other collectors on eBay or through this forum. >>
There's nothing stopping you.
<< <i>And by a dealer telling me my coins are sh$t, I mean no matter what coin I have to sell, a dealer tells me, these coins are just not selling, "X" is wrong, it's overgraded, etc, etc. Never: "wow, thats a nice coin!" >>
Sellers coming here to complain about dealers' buying prices write that dealers never admit that the coins being offered are nice. Several possibilities- the coins are nice and the dealers are lying, the coins aren't nice and the dealer is being honest or something somewhere in the middle of the two extremes.
What do you suppose the odds are, that for every poster who's claimed to have been lowballed on nice coins, all the coins in question actually were nice? I suppose this really could be the Lake Wobegone Coin Forum, couldn't it?
<< <i>Come see me. I buy and sell every day. Today a lady wanted to know what her Indian head cents and foreign coins were worth. Mind ya, this is over a telephone.
I ask two questions :
What is your objective ?
What are your expectations ?
If I can help, I'm a hero. If I can't, I'm a deek. I think
Someday we'll do business when silver and gold prices go higher. I just think now is a buyers market,and I am trying my best to buy some common date high grade Morgans at bargain basement prices. I have coming in the mail tomorrow a PCGS CACd graded Morgan 1883 MS65+PL. as just one example.I may have paid more than I normally would,but in this case I bought the coin,not the holder. It has my favorite toning: a beautiful gun metal blue patina.
<< <i>
<< <i>Come see me. I buy and sell every day. Today a lady wanted to know what her Indian head cents and foreign coins were worth. Mind ya, this is over a telephone.
I ask two questions :
What is your objective ?
What are your expectations ?
If I can help, I'm a hero. If I can't, I'm a deek. I think
Someday we'll do business when silver and gold prices go higher. I just think now is a buyers market,and I am trying my best to buy some common date high grade Morgans at bargain basement prices. I have coming in the mail tomorrow a PCGS CACd graded Morgan 1883 MS65+PL. as just one example.I may have paid more than I normally would,but in this case I bought the coin,not the holder. It has my favorite toning: a beautiful gun metal blue patina. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Come see me. I buy and sell every day. Today a lady wanted to know what her Indian head cents and foreign coins were worth. Mind ya, this is over a telephone.
I ask two questions :
What is your objective ?
What are your expectations ?
If I can help, I'm a hero. If I can't, I'm a deek. I think
Someday we'll do business when silver and gold prices go higher. I just think now is a buyers market,and I am trying my best to buy some common date high grade Morgans at bargain basement prices. I have coming in the mail tomorrow a PCGS CACd graded Morgan 1883 MS65+PL. as just one example.I may have paid more than I normally would,but in this case I bought the coin,not the holder. It has my favorite toning: a beautiful gun metal blue patina. >>
>>
Correction: Grade is 1883cc MS65+PL
If dealers aren't adding value, why are the heirs selling to them instead of another colector (who will try to buy as low as he can, of course).
<< <i>
Because many heirs are ignorant sellers, not astute collectors, and they get ensnared by predatory dealers.
<< <i>I say good riddance to the predatory dealers. I'd rather sell my duplicates to other collectors on eBay or through this forum. >>
There's nothing stopping you. >>
You're absolutely right about that. I encourage everyone else to do the same. Tell the predatory dealers to pound sand. I've sold to some good honest dealers on this forum, at a profit and for a fair price. I've also sold to many forum members either through eBay or directly. I wouldn't waste my time with a habitual lowballer.
also, i understand the offering prices of dealers. i was offered 15 dollars one time for a coin i sold on my own for 2k dollars from a dealer in la crosse, wisconsin. it was the owner's son though, so whether that accounted for it or not, i don't know. the owner was out. but i don't think they're deeks or so many of them. i think, like all human relations, compatibility issues between people to be the main culprit in dealing with people on all ends of the spectrum. while you may be lowballed by that dealer for a coin, someone else walks in to the same dealer with that very same coin and they will receive a fair offer. it is just the way it is. hope you have a good day
<< <i>"deeks"? >>
<< <i>I'm not certain what a "deek" is, but I am certain you have not dealt with me.
You beat me to it!
Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
Recently I had a PCGS coin that I offered to a dealer over the phone. The dealer quoted a price that was more than bid and more than I had in mine. I accepted and the dealer purchased my coin. You just have to find the right dealers to do business with.
<< <i>I remember stopping by my favorite B&M back in the early 1970's when he had just bought a very low grade 1793 Wreath Cent, that had walked in the door. He had paid $150 for it which I thought was fair at that time. The person from whom he had bought it had been to another B&M in town and got an offer. The dealer asked me " What is the lowest price that you think a dealer would offer? ". I said " I think anyone would have to have a lot of nerve to offer any less that $50". The dealer told me that the other dealer, who was a preacher, had offered $5! During several decades, when the other dealer was in business, I only bought one item from him and that was only because it was a very rare ( non coin ) item.
Recently I had a PCGS coin that I offered to a dealer over the phone. The dealer quoted a price that was more than bid and more than I had in mine. I accepted and the dealer purchased my coin. You just have to find the right dealers to do business with.
Please PM me with a short list of "the right dealers". I will be eternally grateful!
<< <i>I'm not certain what a "deek" is, but I am certain you have not dealt with me.
A turkey hunter frequently refers to a decoy [fake turkey] as a deek/deke. I spose waterfowl hunters do it as well. Must be that a deek is a fake coin dealer!
Steve
<< <i>
<< <i>Unlike a factory worker or farmer, coin dealers add no value to their product. >>
That's just silly. Coin dealers spend time and money most collectors aren't willing to invest in locating coins and making them available for sale. So yes, they do add value. >>
A coin dealer is like a car dealer wherein they add mostly cost and very little value. Both are also alike in that either can follow you into a revolving door and come out ahead of you. A good way to test this would be to buy a coin from dealer A that he swears is PQ+++ and shop it around to other dealers and see if the offer you PQ+++ bid money for it. People buy cars from dealers because it is too much hassle for the factory to deal with everyone individually. Coin dealers offer convenience. With the advent ot the internet, it is becoming easier and easier for collectors to connect with other collectors.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>
<< <i>I remember stopping by my favorite B&M back in the early 1970's when he had just bought a very low grade 1793 Wreath Cent, that had walked in the door. He had paid $150 for it which I thought was fair at that time. The person from whom he had bought it had been to another B&M in town and got an offer. The dealer asked me " What is the lowest price that you think a dealer would offer? ". I said " I think anyone would have to have a lot of nerve to offer any less that $50". The dealer told me that the other dealer, who was a preacher, had offered $5! During several decades, when the other dealer was in business, I only bought one item from him and that was only because it was a very rare ( non coin ) item.
Recently I had a PCGS coin that I offered to a dealer over the phone. The dealer quoted a price that was more than bid and more than I had in mine. I accepted and the dealer purchased my coin. You just have to find the right dealers to do business with.
Please PM me with a short list of "the right dealers". I will be eternally grateful! >>
Most if not all of the coin dealers who are active participants here are fair and honest coin dealers who freely give their time to share their knowledge and experiences.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Coin dealers offer convenience. >>
Offering convenience is adding value.
Not everybody wants to spend 10-15 years learning about their coins and how to best sell them. And then spend thousands of dollars a year on advertising and additional thousands on travelling to shows around the country in order to identify the buyers who will allow them to realize a maximum value when selling those coins.
As to the argument that a coin dealer adds no value, am I to suppose that the only people who add value are the ones who produce the goods? Wouldn't performance of a service (let's say, locating quality coins) consititute an added value in the form of a service?
Taking this argument further, one would have to state that a grocery store, hardware store, shoe store, or just about any retail outlet that does not include a production facility, does not add value. I disagree, as I don't want to spend my valuable time having to travel to each manufacturer to obtain my goods, nor does the manufacturer want to waste their time dealing with thousands of individual retail customers, as opposed to a few wholesale custumers.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I remember stopping by my favorite B&M back in the early 1970's when he had just bought a very low grade 1793 Wreath Cent, that had walked in the door. He had paid $150 for it which I thought was fair at that time. The person from whom he had bought it had been to another B&M in town and got an offer. The dealer asked me " What is the lowest price that you think a dealer would offer? ". I said " I think anyone would have to have a lot of nerve to offer any less that $50". The dealer told me that the other dealer, who was a preacher, had offered $5! During several decades, when the other dealer was in business, I only bought one item from him and that was only because it was a very rare ( non coin ) item.
Recently I had a PCGS coin that I offered to a dealer over the phone. The dealer quoted a price that was more than bid and more than I had in mine. I accepted and the dealer purchased my coin. You just have to find the right dealers to do business with.
Please PM me with a short list of "the right dealers". I will be eternally grateful! >>
Most if not all of the coin dealers who are active participants here are fair and honest coin dealers who freely give their time to share their knowledge and experiences. >>
I agree but would like to add that working with a dealer is just like any facet of business , over the long term is where the best deals are forged and they are 33% business sense, 66% mutual relationship and 1% timing
The thread brings up all sorts of additional questions:
* do collectors have unrealistic expectations?
* if yes to the first, why is that?
* do collectors that complain, take the time, money (yes, money) and effort to develop long term relationships with one or more dealers?
* if not, then what do you expect? Does a walk up first time customer really expect to get the same prices that a life long customer and possibly a good friend gets? That brings us back to #1, unrealistic expectations.
As always, coins trade at a wide range of prices. From low end wholesale to high end retail, the difference may well be 300%+ (thus the low ball offers of 25% of retail value). The unknown customer tends to experience the worst of those extremes both buying and selling.
I could cite so many stories or threads. One that comes to mind is a collector posted that he had $5000 in wholesale value in coins and offered the entire lot to a dealer. The cash offer was $3500 and collector thought the offer was extremely low, bordering on criminal. When further details were revealed, it turned out that collector had paid $5000 for his coins on various retail auction sites, such as Teletrade, Heritage, Ebay. Because he had paid near sheet bid prices, he thought that he had $5000 in wholesale value. This brings us back to #1, unrealistic expectations.
Dealers are not angels, neither are collectors. Some dealers do routinely make lowball offers to new customers. Some dealers tend to do one-way markets, only selling to retail customers, preferring to buy from other dealers, not collectors. Some dealers will offer strong to collectors, but that group will almost always offer more to their steady customers and friends.
HOWEVER, selling is NOT an easy thing and it takes persistence, hard work and patience. In my experiences, if you look hard enough you WILL find some 'GOOD' dealers out there that will pay you a fair price. I have learned this and that is how I operate, now. Don't EVER take the first crummy, lowball offer just because you need the money or out of a feeling of desperation-----LOOK AROUND and find the RIGHT dealer for you and for THAT specific transaction. IT is worth the time and money!! He is likely out there and THAT has been MY personal experience.
And remember, dealer A may offer you a good price on coin A, while Dealer B will not AND Dealer B may offer you a good price on coin B while dealer A will not. Just like all coins may not be for you as a collector----all coins may not be for the same dealer. If a dealer has done alright by you in the past, don't fault him just because he won't buy EVERYTHING that you offer him. I only fault the jokers who lowball me and make me poor offers CONSISTENTLY.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
<< <i>I know more dealers than collectors. They're easier to deal with than non-dealers. >>
Sooner or later a dealer is gonna need a collector to take that coin offa his hands. Dealers can play musical coins for only so long.
<< <i>I would recommend that you try not to do business with 'deeks' or otherwise undesireable people. Let market forces work. Vote with your feet and wallet - that is the way the system works.
As to the argument that a coin dealer adds no value, am I to suppose that the only people who add value are the ones who produce the goods? Wouldn't performance of a service (let's say, locating quality coins) consititute an added value in the form of a service?
Taking this argument further, one would have to state that a grocery store, hardware store, shoe store, or just about any retail outlet that does not include a production facility, does not add value. I disagree, as I don't want to spend my valuable time having to travel to each manufacturer to obtain my goods, nor does the manufacturer want to waste their time dealing with thousands of individual retail customers, as opposed to a few wholesale custumers. >>
How much value above the dealer's cost is added to an item [for various reasons] is probably different from one person to the next. IMO a car is worth only what the factory will sell it for. A dealer just adds cost.