New Legend Hot Topic posted. Deja vu all over again
Justacommeman
Posts: 22,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
Walker Proof Digital Album
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
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No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left
<< <i>I wonder whose slab it is in. >>
PCGS and It was the same coin covered in a recent thread
Of course she reads these boards and I'm sure she would send her thanks Agentjim
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>I was aware that a coin doctor was teaching at the first ANA summer seminar this year (this was a topic of conversation among several of us who attended). Laura indicated that there were two coin doctors serving as teachers. Nice. >>
Did you learn anything
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>I was aware that a coin doctor was teaching at the first ANA summer seminar this year (this was a topic of conversation among several of us who attended). Laura indicated that there were two coin doctors serving as teachers. Nice. >>
I certainly hope that "several of us who attended" brought this up to the ANA's leadership. I also hope Laura does the same for the "two" coin doctors that were instructing as well. It's fine to chat or blog about it, but until somebody has the courage to speak up (and that includes ... disclosing names) then little will be done.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>
<< <i>I was aware that a coin doctor was teaching at the first ANA summer seminar this year (this was a topic of conversation among several of us who attended). Laura indicated that there were two coin doctors serving as teachers. Nice. >>
Did you learn anything
MJ >>
Unfortunately (or fortunately?), yes---about dealers who do business with one of the coin doctors. I will not do any business with them in the future.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
i believe i know the answers to these questions but will withhold till i get some feedback since i may be wrong.
<< <i> (and that includes ... disclosing names) >>
It doesnt help us much if we don't know.
EAC 6024
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i> (and that includes ... disclosing names) >>
It doesnt help us much if we don't know. >>
True, but it wouldn't help much if you did. How often do you see a coin for sale by a retail dealer or auction house, with the disclosure that it had been doctored (much less that Dr. XX did the work)?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Seems to me that if a coin doctor is willing to teach collectors how to grade, and how to detect coin doctoring, that can only be a good thing. What am I missing? >>
A sense of irony or cynicism, perhaps? People do not come to the ANA summer seminars to teach if they honestly believe that what they teach their students will adversely affect their (i.e., the teacher's) livelihoods.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
I can't wait until a certain member of the ANA Board who frequents this forum explains that one.
Member ANA, SPMC, SCNA, FUN, CONECA
It does not matter one bit to the doctor if a relatively small number of collectors will reject the coin, because it's easy enough to sell the coin elsewhere. Wholesale, retail or at auction. In other words, teaching a small number of collectors how to protect themselves will not "adversely affect" his livelihood.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Seems to me that if a coin doctor is willing to teach collectors how to grade, and how to detect coin doctoring, that can only be a good thing. What am I missing? >>
Well, only if they have found and accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
(Works for convicted felons, why not coin doctors?)
peacockcoins
<< <i>Well, only if they have found and accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
(Works for convicted felons, why not coin doctors?) >>
Braddick, does this work to get out of a speeding ticket? O lord, was I going that fast?
MJ, nice to have you back as the OFFICIAL FORUM Legend referral service. An interloper was taking over your duties, pfffffffffffft.
<< <i>Seems to me that if a coin doctor is willing to teach collectors how to grade, and how to detect coin doctoring, that can only be a good thing. What am I missing? >>
As a student in a class at this summer seminar taught by a coin doctor, I agree with Mr Eureka.
The coin doctor was very upfront, described exactly what he did, gave examples of what the thought were "good doctoring" vs bad, (not a universally agreed list, even in the class, and even between the 4 instructors), answered questions on the subject, and showed a few examples of his work.
The coin doctor was also the most appreciative of original coins of the instructors, pointing out which were the fresh untouched examples and which had been doctored (both "good" and "bad")
I think the more disclosure the better on this subject (indeed that is one of Laura's complaints) so that folks can decide for themselves between "good" doctoring aka coin conservation, and "bad" doctoring with an intent to deceive.
while i don't necessarily agree with this statement i find it a bit funny in that the "bad" doctor-ers always seem to be reluctant to have their identity known. even within this thread there are members who apparently won't reveal an identity even though they know it. therein lies the twist.
<< <i>please explain to me why this hurts me? why should i do something about it? how would i go about doing that? while you're at it, please also explain to me, why have dealers such as Legend steadfastly refused to "name names" and hidden behind the defense of Slander and Libel when this has been discussed in the past?
i believe i know the answers to these questions but will withhold till i get some feedback since i may be wrong. >>
Money Al. In it's simplest and purest form .......... Money.
Making libelous or slanderous claims MUST be proven in a Court of Law and obtaining that "proof" can be very difficult and costly. Especially in this particular business where new material is constantly showing up out of someone's inheritance, attic, or basement and grading is all "opinion" based.
I don't know that "assumption" or "circumstantial evidence", due to past doctored coin submissions, can be used as "proof" of guilt or financial responsibility in a legal action. Perhaps not since those "known" yet "unnamed" individuals are still doing their deeds. I don;t even know if this is true?
Perhaps a private one on one with Laura is needed?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Seems to me that if a coin doctor is willing to teach collectors how to grade, and how to detect coin doctoring, that can only be a good thing. What am I missing? >>
Nothing wrong with this at all. Some of the best Criminal Masterminds, with regard to fraud, are now making good livings by instructing major institutions on how to combat fraud and what to look for.
The name is LEE!
and PCGS should make the owner whole via the grade guarantee. I fail to see how this particular
example makes a good case for the impending demise of the hobby.
Most coin doctors are quite open about their activities. They just tend not to post here.
BTW, PCGS and NGC already know who most of the doctors are and it doesn't seem to have helped much.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
then naming there names is not libelous
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>so that folks can decide for themselves between "good" doctoring aka coin conservation, and "bad" doctoring with an intent to deceive.
while i don't necessarily agree with this statement i find it a bit funny in that the "bad" doctor-ers always seem to be reluctant to have their identity known. even within this thread there are members who apparently won't reveal an identity even though they know it. therein lies the twist. >>
The doctors utilize a voice disguiser, ninja mask and an additional body suit so as not reveal their identities. It's grading with the ninja mask on that's the hard part.
When you hear the term "ninja grading" you will no know where the term came from.
It's true that doctors have damaged the hobby and it's a problem that needs to be cleaned up. But imo much more damage has been done by those resubmitting
the same coins over and over that were never doctored in the first place. The plethora of upgraded coins that got there by 3, 4, 5, even 20 or more submissions has
done 10X the damage that doctored coins have. Even the shift in standards from 1996 to 2008 did more harm than doctoring. While the TPG's might love the revenue
20 submissions on the same coin might bring in, the one time it finally upgrades does considerable damage to the whole process. We are now left to deal with all the fallout.
It's possible the sniffer or scanner could ultimately weed out all resubmits...at least on all higher dollar coins. But that would also reduce submissions/revenue. Hmmm.
As someone who has resubmitted the same coin 3X or 4X on half a dozen occasions over a 20 yr span, I guess I'm guilty too. We could debate the reasons for years and
never come to a conclusion. With 1 submission the TPG's might get the grade right 60-80% of the time. With 5 or more submissions for most coins that are in the mid to upper
range of their grade, more than likely the final grade achieved will be the wrong one. The problems with grading coins are far more extensive than just doctoring. If it were just
doctoring, there would be relatively little clean up to do. I guess what I'm saying is don't put all the blame on doctoring, the root cause is much deeper than just that.
Doctoring won't solve nor address the much larger issue. Not saying I have the answers, but just sayin'. It's still better than it was in the 1970's to mid-1980's. Probably no
coincidence that many of the very best graders are/were also the best coin doctors. They had to learn the skills to identify such coins one way or the other. Having a top coin doc
teach at the ANA is probably better than having someone less qualified to teach. It doesn't mean I condone the behavior.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>When are the ANA elections she talks about going to be held? >>
The next elections for the ANA Board of Governors takes place in June of next year, eleven months from now. If you are NOT currently a member of the ANA you will NOT be able to vote for or against Laura next year even if you join the ANA tomorrow. The bylaws specifically state you must have joined the ANA by March 31, 2012 to be able to vote next year.
Laura, if you are reading this thread and you hoped to recruit some new members to vote for you, you better check out the current rules if you didn't know this. Good luck with your effort, anyway.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>i find it a bit funny in that the "bad" doctor-ers always seem to be reluctant to have their identity known.
Most coin doctors are quite open about their activities. They just tend not to post here. >>
I'm surprised to hear this. I thought the situation is more along the lines of what keets wrote.
Who are some of the "bad" doctors that are open about their activities?
the same coins over and over that were never doctored in the first place. The plethora of upgraded coins that got there by 3, 4, 5, even 20 or more submissions has
done 10X the damage that doctored coins have. Even the shift in standards from 1996 to 2008 did more harm than doctoring. While the TPG's might love the revenue
20 submissions on the same coin might bring in, the one time it finally upgrades does considerable damage to the whole process. We are now left to deal with all the fallout.
It's possible the sniffer or scanner could ultimately weed out all resubmits...at least on all higher dollar coins. But that would also reduce submissions/revenue. Hmmm.
As someone who has resubmitted the same coin 3X or 4X on half a dozen occasions over a 20 yr span, I guess I'm guilty too. We could debate the reasons for years and
never come to a conclusion. With 1 submission the TPG's might get the grade right 60-80% of the time. With 5 or more submissions for most coins that are in the mid to upper
range of their grade, more than likely the final grade achieved will be the wrong one. "
I agree with Roadrunner!!!! The process of recurrent submission of a highend coinfor grade being converted into a low end coin for grade undermines the value of the grading process. His topic should stand alone in a separate thread (albeit not a unique theme)
Whether here or there, Roadrunner point is however not relevent to the long standing debate about what is conserving and what is doctoring. I suppose in philosophical terms it is a matter of intent. Conserving is alleged to make a coin better or more representative of its true quality while doctoring is assumed to increase value by deceiving a buyer. The line is, in reality ,quite subtle since both in fact are usually performed to increase value ( read:$)
<< <i>"It's true that doctors have damaged the hobby and it's a problem that needs to be cleaned up. But imo much more damage has been done by those resubmitting
the same coins over and over that were never doctored in the first place. The plethora of upgraded coins that got there by 3, 4, 5, even 20 or more submissions has
done 10X the damage that doctored coins have. Even the shift in standards from 1996 to 2008 did more harm than doctoring. While the TPG's might love the revenue
20 submissions on the same coin might bring in, the one time it finally upgrades does considerable damage to the whole process. We are now left to deal with all the fallout.
It's possible the sniffer or scanner could ultimately weed out all resubmits...at least on all higher dollar coins. But that would also reduce submissions/revenue. Hmmm.
As someone who has resubmitted the same coin 3X or 4X on half a dozen occasions over a 20 yr span, I guess I'm guilty too. We could debate the reasons for years and
never come to a conclusion. With 1 submission the TPG's might get the grade right 60-80% of the time. With 5 or more submissions for most coins that are in the mid to upper
range of their grade, more than likely the final grade achieved will be the wrong one. "
I agree with Roadrunner!!!! The process of recurrent submission of a highend coinfor grade being converted into a low end coin for grade undermines the value of the grading process. His topic should stand alone in a separate thread (albeit not a unique theme)
Whether here or there, Roadrunner point is however not relevent to the long standing debate about what is conserving and what is doctoring. I suppose in philosophical terms it is a matter of intent. Conserving is alleged to make a coin better or more representative of its true quality while doctoring is assumed to increase value by deceiving a buyer. The line is, in reality ,quite subtle since both in fact are usually performed to increase value ( read:$) >>
It's good that gradeflation is being addressed by the top TPGs and other organizations due to the efforts of Laura, John Albanese and others. There's certainly a need for better grade consistency after some dealers started to systematically engage in gradeflation practices such as slamming.
While I agree doctoring is much different (it actually harms the coin), it's also good there's more attention paid by the TPG, PNG and others. I'm interested to see the results of some of the cases brought before the PNG. Given that formerly-docotored coins can be MA, it's appears good to have other opinions here as well - perhaps the same opinions that help combat gradeflation.
and should be included in the definition. It's called statistical doctoring. It has cost the collector far more dollars than alterations ever could when it comes to the purchase
of slabbed coins. The dealers for the most part can dodge the issue because they can grade. Most of the doctored candidates are eliminated during the grading process.
Legend's pool of buyable coins would be far, far larger if all coins could miraculously be placed into correct/conservatively graded holders. I'd like to hear how many nice coins
they pass on only because the assigned grade is too high (and hence so is the price). If anything, not so nice coins get doctored up and the truly nice ones have tended to get their
grades inflationed (1996-2008). We lose in either case. If only we could flip a switch and turn it all back. Hopefully, the cleanup is now in progress. Since very few people bother
to read these Hot Topic threads anymore, it seemed like a good place to post about this. At least I'll get a stabbing, yet subtle reply in the next report.
I recall one dealer telling me (in 2004) that they improved their odds at upgrades by carefully charting who is grading each week and how they do on the coins they submit.
Eventually a pattern of hits evolves in their favor. Then in the future they tend to hold certain coins for the periods when those particular graders are on the clock. Made
sense to me. It didn't hurt that this firm already had on staff some of the world's best graders. But these days, who knows if such techniques are still employed or are just the
musings of us old dinosaurs.
<< <i>Deja vu all over again >>
Indeed.
In more than one way.
For starters PCGS actively pursues problem coins. We are vigilant in our efforts to locate and buy back any problem coin is a PCGS holder. That's how PCGS as spent over $5 million buying back coins and honoring the best guarantee in the business (where else in the world can you get a lifetime guarantee?). We have spent over $470k this year on our guarantee. You can follow this at PCGS Statistics
. To imply that we don't care or that we blow it off is not only inaccurate but insulting. Everybody is a freakin expert when coins turn or problems appear after years in a holder. Who can't give an opinion on a coin that's been in a holder for years? Let's see them grade tens of thousands of raw coins every week - and then lets see how good their guarantee is!
I personally contacted eBay and had the listing taken down. eBay also advised the seller to contact PCGS for our guaranteed buyback. That was one of multiple conversations I had with eBay in the past week.
When we see a coin that has been puttied we normally give it an acetone wash. That usually completely removes the putty and does not harm the coin. Then the coin is regraded. Whatever grade the coin grades is what it is. If it downgrades we either buy it back completely or return it in a lower grade plus a cash settlement - that is up to the submitter. If it turns out to be a piece of garbage we buy it back. We take our guarantee very seriously and anyone who criticizes it doesn't have the facts.
Talk is cheap. PCGS' guarantee is not. If anyone sees a coin in a PCGS holder that has a problem you can either get on your soapbox or you can simply contact PCGS and we will deal with it.
PS - I will be voting for Laura and strongly support her candidacy.
Some years ago a good friend who has a great understanding of how the coin biz works told me that no one in this business wears a white hat. You can call it a cliche, or simplistic, but ultimately you come to the conclusion that it's very true.
As far as an alleged "coin doc" teaching at the ANA, I couldn't think of a better choice.
Edited to add:
Interesting takes in this thread on the crack out game. I'll give you another one and you can draw your own conclusions. Legend is currently offering an 1890 Seated Q Proof in a P 66 holder, the coin originally resided in an N 65 holder with a gold CAC sticker. Nice coin, and it deserves to be in a 66 holder. Was it a bad thing for this coin to be cracked out and re-submitted? I personally don't think so. Would you have passed on this coin when it was offered in an NGC holder? I bet many people who would not have given this coin a second thought because of the holder it was in, would now gladly purchase it because it is in the "right" holder, even if it has been bumped up a grade. And the coin of course now sports a green CAC sticker in it's new tomb.
This is without a doubt and one they have stood by on many occasions for collectors and dealers alike! One of the many reasons my inventory consist of 99% PCGS!
Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM
<< <i>Crusaders always give me that uneasy feeling, especially ones who have waded in the same pool over the years with the rest of us. Different pool to be sure, but go ask Elliot Spitzer how all that crusading worked out for him.
Some years ago a good friend who has a great understanding of how the coin biz works told me that no one in this business wears a white hat. You can call it a cliche, or simplistic, but ultimately you come to the conclusion that it's very true.
As far as an alleged "coin doc" teaching at the ANA, I couldn't think of a better choice.
. >>
You know very well it isn't "alleged" in this case - isn't he one of the little group that is your mentors?
Would that be a bad thing? I mean, after all, not everybody can be lucky enough to have Laura as a mentor.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>...isn't he one of the little group that is your mentors?
Would that be a bad thing? I mean, after all, not everybody can be lucky enough to have Laura as a mentor. >>
It's fine - except for this insinuation: "ones who have waded in the same pool over the years with the rest of us". If he's so concerned about who Laura has been wading with, perhaps we should all be aware of with whom he is wading.
A dozen years ago a grader for one TPG said to me about the other, when I remarked about an upgraded gold rarity "They evidently allow more nose grease than we do."
There's a lot of blame to go around. Some of us have been more than naively ignorant tools of nefarious forces which added to our bottom lines.
That's one $10 Indian muy funqui. I'd suggest using the acetone in an ultrasonic cleaner to vibrate out the long-encrusted gunk.
<< <i>
<< <i>Crusaders always give me that uneasy feeling, especially ones who have waded in the same pool over the years with the rest of us. Different pool to be sure, but go ask Elliot Spitzer how all that crusading worked out for him.
Some years ago a good friend who has a great understanding of how the coin biz works told me that no one in this business wears a white hat. You can call it a cliche, or simplistic, but ultimately you come to the conclusion that it's very true.
As far as an alleged "coin doc" teaching at the ANA, I couldn't think of a better choice.
. >>
You know very well it isn't "alleged" in this case - isn't he one of the little group that is your mentors? >>
Being a blue collar working guy I couldn't afford to buy in to have Laura as my mentor. I'm very fortunate to have a few old friends from "the little group" as mentors.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Crusaders always give me that uneasy feeling, especially ones who have waded in the same pool over the years with the rest of us. Different pool to be sure, but go ask Elliot Spitzer how all that crusading worked out for him.
Some years ago a good friend who has a great understanding of how the coin biz works told me that no one in this business wears a white hat. You can call it a cliche, or simplistic, but ultimately you come to the conclusion that it's very true.
As far as an alleged "coin doc" teaching at the ANA, I couldn't think of a better choice.
. >>
You know very well it isn't "alleged" in this case - isn't he one of the little group that is your mentors? >>
Being a blue collar working guy I couldn't afford to buy in to have Laura as my mentor. I'm very fortunate to have a few old friends from "the little group" as mentors. >>
I think that's great - they'll keep you away from their 'products'. Just so long as we all know the source of the little digs against Laura when you post them...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Crusaders always give me that uneasy feeling, especially ones who have waded in the same pool over the years with the rest of us. Different pool to be sure, but go ask Elliot Spitzer how all that crusading worked out for him.
Some years ago a good friend who has a great understanding of how the coin biz works told me that no one in this business wears a white hat. You can call it a cliche, or simplistic, but ultimately you come to the conclusion that it's very true.
As far as an alleged "coin doc" teaching at the ANA, I couldn't think of a better choice.
. >>
You know very well it isn't "alleged" in this case - isn't he one of the little group that is your mentors? >>
Being a blue collar working guy I couldn't afford to buy in to have Laura as my mentor. I'm very fortunate to have a few old friends from "the little group" as mentors. >>
I think that's great - they'll keep you away from their 'products'. Just so long as we all know the source of the little digs against Laura when you post them... >>
I alone am the source. Please get your facts straight.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Crusaders always give me that uneasy feeling, especially ones who have waded in the same pool over the years with the rest of us. Different pool to be sure, but go ask Elliot Spitzer how all that crusading worked out for him.
Some years ago a good friend who has a great understanding of how the coin biz works told me that no one in this business wears a white hat. You can call it a cliche, or simplistic, but ultimately you come to the conclusion that it's very true.
As far as an alleged "coin doc" teaching at the ANA, I couldn't think of a better choice.
. >>
You know very well it isn't "alleged" in this case - isn't he one of the little group that is your mentors? >>
Being a blue collar working guy I couldn't afford to buy in to have Laura as my mentor. I'm very fortunate to have a few old friends from "the little group" as mentors. >>
I think that's great - they'll keep you away from their 'products'. Just so long as we all know the source of the little digs against Laura when you post them... >>
I alone am the source. Please get your facts straight. >>
We are each a product of our environment. If one's mentors are coin doctors, then one's outlook is influenced by that fact. So when you insinuate that Laura wades with the riff raff in an attempt to disparage her crusade, each of us should be fully aware of the influences behind your comment.
<< <i>Some years ago a good friend who has a great understanding of how the coin biz works told me that no one in this business wears a white hat. You can call it a cliche, or simplistic, but ultimately you come to the conclusion that it's very true. >>
I don't think this is true and I don't agree with this.
My view of this statement is that it's a simplistic catch all that would consider dipping and putty both equally bad (or good). It also sounds similar to the argument that we can't do anything about putty because we don't want to do anything about dipping. I don't consider these to be equal.
I do consider some hats much whiter than others and hope the majority of hats are getting whiter as time goes on.
<< <i>That's one $10 Indian muy funqui. I'd suggest using the acetone in an ultrasonic cleaner to vibrate out the long-encrusted gunk.
Personally I'd be a little nervous about using acetone in an ultrasonic cleaner.
<< <i>Personally I'd be a little nervous about using acetone in an ultrasonic cleaner ..... >>
The whole job in multiple steps wouldn't take a pint of acetone. An open window or vent anywhere nearby and all fumes dissipate far more thoroughly than the conventional warnings would have you believe.
Professional technicians may be using weird potions, stews and home-brews requiring more stringent safety standards.
But the no smoking?