<< <i>Personally I'd be a little nervous about using acetone in an ultrasonic cleaner ..... >>
The whole job in multiple steps wouldn't take a pint of acetone. An open window or vent anywhere nearby and all fumes dissipate far more thoroughly than the conventional warnings would have you believe.
Professional technicians may be using weird potions, stews and home-brews requiring more stringent safety standards.
I've been around the business and hobby for 40 years and the number of higher profile dealers with clean white hats is a very tiny club. And while I'm not a high profiler anything, my hat has a few stains on it as well. I've dealt with dozens of major dealers in that time frame and the white knights are a very select group. Of course there are quite a few I never had the honor to do business with. In fact, many of those dealers who are held in such high esteem today don't have such great records if you look back into the 1970's and even 1980's. Anyone who survived that era would have had a tough time time staying 100% clean. Even the sheriffs and marshalls in the old west weren't 100%. The times were tough and tough measures were required. Being honest to a fault in the 1970's and early 1980's was a 1-way ticket to being an ex-dealer. If I offended anyone, I'm sorry. You're probably one of those in that top 5% that did do it right. And if you actually made money and survived all this time, you're in the top 1%.
My very first $20 Liberty turned out to be a puttied Coin. I'd tell you who I bought it from but I think maybe I'd want to consult an Attorney first. Pie in the Eye might not go over well at all.
Maybe I'd better fire out an email and see if the seller would buy it back from me. Probably so since it's now worth more than my purchase price just in bullion value alone.
This really sucks though because the Coins value is probably only bullion value. It's only an MS64 but still, A solid MS64 would be the Coin I'd rather have rather than a puttied one.
<< <i>My very first $20 Liberty turned out to be a puttied Coin. I'd tell you who I bought it from but I think maybe I'd want to consult an Attorney first. Pie in the Eye might not go over well at all.
Maybe I'd better fire out an email and see if the seller would buy it back from me. Probably so since it's now worth more than my purchase price just in bullion value alone.
This really sucks though because the Coins value is probably only bullion value. It's only an MS64 but still, A solid MS64 would be the Coin I'd rather have rather than a puttied one. >>
Is it certified by PCGS or another top TPG? If so, why not send it in under the grade guarantee.
If it's certified by PCGS, they may be able to work out an arrangement with the original submitter too.
I just now read the entire thread. The Coin in question is a PCGS MS-64 and I believe I got it in about 2001 for about $1200 or thereabouts. The old memory is just a tad foggy. I'm sure I have the original invoice, somewhere.
So how does that gaurantee work? I'll have to look into it.
<< <i>I believe that Laura has good intentions but I have to disagree with statements she makes in this Hot Topics.
For starters PCGS actively pursues problem coins. We are vigilant in our efforts to locate and buy back any problem coin is a PCGS holder. That's how PCGS as spent over $5 million buying back coins and honoring the best guarantee in the business (where else in the world can you get a lifetime guarantee?). We have spent over $470k this year on our guarantee. You can follow this at PCGS Statistics
. To imply that we don't care or that we blow it off is not only inaccurate but insulting. Everybody is a freakin expert when coins turn or problems appear after years in a holder. Who can't give an opinion on a coin that's been in a holder for years? Let's see them grade tens of thousands of raw coins every week - and then lets see how good their guarantee is!
I personally contacted eBay and had the listing taken down. eBay also advised the seller to contact PCGS for our guaranteed buyback. That was one of multiple conversations I had with eBay in the past week.
When we see a coin that has been puttied we normally give it an acetone wash. That usually completely removes the putty and does not harm the coin. Then the coin is regraded. Whatever grade the coin grades is what it is. If it downgrades we either buy it back completely or return it in a lower grade plus a cash settlement - that is up to the submitter. If it turns out to be a piece of garbage we buy it back. We take our guarantee very seriously and anyone who criticizes it doesn't have the facts.
Talk is cheap. PCGS' guarantee is not. If anyone sees a coin in a PCGS holder that has a problem you can either get on your soapbox or you can simply contact PCGS and we will deal with it.
PS - I will be voting for Laura and strongly support her candidacy. >>
Very admirable of Don and the entire PCGS family,Laura actually cares,and she is about the real coins staying orinigal!I will take her advice almost 100% of the time!
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
Frankly, issues around doctoring, counterfeiting, over-grading, etc. are irresistible to the community that services the hobby. These issues promote a sense of danger and fraternity among the collectors. They help build social norms which reaffirm the wisdom of trusting certain providers, and legitimize the decision to pay large premiums for "good" old coins. If there were no problem coins, would there be coin dealers or TPGs, or would the auctions be the only dealers?
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Frankly, issues around doctoring, counterfeiting, over-grading, etc. are irresistible to the community that services the hobby. These issues promote a sense of danger and fraternity among the collectors. They help build social norms which reaffirm the wisdom of trusting certain providers, and legitimize the decision to pay large premiums for "good" old coins. If there were no problem coins, would there be coin dealers or TPGs, or would the auctions be the only dealers? >>
Good question. Since I've been in the hobby (mid-1960's), problem coins have been quite numerous. Probably half the inventory of my local shops were problem coins. But until coin "investing" became popular in the mid-1970's no one paid much attention to problem coins. How far would one have to go back to avoid them? We see even from the Benson collection auctions that scrubbing proof coins in the 1940's or earlier was pretty standard. Maybe we'd have to go back to the 1850's to find few problem coins? Or even the 1790's? Dealers evolve from experienced collectors who see that money can be made from the business. If there's no money to be made, the dealers would all disappear. Coin collecting would then become a hobby like sewing or knitting. The modern coin market flourished due to monetary inflation and cheapening currencies. As long as we have that, I don't think we have to worry about dealers not being able to make a profit. Before slabbing became the rage I'd say the majority of buyers at major coin auctions were dealers....or at least the majority of the dollar value went to the dealers. As a rule, collectors didn't have the skills to compete against them. Slabs, and now +, *, stickering, secure, etc. have reduced that gap quite a bit.
The bigger dollar issue is getting all the overgraded TPG coins off the market. The cost to remove the doctored ones is miniscule in comparison. Even if all the doctored coins were instantly all removed tomorrow, we'd still have major issues with the overgraded ones remaining. And it hasn't helped that now we have labels to identify what coins are possibly lower end. It was a lot to handle in such a relatively short time.
Would it be safe to say that most overgraded Coins were resubmitted over and over again by DEALERS in hopes of making a killing on Coins?
I remember seeing one very anti "dreck" Dealer writing up very elaborate descriptions about having submitted a Coin for upgrade and having it "miss" for unknown reasons. They would use the upgrade miss as a selling point, to make the Coin seem more attractive.
What about the Coins that made the upgrade? Those are part of the overgraded flood of "dreck" out there today. I think most Dealers are just like used Car Dealers. Slipperier than a Mud Puppy.
<< <i>I just now read the entire thread. The Coin in question is a PCGS MS-64 and I believe I got it in about 2001 for about $1200 or thereabouts. The old memory is just a tad foggy. I'm sure I have the original invoice, somewhere.
So how does that gaurantee work? I'll have to look into it. >>
FullStrike, I understand your disappointment. Doctored coins are a plague in the hobby. Many dealers have made excuses and looked the other way for far too long, however things are starting to change though the efforts of PCGS, PNG, Laura Sperber, John Albanese and others. We should support their efforts to curtail doctoring.
At the same time I'm glad to hear your coin is certified by PCGS as they have a great guarantee and you should be made whole at current market prices as determined by PCGS. With the number of doctored coins out there, getting a PCGS slabbed coin adds good peace of mind.
This is a description of how the guarantee works from Don Willis, Presdident PCGS earlier in this thread:
<< <i>When we see a coin that has been puttied we normally give it an acetone wash. That usually completely removes the putty and does not harm the coin. Then the coin is regraded. Whatever grade the coin grades is what it is. If it downgrades we either buy it back completely or return it in a lower grade plus a cash settlement - that is up to the submitter. If it turns out to be a piece of garbage we buy it back. We take our guarantee very seriously and anyone who criticizes it doesn't have the facts. >>
In the past, PCGS would be left holding the bag after making collectors whole which further encouraged the doctors since they got to keep their profits. However, David Hall, President Collectors Universe recently mentioned that PCGS may now also contact the original submitter to recommend them make good on the doctored coin. If PCGS is successful in getting the original submitter to make good on the coin, doctoring practices may be further curtailed in the future so it's important to support PCGS on this significant step forward.
I'm very encouraged by the PCGS guarantee. If I were to reveal the Dealer I bought the Coin from, the shockwave would be huge. No doubt a big mushroom cloud would develope over the East Coast. OK maybe not but surely over this thread.
Well looks like I better get ready to pack n ship my beloved first $20 Liberty. Maybe letting go of a Coin isn't so bad after all? Usually when I buy em I keep em forever.
Comments
<< <i>PS - I will be voting for Laura and strongly support her candidacy. >>
As will I.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>Personally I'd be a little nervous about using acetone in an ultrasonic cleaner ..... >>
The whole job in multiple steps wouldn't take a pint of acetone. An open window or vent anywhere nearby and all fumes dissipate far more thoroughly than the conventional warnings would have you believe.
Professional technicians may be using weird potions, stews and home-brews requiring more stringent safety standards.
But the no smoking?
Just be careful...
my hat has a few stains on it as well. I've dealt with dozens of major dealers in that time frame and the white knights are a very select group. Of course there are quite a few I never
had the honor to do business with. In fact, many of those dealers who are held in such high esteem today don't have such great records if you look back into the 1970's and even
1980's. Anyone who survived that era would have had a tough time time staying 100% clean. Even the sheriffs and marshalls in the old west weren't 100%. The times were tough
and tough measures were required. Being honest to a fault in the 1970's and early 1980's was a 1-way ticket to being an ex-dealer. If I offended anyone, I'm sorry. You're probably
one of those in that top 5% that did do it right. And if you actually made money and survived all this time, you're in the top 1%.
Maybe I'd better fire out an email and see if the seller would buy it back from me. Probably so since it's now worth more than my purchase price just in bullion value alone.
This really sucks though because the Coins value is probably only bullion value. It's only an MS64 but still, A solid MS64 would be the Coin I'd rather have rather than a puttied one.
Signed: Dreck Collector
<< <i>My very first $20 Liberty turned out to be a puttied Coin. I'd tell you who I bought it from but I think maybe I'd want to consult an Attorney first. Pie in the Eye might not go over well at all.
Maybe I'd better fire out an email and see if the seller would buy it back from me. Probably so since it's now worth more than my purchase price just in bullion value alone.
This really sucks though because the Coins value is probably only bullion value. It's only an MS64 but still, A solid MS64 would be the Coin I'd rather have rather than a puttied one. >>
Is it certified by PCGS or another top TPG? If so, why not send it in under the grade guarantee.
If it's certified by PCGS, they may be able to work out an arrangement with the original submitter too.
So how does that gaurantee work? I'll have to look into it.
<< <i>I believe that Laura has good intentions but I have to disagree with statements she makes in this Hot Topics.
For starters PCGS actively pursues problem coins. We are vigilant in our efforts to locate and buy back any problem coin is a PCGS holder. That's how PCGS as spent over $5 million buying back coins and honoring the best guarantee in the business (where else in the world can you get a lifetime guarantee?). We have spent over $470k this year on our guarantee. You can follow this at PCGS Statistics
. To imply that we don't care or that we blow it off is not only inaccurate but insulting. Everybody is a freakin expert when coins turn or problems appear after years in a holder. Who can't give an opinion on a coin that's been in a holder for years? Let's see them grade tens of thousands of raw coins every week - and then lets see how good their guarantee is!
I personally contacted eBay and had the listing taken down. eBay also advised the seller to contact PCGS for our guaranteed buyback. That was one of multiple conversations I had with eBay in the past week.
When we see a coin that has been puttied we normally give it an acetone wash. That usually completely removes the putty and does not harm the coin. Then the coin is regraded. Whatever grade the coin grades is what it is. If it downgrades we either buy it back completely or return it in a lower grade plus a cash settlement - that is up to the submitter. If it turns out to be a piece of garbage we buy it back. We take our guarantee very seriously and anyone who criticizes it doesn't have the facts.
Talk is cheap. PCGS' guarantee is not. If anyone sees a coin in a PCGS holder that has a problem you can either get on your soapbox or you can simply contact PCGS and we will deal with it.
PS - I will be voting for Laura and strongly support her candidacy. >>
Very admirable of Don and the entire PCGS family,Laura actually cares,and she is about the real coins staying orinigal!I will take her advice almost 100% of the time!
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Frankly, issues around doctoring, counterfeiting, over-grading, etc. are irresistible to the community that services the hobby. These issues promote a sense of danger and fraternity among the collectors. They help build social norms which reaffirm the wisdom of trusting certain providers, and legitimize the decision to pay large premiums for "good" old coins. If there were no problem coins, would there be coin dealers or TPGs, or would the auctions be the only dealers? >>
Good question. Since I've been in the hobby (mid-1960's), problem coins have been quite numerous. Probably half the inventory of my local shops were problem coins. But until
coin "investing" became popular in the mid-1970's no one paid much attention to problem coins. How far would one have to go back to avoid them? We see even from the Benson
collection auctions that scrubbing proof coins in the 1940's or earlier was pretty standard. Maybe we'd have to go back to the 1850's to find few problem coins? Or even the 1790's?
Dealers evolve from experienced collectors who see that money can be made from the business. If there's no money to be made, the dealers would all disappear. Coin collecting would
then become a hobby like sewing or knitting. The modern coin market flourished due to monetary inflation and cheapening currencies. As long as we have that, I don't think we have
to worry about dealers not being able to make a profit. Before slabbing became the rage I'd say the majority of buyers at major coin auctions were dealers....or at least the majority of
the dollar value went to the dealers. As a rule, collectors didn't have the skills to compete against them. Slabs, and now +, *, stickering, secure, etc. have reduced that gap quite a bit.
The bigger dollar issue is getting all the overgraded TPG coins off the market. The cost to remove the doctored ones is miniscule in comparison. Even if all the doctored coins were
instantly all removed tomorrow, we'd still have major issues with the overgraded ones remaining. And it hasn't helped that now we have labels to identify what coins are possibly
lower end. It was a lot to handle in such a relatively short time.
I remember seeing one very anti "dreck" Dealer writing up very elaborate descriptions about having submitted a Coin for upgrade and having it "miss" for unknown reasons. They would use the upgrade miss as a selling point, to make the Coin seem more attractive.
What about the Coins that made the upgrade? Those are part of the overgraded flood of "dreck" out there today. I think most Dealers are just like used Car Dealers. Slipperier than a Mud Puppy.
<< <i>I just now read the entire thread. The Coin in question is a PCGS MS-64 and I believe I got it in about 2001 for about $1200 or thereabouts. The old memory is just a tad foggy. I'm sure I have the original invoice, somewhere.
So how does that gaurantee work? I'll have to look into it. >>
FullStrike, I understand your disappointment. Doctored coins are a plague in the hobby. Many dealers have made excuses and looked the other way for far too long, however things are starting to change though the efforts of PCGS, PNG, Laura Sperber, John Albanese and others. We should support their efforts to curtail doctoring.
At the same time I'm glad to hear your coin is certified by PCGS as they have a great guarantee and you should be made whole at current market prices as determined by PCGS. With the number of doctored coins out there, getting a PCGS slabbed coin adds good peace of mind.
This is a description of how the guarantee works from Don Willis, Presdident PCGS earlier in this thread:
<< <i>When we see a coin that has been puttied we normally give it an acetone wash. That usually completely removes the putty and does not harm the coin. Then the coin is regraded. Whatever grade the coin grades is what it is. If it downgrades we either buy it back completely or return it in a lower grade plus a cash settlement - that is up to the submitter. If it turns out to be a piece of garbage we buy it back. We take our guarantee very seriously and anyone who criticizes it doesn't have the facts. >>
You can also read the full PCGS Guarantee of Grade and Authenticity – United States Coins online. Use their contact page to reach them or call PCGS Customer Service at 800-447-8848.
In the past, PCGS would be left holding the bag after making collectors whole which further encouraged the doctors since they got to keep their profits. However, David Hall, President Collectors Universe recently mentioned that PCGS may now also contact the original submitter to recommend them make good on the doctored coin. If PCGS is successful in getting the original submitter to make good on the coin, doctoring practices may be further curtailed in the future so it's important to support PCGS on this significant step forward.
Well looks like I better get ready to pack n ship my beloved first $20 Liberty. Maybe letting go of a Coin isn't so bad after all? Usually when I buy em I keep em forever.