Time to edit my initial comment re your PF Seated $. The new (top) photo does not appear to have any wear. Its color is less suspicious than the earlier one.
Will it grade? Maybe. I never buy coins from images. Images never tell the whole story about a coin. Either I see them in hand and someone I trust (who knows more than I do) physically sees them, and we both like them, or else two people I trust (who know more than I do) see them in hand and both give me a thumbs up. Otherwise, I don't buy the coin. I have never been stuck with a bad coin using this system in all of the years I have been collecting.
You find out how good an eye you have when it comes to selling your coins. Word to the wise - if your coins aren't nice for the grade and can't easily flipped by a dealer, you won't get offers with considering right now.
A PCGS or NGC holder is a form of insurance policy on coins whose buyers believe are worth insuring. To me, a $1,000 plus coin that is raw is raw for a reason. A $1,000 plus coin is worth more when it comes with an "insurance policy." Spending this kind of money without an insurance policy -- unless you're in the EAC world -- is like walking a tightrope without a safety net. I wouldn't spent more than a few hundred dollars on a raw coin, with a possible, but very rare, exception of EAC material
For reasons above, coupled with what I collect, I have never bought anything from e-bay and never will. I've been collecting coins since the 60s & remember the "bad old days." Just because someone makes money buying and selling coins on occasion doesn't mean he knows what he is doing. Much money in numismatics is made by the "bigger fool" theory.
I believe TDN has put together the finest known set of Trade $s, and has owned some of the highest graded Seated and Early Dollars out there. In doing so, he has passed on many coins that 99% of us could not afford. He knows these coins. When he speaks about these coins, I listen.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Here's a question for the bunch: Why would anyone go to the trouble of artificially toning a coin that has significant intrinsic value already? >>
Based on the original seller images posted this example has been molested...
So the toning may very well be secondary and is suspicious to some as the progression has been retarded due to the impaired surfaces.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
Michiganboy, Great job, I am glad you apologized to both TDN and abit...Now maybe you can move on and hopefully all will forget this as a post that went bad. At least, ask around at the show for opinions from some top buyer/sellers of this series, so that you can get a feel for the info provided today. Hold no grudges as life is too short. Good luck. Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>I said your minor coins didn't look like proofs - which they did not in the images that you posted.
When you bottom fish, sometimes you get lucky - but more often than not, you get what you pay for. In this instance, it looks like a decent coin that may or may not be market acceptable for the toning. >>
Have to agree with my pal here!
Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
I think there's a decent chance that this coin will grade. I hope it does. For as little as you paid, it's worth the gamble.
Even if it does end up in a genuine holder, you're not going to get hurt badly, if at all. That coin will probably bring $1500+ on eBay in a genuine holder. A dealer would probably offer about half that price in a genuine holder; so, don't be shocked if you get what seem like lowball offers at a show.
Keep learning and trying. Don't get frustrated or lash out when people are critical or less than tactful. You're going to outlive most everyone on this board and will have the last laugh.
I edited out some of my snarky comments, not to hide them but because they we're out of frustation. Some can still be read in Quoted comments, but otherwise I'm just generaly saying I got offended and acted as such.
<< <i>I edited out some of my snarky comments, not to hide them but because they we're out of frustation. Some can still be read in Quoted comments, but otherwise I'm just generaly saying I got offended and acted as such. >>
MB - thanks for the PM with the apology for bringing me up in this thread. No hard feelings at all. I am glad that you PMd me, and that you seem to be realizing that your posting style has been a bit conforntational.
Some folks just blaze away here for a while and usually end up dropping off the forum. I am glad to see you want to re-enage differently.
I, for one, am going to completely reset my view of you, and will look at all of your posts going forward without any thought to past threads. I wish you well in your collecting.
Good job on having the self-awareness to realize that something was going wrong, and to make your apologies! Being capable of making that reversal is something that not everyone can do - some people will get completely entrenched and just stay defensive.
Through years of posting on a few forums, I have some personal rules that seem to work well (not all of them apply to this thread): - never post when I'm feeling angry; keep emotions out of it and wait until I am feeling objective. I feel this is similar to not expressing emotions when driving a car. - think carefully before even posting. For example, sometimes I will start to write a post, and think again about whether I am making a positive contribution, decide I am not, and cancel the post. - never return a (perceived) insult with another insult. Instead "rise above", ignore insults and stick to the facts. You will gain respect and the intent of other person will be judged by others. - don't make guesses about the intent or reasons behind what the person said. This is too speculative. Best to stick to with what they actually said. You can also ask for more details about why they reached some conclusion, and then you learn about their reasoning (instead of guessing). - don't reference past behavior or past interactions with the other poster. People are already aware of this and will judge them accordingly if it is relevant. Plus this gives them some respect and a chance to recover from past mistakes. - try to be constructive and find some value in what the person said, even if you disagree with some parts of it. This will encourage them to also interact constructively. They may have other useful things to add, and they may also come to understand mistakes they may have made.
Thanks for your interesting threads. Some of the posts were a little painful to read, but that is improving now, and the basis of the threads are interesting.
Hi michiganboy, a bit of advice if I may. Next time you purchase a raw proof seated coin, send it in for grading first. After you've done so, and received the grade, THEN start a post with the raw pics as well as the grade. Take some time to explain your thinking about the coin before you sent it in, then reflect on how it actually went and what you learned. In this way you will be adding to the forum, educating others, and showing some maturity. In some cases you may be proud to report that a coin graded. In others you'll show that you've learned what many others have before you as a hard lesson.
This style of posting borderline genuine proof coins with marginal pictures, then becoming combative and then apologizing is starting to wear on other members, as evidenced in this thread.
I am not posting this to start the flames back up, but to show the colors. I bought 2 coins with the muddy dark blue color from a vest pocket dealer raw, both did not grade do to AT. I was young and they looked so good, I couldnt resist. When I say young I was only collecting for less than 6 months. To make a long story short I again see this dealer at the Summer FUN show and ask to see some of his coins. He opened his brief case and had at least 50 seated and bust coins with the exact same color and patterns on them, all raw. Now they could have been legit he was a gentleman with some years under his belt, but the telling point was no dealers bought any of the stuff that he showed them.
So, I made the determination that I needed to learn more before I bought the coins raw with the color. I still have not gotten to that point, but I am working on it. The pics below show the electric blue toning that TDN referred to and that I now look for. I have not seen this color on a coin that has not been graded by a TPG, the muddy dark blue, I see occasionally in a holder but most I see raw.
This coin is PCGS Proof 63 and I am happy to have it in my collection.
Gary
EDIT: I just looked at the OPs first post on my lap top and the colors look pretty good. On my iphone they looked alot darker.
The sellers pics are interesting, reason being is the darker blue ring and grey look of the coin. In hand the blue toning does not show up unless held at the right angle , otherwise it just looks like my photos, also coin is not grey in appearance at all. I could take more photos if anyone is interested.
I'd like to see more photos. I like the OP coin but it is one of those coins that often earns the AT designation. That being said, Lord knows I've seen many similarly toned coins of all types in TPG holders. It's one of those coins, IMO, that as long as it gets the "Genuine" designation, I'd be satisfied. It can always be cracked out and resubmitted on a day where the graders are in a better (or more liberal) mood.
There's still a huge gap here in knowledge if you keep seeing PF64's and winding up with 61's and lower or even no grades. I've focused on seated coins since the mid-1970's and the days of finding Proof 64's at 61 prices has been gone for decades. For every one of those you might stumble across, there will be multiple losers that will either cancel out the winners or tie up your money for lengthy periods. Been there, done that, etc. Be leery of your local dealers no matter how good a game they talk. It's very unusual to find one that is willing to dump off winners to their new customers....or even old customers for that matter. I have 2 dozen coin shops within a 50 mile radius of me and I can't think of one shop where I can let my guard down and would buy just on the advice or "expertise" of the owner. TDN is offering sound advice. It's either pay your dues today or pay them later. But you end up paying in the end. If I were recommending a path to a novice seated collector I'd tell them to study hard for a year before venturing into the unc/pf coin area. That means putting in hundreds if not a thousand hours of research and grading practice before spending $1,000+ per coin. And to do this properly you'd have to get involved with players on the national scene because the local knowledge is typically lacking.
RR, thanks for the advice I didn't get this at a dealer, paid $1356. I still am studing as much as my time can allow me,. but unfortunitly doing that on a national level as you recommend is impossible with my job and family status right now. There the I still want to buy coins part, and don't find a lot I like about other series. Right now a PR53 is selling on the bay with a bid at $1650 so I feel I can get my money out of the coin. I'm trying to learn don't get me wrong but for me the only way to see alot of coins is online or to just staight up purchase them. I have one local show I go to every year and a few in surrounding areas I could go to just haven't made it yet.
This is a great thread for all to learn about older proofs, the '72 dollar looks to be 58-61 from the range of photographs, in my mind all grades below 70 are net grades, there are a lot of ways to get there, in this case, the coin has been lightly cleaned and probably, later, dipped, and has retoned, it is impossible to tell from pictures or anyway else exactly how it toned but has a signature that is able to be accelerated, may be market acceptable per PCGS binary opinion; in the market the MA opinion (for raw coins) has more of a range than black/white yes/no of a pcgs slab. If for resale rather than a collection, what happens at PCGS will determine the value, as I said I think it will come back in a PR61 holder but could imagine genuine/questionable, would need to see it in hand to give a better opinion edit: if you take more pics, tilt it a couple of ways in a strong point source light like a tensor lamp, don't try to maximise eye appeal, try to give a good reflection off the mirrors, thanks
Thanks Baley for your opinion, I was not trying to maximize eye appeal with pictures but show as much as I could. My photo equipment is a canon powershot and I'm not a photographer. I don't know what a tensor light is?
<< <i>RR, thanks for the advice I didn't get this at a dealer, paid $1356. I still am studing as much as my time can allow me,. but unfortunitly doing that on a national level as you recommend is impossible with my job and family status right now. There the I still want to buy coins part, and don't find a lot I like about other series. Right now a PR53 is selling on the bay with a bid at $1650 so I feel I can get my money out of the coin. I'm trying to learn don't get me wrong but for me the only way to see alot of coins is online or to just staight up purchase them. I have one local show I go to every year and a few in surrounding areas I could go to just haven't made it yet. >>
One can do this on a "national" level by seeking out dealers within your area that compete successfully at that level. And those dealers or collectors don't necessarily have to be experts in 19th century type coins. Many of those long timers have seen enough of all the various denominations, types, and metals to have an excellent working knowledge in all areas. Ebay is basically just another local dealers....and lots of them. Most are not worth the time to deal with. And as others have mentioned trying to assess surfaces on proof coins by photo alone is nearly impossible. At least with a mint state coin assessing luster via photos is a tad easier. Fwiw the enlarged photos on the Heritage auction archives are an excellent source for reviewing surfaces up closely on circulated to gem coinage. Still, that won't help you much buying on Ebay where the photos for the most part of totally lacking and in many cases purposely so. Trying to pick winners on Ebay is not easy considering that this is one of the last avenues for frustrated sellers to dump their unwanted and marginal merchandise. I won't even waste my time anymore trying to do this.
<< <i>Sent in my last raw proofs this came back PR63. >>
Great. I thought this coin would grade, and you have more than doubled your money. >>
I agree, that this outcome is great, but he hasn't doubled his money (Certainly NOT on a PR-61). He has merely offset the losses on all his other coins that were assigned Genuine designations. This is comparable to the pony players, who announce their once-in-a-lifetime trifecta hit, while conveniently ignoring all of the also ran losers. Whatever. There is always room for learning, which has nothing to do with gambling successes or failures.
<< <i>Sent in my last raw proofs this came back PR63. >>
Great. I thought this coin would grade, and you have more than doubled your money. >>
I agree, that this outcome is great, but he hasn't doubled his money. He has merely offset the losses on all his other coins that were assigned Genuine designations. This is comparable to the pony players, who announce their once-in-a-lifetime trifecta hit, while conveniently ignoring all of the also ran losers. Whatever. There is always room for learning, which has nothing to do with gambling successes or failures. >>
Apparently his 4 Genuine coins have regraded PR61 to PR63.
Comments
Will it grade? Maybe. I never buy coins from images. Images never tell the whole story about a coin. Either I see them in hand and someone I trust (who knows more than I do) physically sees them, and we both like them, or else two people I trust (who know more than I do) see them in hand and both give me a thumbs up. Otherwise, I don't buy the coin. I have never been stuck with a bad coin using this system in all of the years I have been collecting.
You find out how good an eye you have when it comes to selling your coins. Word to the wise - if your coins aren't nice for the grade and can't easily flipped by a dealer, you won't get offers with considering right now.
A PCGS or NGC holder is a form of insurance policy on coins whose buyers believe are worth insuring. To me, a $1,000 plus coin that is raw is raw for a reason. A $1,000 plus coin is worth more when it comes with an "insurance policy." Spending this kind of money without an insurance policy -- unless you're in the EAC world -- is like walking a tightrope without a safety net. I wouldn't spent more than a few hundred dollars on a raw coin, with a possible, but very rare, exception of EAC material
For reasons above, coupled with what I collect, I have never bought anything from e-bay and never will. I've been collecting coins since the 60s & remember the "bad old days." Just because someone makes money buying and selling coins on occasion doesn't mean he knows what he is doing. Much money in numismatics is made by the "bigger fool" theory.
I believe TDN has put together the finest known set of Trade $s, and has owned some of the highest graded Seated and Early Dollars out there. In doing so, he has passed on many coins that 99% of us could not afford. He knows these coins. When he speaks about these coins, I listen.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Edited to add I did not want this to become a some spectacle, just wanted to share my newp sorry to those involved.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>Here's a question for the bunch: Why would anyone go to the trouble of artificially toning a coin that has significant intrinsic value already? >>
Based on the original seller images posted this example has been molested...
So the toning may very well be secondary and is suspicious to some as the progression has been retarded due to the impaired surfaces.
<< <i>But wouldn't discriminating collectors see that the toning is artificial, thereby cutting a lot of potential buyers out of the mix? >>
Coins like this aren't aimed at buyers that are discriminating collectors.
Great job, I am glad you apologized to both TDN and abit...Now maybe you can move on and hopefully all will forget this
as a post that went bad. At least, ask around at the show for opinions from some top buyer/sellers of this series, so that you
can get a feel for the info provided today. Hold no grudges as life is too short.
Good luck.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<< <i>I said your minor coins didn't look like proofs - which they did not in the images that you posted.
When you bottom fish, sometimes you get lucky - but more often than not, you get what you pay for. In this instance, it looks like a decent coin that may or may not be market acceptable for the toning. >>
Have to agree with my pal here!
Even if it does end up in a genuine holder, you're not going to get hurt badly, if at all. That coin will probably bring $1500+ on eBay in a genuine holder. A dealer would probably offer about half that price in a genuine holder; so, don't be shocked if you get what seem like lowball offers at a show.
Keep learning and trying. Don't get frustrated or lash out when people are critical or less than tactful. You're going to outlive most everyone on this board and will have the last laugh.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>I edited out some of my snarky comments, not to hide them but because they we're out of frustation. Some can still be read in Quoted comments, but otherwise I'm just generaly saying I got offended and acted as such. >>
MB - thanks for the PM with the apology for bringing me up in this thread. No hard feelings at all. I am glad that you PMd me, and that you seem to be realizing that your posting style has been a bit conforntational.
Some folks just blaze away here for a while and usually end up dropping off the forum. I am glad to see you want to re-enage differently.
I, for one, am going to completely reset my view of you, and will look at all of your posts going forward without any thought to past threads. I wish you well in your collecting.
merse
Good job on having the self-awareness to realize that something was going wrong, and to make your apologies!
Being capable of making that reversal is something that not everyone can do - some people will get completely entrenched and just stay defensive.
Through years of posting on a few forums, I have some personal rules that seem to work well (not all of them apply to this thread):
- never post when I'm feeling angry; keep emotions out of it and wait until I am feeling objective.
I feel this is similar to not expressing emotions when driving a car.
- think carefully before even posting. For example, sometimes I will start to write a post, and think again about whether I am making a positive
contribution, decide I am not, and cancel the post.
- never return a (perceived) insult with another insult. Instead "rise above", ignore insults and stick to the facts.
You will gain respect and the intent of other person will be judged by others.
- don't make guesses about the intent or reasons behind what the person said. This is too speculative.
Best to stick to with what they actually said. You can also ask for more details about why they reached some conclusion,
and then you learn about their reasoning (instead of guessing).
- don't reference past behavior or past interactions with the other poster. People are already aware of this and will judge them accordingly if it is relevant.
Plus this gives them some respect and a chance to recover from past mistakes.
- try to be constructive and find some value in what the person said, even if you disagree with some parts of it.
This will encourage them to also interact constructively.
They may have other useful things to add, and they may also come to understand mistakes they may have made.
Thanks for your interesting threads. Some of the posts were a little painful to read, but that is improving now, and the basis of the threads are interesting.
This style of posting borderline genuine proof coins with marginal pictures, then becoming combative and then apologizing is starting to wear on other members, as evidenced in this thread.
So, I made the determination that I needed to learn more before I bought the coins raw with the color. I still have not gotten to that point, but I am working on it. The pics below show the electric blue toning that TDN referred to and that I now look for. I have not seen this color on a coin that has not been graded by a TPG, the muddy dark blue, I see occasionally in a holder but most I see raw.
This coin is PCGS Proof 63 and I am happy to have it in my collection.
Gary
EDIT: I just looked at the OPs first post on my lap top and the colors look pretty good. On my iphone they looked alot darker.
type2,CCHunter.
For Dizzyfox here are some photos sorry they are not quaility but I'm working with a Canon power shot.
type2,CCHunter.
days of finding Proof 64's at 61 prices has been gone for decades. For every one of those you might stumble across, there will be multiple losers that will either cancel out the winners
or tie up your money for lengthy periods. Been there, done that, etc. Be leery of your local dealers no matter how good a game they talk. It's very unusual to find one that is willing
to dump off winners to their new customers....or even old customers for that matter. I have 2 dozen coin shops within a 50 mile radius of me and I can't think of one shop where I can
let my guard down and would buy just on the advice or "expertise" of the owner. TDN is offering sound advice. It's either pay your dues today or pay them later. But you end up
paying in the end. If I were recommending a path to a novice seated collector I'd tell them to study hard for a year before venturing into the unc/pf coin area. That means putting in
hundreds if not a thousand hours of research and grading practice before spending $1,000+ per coin. And to do this properly you'd have to get involved with players on the national
scene because the local knowledge is typically lacking.
type2,CCHunter.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>RR, thanks for the advice I didn't get this at a dealer, paid $1356. I still am studing as much as my time can allow me,. but unfortunitly doing that on a national level as you recommend is impossible with my job and family status right now. There the I still want to buy coins part, and don't find a lot I like about other series. Right now a PR53 is selling on the bay with a bid at $1650 so I feel I can get my money out of the coin. I'm trying to learn don't get me wrong but for me the only way to see alot of coins is online or to just staight up purchase them. I have one local show I go to every year and a few in surrounding areas I could go to just haven't made it yet. >>
One can do this on a "national" level by seeking out dealers within your area that compete successfully at that level. And those dealers or collectors don't necessarily have to be
experts in 19th century type coins. Many of those long timers have seen enough of all the various denominations, types, and metals to have an excellent working knowledge in all areas.
Ebay is basically just another local dealers....and lots of them. Most are not worth the time to deal with. And as others have mentioned trying to assess surfaces on proof coins by
photo alone is nearly impossible. At least with a mint state coin assessing luster via photos is a tad easier. Fwiw the enlarged photos on the Heritage auction archives are an excellent
source for reviewing surfaces up closely on circulated to gem coinage. Still, that won't help you much buying on Ebay where the photos for the most part of totally lacking and in many
cases purposely so. Trying to pick winners on Ebay is not easy considering that this is one of the last avenues for frustrated sellers to dump their unwanted and marginal merchandise.
I won't even waste my time anymore trying to do this.
type2,CCHunter.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Congrats.
Keep developing your eye.
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>Just read all of the previous comments. Didn't realize it got so heated. But again, nice get for AU money.
Congrats.
Keep developing your eye. >>
X2 great job/score MB
<< <i>Sent in my last raw proofs this came back PR63. >>
Great. I thought this coin would grade, and you have more than doubled your money.
<< <i>
<< <i>Sent in my last raw proofs this came back PR63. >>
Great. I thought this coin would grade, and you have more than doubled your money. >>
I agree, that this outcome is great, but he hasn't doubled his money (Certainly NOT on a PR-61). He has merely offset the losses on all his other coins that were assigned Genuine designations. This is comparable to the pony players, who announce their once-in-a-lifetime trifecta hit, while conveniently ignoring all of the also ran losers. Whatever. There is always room for learning, which has nothing to do with gambling successes or failures.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.american-legacy-coins.com
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Sent in my last raw proofs this came back PR63. >>
Great. I thought this coin would grade, and you have more than doubled your money. >>
I agree, that this outcome is great, but he hasn't doubled his money. He has merely offset the losses on all his other coins that were assigned Genuine designations. This is comparable to the pony players, who announce their once-in-a-lifetime trifecta hit, while conveniently ignoring all of the also ran losers. Whatever. There is always room for learning, which has nothing to do with gambling successes or failures. >>
Apparently his 4 Genuine coins have regraded PR61 to PR63.
type2,CCHunter.
<< <i>Here they are finally on the shared orders page here. >>
Did you do anything to the coins before resubmitting?
<< <i>Here they are finally on the shared orders page here. >>
Or here:
here
Looks like the submission turned out pretty well. Shows how hard it can be to determine via photos.