<< <i>and this is one of the main reasons why DC should have minted any of these.......because they were made, mint emplyees received them and then were asked to return them. >>
Did you mean to say "should," or "should not"?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>The 1964-D peace dollar is like the Loch Ness monster, Big Foot, and the Abominable Snowman---Some people want it to exist but until there's documented proof, it don't exist. >>
Some people desperately want it to not exist, for whatever strange reason. Since you cannot prove a negative, you cannot say that it does not exist. >>
I think it would be nice if they did exist. I also think it would be nice if the stories were attributed and/or verifiable. Putting some names to the stories would be a big step forward IMO.
<< <i>This reminds me of J. Cline's account of the 1931 Standing Liberty Quarter(s). Someone claims to have seen / handled one, but the person now cannot be located. In an odd sort of way, it reminds me of the "Richard Gere Legend." >>
They're in his butt? >>
Can I get bammed for laughing at this?
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>and this is one of the main reasons why DC should have minted any of these.......because they were made, mint emplyees received them and then were asked to return them. >>
It seems like no one is on record saying these were distributed to Mint employees so that story may be a myth as well.
However, there is a named Mint employee who stated the exchange story may have been mistakenly attributed to an exchange program for the then-new Kennedy halves. I don't recall his name but I believe it was mentioned in The Numismatist article on the 1964-D Peace dollar a while back (August 2004?). >>
I am on record as saying that they were distributed to Mint employees, based upon a face-to-face conversation that I had with a former Mint employee who was there when it happened.
The conversation included the statement that the coins were recalled the following day under threat of firing for any employee who did not return the coins. Why would they make such threats to temporarilly recover 1964-D halves which were soon to be common?
Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>and this is one of the main reasons why DC should have minted any of these.......because they were made, mint emplyees received them and then were asked to return them. >>
It seems like no one is on record saying these were distributed to Mint employees so that story may be a myth as well.
However, there is a named Mint employee who stated the exchange story may have been mistakenly attributed to an exchange program for the then-new Kennedy halves. I don't recall his name but I believe it was mentioned in The Numismatist article on the 1964-D Peace dollar a while back (August 2004?). >>
I am on record as saying that they were distributed to Mint employees, based upon a face-to-face conversation that I had with a former Mint employee who was there when it happened. >>
I appreciate that and your story does add to the lore; however, you are not a participant / witness to the event nor an official of the Mint speaking on their behalf. Additionally, I believe you mentioned you did not get the name of the Mint employee you spoke with so his story cannot be attributed or verified.
I do think it would have been very fortuitous if you got his name or had a way to reach him.
<< <i>Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
I'm pretty sure I read a quote from the Director of the Mint that all the 64-D dollars were melted.
<< <i>I am on record as saying that they were distributed to Mint employees, based upon a face-to-face conversation that I had with a former Mint employee who was there when it happened.
The conversation included the statement that the coins were recalled the following day under threat of firing for any employee who did not return the coins. Why would they make such threats to temporarilly recover 1964-D halves which were soon to be common?
Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
The recollection of the Mint employee who started the myth about employees being able to buy the 1964-D Peace dollars is faulty, in my opinion.
What really happened was that Mint employees were allowed to buy the brand-new 1964-D Kennedy half dollars, but not the 1964-D Peace Dollars (in 1965).
False Memory Syndrome has led to a morphing of the original facts. That is my take on it, anyway.
<< <i>Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
I'm pretty sure I read a quote from the Director of the Mint that all the 64-D dollars were melted.
Didn't two of them turn up later? >>
A few Philadelphia test strikes were reportedly destroyed in the early 1970s.
This Treasury Statement (above) debunks the theory that employees would have been able to buy the coins from the Mint cashier. This US Treasury statement is the only concrete evidence to go on, and it claims that none of the coins reached the cashier.
The last sentence in the mint release is the most telling: "Should anyone have such trial Mint-struck pieces in his possession..."
If they were all accounted for, there would be no need to add this language. Most likely a couple got through.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
<< <i>The last sentence in the mint release is the most telling: "Should anyone have such trial Mint-struck pieces in his possession..."
If they were all accounted for, there would be no need to add this language. Most likely a couple got through. >>
I'm not sure how telling the language is as it is useful to cover any situation where coins may have escaped destruction, irrespective of the likelihood of that happening. It could just as easily be a 'just-in-case' clause vs. a 'we think some are out there' clause.
<< <i>This reminds me of J. Cline's account of the 1931 Standing Liberty Quarter(s). Someone claims to have seen / handled one, but the person now cannot be located. In an odd sort of way, it reminds me of the "Richard Gere Legend." >>
They're in his butt? >>
Can I get bammed for laughing at this?
MJ >>
Let's connect the dots. A guy has a 1931 SLQ. He dies. I'd better stop there.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I am on record as saying that they were distributed to Mint employees, based upon a face-to-face conversation that I had with a former Mint employee who was there when it happened.
The conversation included the statement that the coins were recalled the following day under threat of firing for any employee who did not return the coins. Why would they make such threats to temporarilly recover 1964-D halves which were soon to be common?
Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
The recollection of the Mint employee who started the myth about employees being able to buy the 1964-D Peace dollars is faulty, in my opinion.
What really happened was that Mint employees were allowed to buy the brand-new 1964-D Kennedy half dollars, but not the 1964-D Peace Dollars (in 1965).
False Memory Syndrome has led to a morphing of the original facts. That is my take on it, anyway. >>
The Mint employee that I spoke with did not "start a myth" as you so conveniently phrase it. He confirmed reports that I had heard from others in the hobby.
After I published an account of this conversation I received a letter from Dan Brown, a prominent coin dealer in Denver in the 1960's and then retired, telling me that the Superintendent of the Denver Mint at the time had told him that the Mint had indeed sold 1964 silver dollars to employees, but that they had gotten them all back. Was Dan Brown "starting a myth?"
Financial interest can also lead to the morphing of facts, just as the bureaucratic tendency to CYA can lead to the morphing of facts.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
According to RWB in a previous thread, all the key information provided by former Denver Mint employee Michael Lantz could be independently verified while the same cannot be said for Dan Brown's story. Michael Lantz's statements and Dan Brown's letter seem to be contradictory.
1) << Former Denver Mint employee Michael Lantz discussed these [1964-D Peace dollars] in a Coin World article a couple of years ago. He was present when the coins were struck and can provide details about the location of the press room, types of presses used, etc. He also answered questions about them at the ANA in Denver. Mr. Lantz also believes that the story about employees being able to buy 2 of the new dollars is actually a transference of what was permitted for the new Kennedy halves. He said no one was allowed to purchase, trade, exchange or otherwise acquire any of the 1964-D peace dollars. He also said that several (exact quantity not specified) were sent to the Director in Washington, but he does not know what happened to these. >>
2) << Mr. Lantz was interviewed for the Peace dollar book, and reviewed the chapter for accuracy. All of the key information he provided could be independently verified. >>
3) << << Does this mean the Dan Brown / Fern Miller story is a dead end? >> No. It just means that no one has been able to corroborate the story. >>
Mr. Lantz, as a former Mint employee, has a vested interest in denying the story. Unfortunately, we have no way of corroborating his version of history either.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Mr. Lantz, as a former Mint employee, has a vested interest in denying the story. >>
If this is your reasoning, how would you explain that the sources for the employee sale version of events are also former Mint employees?
1) With Mr. Lantz, we have a former Mint employee who was there and gave a detailed description of events.
2) With your ANA Headquarters encounter, we have an unknown former Mint employee who gave a description of events.
3) With Dan Brown's letter, we have a unconfirmed report from a former Mint employee, Fern Miller.
In all 3 situations, former Mint employees are involved; however, in one, the person is known and his version of events has been verified. In the others, the identity of the Mint employee is unknown or the statement cannot be confirmed.
<< <i>Unfortunately, we have no way of corroborating his version of history either. >>
RWB stated the key information provided by Mr. Lantz could be independently verified. Until RWB says otherwise, I'm assuming the non-distribution to employees is a key piece of information.
Mark Feld's view of the situation seems reasonable:
<< <i>It seems that Mint employees could not have removed/kept them legally. If that is the case, the remaining window of legality might be if someone of importance had been given an example. >>
I think there are some 1964-D Peace Dollars out there. I can't believe LBJ would not have obtained one, also wouldn't the director of the Mint and others, possibly have one.
There are many stories from reliable people who have seen one. Just like there were stories that there were more 1933 double eagles out there. How can we scoff at the stories about the existence of the 1964-D dollars, when the stories about the 1933 double eagles, which were similarly scoffed at, were proven to be true when the Langbord coins were discovered?
As Capt Henway stated, Mr. Lantz has a vested interest in his version of the story. What is the vested interest of the person who told Capt Henway about the 1964-D dollar distribution and recall? What is the vested interest of Dan Brown with his similar story?
Edit to add: For anyone who remembers this far back, the Mint initially denied that the 1960 Small Date and 1960 Large Date cents had different size dates. Obviously, that statement was not true.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>I think there are some 1964-D Peace Dollars out there. I can't believe LBJ would not have obtained one, also wouldn't the director of the Mint and others, possibly have one. >>
I think this is the likeliest explanation for outstanding pieces. However, if pieces were distributed to government officials, would they still be owned by the government and subject to return?
<< <i>There are many stories from reliable people who have seen one. Just like there were stories that there were more 1933 double eagles out there. How can we scoff at the stories about the existence of the 1964-D dollars, when the stories about the 1933 double eagles, which were similarly scoffed at, were proven to be true when the Langbord coins were discovered? >>
A key difference here is that known examples of the 1933 DEs have been traced to Switt as far back as the 1940s/1930s so he was already known to possess these coins, in some undetermined quantity.
<< <i>As Capt Henway stated, Mr. Lantz has a vested interest in his version of the story. What is the vested interest of the person who told Capt Henway about the 1964-D dollar distribution and recall? What is the vested interest of Dan Brown with his similar story? >>
Why do you think Mr. Lantz has a vested interest?
CaptHenway indicated he thought Mr. Lantz has a vested interest because he was a former Mint employee, however the ANA HQ visitor and Dan Brown stories are also recounted from former Mint employees.
I'm also not sure it matters if the ANA HQ visitor or Dan Brown have a vested interest since their version of events cannot be independently verified and are hearsay.
<< <i>Edit to add: For anyone who remembers this far back, the Mint initially denied that the 1960 Small Date and 1960 Large Date cents had different size dates. Obviously, that statement was not true. >>
It's perfectly acceptable for the situation to change in light of new facts. This is why I think it's admirable that PCGS offered to certify a 1964-D Peace dollar for free a while back.
<< <i>I think there are some 1964-D Peace Dollars out there. I can't believe LBJ would not have obtained one, also wouldn't the director of the Mint and others, possibly have one.
There are many stories from reliable people who have seen one. Just like there were stories that there were more 1933 double eagles out there. How can we scoff at the stories about the existence of the 1964-D dollars, when the stories about the 1933 double eagles, which were similarly scoffed at, were proven to be true when the Langbord coins were discovered?
As Capt Henway stated, Mr. Lantz has a vested interest in his version of the story. What is the vested interest of the person who told Capt Henway about the 1964-D dollar distribution and recall? What is the vested interest of Dan Brown with his similar story?
Edit to add: For anyone who remembers this far back, the Mint initially denied that the 1960 Small Date and 1960 Large Date cents had different size dates. Obviously, that statement was not true. >>
When I was working at Coin World, I received a letter from Dr. Goldman telling me that the Mint never made mistakes on Proofs.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Here's an interesting Treasury Press Release about them:
(It's not dated, but it appears to be from after August, but before December, 1964)
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
The two sides of the letter I mentioned are at the bottom of my most recent response (above).
My assisant Kathy said that it had to be 'under 50 KB or less".
Any help so that we can make any scan of coins or letters part of my post would be helpful!
Thanks - Our email, if you want to direct, is:
Fred@FredWeinberg.com
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I personally believe that genuine 1964-d Peace dollars exist, but have never examined one.
The basis comes from Colorado.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
<< <i>There are many stories from reliable people who have seen one. >>
Actually, I have never heard of a story from a reliable person who has seen one. Usually, it is a reliable person that knows someone who has seen one. Who are some reliable people who have reported seeing these coins?
Copy and paste these two URLs directly into your thread and you should see the enlarged versions as I have posted them. You will need to add a ] to the end of each one, otherwise they won't show up as documents. You may want to delete the two jpg URLs as they are a bit hard to read.
<< <i>Here's an interesting Treasury Press Release about them:
(It's not dated, but it appears to be from after August, but before December, 1964) >>
Thanks for the press release Fred. It's interesting to note that the press release appears to be issues before the coins were struck and states the Mint is not allowed to distribute them.
1) << It has not yet been determined when the Mint will start the manufacture of these new coins. >>
2) << The Mint cannot sell these dollars to anyone, nor can the Mint arrange for persons to receive them. Distribution will be made from commercial banks only. >>
<< <i>Here's an interesting Treasury Press Release about them:
(It's not dated, but it appears to be from after August, but before December, 1964) >>
Thanks for the press release Fred. It's interesting to note that the press release appears to be issues before the coins were struck and states the Mint is not allowed to distribute them.
1) << It has not yet been determined when the Mint will start the manufacture of these new coins. >>
2) << The Mint cannot sell these dollars to anyone, nor can the Mint arrange for persons to receive them. Distribution will be made from commercial banks only. >> >>
Nor did the Denver Mint "distribute" 1963-D Franklin halves. But if an employee wanted to buy one, I am sure it could have been arranged.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Would it have been possible that a mint employee actually spent one of the coins on the day they received them and before the next day when they turned them back in? How could they fire someone if they did that, it was a legal transaction thus making the coin legal to own, what do you think?
<< <i>Here's an interesting Treasury Press Release about them:
(It's not dated, but it appears to be from after August, but before December, 1964) >>
Thanks for the press release Fred. It's interesting to note that the press release appears to be issues before the coins were struck and states the Mint is not allowed to distribute them.
1) << It has not yet been determined when the Mint will start the manufacture of these new coins. >>
2) << The Mint cannot sell these dollars to anyone, nor can the Mint arrange for persons to receive them. Distribution will be made from commercial banks only. >> >>
Nor did the Denver Mint "distribute" 1963-D Franklin halves. But if an employee wanted to buy one, I am sure it could have been arranged. >>
It would be interesting if employees could receive Franklins from the Mint after the Treasury put out a press release saying the Mint could not distribute them. Do we know if this is the case?
We were able to post the Treasury Letter in full size, both pages.....
Thanks for your help/suggestions!
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
<< <i>Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
I'm pretty sure I read a quote from the Director of the Mint that all the 64-D dollars were melted.
Didn't two of them turn up later? >>
A few Philadelphia test strikes were reportedly destroyed in the early 1970s.
This Treasury Statement (above) debunks the theory that employees would have been able to buy the coins from the Mint cashier. This US Treasury statement is the only concrete evidence to go on, and it claims that none of the coins reached the cashier. >>
Because, after all, if the government states something as fact - it's fact!
<< <i>Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
I'm pretty sure I read a quote from the Director of the Mint that all the 64-D dollars were melted.
Didn't two of them turn up later? >>
A few Philadelphia test strikes were reportedly destroyed in the early 1970s.
This Treasury Statement (above) debunks the theory that employees would have been able to buy the coins from the Mint cashier. This US Treasury statement is the only concrete evidence to go on, and it claims that none of the coins reached the cashier. >>
I'm going with this. I'm sure if someone did some how get one of these it'll NEVER be brought into the light of day as it does belong & is the United states property and anyone having one will be in extremly hot water....Joe
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
<< <i>This Treasury Statement (above) debunks the theory that employees would have been able to buy the coins from the Mint cashier. This US Treasury statement is the only concrete evidence to go on, and it claims that none of the coins reached the cashier. >>
I'm going with this. I'm sure if someone did some how get one of these it'll NEVER be brought into the light of day as it does belong & is the United states property and anyone having one will be in extremly hot water... >>
Unless the coin was received by a dignitary such as President Johnson, the Mint Director, the Engraver, etc. OR unless the coin is held somewhere in a foreign country where the U. S. Treasury can't grab it.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
The reason no reliable person anyone knows has passed along a sighting of a 64-D peace dollar is that a truly reliable person would not want to see a possible govt investigation transpire from themselves to the owner. Hence such a reliable person would/should keep their mouth shut.
I agree with FW's view that there is at least one out there. Rather than 5% odds I'd say the odds are 95% one still exists. If the Langbord coins don't ever get released there's little to no chance of ever seeing a 64-D surface.
<< <i>Because, after all, if the government states something as fact - it's fact! >>
Governments don't always tell the truth.
But in this case, the governmen't's information is at least from a traceable source, unlike the heresay nth party stories.
I grew up in the Denver area, making the rounds to all the coin shops over the years. I'm old enough to have visited Dan Brown's shop a few times. I've heard all the stories. The facts supporting the existence of surviving 1964-D Peace Dollars are very thin, while the facts pointing to their non-existence are much stronger. I'm going with those facts for now.
A couple people I've talked to claimed to have seen one in or around 1967. But I'm very skeptical and there is no evidence to support their claim. However, if they were in fact actually shown something dated 1964, there is no way to prove that it wasn't a vintage fantasy concotion (counterfeit) of some sort.
In other words, just because somebody saw a "1964" Peace Dollar in 1966, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was real.
<< <i>The reason no reliable person anyone knows has passed along a sighting of a 64-D peace dollar is that a truly reliable person would not want to see a possible govt investigation transpire from themselves to the owner. Hence such a reliable person would/should keep their mouth shut. >>
This is my thinking as well which is why I was curious to know who RichieURich was referring to when he wrote "There are many stories from reliable people who have seen one." I'm very interested to learn of such stories as they could more firmly establish the existence of these pieces.
Regarding a possible government investigation, if the owner was a government official who was formally presented with the piece, I think there would be less of an issue. However, I can understand the concern if the provenance isn't as clear.
FWIW, I never saw a counterfeit or altered 1964-D dollar back when I was at ANACS.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
<< <i>and this is one of the main reasons why DC should have minted any of these.......because they were made, mint emplyees received them and then were asked to return them. >>
Did you mean to say "should," or "should not"?
<< <i>
<< <i>The 1964-D peace dollar is like the Loch Ness monster, Big Foot, and the Abominable Snowman---Some people want it to exist but until there's documented proof, it don't exist. >>
Some people desperately want it to not exist, for whatever strange reason. Since you cannot prove a negative, you cannot say that it does not exist. >>
I think it would be nice if they did exist. I also think it would be nice if the stories were attributed and/or verifiable. Putting some names to the stories would be a big step forward IMO.
<< <i>
<< <i>This reminds me of J. Cline's account of the 1931 Standing Liberty Quarter(s). Someone claims to have seen / handled one, but the person now cannot be located. In an odd sort of way, it reminds me of the "Richard Gere Legend." >>
They're in his butt?
Can I get bammed for laughing at this?
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>and this is one of the main reasons why DC should have minted any of these.......because they were made, mint emplyees received them and then were asked to return them. >>
It seems like no one is on record saying these were distributed to Mint employees so that story may be a myth as well.
However, there is a named Mint employee who stated the exchange story may have been mistakenly attributed to an exchange program for the then-new Kennedy halves. I don't recall his name but I believe it was mentioned in The Numismatist article on the 1964-D Peace dollar a while back (August 2004?). >>
I am on record as saying that they were distributed to Mint employees, based upon a face-to-face conversation that I had with a former Mint employee who was there when it happened.
The conversation included the statement that the coins were recalled the following day under threat of firing for any employee who did not return the coins. Why would they make such threats to temporarilly recover 1964-D halves which were soon to be common?
Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>and this is one of the main reasons why DC should have minted any of these.......because they were made, mint emplyees received them and then were asked to return them. >>
It seems like no one is on record saying these were distributed to Mint employees so that story may be a myth as well.
However, there is a named Mint employee who stated the exchange story may have been mistakenly attributed to an exchange program for the then-new Kennedy halves. I don't recall his name but I believe it was mentioned in The Numismatist article on the 1964-D Peace dollar a while back (August 2004?). >>
I am on record as saying that they were distributed to Mint employees, based upon a face-to-face conversation that I had with a former Mint employee who was there when it happened. >>
I appreciate that and your story does add to the lore; however, you are not a participant / witness to the event nor an official of the Mint speaking on their behalf. Additionally, I believe you mentioned you did not get the name of the Mint employee you spoke with so his story cannot be attributed or verified.
I do think it would have been very fortuitous if you got his name or had a way to reach him.
<< <i>Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
I'm pretty sure I read a quote from the Director of the Mint that all the 64-D dollars were melted.
Didn't two of them turn up later?
<< <i>I am on record as saying that they were distributed to Mint employees, based upon a face-to-face conversation that I had with a former Mint employee who was there when it happened.
The conversation included the statement that the coins were recalled the following day under threat of firing for any employee who did not return the coins. Why would they make such threats to temporarilly recover 1964-D halves which were soon to be common?
Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
The recollection of the Mint employee who started the myth about employees being able to buy the 1964-D Peace dollars is faulty, in my opinion.
What really happened was that Mint employees were allowed to buy the brand-new 1964-D Kennedy half dollars, but not the 1964-D Peace Dollars (in 1965).
False Memory Syndrome has led to a morphing of the original facts. That is my take on it, anyway.
<< <i>
<< <i>Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
I'm pretty sure I read a quote from the Director of the Mint that all the 64-D dollars were melted.
Didn't two of them turn up later? >>
A few Philadelphia test strikes were reportedly destroyed in the early 1970s.
This Treasury Statement (above) debunks the theory that employees would have been able to buy the coins from the Mint cashier. This US Treasury statement is the only concrete evidence to go on, and it claims that none of the coins reached the cashier.
If they were all accounted for, there would be no need to add this language. Most likely a couple got through.
<< <i>The last sentence in the mint release is the most telling: "Should anyone have such trial Mint-struck pieces in his possession..."
If they were all accounted for, there would be no need to add this language. Most likely a couple got through. >>
I'm not sure how telling the language is as it is useful to cover any situation where coins may have escaped destruction, irrespective of the likelihood of that happening. It could just as easily be a 'just-in-case' clause vs. a 'we think some are out there' clause.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This reminds me of J. Cline's account of the 1931 Standing Liberty Quarter(s). Someone claims to have seen / handled one, but the person now cannot be located. In an odd sort of way, it reminds me of the "Richard Gere Legend." >>
They're in his butt?
Can I get bammed for laughing at this?
MJ >>
Let's connect the dots. A guy has a 1931 SLQ. He dies. I'd better stop there.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>
<< <i>There are no known 1964-D Peace Dollars. It seems like the stories about their existence are all unverifiable. >>
Just like all those stories about 1933 $20's still existing were all unverifiable. >>
And just how many stories were there of ten existing in the safe deposit box of who was the source of all known specimens (minus the SI's two)?
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>
<< <i>I am on record as saying that they were distributed to Mint employees, based upon a face-to-face conversation that I had with a former Mint employee who was there when it happened.
The conversation included the statement that the coins were recalled the following day under threat of firing for any employee who did not return the coins. Why would they make such threats to temporarilly recover 1964-D halves which were soon to be common?
Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
The recollection of the Mint employee who started the myth about employees being able to buy the 1964-D Peace dollars is faulty, in my opinion.
What really happened was that Mint employees were allowed to buy the brand-new 1964-D Kennedy half dollars, but not the 1964-D Peace Dollars (in 1965).
False Memory Syndrome has led to a morphing of the original facts. That is my take on it, anyway. >>
The Mint employee that I spoke with did not "start a myth" as you so conveniently phrase it. He confirmed reports that I had heard from others in the hobby.
After I published an account of this conversation I received a letter from Dan Brown, a prominent coin dealer in Denver in the 1960's and then retired, telling me that the Superintendent of the Denver Mint at the time had told him that the Mint had indeed sold 1964 silver dollars to employees, but that they had gotten them all back. Was Dan Brown "starting a myth?"
Financial interest can also lead to the morphing of facts, just as the bureaucratic tendency to CYA can lead to the morphing of facts.
1) << Former Denver Mint employee Michael Lantz discussed these [1964-D Peace dollars] in a Coin World article a couple of years ago. He was present when the coins were struck and can provide details about the location of the press room, types of presses used, etc. He also answered questions about them at the ANA in Denver. Mr. Lantz also believes that the story about employees being able to buy 2 of the new dollars is actually a transference of what was permitted for the new Kennedy halves. He said no one was allowed to purchase, trade, exchange or otherwise acquire any of the 1964-D peace dollars. He also said that several (exact quantity not specified) were sent to the Director in Washington, but he does not know what happened to these. >>
2) << Mr. Lantz was interviewed for the Peace dollar book, and reviewed the chapter for accuracy. All of the key information he provided could be independently verified. >>
3) << << Does this mean the Dan Brown / Fern Miller story is a dead end? >> No. It just means that no one has been able to corroborate the story. >>
<< <i>Mr. Lantz, as a former Mint employee, has a vested interest in denying the story. >>
If this is your reasoning, how would you explain that the sources for the employee sale version of events are also former Mint employees?
1) With Mr. Lantz, we have a former Mint employee who was there and gave a detailed description of events.
2) With your ANA Headquarters encounter, we have an unknown former Mint employee who gave a description of events.
3) With Dan Brown's letter, we have a unconfirmed report from a former Mint employee, Fern Miller.
In all 3 situations, former Mint employees are involved; however, in one, the person is known and his version of events has been verified. In the others, the identity of the Mint employee is unknown or the statement cannot be confirmed.
<< <i>Unfortunately, we have no way of corroborating his version of history either. >>
RWB stated the key information provided by Mr. Lantz could be independently verified. Until RWB says otherwise, I'm assuming the non-distribution to employees is a key piece of information.
<< <i>It seems that Mint employees could not have removed/kept them legally. If that is the case, the remaining window of legality might be if someone of importance had been given an example. >>
There are many stories from reliable people who have seen one. Just like there were stories that there were more 1933 double eagles out there. How can we scoff at the stories about the existence of the 1964-D dollars, when the stories about the 1933 double eagles, which were similarly scoffed at, were proven to be true when the Langbord coins were discovered?
As Capt Henway stated, Mr. Lantz has a vested interest in his version of the story. What is the vested interest of the person who told Capt Henway about the 1964-D dollar distribution and recall? What is the vested interest of Dan Brown with his similar story?
Edit to add: For anyone who remembers this far back, the Mint initially denied that the 1960 Small Date and 1960 Large Date cents had different size dates. Obviously, that statement was not true.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
<< <i>I think there are some 1964-D Peace Dollars out there. I can't believe LBJ would not have obtained one, also wouldn't the director of the Mint and others, possibly have one. >>
I think this is the likeliest explanation for outstanding pieces. However, if pieces were distributed to government officials, would they still be owned by the government and subject to return?
<< <i>There are many stories from reliable people who have seen one. Just like there were stories that there were more 1933 double eagles out there. How can we scoff at the stories about the existence of the 1964-D dollars, when the stories about the 1933 double eagles, which were similarly scoffed at, were proven to be true when the Langbord coins were discovered? >>
A key difference here is that known examples of the 1933 DEs have been traced to Switt as far back as the 1940s/1930s so he was already known to possess these coins, in some undetermined quantity.
<< <i>As Capt Henway stated, Mr. Lantz has a vested interest in his version of the story. What is the vested interest of the person who told Capt Henway about the 1964-D dollar distribution and recall? What is the vested interest of Dan Brown with his similar story? >>
Why do you think Mr. Lantz has a vested interest?
CaptHenway indicated he thought Mr. Lantz has a vested interest because he was a former Mint employee, however the ANA HQ visitor and Dan Brown stories are also recounted from former Mint employees.
I'm also not sure it matters if the ANA HQ visitor or Dan Brown have a vested interest since their version of events cannot be independently verified and are hearsay.
<< <i>Edit to add: For anyone who remembers this far back, the Mint initially denied that the 1960 Small Date and 1960 Large Date cents had different size dates. Obviously, that statement was not true. >>
It's perfectly acceptable for the situation to change in light of new facts. This is why I think it's admirable that PCGS offered to certify a 1964-D Peace dollar for free a while back.
<< <i>I think there are some 1964-D Peace Dollars out there. I can't believe LBJ would not have obtained one, also wouldn't the director of the Mint and others, possibly have one.
There are many stories from reliable people who have seen one. Just like there were stories that there were more 1933 double eagles out there. How can we scoff at the stories about the existence of the 1964-D dollars, when the stories about the 1933 double eagles, which were similarly scoffed at, were proven to be true when the Langbord coins were discovered?
As Capt Henway stated, Mr. Lantz has a vested interest in his version of the story. What is the vested interest of the person who told Capt Henway about the 1964-D dollar distribution and recall? What is the vested interest of Dan Brown with his similar story?
Edit to add: For anyone who remembers this far back, the Mint initially denied that the 1960 Small Date and 1960 Large Date cents had different size dates. Obviously, that statement was not true. >>
When I was working at Coin World, I received a letter from Dr. Goldman telling me that the Mint never made mistakes on Proofs.
Press Release about them:
(It's not dated, but it appears to
be from after August, but before
December, 1964)
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
are at the bottom of my most recent
response (above).
My assisant Kathy said that it had to
be 'under 50 KB or less".
Any help so that we can make any
scan of coins or letters part of my
post would be helpful!
Thanks - Our email, if you want to direct, is:
Fred@FredWeinberg.com
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
The basis comes from Colorado.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>There are many stories from reliable people who have seen one. >>
Actually, I have never heard of a story from a reliable person who has seen one. Usually, it is a reliable person that knows someone who has seen one. Who are some reliable people who have reported seeing these coins?
<< <i>The two sides of the letter I mentioned
are at the bottom of my most recent
response (above).
My assisant Kathy said that it had to
be 'under 50 KB or less".
Any help so that we can make any
scan of coins or letters part of my
post would be helpful!
Thanks - Our email, if you want to direct, is:
Fred@FredWeinberg.com >>
Copy and paste these two URLs directly into your thread and you should see the enlarged versions as I have posted them. You will need to add a ] to the end of each one, otherwise they won't show up as documents. You may want to delete the two jpg URLs as they are a bit hard to read.
[IMG]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg846/scaled.php?server=846&filename=1964peacedollartreasury.jpg&res=landing[/IMG
[IMG]http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg513/scaled.php?server=513&filename=1964peacedollartreasury.jpg&res=landing[/IMG
<< <i>Here's an interesting Treasury
Press Release about them:
(It's not dated, but it appears to
be from after August, but before
December, 1964) >>
Thanks for the press release Fred. It's interesting to note that the press release appears to be issues before the coins were struck and states the Mint is not allowed to distribute them.
1) << It has not yet been determined when the Mint will start the manufacture of these new coins. >>
2) << The Mint cannot sell these dollars to anyone, nor can the Mint arrange for persons to receive them. Distribution will be made from commercial banks only. >>
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's an interesting Treasury
Press Release about them:
(It's not dated, but it appears to
be from after August, but before
December, 1964) >>
Thanks for the press release Fred. It's interesting to note that the press release appears to be issues before the coins were struck and states the Mint is not allowed to distribute them.
1) << It has not yet been determined when the Mint will start the manufacture of these new coins. >>
2) << The Mint cannot sell these dollars to anyone, nor can the Mint arrange for persons to receive them. Distribution will be made from commercial banks only. >> >>
Nor did the Denver Mint "distribute" 1963-D Franklin halves. But if an employee wanted to buy one, I am sure it could have been arranged.
Or he gave them to Steven Spielberg on the set.
The Mysterious Egyptian Magic Coin
Coins in Movies
Coins on Television
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Here's an interesting Treasury
Press Release about them:
(It's not dated, but it appears to
be from after August, but before
December, 1964) >>
Thanks for the press release Fred. It's interesting to note that the press release appears to be issues before the coins were struck and states the Mint is not allowed to distribute them.
1) << It has not yet been determined when the Mint will start the manufacture of these new coins. >>
2) << The Mint cannot sell these dollars to anyone, nor can the Mint arrange for persons to receive them. Distribution will be made from commercial banks only. >> >>
Nor did the Denver Mint "distribute" 1963-D Franklin halves. But if an employee wanted to buy one, I am sure it could have been arranged. >>
It would be interesting if employees could receive Franklins from the Mint after the Treasury put out a press release saying the Mint could not distribute them. Do we know if this is the case?
We were able to post the Treasury Letter in full
size, both pages.....
Thanks for your help/suggestions!
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
I'm pretty sure I read a quote from the Director of the Mint that all the 64-D dollars were melted.
Didn't two of them turn up later? >>
A few Philadelphia test strikes were reportedly destroyed in the early 1970s.
This Treasury Statement (above) debunks the theory that employees would have been able to buy the coins from the Mint cashier. This US Treasury statement is the only concrete evidence to go on, and it claims that none of the coins reached the cashier. >>
Because, after all, if the government states something as fact - it's fact!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Having been lied to by Mint officials various times over the years, I am disinclined to believe their explanations and denials over the 1964-D Peace dollars. >>
I'm pretty sure I read a quote from the Director of the Mint that all the 64-D dollars were melted.
Didn't two of them turn up later? >>
A few Philadelphia test strikes were reportedly destroyed in the early 1970s.
This Treasury Statement (above) debunks the theory that employees would have been able to buy the coins from the Mint cashier. This US Treasury statement is the only concrete evidence to go on, and it claims that none of the coins reached the cashier. >>
I'm going with this. I'm sure if someone did some how get one of these it'll NEVER be brought into the light of day as it does belong & is the United states property and anyone having one will be in extremly hot water....Joe
<< <i>This Treasury Statement (above) debunks the theory that employees would have been able to buy the coins from the Mint cashier. This US Treasury statement is the only concrete evidence to go on, and it claims that none of the coins reached the cashier. >>
I'm going with this. I'm sure if someone did some how get one of these it'll NEVER be brought into the light of day as it does belong & is the United states property and anyone having one will be in extremly hot water... >>
Unless the coin was received by a dignitary such as President Johnson, the Mint Director, the Engraver, etc. OR unless the coin is held somewhere in a foreign country where the U. S. Treasury can't grab it.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
govt investigation transpire from themselves to the owner. Hence such a reliable person would/should keep their mouth shut.
I agree with FW's view that there is at least one out there. Rather than 5% odds I'd say the odds are 95% one still exists. If the Langbord coins don't ever get
released there's little to no chance of ever seeing a 64-D surface.
<< <i>Because, after all, if the government states something as fact - it's fact! >>
You mean like when the Director of the Mint claims that all of the dollars have been melted when some still remained in existence? That kind of fact?
<< <i>Because, after all, if the government states something as fact - it's fact! >>
Governments don't always tell the truth.
But in this case, the governmen't's information is at least from a traceable source, unlike the heresay nth party stories.
I grew up in the Denver area, making the rounds to all the coin shops over the years. I'm old enough to have visited Dan Brown's shop a few times. I've heard all the stories. The facts supporting the existence of surviving 1964-D Peace Dollars are very thin, while the facts pointing to their non-existence are much stronger. I'm going with those facts for now.
A couple people I've talked to claimed to have seen one in or around 1967. But I'm very skeptical and there is no evidence to support their claim. However, if they were in fact actually shown something dated 1964, there is no way to prove that it wasn't a vintage fantasy concotion (counterfeit) of some sort.
In other words, just because somebody saw a "1964" Peace Dollar in 1966, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was real.
<< <i>The reason no reliable person anyone knows has passed along a sighting of a 64-D peace dollar is that a truly reliable person would not want to see a possible
govt investigation transpire from themselves to the owner. Hence such a reliable person would/should keep their mouth shut. >>
This is my thinking as well which is why I was curious to know who RichieURich was referring to when he wrote "There are many stories from reliable people who have seen one." I'm very interested to learn of such stories as they could more firmly establish the existence of these pieces.
Regarding a possible government investigation, if the owner was a government official who was formally presented with the piece, I think there would be less of an issue. However, I can understand the concern if the provenance isn't as clear.