Photographing Colorfully Toned Coins -- and Accuracy of PCGS TrueView Photos (Case Studies)
WingedLiberty1957
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I have been a collector of colorfully toned coins for a bit over 1.5 years and have learned a lot about this interesting sub-field of numismatics in that time. During this time, my primary coin photographer has been Phil at PCGS TrueView. Over the past few weeks, I have been amazed to read (on various posts by a few people on a few different coin forums), how some collectors think that PCGS TrueVeiw photos are "juiced" "oversaturated", "unrealistic", or "enhanced".
I have to say that I have probably had over 200 TrueView photos taken for me over the past 18 months and I have never had any photos taken that did not capture the look of the coin -- most typically seen at the optimal viewing angle -- defining "optimal" as the viewing angle that "max's out" the coins color. All of the PCGS TrueView photos I have received, were totally accurate and completely captured the look of the coin at the optimal viewing angle.
One fact that perhaps some collectors might overlook is that a single photo does not (and can not) capture the full spectrum of looks that a colorfully toned coin might show. For that you would need perhaps 5 to 10 photos of a coin (or perhaps a video would be better showing a nearly infinite spread of viewing and lighting angles). So when I see people post that they do NOT find TrueView photos "representative" of a coin, my jaw drops.
Yesterday, it began to dawn on me that perhaps many of the people that think that PCGS TrueViews are not "realistic" don't realize how DIFFERENT colorfully toned coins can look at various view angles. As you tip and tilt a toned coin under the light, the colors and look CHANGES, sometimes drastically. So when a photographer is hired to produce single photo (as is the case for PCGS TrueView), the photographer has to CHOOSE which of the coins various looks to capture in the image.
Most of us "color" lovers typically WANT the photographer to max out the color (even if a coin only shows that color at one special viewing and lighting angle). So this kind of photographing philosophy (maxing the color) might be just assumed by most photographers (as sort of a default) as to what the owner of a colorfully toned coin wants. I have to say, if you don't want that, say something!
Finally, I wanted to add that if you ever SELL a colorfully toned coin, you should always provide a number of photographs showing the various "looks" of the coin from different angles. This is not only good from the point of disclosure, but also helps mitigate returns from disappointed buyers who bought based on a single photo.
If you ever BUY a colorfully toned coin, based on a single photo, realize that the photo shown probably is a maximum color view of the coin and the coin could look more muted from other view angles (esp from straight on). So in this case, an air-tight return policy is in order so you can examine the hundreds of "looks" of the coin in-hand before you decide to keep it.
I have to say that I have probably had over 200 TrueView photos taken for me over the past 18 months and I have never had any photos taken that did not capture the look of the coin -- most typically seen at the optimal viewing angle -- defining "optimal" as the viewing angle that "max's out" the coins color. All of the PCGS TrueView photos I have received, were totally accurate and completely captured the look of the coin at the optimal viewing angle.
One fact that perhaps some collectors might overlook is that a single photo does not (and can not) capture the full spectrum of looks that a colorfully toned coin might show. For that you would need perhaps 5 to 10 photos of a coin (or perhaps a video would be better showing a nearly infinite spread of viewing and lighting angles). So when I see people post that they do NOT find TrueView photos "representative" of a coin, my jaw drops.
Yesterday, it began to dawn on me that perhaps many of the people that think that PCGS TrueViews are not "realistic" don't realize how DIFFERENT colorfully toned coins can look at various view angles. As you tip and tilt a toned coin under the light, the colors and look CHANGES, sometimes drastically. So when a photographer is hired to produce single photo (as is the case for PCGS TrueView), the photographer has to CHOOSE which of the coins various looks to capture in the image.
Most of us "color" lovers typically WANT the photographer to max out the color (even if a coin only shows that color at one special viewing and lighting angle). So this kind of photographing philosophy (maxing the color) might be just assumed by most photographers (as sort of a default) as to what the owner of a colorfully toned coin wants. I have to say, if you don't want that, say something!
Finally, I wanted to add that if you ever SELL a colorfully toned coin, you should always provide a number of photographs showing the various "looks" of the coin from different angles. This is not only good from the point of disclosure, but also helps mitigate returns from disappointed buyers who bought based on a single photo.
If you ever BUY a colorfully toned coin, based on a single photo, realize that the photo shown probably is a maximum color view of the coin and the coin could look more muted from other view angles (esp from straight on). So in this case, an air-tight return policy is in order so you can examine the hundreds of "looks" of the coin in-hand before you decide to keep it.
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So I did a little experiment to shoot some images of this coin with my iPhone camera to see if I could easily capture the "look" that Phil captured. Note that my iPhone photos were shot in indirect sunlight and I promise you these are all COMPLETELY RAW photos NOT TOUCHED at all with any software packages.
It's very clear from this raw comparison photo that the PCGS TrueView photo looks 100% like the coin in hand.
It's not juiced nor is it over-saturated -- it's 100% accurate.
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Here is a good example of an iPhone photo I took of a wildly colorful 1953 Proof Lincoln compared with a PCGS Trueview. My iPhone image was shot (while the coin was still in the NGC slab), just before I sent this coin off to PCGS for crossing. I shot this in indirect sunlight with my iphone THROUGH the slab plastic. This image is RAW and not enhanced in any way (which you can clearly see by the normal color of the NGC label). Below that is Phil's PCGS TrueView photo of the same coin.
You can clearly see the colors and overall look of the coin images are nearly identical. Phil of PCGS TrueView completely nailed this coin with a superbly accurate image.
You be the judge!
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Next is a photo of an extrememly colorful 1957-D MS Lincoln when it was still in the NGC slab.
It's clear to see that the NGC slab photo is clean, raw, and unenhanced by the "normal" (typical) color of the NGC Label.
Once again, Phil nailed it.
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One last case study of comparing my iphone photos with PCGS TrueView photos. This is an ultra-rare Proof 1975-S Lincoln showing tremendous deep blue-purple color.
My iPhone photo of this coin, completely raw and unenhanced, in indirect sunlight vs. a PCGS TrueView of same coin.
You be the judge!
I would be curious to see others perform and post similar photogrpahic experiments -- and I am always open to hearing input and experiences from others.
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I am IMPRESSED as HECK at the talent of Phil at PCGS Trueview.
My experience is that PCGS TrueView photos are NOT ENHANCED ... nor OVERSATURATED ... nor JUICED
The proof is in the pudding (and my case studies above)
I would be curious to get input from others.
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after being on these forums for several years...i just don't let nothing said here bother me
but i have grown to truly respect some here too and do value them
as to collecting toners and imaging of them...i like the in hand coupled with optimal light angle to display such beauty
personally...1st and foremost in coins is...eye appeal
some like um red or white...right on
i like mine laced with natures colors...right on for me
here's the only 2 images that need be for my recent 1937 proof lincoln
the in hand captured here
the right angle pop of colors here
"put a fork in me as i'm done here"
On the other hand, I've had a number of true views come back lately of coins that are not brightly colored proofs and I haven't been happy with the results for 2 reasons.
1. The coins appear to be photographed under the same bright lights the proof coins are. I don't want my original looking coin with a few hundred years of layers of dirt and grime to look like a DCAM PROOF. I want it to look like it would in my hand, under normal, less intense lighting. Phil must have some flexibility on lighting and maybe he assumed I wanted the look he chose instead of the more natural, "real world" lighting. I know he can't read my mind, but when you call it "true view", the coin should look how it does in hand, at least especially original looking non proof coins, IMO.
2. All of the coins I've had true viewed lately show a magenta/brownish cast. Even one from this past week. I've given feedback on this but it doesn't seem fixed. It shows up less on shiny proof coins so this probably isn't relevant to this post, but worth mentioning as a part of this discussion.
(I can show examples later, don't have access to comparison pics right now)
I would absolutely love the option to specify my preference when submitting coins for Trueview, even if it was just 2-3 options, what I'd like to get out of my coin. Something like: Do you prefer your coin showcase:
a) Color/Luster
b) Mirrored surface
b) Natural Lighting/Originality
Or something like this, I'm sure others can come up with better options than me.
Overall though, you've done a great job of showing how brightly colored proof coins actually do look like the amazing true views that are shown here periodically. Well done.
<< <i>
I would absolutely love the option to specify my preference when submitting coins for Trueview, even if it was just 2-3 options, what I'd like to get out of my coin. Something like: Do you prefer your coin showcase:
a) Color/Luster
b) Mirrored surface
b) Natural Lighting/Originality
Or something like this, I'm sure others can come up with better options than me.
>>
Original Dan ... NOW THAT is a brilliant idea!
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Even where I think a coin's image is good, oftentimes the coin appears different when I actually see it. A good example is that ANR's auction images of silver coins always had a light bluish tint to them. I've found that I often don't get a feel for an AU silver, or BN Unc. copper's luster until I actually see it. I am only addressing coins whose images are made in good faith by someone skilled in doing so.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
I just got this MS66RD 1909 VDB DDO FS-1102 attributed at PCGS recently... here's the TrueView pic which really exaggerates the minor spotting and makes the coin look a little bit too red and cartoonish:
Here's the PCGS SecurePlus images of the same coin taken at the same trip to PCGS which looks much more like the coin does in hand:
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Phil has the upper hand as he gets to shoot it raw.
It's your prerogative to acquire photos of your colorful coins that are enhanced to show hidden colors revealed only under unusual conditions. Go for it. But I want mine to look like the coins collectors see when they hold them. There should be no surprise when the coin arrives in the mail. It should look like the auction images.
Phil does a wonderful job on many, many coins. And we've seen some images that are off. Phil has even spoken of this. One of the nice things about Trueviews and his work is that he wants to satisfy owners and will make adjustments according to their wishes. Great customer service.
The dealers I shoot for have little interest in popping color because it misrepresents coins and disappoints. Far better to show the coin as it will commonly be viewed, flaws and all.
Lance.
<< <i>Phil uses a Cannon, known for plastic-looking oversaturated colors out of the box. Nothing wrong with it, per-se, but I prefer a more natural representation as seen by my own two eyes. >>
If using a cannon that could explain some of the fire red colors in the coins, but I am sure his Canon can be set to not oversaturate from the get go. Firing the coins from a cannon may be different all together.
Todd serves a valuable purpose in the coin photography world, shooting coins in the slab is pretty important for selling a coin online. I've met Todd a few times, and have worked with him on a couple things as well. So we respect each other's work, and threads like this make us feel kind of uncomfortable. We both serve different purposes in coin photography, so please don't turn this into a Todd vs Phil thing.
Radiant Collection: Numismatics and Exonumia of the Atomic Age.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3232
(my point was that you BOTH absolutely nailed the images of the coin in question ... 100% accrurate)
I only said good things about the both of you (and actually highly recommended you both)
I think Tood did a fantastic job with my NGC coins that for various reasons, I can't or don't want to cross.
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Or another example. The glare would be missing since Phil doesn't have to contend with the slab. Being a toner lover, I would prefer the neon color that is natural and visible when flashing the coin in front of your eyes rather than the straight down still look.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
This (video) media really captures the in-hand look.
You really get a good feel from this how hard it is to pick one particular view angle to image!
Movie of 1975-S Proof Lincoln (various view angles)
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That said, I wish I could get the black backgrounds...the white ones are too distractingly bright and take my eyes away from the coins
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>I was curious if I could post a short movie (*.MOV) of my 1975-S Proof Lincoln with dark blue and purple toning.
This (video) media really captures the in-hand look.
Movie of 1975-S Proof Lincoln (various view angles) >>
Cool!!
Take it out of the slab and see if it makes a difference.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
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<< <i>Robec, That 1961 is one amazing coin ... so many different looks! >>
Both are currently at PCGS for grading and crossing.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
neat lil video too...
It is like one bit of a broken hologram. I think you can get some of this across but you will sacrifice some other qualities.
Eric
http://macrocoins.com
Post processing software is very powerful, and if images are shot raw the data is there to be retrieved and manipulated.
Lance.
<< <i>I doubt axial lighting is used. It's a corner-case method with more effort and downsides than advantage.
Post processing software is very powerful, and if images are shot raw the data is there to be retrieved and manipulated.
Lance. >>
Same boat here. Raw coins don't need axial.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
ALL of my iphone comparison photos were COMPLETELY RAW and UNTOUCHED by any software ... and they ALL look like the TrueView photos.
Look closely at them and decide for yourself.
In other words ... GREAT JOB PCGS TrueView!
100% Accurate.
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We will see more video clips which show the coin rotated in the light
Perhaps a better way (also easier) to show color and luster
We will still want quality stills to show the surfaces
I have done a couple of experiments rotating the coin in the light in an HD Video. It's hard to do through a macro lens because any movement that isn't vector-smooth looks herky-jerky and pretty awful. I'd need some sort of contraption that smoothly and safely moves the coin about.
Radiant Collection: Numismatics and Exonumia of the Atomic Age.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3232
<< <i>The whole point of all the case studies I posted on page 1 of this thread is that it's VERY CLEAR that TrueView photos are not post processed to the point that they diverge from the coin in-hand.
ALL of my iphone comparison photos were COMPLETELY RAW and UNTOUCHED by any software ... and they ALL look like the TrueView photos.
Look closely at them and decide for yourself.
In other words ... GREAT JOB PCGS TrueView!
100% Accurate. >>
Hopefully you don't believe your iPhone doesn't juice your photos? Or that other cameras don't juice the photos even before they leave the camera? There is a wide range of adjustment made by cameras of all types for saturation, levels, etc as part of the image processing routines.
That said, I'm much more convinced after seeing the in-hand photos that the level of juicing is minimimum.
<< <i><< I doubt axial lighting is used. It's a corner-case method with more effort and downsides than advantage.
Post processing software is very powerful, and if images are shot raw the data is there to be retrieved and manipulated.
Lance. >>
Same boat here. Raw coins don't need axial. >>
I don't like doing axial setups, but a lot of folks absolutely swear by them to bring out the color of deeply-toned coins, especially proofs. But I don't see why there would be a difference between raw and slabbed in terms of what the _coin_ needs. Additionally, axial lighting on slabs is extremely problematic because of the glare from the slab surface, so really only raw coins are suitable for the technique.
Looking closely at the coins the OP posted, it's clear that the 1886 Indian Cent was NOT axial. The surface reflection off the upper cheek are a giveaway that the lights were at an angle to the coin, and this picture doesn't have the "vibrance" seen with axial technique. The 1975-S Lincoln Cent also is clearly not axial, as evidenced by the non-uniformity of lighting around the rim and the shadow detail picked up in Lincoln's jacket. The 1955 and 1957-D have a better case for axial given their "axial vibrance" and their primary reflections off the flat surfaces of the coat and field, but there are also secondary reflections off the chin and brow that indicate an additional (non-axial) light source being used. So no matter what, even if Phil's using an axial setup for certain coins, he's also adding an extra light(s) for highlighting.
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>So far this week I've personally photographed over 1,300 coins, Kelso and Eddie have photographed several hundred more. I mean, even if I wanted to tweak and juice the photos I don't really have the time to do so.
I have done a couple of experiments rotating the coin in the light in an HD Video. It's hard to do through a macro lens because any movement that isn't vector-smooth looks herky-jerky and pretty awful. I'd need some sort of contraption that smoothly and safely moves the coin about. >>
Thanks for that!
How do you decide the background color?
http://macrocoins.com
Radiant Collection: Numismatics and Exonumia of the Atomic Age.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/3232
how about a photo of your setup?
<< <i>PCGS
how about a photo of your setup? >>
Too bad Charmy didn't include photos of Phil's den during her PCGS tour..... or maybe she just handed those off to Todd.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>
"Hopefully you don't believe your iPhone doesn't juice your photos? Or that other cameras don't juice the photos even before they leave the camera? There is a wide range of adjustment made by cameras of all types for saturation, levels, etc as part of the image processing routines. That said, I'm much more convinced after seeing the in-hand photos that the level of juicing is minimimum." - rmpsrpms
>>
rmpsrpms, just a quick note on this comment on your thoughts about "juicing that is internal to the camera". I have to admit ignorance on how my 2009 vintage iphone was designed, or if there are algorithms internally (and automatically) applied ... but I usually use the color of the NGC or PCGS label in the photo as a cross check. The NGC label is especially useful in my opinion since the gold color of that is very unique. I have to say that I dont see any sign of strange color enhancement either on the PCGS label or the NGC label (or when I take pictures of people and/or things) the colors always appear accurate and spot on. Plus don't forget that I can SEE the coin in my hand and I know what it looks like to my eyes, and my iPhone images match what my eyes see. In any case, I would find it very strange indeed if whatever internal algorithm is in Phil's (Canon, I think?) camera would match exactly my old 2009 vintage iPhone camera. In any case look at the label colors in my photos and tell me if you think the color balance is off (or wrong).
Probably more of an issue might be how colors are displayed on different monitors, I have seen differences between how images look on my iMac vs my LED display on my PC, however that issue disappears when you are A-B'ing images on the same monitor. In any case, I realize this is a complex issue, but an interesting one.
Steve, post your best MPL image. I am curious to see it!
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<< <i>
<< <i>PCGS
how about a photo of your setup? >>
Too bad Charmy didn't include photos of Phil's den during her PCGS tour..... or maybe she just handed those off to Todd.
No top secret den pics over here. Seeing a pic of anyones setup really doesn't disclose much. I can say that the PCGS setup and my setup are polar opposites in organization. There is so much junk around my setup I have to make rooms for coins.
1961 PR66 BN Lincoln Cent
Once again superb job by PCGS TrueView. Perhaps my iPhone photo shows the mirrors better, but the colors are spot on.
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1957-D MS66 RB Lincoln Cent
Once again ... spot on TrueView. The accuracy is really quite impressive.
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<< <i>PCGS
how about a photo of your setup? >>
The key to Phil's setup is the absence of plastic between the coin and the camera. He probably also doesn't have a bottle of PlastX and accompanying tattered rag that is probably rather flammable by the end of a shoot.
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I have included my glare ridden photo along with the sellers photo. For those not in love with color or what they perceive to be "juiced" TrueViews, I assume they would rather have a TrueView that more resembles the sellers photos. IMHO that defeats the purpose of photographing a colorful coin.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Color is very simular to the Cart wheeling of a large coin in that to attain the awesome effect you must have
the angle and light just right to achieve it's beauty. But a bright white coin will dispaly other characteristics
that gives the draw of Eye Appeal, that cart wheel is just an added effect. But on toned coins when you have
to view the coin with certain lighting or the correct angle to enjoy it qualities then it is not a coin I want in my
collection. After 30 years collecting toned coins I have mostly bought coins that I have held in hand before the
purchase. I have also bought many many from pictures off the internet and come away with some real dogs
because I did not understand the tricks to taking their pictures. To tell the truth if a pictured coin is angled
and has just the right amount of light to enhance it's colors then I am shy of buying it. The True View and other
Quality type pictures may not be juiced or whatever term you want to use but they are taken with just the right
angle and light so that the picture shows the best quality of the coin but a toned coin should have eye appeal
when viewed from all most any angle or light or atleast I feel so. Has anyone bought a Morgan or Peace from a pic
that showed nice colors and just awesome qualities and got it in hand to find that the coin looked like it had
been in a fire and was discolored and dark and just plain ugly? It's correct to say that you need many different
pics with different angles and light to make a decision about buying a toned coin especially if it's expensive.