<< <i>rmpsrpms, just a quick note on this comment on your thoughts about "juicing that is internal to the camera". I have to admit ignorance on how my 2009 vintage iphone was designed, or if there are algorithms internally (and automatically) applied ... but I usually use the color of the NGC or PCGS label in the photo as a cross check. The NGC label is especially useful in my opinion since the gold color of that is very unique. I have to say that I dont see any sign of strange color enhancement either on the PCGS label or the NGC label (or when I take pictures of people and/or things) the colors always appear accurate and spot on. Plus don't forget that I can SEE the coin in my hand and I know what it looks like to my eyes, and my iPhone images match what my eyes see. In any case, I would find is very strange indeed if whatever internal algorithm is in Phil's (Canon, I think?) camera would match exactly my old 2009 vintage iPhone camera. In any case look at the label colors in my photos and tell me if you think the color balance is off (or wrong).
Probably more of an issue might be how colors are displayed on different monitors, I have seen differences between how images look on my iMac vs my LED display on my PC, however that issue disappears when you are A-B'ing images on the same monitor. In any case, I realize this is a complex issue, but an interesting one. >>
It doesn't take a lot of saturation adjustment to take a coin image that is already "over the top" in color and take it too far. All cell phone cameras I've tested have a level of saturation similar to +3 or so on my Canon T2i. This doesn't make the coin look overly cartoonish but does emphasize color in a dramatic way. But the True Views you posted, along with realistic-looking in-hand photos, still make me believe that the True Views are a good representation of the in-hand look.
The monitor issue is the same since very few of us go to the trouble of calibrating our monitors, and modern monitors have a wide range of adjustments for saturation, gamma, brightness, sharpness, plus often a few more interesting adjustments that don't exist in the camera. If you have a "hot" monitor, and look at an "over the top" coin on it, it's going to appear very juiced.
PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:
I've noticed a difference between my laptop and desktop flat screen and yet both are calibrated. I can only imagine how juiced the images would look if I hadn't of done it.
<< <i>I have done a couple of experiments rotating the coin in the light in an HD Video. It's hard to do through a macro lens because any movement that isn't vector-smooth looks herky-jerky and pretty awful. I'd need some sort of contraption that smoothly and safely moves the coin about. >>
i still think making ".gif" are amazing just set up your camera snap snots separately with only adjusting your lights camera and coin stay unmoved then overlay your images using a .gif maker this is purely an example
everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see
<< <i>i still think making ".gif" are amazing just set up your camera snap snots separately with only adjusting your lights camera and coin stay unmoved then overlay your images using a .gif maker this is purely an example >>
Almost the same, but better in my opinion would be images that 'tilt' when you mouseover them to show a different angle. Then you could look at one angle for a bit, mouseover it and see another angle when you choose. I like the idea though.
the .gif i posted was just an example they can be displayed with control access...toggled for speed and stop is available the more layers seamed produces smoother transitioning best when you cascade up to the half point...then cascade in the reverse order i like them because still camera is upclose and pinpoint accurate
i wish i had the set-up with the camera but who knows...i may land a "you suck" and dive in to seeing just how amazing of .gif work i can do...
truly though...just an in-hand and proper angle color shot is all i need
everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see
LasVegasT, here is my try at an animated GIF image. Not very high res since it's based off screen captures from my Quicktime movie, but it does provide an accurate in hand look.
It's a nice way to post an movie-like animation inline on a web page. Good idea you had! Clearly video is the best way to convey the "in-hand look" of a toned coin over the internet.
<< <i>As I have said before, photos of a coin should look like the coin under normal lighting conditions, IMO. Even subtle toning can be greatly exaggerated with extreme angles and lighting, and look nothing like the coin.
It's your prerogative to acquire photos of your colorful coins that are enhanced to show hidden colors revealed only under unusual conditions. Go for it. But I want mine to look like the coins collectors see when they hold them. There should be no surprise when the coin arrives in the mail. It should look like the auction images.
Phil does a wonderful job on many, many coins. And we've seen some images that are off. Phil has even spoken of this. One of the nice things about Trueviews and his work is that he wants to satisfy owners and will make adjustments according to their wishes. Great customer service.
The dealers I shoot for have little interest in popping color because it misrepresents coins and disappoints. Far better to show the coin as it will commonly be viewed, flaws and all. Lance. >>
I slightly disagree. There's a difference between stretching to enhance the appearance of a coin through photography and lighting tricks, and simply shooting the coin at a slight angle so as to bring out the color. There's also a difference here between copper, silver, gold, etc when talking about colors and how coins tone and reflect light.
I mostly collect silver coins and the way silver tones, it often looks brownish or dark greenish in the toned areas, when photographed under indirect light. It's not as attractive when photographed this way. But with just a little bit of tilt to the coin to reflect the light, the coin can come alive and light up like a christmas tree. In these scenarios, especially when selling a coin like this, it's best to photograph the coin under both lighting scenarios, as others have mentioned.
Now when it comes to TrueViews, we have input from Phil that he's not doing any special tricks in post. My hunch is that he's just really really good and finding the right angles to bring out the best color. Of course, to your point, it's unlikely that a user who picks up a coin and puts it under light in their house will also find this optimum angle, so this falls into a sort of grey area.
"Of course, to your point, it's unlikely that a user who picks up a coin and puts it under light in their house will also find this optimum angle, so this falls into a sort of grey area."
<< <i>"Of course, to your point, it's unlikely that a user who picks up a coin and puts it under light in their house will also find this optimum angle, so this falls into a sort of grey area."
Exactly, and combined with monitor differences...
Have a great weekend, Eric >>
With many toned coins, I disagree. A lot of times, it is just slightly tilting the coin in the light...no "magic angles" or anything like that. I may not be in the same class of photographing coins as Phil or Mark Goodman, or some others, but I have taken enough to know that there MANY coins that just need that slight tilt in the light and you do pop the colors. I've enjoyed many toners this way. Probably less than 5% of the toners I have seen and tilted have had to have an "optimal angle" that is hard to find for the colors. Now, if you don't enjoy them this way, fine. That's one of the reasons that, in the past when I have sold some toned coins, I have tried to put at least 2 sets of photos if it had a different look when tilted.
Bochiman, You are 100% correct. I shot all the iphone images posted in this thread in my family room addition .... in INDIRECT SUNLIGHT ... that's about as "normal" and "typical" in terms of household lighting as you can get.
And in terms of using some severely skewed magical angle to shoot ... you can clearly see in my iPhone photos just how slight an angle was needed to match the look that Phil shot.
When you shoot a colorfully toned coin ... in a single image ... YOU HAVE TO PICK AN ANGLE to shoot ... People that say straight on is the only "right" angle are completely off base. Even their straight on angle is only ONE view ... and that does not capture all of the looks of these coins. Clearly to properly capture these coins you probably need about 5 shots per coin OR a video. Truth be told, I think only video's, like I posted earlier, tell the whole tale. That is as close to an in-hand examination look as you can get (IMHO).
In my video posted earlier, you can see the Purple Proof Lincoln shows it's purple color in ALL angles even straight on. So it's not like that coin looks copper then if you tip it to some special angle it turns purple. If you bought this coin, it would look purple from ANY ANGLE !!! Not just 1 angle. However the shade of purple CHANGES as you roll and tip the coin.
Can you imagine some of these so called "straight on view only" guys not tipping their un-toned coins in order to see if there is any cartwheel luster or hairlines from an old cleaning. Tipping coins is as NORMAL of a way of examining coins as you can get. And I am SURE all the PCGS graders tip and roll the coins they grade. It's the only way to get the full spectrum of views necessary to properly evaluate a coin.
<< <i>Can you imagine some of these non color guys not tipping their untoned coins in order to see if there is any cartwheel luster or hairlines from an old cleaning Tipping coins is as NORMAL of a way of examining coins as you can get >>
One of the points I like to emphasize is that if you want the "in-hand" look, you need to set up your lighting, angles, etc to mimic that look from the perspective of the camera. As the OP says, it's very normal to tip the coin all directions to see color, hairlines, and luster, and yet the camera can only pick up one combination of lighting and viewing angle at a time. The most common viewing situation is a single halogen lamp, with the coin in a slab or flip or holder. This is very limited and each combination of lighting and tilt gives only a "snapshot" of the coin. A challenge I give folks is to hold the coin and find the very best, favorite position of lighting and tilt, and then imagine that was a published photo instead of a live, in-hand view. The photo would be pretty disappointing! It would have dark shadows in some areas, and overly bright details in others. It may have reflections off the holder surface that obscure parts of the coin. In short, it would probably not be a very good photographic representation of the coin. It's the coin photographer's job to set up his camera and lights to give as balanced a representation as possible so that in a single image the coin is presented in its "best light" to show color, surface details, and luster such that the viewer can assess the coin. This often involves multiple lights with very specific placements that would be difficult to duplicate when viewing the coin in-hand.
PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:
The same could be said about black and white cameo proofs, or black and gold (if gold). The cameo shows up the same way as the color does in toners. Yet that look seems to be acceptable and more forgiving in TrueViews and photos. Approximately the same manipulating, tweaking or enhancing is applied. You can usually only see the cameo effect if the coin is tilted back and forth in your hands.
Thanks for bringing up the cameo portion. That is the first place I learned about angles and looks and lighting....before I even got into toners that much. I couldn't figure out why some folks posted pictures of completely black and white franklins and they looked NOTHING like that to me....then I discovered lighting and angling and, VOILA, I could see it too.
<< <i>Can you imagine some of these non color guys not tipping their untoned coins in order to see if there is any cartwheel luster or hairlines from an old cleaning Tipping coins is as NORMAL of a way of examining coins as you can get. >>
WL, apparently you are missing the point.
No one is saying collectors don't enjoy viewing their coins at angles, in different lighting, etc. Of course they do. The question is what image do you present when displaying or selling a coin? It should be the one that most accurately represents the coin in the way most people will normally view it. And let's assume only one photo is able to be shown for each side, as is common with auction catalogs, dealer websites, etc.
I see no harm in presenting additional images to show off corner-case lighting and angles.
the last few posts have been great. that's been my point for days. shooting a coin at 1 angle is not wrong or deceptive ... it's not manipulation, nor lighting tricks, nor "enhancment", nor "juicing" etc ... it is what it is, the view at one particular angle.
And I have always been a proponent that if you sell a colorfully toned coin over the internet, you should ALWAYS provide 4 or 5 shots showing the various looks. If you don't do that the odds for a return are much higher since some buyers might not understand that it's a view at one particular angle -- other angles could be worse or BETTER! I think my video of my purple toned Lincoln Cent shows the stunning MIRRORS much better than the TrueView. Someone that bought that coin based just on the TrueView might think the coin was colorful but kind of matte -- when in fact it's got not only killer color, but killer mirrors.
After doing this thread, honestly I would probably shoot a video of any coin I wanted to sell over the internet.
There is a huge difference in how toning reacts to the lens and eye between MS toning and toning with associated with Proof and Proof Like coins.
You are correct in that most business strike toned coins has toning that can be seen at all angles and don't need to be twirled, wiggled or flashed back and forth. Unfortunately, proofs such as WL's Lincoln's don't allow that. They have several different views, any number of which can portray the coin in a way that represents the actual in hand look of the coin.
When you are taking a picture of a coin (or having one taken) for the purpose of looking at the coin in the best light that you can imagine it being in such as to be able to advantageously view the coin's most flattering aspects, you want a very different picture than what you should be showing a potential buyer. While the buyer wants the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, someone shooting a coin (or having it shot) for his own collection will not be as much concerned with "the whole truth." Brightly colored coins, especially proof copper, don't play nice with getting "the whole truth" in one shot.
<< <i>The same could be said about black and white cameo proofs, or black and gold (if gold). The cameo shows up the same way as the color does in toners. Yet that look seems to be acceptable and more forgiving in TrueViews and photos. Approximately the same manipulating, tweaking or enhancing is applied. You can usually only see the cameo effect if the coin is tilted back and forth in your hands.
WL, it was a great post then, and thank you for renewing it. My principal collection is IHC Proofs. I collect those with color and have completed my registry set (Paha Sapa Indians) recently. When I started that set I thought I would focus on RD and CAM coins. But then Rick Snow sold me this 1885 PR67BN:
Cannot seem to post the image from Photobucket nor can I copy and paste from my own files.......BIG problem with forum software.......
I cannot find RD and Cam coins that can compare. BN and some RB IHC proofs are far superior to RD and CAM IHC PR coins. And in may cases the are much more expensive due to the toning premium.
And I also thank you for your inspiration as well with your great set of toned Lincolns. Toned copper seems to be painted by God and never dipped by man. FWIW
WL, Funny you should post this thread today. Just minutes ago I published a Showcase set of Modern Toned coins all with Trueviews. I have been working on it for about 6 months and have one more coin to acquire.
Same here. And if you click the #2 (accidently like I did) to go to page two, it will pop up again. And clicking twice to cancel it out, you end up at the top/beginning of this page. Looks like CU needs to update their firewall security.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
This week I bought an 1899 Indian Cent Proof (PCGS PR65RB) from Andy at Angel Dees (one of my favorite dealers) -- and was so interested in the difference between Andy's photo and the PCGS TrueView that I couldn't wait to see the beast in hand. When the coin arrived and I looked at it in hand, I realized both photos were correct -- it's just 2 different lighting angles.
Linked below is a short movie I made of the coin tipping it into indirect sunlight (underneath a skylight) recorded with my iPhone. https://mindstar.com/cointalk_photos/IndianCent.MOV (13 MB, kind of big, sorry!)
This is a shorter and smaller GIF Animation i made of stills ... that I could post inline.
Note that the "popped color" is a bit darker (than the PCGS TrueView) in this inline animation due to me taking these animation photos in early morning sunrise lighting a few minutes ago. You can clearly see both Andy's darker red field (semi cameo) look ... as well as Phil's bright pink and blue popped color in the TrueVIew.
(The scratches are on the slab by the way!) Really the best way to depict a coin like this is with multiple photos from various angles.
Comments
Video of Wild Indigo Toned Lincoln Proof
A photo only gives a static view:
while a video shows an infinite number of view angles and shows exactly what the coin would look like if you examined it.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Here is another video of one of the most unusual toned Lincoln Proofs I own (PCGS PR67 RB):
Video of Crazy Yellow Toned Lincoln Proof
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
<< <i>rmpsrpms, just a quick note on this comment on your thoughts about "juicing that is internal to the camera". I have to admit ignorance on how my 2009 vintage iphone was designed, or if there are algorithms internally (and automatically) applied ... but I usually use the color of the NGC or PCGS label in the photo as a cross check. The NGC label is especially useful in my opinion since the gold color of that is very unique. I have to say that I dont see any sign of strange color enhancement either on the PCGS label or the NGC label (or when I take pictures of people and/or things) the colors always appear accurate and spot on. Plus don't forget that I can SEE the coin in my hand and I know what it looks like to my eyes, and my iPhone images match what my eyes see. In any case, I would find is very strange indeed if whatever internal algorithm is in Phil's (Canon, I think?) camera would match exactly my old 2009 vintage iPhone camera. In any case look at the label colors in my photos and tell me if you think the color balance is off (or wrong).
Probably more of an issue might be how colors are displayed on different monitors, I have seen differences between how images look on my iMac vs my LED display on my PC, however that issue disappears when you are A-B'ing images on the same monitor. In any case, I realize this is a complex issue, but an interesting one. >>
It doesn't take a lot of saturation adjustment to take a coin image that is already "over the top" in color and take it too far. All cell phone cameras I've tested have a level of saturation similar to +3 or so on my Canon T2i. This doesn't make the coin look overly cartoonish but does emphasize color in a dramatic way. But the True Views you posted, along with realistic-looking in-hand photos, still make me believe that the True Views are a good representation of the in-hand look.
The monitor issue is the same since very few of us go to the trouble of calibrating our monitors, and modern monitors have a wide range of adjustments for saturation, gamma, brightness, sharpness, plus often a few more interesting adjustments that don't exist in the camera. If you have a "hot" monitor, and look at an "over the top" coin on it, it's going to appear very juiced.
http://macrocoins.com
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>I have done a couple of experiments rotating the coin in the light in an HD Video. It's hard to do through a macro lens because any movement that isn't vector-smooth looks herky-jerky and pretty awful. I'd need some sort of contraption that smoothly and safely moves the coin about. >>
What about something similar to what HA uses?
just set up your camera
snap snots separately with only adjusting your lights
camera and coin stay unmoved
then overlay your images using a .gif maker
this is purely an example
It almost reminds me of the old FLASH tag that became hated over time.
I wonder if it wouldn't be as visually distracting if it looped for 10 cycles then stopped perhaps
Or if it had an on/off switch
Imagine a whole page of images that are "moving" ... would it be too much?
In any case, it's a cool idea and definitely addresses the issue of how to convey various "looks".
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Maybe we should talk about something less emotional. What do you think about the '64-D Carr Peace dollar? Fabulous, isn't it?
Lance.
<< <i>Nothing said here has changed my mind that images should represent the typical look of the coin.
Maybe we should talk about something less emotional. What do you think about the '64-D Carr Peace dollar? Fabulous, isn't it?
Lance. >>
I like those also.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
<< <i>i still think making ".gif" are amazing
just set up your camera
snap snots separately with only adjusting your lights
camera and coin stay unmoved
then overlay your images using a .gif maker
this is purely an example
Almost the same, but better in my opinion would be images that 'tilt' when you mouseover them to show a different angle. Then you could look at one angle for a bit, mouseover it and see another angle when you choose. I like the idea though.
they can be displayed with control access...toggled for speed and stop is available
the more layers seamed produces smoother transitioning
best when you cascade up to the half point...then cascade in the reverse order
i like them because still camera is upclose and pinpoint accurate
i wish i had the set-up with the camera but who knows...i may land a "you suck" and dive in to seeing just how amazing of .gif work i can do...
truly though...just an in-hand and proper angle color shot is all i need
It's a nice way to post an movie-like animation inline on a web page. Good idea you had! Clearly video is the best way to convey the "in-hand look" of a toned coin over the internet.
ANIMATION SHOWING IN HAND LOOK
TRUE VIEW IMAGE OF SAME COIN
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
<< <i>As I have said before, photos of a coin should look like the coin under normal lighting conditions, IMO. Even subtle toning can be greatly exaggerated with extreme angles and lighting, and look nothing like the coin.
It's your prerogative to acquire photos of your colorful coins that are enhanced to show hidden colors revealed only under unusual conditions. Go for it. But I want mine to look like the coins collectors see when they hold them. There should be no surprise when the coin arrives in the mail. It should look like the auction images.
Phil does a wonderful job on many, many coins. And we've seen some images that are off. Phil has even spoken of this. One of the nice things about Trueviews and his work is that he wants to satisfy owners and will make adjustments according to their wishes. Great customer service.
The dealers I shoot for have little interest in popping color because it misrepresents coins and disappoints. Far better to show the coin as it will commonly be viewed, flaws and all.
Lance. >>
I slightly disagree. There's a difference between stretching to enhance the appearance of a coin through photography and lighting tricks, and simply shooting the coin at a slight angle so as to bring out the color. There's also a difference here between copper, silver, gold, etc when talking about colors and how coins tone and reflect light.
I mostly collect silver coins and the way silver tones, it often looks brownish or dark greenish in the toned areas, when photographed under indirect light. It's not as attractive when photographed this way. But with just a little bit of tilt to the coin to reflect the light, the coin can come alive and light up like a christmas tree. In these scenarios, especially when selling a coin like this, it's best to photograph the coin under both lighting scenarios, as others have mentioned.
Now when it comes to TrueViews, we have input from Phil that he's not doing any special tricks in post. My hunch is that he's just really really good and finding the right angles to bring out the best color. Of course, to your point, it's unlikely that a user who picks up a coin and puts it under light in their house will also find this optimum angle, so this falls into a sort of grey area.
Exactly, and combined with monitor differences...
Have a great weekend,
Eric
<< <i>"Of course, to your point, it's unlikely that a user who picks up a coin and puts it under light in their house will also find this optimum angle, so this falls into a sort of grey area."
Exactly, and combined with monitor differences...
Have a great weekend,
Eric >>
With many toned coins, I disagree. A lot of times, it is just slightly tilting the coin in the light...no "magic angles" or anything like that.
I may not be in the same class of photographing coins as Phil or Mark Goodman, or some others, but I have taken enough to know that there MANY coins that just need that slight tilt in the light and you do pop the colors.
I've enjoyed many toners this way. Probably less than 5% of the toners I have seen and tilted have had to have an "optimal angle" that is hard to find for the colors.
Now, if you don't enjoy them this way, fine. That's one of the reasons that, in the past when I have sold some toned coins, I have tried to put at least 2 sets of photos if it had a different look when tilted.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
And in terms of using some severely skewed magical angle to shoot ... you can clearly see in my iPhone photos just how slight an angle was needed to match the look that Phil shot.
When you shoot a colorfully toned coin ... in a single image ... YOU HAVE TO PICK AN ANGLE to shoot ... People that say straight on is the only "right" angle are completely off base. Even their straight on angle is only ONE view ... and that does not capture all of the looks of these coins. Clearly to properly capture these coins you probably need about 5 shots per coin OR a video. Truth be told, I think only video's, like I posted earlier, tell the whole tale. That is as close to an in-hand examination look as you can get (IMHO).
In my video posted earlier, you can see the Purple Proof Lincoln shows it's purple color in ALL angles even straight on. So it's not like that coin looks copper then if you tip it to some special angle it turns purple. If you bought this coin, it would look purple from ANY ANGLE !!! Not just 1 angle. However the shade of purple CHANGES as you roll and tip the coin.
Can you imagine some of these so called "straight on view only" guys not tipping their un-toned coins in order to see if there is any cartwheel luster or hairlines from an old cleaning. Tipping coins is as NORMAL of a way of examining coins as you can get. And I am SURE all the PCGS graders tip and roll the coins they grade. It's the only way to get the full spectrum of views necessary to properly evaluate a coin.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
quite the toner there coppercolor
<< <i>1957D Lincoln
>>
I would guess that I provided an image that was large enough to see the coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>1957D Lincoln
>>
I would guess that I provided an image that was large enough to see the coin.
You're right Todd, not sure why the photobucket image I had was the small one. Deleted until I can rectify
<< <i>Can you imagine some of these non color guys not tipping their untoned coins in order to see if there is any cartwheel luster or hairlines from an old cleaning
Tipping coins is as NORMAL of a way of examining coins as you can get >>
One of the points I like to emphasize is that if you want the "in-hand" look, you need to set up your lighting, angles, etc to mimic that look from the perspective of the camera. As the OP says, it's very normal to tip the coin all directions to see color, hairlines, and luster, and yet the camera can only pick up one combination of lighting and viewing angle at a time. The most common viewing situation is a single halogen lamp, with the coin in a slab or flip or holder. This is very limited and each combination of lighting and tilt gives only a "snapshot" of the coin. A challenge I give folks is to hold the coin and find the very best, favorite position of lighting and tilt, and then imagine that was a published photo instead of a live, in-hand view. The photo would be pretty disappointing! It would have dark shadows in some areas, and overly bright details in others. It may have reflections off the holder surface that obscure parts of the coin. In short, it would probably not be a very good photographic representation of the coin. It's the coin photographer's job to set up his camera and lights to give as balanced a representation as possible so that in a single image the coin is presented in its "best light" to show color, surface details, and luster such that the viewer can assess the coin. This often involves multiple lights with very specific placements that would be difficult to duplicate when viewing the coin in-hand.
http://macrocoins.com
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Thanks for bringing up the cameo portion.
That is the first place I learned about angles and looks and lighting....before I even got into toners that much.
I couldn't figure out why some folks posted pictures of completely black and white franklins and they looked NOTHING like that to me....then I discovered lighting and angling and, VOILA, I could see it too.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Can you imagine some of these non color guys not tipping their untoned coins in order to see if there is any cartwheel luster or hairlines from an old cleaning
Tipping coins is as NORMAL of a way of examining coins as you can get. >>
WL, apparently you are missing the point.
No one is saying collectors don't enjoy viewing their coins at angles, in different lighting, etc. Of course they do. The question is what image do you present when displaying or selling a coin? It should be the one that most accurately represents the coin in the way most people will normally view it. And let's assume only one photo is able to be shown for each side, as is common with auction catalogs, dealer websites, etc.
I see no harm in presenting additional images to show off corner-case lighting and angles.
Here are images of very colorful coins that needed no manipulation to display their stunning colors.
Lance.
And I have always been a proponent that if you sell a colorfully toned coin over the internet, you should ALWAYS provide 4 or 5 shots showing the various looks. If you don't do that the odds for a return are much higher since some buyers might not understand that it's a view at one particular angle -- other angles could be worse or BETTER! I think my video of my purple toned Lincoln Cent shows the stunning MIRRORS much better than the TrueView. Someone that bought that coin based just on the TrueView might think the coin was colorful but kind of matte -- when in fact it's got not only killer color, but killer mirrors.
After doing this thread, honestly I would probably shoot a video of any coin I wanted to sell over the internet.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
You are correct in that most business strike toned coins has toning that can be seen at all angles and don't need to be twirled, wiggled or flashed back and forth. Unfortunately, proofs such as WL's Lincoln's don't allow that. They have several different views, any number of which can portray the coin in a way that represents the actual in hand look of the coin.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Nothing wrong with that at all, really.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
<< <i>The same could be said about black and white cameo proofs, or black and gold (if gold). The cameo shows up the same way as the color does in toners. Yet that look seems to be acceptable and more forgiving in TrueViews and photos. Approximately the same manipulating, tweaking or enhancing is applied. You can usually only see the cameo effect if the coin is tilted back and forth in your hands.
>>
You can have a lot of fun with proofs.
I can't find the non watermark one of this:
Interesting reading this old thread from years ago!
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
WL, it was a great post then, and thank you for renewing it. My principal collection is IHC Proofs. I collect those with color and have completed my registry set (Paha Sapa Indians) recently. When I started that set I thought I would focus on RD and CAM coins. But then Rick Snow sold me this 1885 PR67BN:
[IMG]http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag436/deiceman2/25389633_400x400_zpsdmnwpszc.jpg[/IMG]
Cannot seem to post the image from Photobucket nor can I copy and paste from my own files.......BIG problem with forum software.......
I cannot find RD and Cam coins that can compare. BN and some RB IHC proofs are far superior to RD and CAM IHC PR coins. And in may cases the are much more expensive due to the toning premium.
And I also thank you for your inspiration as well with your great set of toned Lincolns. Toned copper seems to be painted by God and never dipped by man. FWIW
OINK
WL, Funny you should post this thread today. Just minutes ago I published a Showcase set of Modern Toned coins all with Trueviews. I have been working on it for about 6 months and have one more coin to acquire.
https://pcgs.com/SetRegistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/bolivarshagnastys-toned-modern-proofs/2557
I know we are all hoping for continued improvement on the Showcase situation.
Am I the only one who gets a pop-up when this thread opens? It reads-
"To view this page, you must log in to area “MirrorProofLincolns” on 100greatestmirrorprooflincolns.com:80."
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
I'm getting it as well. Have click on x twice to get out of it.
Same here. And if you click the #2 (accidently like I did) to go to page two, it will pop up again. And clicking twice to cancel it out, you end up at the top/beginning of this page. Looks like CU needs to update their firewall security.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I don't get a popup but 100greatestmirrorprooflincolns.com was a beautiful site and sight!
Thanks for bringing up this thread again. The photos are a treat!
Fixed the popup login box problem! Sorry about that.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
Great Showcase Bolivar!
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
This week I bought an 1899 Indian Cent Proof (PCGS PR65RB) from Andy at Angel Dees (one of my favorite dealers) -- and was so interested in the difference between Andy's photo and the PCGS TrueView that I couldn't wait to see the beast in hand. When the coin arrived and I looked at it in hand, I realized both photos were correct -- it's just 2 different lighting angles.
Linked below is a short movie I made of the coin tipping it into indirect sunlight (underneath a skylight) recorded with my iPhone. https://mindstar.com/cointalk_photos/IndianCent.MOV (13 MB, kind of big, sorry!)
This is a shorter and smaller GIF Animation i made of stills ... that I could post inline.
Note that the "popped color" is a bit darker (than the PCGS TrueView) in this inline animation due to me taking these animation photos in early morning sunrise lighting a few minutes ago. You can clearly see both Andy's darker red field (semi cameo) look ... as well as Phil's bright pink and blue popped color in the TrueVIew.
(The scratches are on the slab by the way!) Really the best way to depict a coin like this is with multiple photos from various angles.
My Coin Blog
My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
There is some real talent in this thread!
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