PCGS vs. NGC grades -- Are they comparable?

WingedLiberty1957

I have seen some other "PCGS vs NGC grade" threads on other boards.

I would be curious to hear what the members of this board think about that subject.

Also what has your experience been crossing NGC coins to PCGS or visa-versa.

In general, on average, do you think NGC PR65 = PCGS PR65.

Finally do you think the comparison has to be divided into broad categories (copper, silver, gold) or series by series.
Does each company grade different series differently so that PCGS might be stricter in one series and NGC in another.

Finally what are your thoughts on colorfully toned coins, in general is one stricter than the other or are they roughly the same.

I realize there are always singular exceptions to any global rules, what I am interested in is broad-based generalized (or averaged) observations.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and input!

OGDan

There are so many caveats and exceptions, but in general my experience is that PCGS = NGC grade minus one or two grades. The norm is for the coin to downgrade by 1 grade, in my experience, however I just had an old NGC holder 58 cross to a 50, which is an accurate grade. Others have had coins upgrade when crossed to PCGS so like I said there are exceptions.

Moldnut

Yes and no. In MS I would say PCGS is tighter, for lower grades I like the other guys in some series (Good or less 1916-D dimes, low grade early copper) to mention a few.

lcoopie

This is impossible to answer.
it completely depends upon the coin in question

crypto79

They use a different standard but they are decent but the market has spoken and perfers pcgs.

RichardDawkins

NGC no line fatties were graded pretty conservatively. Whether or not they will cross or upgrade, NGC no line fatties/soap bar (old NGC holders) do pretty well at auction. There are many attractive coins in those holders, some look much better than PCGS coins of the same grade.

BryceM

As for playing games, the top tier grading companies guarantee the grade on the label. The only way for them to win over the long term is to attempt to maintain consistent grading standards. Standards between companies can clearly vary (FBL, FH, FS, AU vs MS) but within a company it had better be reasonably strict. Are they perfect? No. Do they ever play games? Maybe, but it could always come back to bite them.

LindeDad

Unless someone has run the same coin though both services several times as a blind study it is impossible to answer objectively.

DennisH

Comparisons between the two services vary greatly between series of coins... just look at the realized prices of PCGS vs. NGC Proof-70 moderns over at Heritage or Teletrade. And while you're at it, check out Jefferson nickels in MS67 in particular.

mkman123

Who cares, buy the coin not the holder.

DIMEMAN

Of all the dimes I have crossed from NGC to PCGS only one has crossed at grade. All others recieved a lower grade at PCGS.

I take this into consideration when buying or bidding on NGC coins.

RichardDawkins

I think Numismatic News did an experiment by sending a set of coins (or a particular coin) to a bunch of different services, and ICG turned out to be the most consistent.

jdimmick

I use both services routinely for the coin biz.

I like NGC for lower minst state gold mainly becuase its cheaper and faster submitting than to PCGS. Also , I tend to send moderns (the few I submit) to NGC as I am not a modern maker, but just to holder some for re-sale via ebay , etc.

I also use NGC to get grades on problem coins where the grade is stated, such as AU details, cleaned, etc. PCGS new net grading I am not fond of.

However, when it comes to something valuable, or rare, i always use PCGS.

also, my personal collection is 100% PCGS, nothing other than that will reside in it, if it doesnt PCGS grade, then I wont own it for myself. When its time to sell , PCGS will out sell the same coin in an NGC holder most of the time. Some is market perception, but still fact.

PerryHall

Ask this question on the NGC coin forum and let us know what they say.

coinkat

Its about the coin- the coins in the plastic need to be compared -not the plastic. I think there views on this subject that really miss the mark

123cents

<< <i>Unless someone has run the same coin though both services several times as a blind study it is impossible to answer objectively.

>>

golden

I have crossed two coins from NGC to PCGS.

NGC 12 to PCGS 12
NGC 58 to PCGS 53 I still think it is better than a 53.

Now I do not even look at NGC coins.

grip

I find that NGC market grades more so than PCGS.

astrorat

<< <i>I think Numismatic News did an experiment by sending a set of coins (or a particular coin) to a bunch of different services, and ICG turned out to be the most consistent. >>

Actually, if you are referring to the study from 2005 or so (IIRC), Coin World reported that ACG was the most consistent, not the most accurate, but the most consistent.

astrorat

No Kool-Aid here, but ... regarding two series about which I am fairly familiar, Capped Bust halves and double dimes, PCGS is far more often on the mark than NGC with circulated pieces.

grip

<< <i>I have crossed two coins from NGC to PCGS.

NGC 12 to PCGS 12
NGC 58 to PCGS 53 I still think it is better than a 53.

Now I do not even look at NGC coins. >>



Two coins and your evaluating them? Your joking me .

Bochiman

Go back and read a lot of the posts and you will see it varies.
For moderns, NGC usually grades more "leniently". For others, it can go other way.

I have very nice NGC classics that won't cross AT grade. (@ not "a"rtificially "t"oned" ).
I just had some crossovers sent in where the NGC crossed at grade and another one moved UP a grade.
I also had a PCI cross AT grade to PCGS.

Tells me that for many of the coins, it depends on the coin....learn to look at the coin and grade it yourself and then decide

coinbuf

<< <i>I have crossed two coins from NGC to PCGS.

NGC 12 to PCGS 12
NGC 58 to PCGS 53 I still think it is better than a 53.

Now I do not even look at NGC coins. >>



I love buyers like you, leaves so much nice material out in the market place for the rest of us who are not into kool-aid.

Buzzybest

<< <i>

<< <i>I have crossed two coins from NGC to PCGS.

NGC 12 to PCGS 12
NGC 58 to PCGS 53 I still think it is better than a 53.

Now I do not even look at NGC coins. >>



I love buyers like you, leaves so much nice material out in the market place for the rest of us who are not into kool-aid. >>



Cute sarcasm,but inappropriate!

PerryHall

<< <i>

<< <i>I have crossed two coins from NGC to PCGS.

NGC 12 to PCGS 12
NGC 58 to PCGS 53 I still think it is better than a 53.

Now I do not even look at NGC coins. >>



I love buyers like you, leaves so much nice material out in the market place for the rest of us who are not into kool-aid. >>



Agree. Some of us actually buy the coin rather than just the plastic.

mozin

The grading standards of PCGS and NGC are varying according to the coin series. For me, one simply needs to look at the auction prices realized for PCGS versus NGC coins, within any given series, to determine crossing at grade possibilities. I think Classic Commemoratives are usually pretty close, while Bust Series coinage is quite different. PGCs normally crosses NGC Bust coins somewhere below the NGC grade.

derryb

the biggest difference I have found is between 69 and 70 with the moderns.

TPRC

<< <i>There are so many caveats and exceptions, but in general my experience is that PCGS = NGC grade minus one or two grades. The norm is for the coin to downgrade by 1 grade, in my experience, however I just had an old NGC holder 58 cross to a 50, which is an accurate grade. Others have had coins upgrade when crossed to PCGS so like I said there are exceptions. >>





Recently, I had an NGC fatty AU-55 bust half cross to a pcgs 58, but I still say PCGS is more conservative and the marketplace certainly thinks so. And that is not a reason not to buy NGC coins. You just need to look at the coin carefully.

wondercoin

Often times, a careful study of prices realized over time can be very helpful to understanding the PCGS vs. NGC standards. By way of example only in a coin series I know a little about ... silver Washington quarters.

The last sale of a 1959-P in PCGS-MS67 just fetched $17,250 at Heritage (and was purchased by a competent collector of the series)

The last purchase I made of a 1959-P quarter in NGC-MS67 was less than $500 (and I personally think the coin is a PCGS-MS66+ quality coin and one day I may seek that grade on the piece from PCGS although PCGS may only want to grade it MS66... we'll see). Also, the last sale at Heritage recently on an NGC-MS67 example was less than $375 and slightly over $400 on the one before that.

Anyone out there truly believe the the (2) companies are grading 1959-P mint state quarters using the exact same grading standard?

On the other hand, I can show you some ultra modern coins where the PCGS-PR69DCAM and the NGC-PR69UC trade at basically the same price for good reason.

Study prices realized and it may just help you greatly to understand your series. Of course, even better ... learn how to grade your series.

Wondercoin

golfer72

I hesitate to use the term "standards" since that implies consistency which neither service has attained. Having said that and looked at lots of coins I would say PCGS may be 1/2 point tighter. I also think they are biased when crossing NGC coins.

magikbilly

Even if they were, and they aren't (would they want that?), it all comes down to whatever 2 coins are in question.

Eric

wondercoin

By the way, nothing I wrote should suggest that one company vs. the other is using the RIGHT "standard".

I believe PCGS has not graded a silver Washington quarter (pre-1965) MS68 in years and years (other than on regrade for a possible + grade). I believe a few coins have been deserving of an MS68 grade and have failed to obtain it using the "standard" employed at PCGS for the better part of the last decade in grading this series. As far as "consistency" though over the past years ... you better believe they have been "consistent" in their treatment of this series.

And, I am fully aware that ownership adds at least a half a point in some cases, so I am certainly not challenging one company or the other. Consistentcy is the key ... I agree. Both PCGS and NGC have been very consistent in grading silver Washington quarters over the past 10-20 years in my view to their own standard.

Wondercoin

Nysoto

Its no secret that PCGS is USUALLY stricter with grading pre-1840 US coins in gold, silver, and copper. There is no reason to avoid NGC coins, there may be more opportunity in NGC coins that will cross to the magical PCGS holder. I bought my icon coin from Doug Winter, NGC58 crossed in holder to PCGS AU58. PCGS and NGC like to keep the collectors confused by implying there is a grading standard, when in fact it is a moving target that adjusts over time to keep the crackout, resubmission, and crossover revenue rolling in.

madax425

I dont think you can use crossovers as a basis for judgement, pcgs is not going to cross a lower end coin, only nice solid for grade coins. The only real way to see would be to take say 20 coins a broad selection send them to one service crack them out and then send them to the other. Do this 3 or 4 times and you might get a better idea, though chances are the coins will get different grades from the same service many times. I remember reading something by QDB, about a 16-D dime(iirc), that a dealer sent in 25 times before it finally came back in the 65 holder he wanted it in. Both services to a good job and have improved collector confidence, I scratched my head at alot of grading before certification, and I still do with certification. As for me I will buy a coin only if I like it, be it certified or not. If you buy only coins from one service you are leaving alot of nice coins on the table.

magikbilly

"The only real way to see would be to take say 20 coins a broad selection send them to one service crack them out and then send them to the other. Do this 3 or 4 times..."


Shouldn't the Coin Scanner catch this?

Best,
Eric

RevDrBlimber

Impossible to generalize as most others have pointed out here, and there is definitely a bias with any crossover with tape over the grade and cert#. Both companies want to be in business many years from now, they want to maintain their good names. They are absolutely committed to defending their reputations.

I would read some of the Rosen Numismatic Advisorys that deal with this topic. There is an interview with Mark Salzburg of NGC who stated that PCGS overgrades certain coins. It is available free on their site.

roadrunner

PCGS is consistently tougher across >90% of the entire coin spectrum (1995-2008) even if it's just a tenth or few tenths of a point on average. There may be some areas where they equal, maybe even a few niche markets where NGC is a tad tougher (world coins?). But 18th, 19th, 20th century coinage it's a no brainer who has a more conservative standard. I would agree both are consistent within their standards. In the early years of slabbing the 2 services were generally equal. And they may be much closer than they were from a couple of years ago. But so many coins were graded during the great dilution that it will take many years to average that out. The widest gaps undoubtedly exist in 18th 19th century type coins,
especially bust and seated....and specific 1934-1964 moderns (ie MS67 and MS68 Lincolns and Washingtons for example).

To see this, just compare pop reports and check the % of coins across the board for each grade of a particular type where there are hundreds to thousands of submissions.
Both have seen a similar number of coins in the past so most comparisons work well. In bust halves for example it's no secret that there are 3X to 4X as many NGC 65's as PCGS 65's.
Considering they have seen a similar number of MS bust halves, a conclusion can be drawn.

AMRC

Your answer lies in the realized prices in the Heritage auction archieves.

RevDrBlimber

This is how NGC responds to the charge that PCGS is stricter:

"MR: Mark, in the minds of some folks PCGS is preferred over NGC. This is seen in the market as well as with auction prices for equally-graded coins of the same issue, and with a comparison of sight-unseen bids. How do you respond to this?

"MS: Actually, I see it as NGC-graded coins being good values. I believe our coins are as good or better. A lot of what people are referring to is the registry phenomenon. I have a concern of an irrational exuberance for plastic. If you want to fill a hole in your registry set, and you’re not critically looking at the coin, shame on you because over a period of time there are things that the consumer needs to look at. Number one he should buy the coin not the holder.

"Number two, he should work with a very good dealer who is knowledgeable, has a track record and looks out for your best interests. Thirdly, and more importantly, you should become your best expert by learning about coins. So, for the coins that may bring more in PCGS holders, over a period of time their prices should come down to more realistic levels.

"We’ve had extraordinary high price levels for copper coins because there was a registry group that was “drinking the Kool-aid” and putting ridiculous prices on them. There was a recent auction result for a 1944 Walker in MS 68 of $110,000. That’s insane, especially since the coin came out of our MS 67 “star” holder! That’s dangerous because the coin winds up with a collector at, say $120-125,000, and I can assure you that there are going to be more MS 68 1944 Walkers made if a service is honestly grading the coins. If a grading service has software that flashes that you just graded a 1944 Walker in MS 68, the pressure is there for the final grade to be lowered to protect the first coin’s value, maintaining the perception that that service’s coins are worth more."
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259

TPRC

<< <i>This is how NGC responds to the charge that PCGS is stricter:

"MR: Mark, in the minds of some folks PCGS is preferred over NGC. This is seen in the market as well as with auction prices for equally-graded coins of the same issue, and with a comparison of sight-unseen bids. How do you respond to this?

"MS: Actually, I see it as NGC-graded coins being good values. I believe our coins are as good or better. A lot of what people are referring to is the registry phenomenon. I have a concern of an irrational exuberance for plastic. If you want to fill a hole in your registry set, and you’re not critically looking at the coin, shame on you because over a period of time there are things that the consumer needs to look at. Number one he should buy the coin not the holder.

"Number two, he should work with a very good dealer who is knowledgeable, has a track record and looks out for your best interests. Thirdly, and more importantly, you should become your best expert by learning about coins. So, for the coins that may bring more in PCGS holders, over a period of time their prices should come down to more realistic levels.

"We’ve had extraordinary high price levels for copper coins because there was a registry group that was “drinking the Kool-aid” and putting ridiculous prices on them. There was a recent auction result for a 1944 Walker in MS 68 of $110,000. That’s insane, especially since the coin came out of our MS 67 “star” holder! That’s dangerous because the coin winds up with a collector at, say $120-125,000, and I can assure you that there are going to be more MS 68 1944 Walkers made if a service is honestly grading the coins. If a grading service has software that flashes that you just graded a 1944 Walker in MS 68, the pressure is there for the final grade to be lowered to protect the first coin’s value, maintaining the perception that that service’s coins are worth more."
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259 >>



The reason this argument is flawed is that it presumes that people are ONLY buying plastic. While that may be true for a few registry pieces, it is not true across the board. I actually find that argument quite arrogant....it is saying...collectors are sheep and they are being led astray. I buy coins, not plastic. I would have expected a better, more professional answer than this and one that did not attack collectors.

keyman64

<< <i>Of all the dimes I have crossed from NGC to PCGS only one has crossed at grade. All others recieved a lower grade at PCGS.

I take this into consideration when buying or bidding on NGC coins. >>



To answer the OP, yes they can be compared but they are certainly NOT equals the majority of the time....typically 1 grade lower in MS.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

BAJJERFAN

If a coin fails to cross on its own submission, but gets cracked out and submitted raw and gets the same grade at the new TPG, can it be considered to have crossed?

Shamika

They are both comparable when it comes to circulated grades. That's all I'll say.

DeepCoin

As a few others have stated, I feel comfortable grading one series fairly well. Mercury dimes tend to be graded one point different between the two series. That is not to say that every coin will grade like that, but on the high end it was fairly consistent.

lkeigwin

One problem both TPG's have, with crossing at grade, is that they must make the determination without seeing the full coin. Usually edges are hidden.

So the coin must be very strong for the grade to allow for any hidden rim damage. Once the decision to cross at grade is made, the coin is cracked and can be seen fully. Small surprises must still be acceptable since the commitment has been made and there is no going back.

I can imagine a case where the TPG cracks and discovers a serious flaw that won't allow the cross. In this case I believe the TPG is on the hook for a payout.

As for NGC vs. PCGS, I prefer PCGS plastic but I will buy others if I like them, they're priced right, and I think they will cross to grades I would be happy with.
Lance.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>One problem both TPG's have, with crossing at grade, is that they must make the determination without seeing the full coin. Usually edges are hidden.

So the coin must be very strong for the grade to allow for any hidden rim damage. Once the decision to cross at grade is made, the coin is cracked and can be seen fully. Small surprises must still be acceptable since the commitment has been made and there is no going back.

I can imagine a case where the TPG cracks and discovers a serious flaw that won't allow the cross. In this case I believe the TPG is on the hook for a payout.

As for NGC vs. PCGS, I prefer PCGS plastic but I will buy others if I like them, they're priced right, and I think they will cross to grades I would be happy with.
Lance. >>



That has been mentioned here before, but never fully answered. I'm 99% sure that if PCGS cracks out your coin and finds hidden issues that you get the coin and the discomboobelated slab back. I think you are SOL as far as a payout goes. Then again what fraction of slabbed coins have hidden issues? I'd wager 1 in 10,000 or less.

These days you might get it back in a genuine holder with the appropriate damage code.

lkeigwin

<< <i>

<< <i>One problem both TPG's have, with crossing at grade, is that they must make the determination without seeing the full coin. Usually edges are hidden.

So the coin must be very strong for the grade to allow for any hidden rim damage. Once the decision to cross at grade is made, the coin is cracked and can be seen fully. Small surprises must still be acceptable since the commitment has been made and there is no going back.

I can imagine a case where the TPG cracks and discovers a serious flaw that won't allow the cross. In this case I believe the TPG is on the hook for a payout.

As for NGC vs. PCGS, I prefer PCGS plastic but I will buy others if I like them, they're priced right, and I think they will cross to grades I would be happy with.
Lance. >>


That has been mentioned here before, but never fully answered. I'm 99% sure that if PCGS cracks out your coin and finds hidden issues that you get the coin and the discomboobelated slab back. I think you are SOL as far as a payout goes. Then again what fraction of slabbed coins have hidden issues? I'd wager 1 in 10,000 or less.

These days you might get it back in a genuine holder with the appropriate damage code. >>


You might be right. Who knows? But how do you think the average collector would react if he submitted an NGC coin for a cross-at-grade and it came back in a genuine holder or a lower grade? My guess is PCGS would not tell him to pound sand.
Lance.

TennesseeDave

The worst results I have personally experienced are:

Cracking out an NGC AU-58 Trade $ and getting a Pcgs AU-53

The best was:

Cracking out an NGC VF-25 CBH and getting a Pcgs XF-40

I have had several coins go into same grade holders from Ngc to Pcgs,but all were sent in raw. The only upgrade I ever got on a cross-over was a CBH going from Ngc VF-20 to Pcgs VF-25.

shorecoll

I can't believe I'm disagreeing with Mozin (ish).

I have seen hundreds to thousands of NGC commems overgraded by at least 1 point.

I have seen dozens (or more) of PCGS commems overgraded " ".

I believe that PCGS is more conservative.

I believe some commems like BTWs and WCs are randomly graded by both firms. They just assign a random number from 63-66.

I wish to heck I knew all of this about 5 years before I learned it.

chipper10

<< <i>

<< <i>This is how NGC responds to the charge that PCGS is stricter:

"MR: Mark, in the minds of some folks PCGS is preferred over NGC. This is seen in the market as well as with auction prices for equally-graded coins of the same issue, and with a comparison of sight-unseen bids. How do you respond to this?

"MS: Actually, I see it as NGC-graded coins being good values. I believe our coins are as good or better. A lot of what people are referring to is the registry phenomenon. I have a concern of an irrational exuberance for plastic. If you want to fill a hole in your registry set, and you’re not critically looking at the coin, shame on you because over a period of time there are things that the consumer needs to look at. Number one he should buy the coin not the holder.

"Number two, he should work with a very good dealer who is knowledgeable, has a track record and looks out for your best interests. Thirdly, and more importantly, you should become your best expert by learning about coins. So, for the coins that may bring more in PCGS holders, over a period of time their prices should come down to more realistic levels.

"We’ve had extraordinary high price levels for copper coins because there was a registry group that was “drinking the Kool-aid” and putting ridiculous prices on them. There was a recent auction result for a 1944 Walker in MS 68 of $110,000. That’s insane, especially since the coin came out of our MS 67 “star” holder! That’s dangerous because the coin winds up with a collector at, say $120-125,000, and I can assure you that there are going to be more MS 68 1944 Walkers made if a service is honestly grading the coins. If a grading service has software that flashes that you just graded a 1944 Walker in MS 68, the pressure is there for the final grade to be lowered to protect the first coin’s value, maintaining the perception that that service’s coins are worth more."
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259 >>



The reason this argument is flawed is that it presumes that people are ONLY buying plastic. While that may be true for a few registry pieces, it is not true across the board. I actually find that argument quite arrogant....it is saying...collectors are sheep and they are being led astray. I buy coins, not plastic. I would have expected a better, more professional answer than this and one that did not attack collectors. >>



I didn't read that at all but saw a very cognizant example put forth of how "registry madness" contributes to quality illusions.