I think when you get good enough at grading you will know the grades on the holders are just an opinion from a well respected grading service and that your opinion is what counts.
<< <i>I think when you get good enough at grading you will know the grades on the holders are just an opinion from a well respected grading service and that your opinion is what counts. >>
Good point. Thanks for the reality check. Does generalizations concerning grading services really matter when you are evaluating a specific coin for purchase? I think not.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>And that is not a reason not to buy NGC coins. You just need to look at the coin carefully. >>
Funny, I would argue that you need to look at the coin carefully regardless of the brand of holder it resides in. PCGS. NGC. ANACS. ICG. Raw. It doesn't matter. Many collectors are so concerned with the brand of slab and the number printed on the paper inside of it that they lose sight of the metal disk embedded in the middle of it.
My current coin collecting interests are: (1) British coins 1838-1970 in XF-AU-UNC, (2) silver type coins in XF-AU with that classic medium gray coloration and exceptional eye appeal.
I wholeheartedly agree that first and foremost, the value resides in the coin and not in whose holder it happens to reside- and blind faith in any tpg without knowledge and education is a recipe for disaster.
That being said... all other things equal I do think that NGC is looser as a rule- but particularly on commonly traded mint state items and moderns... on moderns in particular they hand out 70s like candy imo.
I do buy NGC...I just look very closely first (which I should do anyway). There are many NGC coins I agree with the grades on, there are very many I do not. I think both services are guilty of excessive zeal when grading keys, but I have come to grips with that.
<< <i>I think Numismatic News did an experiment by sending a set of coins (or a particular coin) to a bunch of different services, and ICG turned out to be the most consistent. >>
Actually, if you are referring to the study from 2005 or so (IIRC), Coin World reported that ACG was the most consistent, not the most accurate, but the most consistent. >>
NGC had some other useful comments in the Rosen interview for those that have not read the whole thing, sorry for those who have:
MR: It bothers me that some good folks have a very bad experience trusting grading services and coin dealers when they realize that their supposedly well-selected coins are really very low-end or overgraded, worth well below bid levels. They bought into the promises of slabbing only to become its victims. How do you respond?
MS: NGC doesn’t price coins in the market and we’re not communicating the merits of an individual coin directly to a buyer. Neither do we buy or sell coins. Were simply describing their condition, and by doing so independently, collectors are much more victors than victims. Over time there also have been factors that effected the perception of grading. Some say it’s gradeflation but I call most of it a learning curve.
For example, the other day an Augustus Humbert $50 slug was submitted to us. We graded it some 15 years ago as a VF 35. The coin, was fully lustrous, looked very nice and I was perplexed. We put it through the normal grading process and the consensus was the coin is an AU 50. How did that happen? We could have first looked at the coin not understanding strike as well as we do now. We may have been overly cautious about a rim bump; these large coins can easily get knocked around. The politically correct thing to do might have been to grade it EF 45 but we held to AU 5O. Our goal here to is look at coins as we see them the first time, not to be affected by any politics. We’re paid to grade the coins and since 1987 have graded 20-million of them. We’ve advanced on a learning curve; anyone who says there isn’t one is wrong.
As for the coins you think are overgraded, I think that charge applies mostly to generic coins. Unfortunately I’ve seen a lot of overgraded coins from other grading services. You also have to consider our industry’s marketers, for example the ones who complain that MS 65 Saints are liberally graded. Part of that perception may concern flashy 1923-D and 1927 Saints. The market was telling us that it’s okay to have a few more marks on these flashy coins because they qualify to be market-acceptable. Viewed technically, you may be critical of the marks but the flash carries the grade. So, is this gradeflation or a reaction to the market that causes us to adjust?
MR: In the next rip-roaring bull market, would you be under pressure to tighten grading?
MS: I’ll tell you this I’m losing business on a regular basis on generic gold coins because I refuse to change our standards. We have competition which is so liberal on these coins —the $5 to $20 pieces— it is absurd, it’s so ridiculous. Everyone knows it. It’s at least a point and a half in many areas and has affected the marketplace. Premiums have come down on generic gold and they continue to stay down. We’ve stuck to our standard and won’t deviate, bull or bear market.
MR: What are the toughest coins or series to grade? And what are the easiest?
MS: For me, Bust coins are very difficult to grade due to strike factors and the perception that cabinet friction may or not be actual rub. These coins were typically struck poorly, luster is often subdued. Also, early copper coins are tough because so much of it has been cleaned, repaired or retooled, and there are corrosion issues. The Mickley specimen of the 1804 $1 is an example of the difficulty grading these early coins. It was sent to NCS, our conservation service. For decades the coin was considered an AU. It was covered with PVC. We skillfully removed it. Full mirrors were revealed! While the coin had a weak strike, it was fairly graded as a MS 62, and that’s how we graded it. It sold at auction for about $3.8 million.
The criticism I got over that was representative of the misunderstanding of how those coins were struck. Critics said Walter Breen graded the coin AU 50. Jim Halperin of Heritage Capital, no slouch when it comes to grading coins, questioned me why the coin wasn’t graded MS 63 and said that some day it would be! What’s the easiest to grade? For me, silver dollars are, especially the Morgans, as they have the type of design that quickly reveals problems. Another area that’s easy for me to grade is commems; I used to specialize in them. http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259&
Maybe its just me but I determine the coins grade no matter what holder its in ( i also look at the coin for more than 7 sec) and the price I am willing to pay comes from MY grade determination.
<< <i>Maybe its just me but I determine the coins grade no matter what holder its in ( i also look at the coin for more than 7 sec) and the price I am willing to pay comes from MY grade determination. >>
Smart move. There are mistakes in every brand of holder and choice for the grade coins in all the top tier brand slabs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Maybe its just me but I determine the coins grade no matter what holder its in ( i also look at the coin for more than 7 sec) and the price I am willing to pay comes from MY grade determination. >>
Nope, It's not just you but rather quite a few of us. Your way (mine also) is the only way to buy coins and is the practice of every person here who has ever referenced "kool aid" in a post.
<< <i>Maybe its just me but I determine the coins grade no matter what holder its in ( i also look at the coin for more than 7 sec) and the price I am willing to pay comes from MY grade determination. >>
Nope, It's not just you but rather quite a few of us. Your way (mine also) is the only way to buy coins and is the practice of every person here who has ever referenced "kool aid" in a post. >>
Comments
Perhaps the CDN CMI can answer your question.
<< <i>I think when you get good enough at grading you will know the grades on the holders are just an opinion from a well respected grading service and that your opinion is what counts.
Good point. Thanks for the reality check. Does generalizations concerning grading services really matter when you are evaluating a specific coin for purchase? I think not.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>And that is not a reason not to buy NGC coins. You just need to look at the coin carefully. >>
Funny, I would argue that you need to look at the coin carefully regardless of the brand of holder it resides in. PCGS. NGC. ANACS. ICG. Raw. It doesn't matter. Many collectors are so concerned with the brand of slab and the number printed on the paper inside of it that they lose sight of the metal disk embedded in the middle of it.
That being said... all other things equal I do think that NGC is looser as a rule- but particularly on commonly traded mint state items and moderns... on moderns in particular they hand out 70s like candy imo.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>I think Numismatic News did an experiment by sending a set of coins (or a particular coin) to a bunch of different services, and ICG turned out to be the most consistent. >>
Actually, if you are referring to the study from 2005 or so (IIRC), Coin World reported that ACG was the most consistent, not the most accurate, but the most consistent. >>
Oh well, there you go. ACG! Hah!
MR: It bothers me that some good folks have a very bad experience trusting grading services and coin dealers when they realize that their supposedly well-selected coins are really very low-end or overgraded, worth well below bid levels. They bought into the promises of slabbing only to become its victims. How do you respond?
MS: NGC doesn’t price coins in the market and we’re not communicating the merits of an individual coin directly to a buyer. Neither do we buy or sell coins. Were simply describing their condition, and by doing so independently, collectors are much more victors than victims. Over time there also have been factors that effected the perception of grading. Some say it’s gradeflation but I call most of it a learning curve.
For example, the other day an Augustus Humbert $50 slug was submitted to us. We graded it some 15 years ago as a VF 35. The coin, was fully lustrous, looked very nice and I was perplexed. We put it through the normal grading process and the consensus was the coin is an AU 50. How did that happen? We could have first looked at the coin not understanding strike as well as we do now. We may have been overly cautious about a rim bump; these large coins can easily get knocked around. The politically correct thing to do might have been to grade it EF 45 but we held to AU 5O. Our goal here to is look at coins as we see them the first time, not to be affected by any politics. We’re paid to grade the coins and since 1987 have graded 20-million of them. We’ve advanced on a learning curve; anyone who says there isn’t one is wrong.
As for the coins you think are overgraded, I think that charge applies mostly to generic coins. Unfortunately I’ve seen a lot of overgraded coins from other grading services. You also have to consider our industry’s marketers, for example the ones who complain that MS 65 Saints are liberally graded. Part of that perception may concern flashy 1923-D and 1927 Saints. The market was telling us that it’s okay to have a few more marks on these flashy coins because they qualify to be market-acceptable. Viewed technically, you may be critical of the marks but the flash carries the grade. So, is this gradeflation or a reaction to the market that causes us to adjust?
MR: In the next rip-roaring bull market, would you be under pressure to tighten grading?
MS: I’ll tell you this I’m losing business on a regular basis on generic gold coins because I refuse to change our standards. We have competition which is so liberal on these coins —the $5 to $20 pieces— it is absurd, it’s so ridiculous. Everyone knows it. It’s at least a point and a half in many areas and has affected the marketplace. Premiums have come down on generic gold and they continue to stay down. We’ve stuck to our standard and won’t deviate, bull or bear market.
MR: What are the toughest coins or series to grade? And what are the easiest?
MS: For me, Bust coins are very difficult to grade due to strike factors and the perception that cabinet friction may or not be actual rub. These coins were typically struck poorly, luster is often subdued. Also, early copper coins are tough because so much of it has been cleaned, repaired or retooled, and there are corrosion issues. The Mickley specimen of the 1804 $1 is an example of the difficulty grading these early coins. It was sent to NCS, our conservation service. For decades the coin was considered an AU. It was covered with PVC. We skillfully removed it. Full mirrors were revealed! While the coin had a weak strike, it was fairly graded as a MS 62, and that’s how we graded it. It sold at auction for about $3.8 million.
The criticism I got over that was representative of the misunderstanding of how those coins were struck. Critics said Walter Breen graded the coin AU 50. Jim Halperin of Heritage Capital, no slouch when it comes to grading coins, questioned me why the coin wasn’t graded MS 63 and said that some day it would be! What’s the easiest to grade? For me, silver dollars are, especially the Morgans, as they have the type of design that quickly reveals problems. Another area that’s easy for me to grade is commems; I used to specialize in them.
http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2259&
<< <i>Maybe its just me but I determine the coins grade no matter what holder its in ( i also look at the coin for more than 7 sec) and the price I am willing to pay comes from MY grade determination. >>
Smart move. There are mistakes in every brand of holder and choice for the grade coins in all the top tier brand slabs.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Maybe its just me but I determine the coins grade no matter what holder its in ( i also look at the coin for more than 7 sec) and the price I am willing to pay comes from MY grade determination. >>
Nope, It's not just you but rather quite a few of us. Your way (mine also) is the only way to buy coins and is the practice of every person here who has ever referenced "kool aid" in a post.
<< <i>
<< <i>Maybe its just me but I determine the coins grade no matter what holder its in ( i also look at the coin for more than 7 sec) and the price I am willing to pay comes from MY grade determination. >>
Nope, It's not just you but rather quite a few of us. Your way (mine also) is the only way to buy coins and is the practice of every person here who has ever referenced "kool aid" in a post. >>
Yup
More of us than most realize.