The ms70 1978 Ike "mechanical error" is listed in Stacks-Bower's auction.

AllCoinsRule

Link

There was an old thread about it here somewhere. It's been removed from the pop report.

NewParadigm

Interesting. That would have been nice to send that coin in and have it come back a 70.

Rampage

That coin is so far from MS70. I see several red flags here (even though I know better than that coin as a 70). Number one, unless I missed it, Stacks did not list the cert numbers. Number two, Stacks did not show a picture of the slab. Number 3, Stacks states no coin higher other than the one listed in their auction.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>Link

There was an old thread about it here somewhere. It's been removed from the pop report. >>



PCGS Population: 1; none finer; curiously, the present coin is not listed in the on-line PCGS Population Report.

BryceM

Really? The guys at SB published that description for that coin? LOL. Even if the 9,000 abrasions are planchet flaws it still isn't all that nice. I'm holding a 71-D in my hands right now that grades a 66. It has none of the chatter this coin does. The coin at the auction is a 64 or 65 at best.

But, I guess if you've just simply gotta have it......

stealer

"Free of post-production abrasions, what minor "chatter" is present appears to be a composite of tiny marks from the blank planchet that did not strike out in the press -- another very common attribute in circulation strike dollars of this type."

So, uh, how do you tell the difference?

coinkid855

Absolutely ridiculous. Stacks should be ashamed. That coin is in no way a 70, and they know it.



-Paul

lasvegasteddy

put me in tha..."i don't like it at 70" crowd too...
must of been xmas morning graded

19Lyds

I cannot believe that Stacks-Bowers actually listed that coin as an MS70.



PCGS shpuld contact Stacks and get that coin pulled since its an embarassment.

BTW, the mottling on the surface appears to be an "Improperly Annealed Planchet" (Sintered). Nice error but not an MS70.



Above is my MS65

wondercoin

Just my 2 cents ...

Mechanical error and ALL parties involved, especially the owner of the coin, should all agree to return it to PCGS to remove it from the database.

I recently bought sight-unseen a PCGS-MS70 $100 Platinum coin at auction (year 2000) for a few thousand dollars. If it was a true MS70, it would probably be a $20,000++ coin. I thought I hit a grand slam (until I saw it live). But, the coin was nothing more than a mechanical error. I brought it to PCGS the same day I got the coin in and they contacted the owner (authorized dealer) who gave them permission to fix the mechanical error and regrade the coin to its proper grade. No harm, no foul. No one profited from the obvious mechanical error. Even the auction company agreed to waive their commission. Of course, I could have sold it to a registry hungry buyer for $10,000 or $15,000 just for the insert tag putting "my head in the sand" and saying to myself "PCGS is the expert and they said it was a perfect 70". But, that would have been the wrong thing to do.

Hey guys ... why wait for PCGS to contact you ... pull the coin, return it to PCGS and ask them to holder it in the proper grade. Their will be plenty more coins to make big money on.

Wondercoin

homerunhall

This coin is an obvious mechanical error. It is not covered by the PCGS grading guarantee. It is not on the PCGS Pop Report because it is not an MS70.

If you buy it, you're on your own. If you sell it, you are committing fraud.

hrh

fc

<< <i>This coin is an obvious mechanical error. It is not covered by the PCGS grading guarantee. It is not on the PCGS Pop Report because it is not an MS70.

If you buy it, you're on your own. If you sell it, you are committing fraud.

hrh >>



I am not sure if selling the coin is fraud as long as both the seller and the buyer
come to an agreement on the value of the coin and basically toss out the grade
on the label. Sure.. actually convincing someone it is really a MS70 and paying
a huge sum of money is fraud... but I am not going to point a finger
at the auction house for doing this. I will let someone else do that. I am just
interested in the fact here is an opportunity to buy it.

Basically what I am saying is that I can think of more then one or two members
here who would enjoy owning this coin just for the conversation piece it is.... kind
of a joke slab to get some chuckles.

cough braddick cough ;-)

stealer

<< <i>If you buy it, you're on your own. If you sell it, you are committing fraud.

hrh >>


So then if Stacks-Bower's is committing fraud why not tell them?

On another note, how did 2 world class graders grade this as a 70???

MsMorrisine

<< <i>"Free of post-production abrasions, what minor "chatter" is present appears to be a composite of tiny marks from the blank planchet that did not strike out in the press -- another very common attribute in circulation strike dollars of this type."

So, uh, how do you tell the difference? >>




such remnants from the surface of the planchet can and do happen on the surface of Ikes.

I'm not the person to explain their identification though.


However, this one MS70 appears to have some discolorations on the jawline and the back of the neck. perhaps grease that will dip off with acetone?

interesting that the SB people bought into the label/holder and not the coin.

wondercoin

"So then if Stacks-Bower's is committing fraud why not tell them?
On another note, how did 2 world class graders grade this as a 70???"

Here is my take....

1. Stacks/Bowers (SB) runs clean auctions and does NOT knowingly sell "fraudulent" coins through their auction. The fellow that did the description on this coin messed up and should be spoken to by SB. SB simply does not handle all that many modern coins ... there was no intent to deceive anyone with the description... simply an honest mistake by someone who does not see all that many 1970's business strike coins in the auctions. My guess is SB will pull this coin from the auction the moment they realize what has happened.

2. NO World class graders graded this coin MS70. Whomever typed up the insert tag at PCGS simply messed up. A pure and simple mechanical error.

Wondercoin

mkman123

wow PCGS really goofed up.....

PerryHall

I wonder if PCGS will try to buy this coin to get this embarrassment off the market.

wondercoin

Why would they need to buy it, especially if the submittor was an authorized dealer? Have you read that licensing agreement! I suspect a simple phone call from DH would go a long, long way to wrapping up this little problem in short order.

Wondercoin

PerryHall

<< <i>Why would they need to buy it, especially if the submittor was an authorized dealer? Have you read that licensing agreement! I suspect a simple phone call from DH would go a long, long way to wrapping up this little problem in short order.

Wondercoin >>



Why hasn't DH made this phone call yet?

wondercoin

My guess is he did not even know about this. He has a few irons in the fire these days. But, he knows about it now obviously and let's see what happens later this week.

Wondercoin

astrorat

<< <i>On another note, how did 2 world class graders grade this as a 70??? >>

They didn't ... it's a labeling error (mechanical error), not a grading error.

homerunhall

Come on guys, use your brain.

We grade 150,000 coins a month. No grader graded this coin MS70. It was probably a data entry error. It happens, but rarely. This one was graded quite a while ago, Mitch has known about it for a long time. We are constantly improving our operations and putting up roadblocks to catch the mistakes, but new ones pop up occasionally.

As for the fraud deal. That certainly didn't mean Stacks Bowers. Their coin people I'm sure didn't even know about it. I'll make the call today. The fraud commit was aimed at anyone who plans on buying the coin and reselling it. And any lawyer type that thinks that wouldn't be fraud needs to go back to law school.

hrh

MrEureka

I recently bought sight-unseen a PCGS-MS70 $100 Platinum coin at auction (year 2000) for a few thousand dollars. If it was a true MS70, it would probably be a $20,000++ coin. I thought I hit a grand slam (until I saw it live). But, the coin was nothing more than a mechanical error. I brought it to PCGS the same day I got the coin in and they contacted the owner (authorized dealer) who gave them permission to fix the mechanical error and regrade the coin to its proper grade. No harm, no foul. No one profited from the obvious mechanical error. Even the auction company agreed to waive their commission. Of course, I could have sold it to a registry hungry buyer for $10,000 or $15,000 just for the insert tag putting "my head in the sand" and saying to myself "PCGS is the expert and they said it was a perfect 70". But, that would have been the wrong thing to do.

Mitch - What was the correct grade on the coin?

STONE

<< <i>As for the fraud deal. That certainly didn't mean Stacks Bowers. Their coin people I'm sure didn't even know about it. I'll make the call today. The fraud commit was aimed at anyone who plans on buying the coin and reselling it. And any lawyer type that thinks that wouldn't be fraud needs to go back to law school.

hrh >>


HRH,

While I've never studied law, I don't think this could be considered fraud for a couple reasons:
1) This was encapsulated by a third party grading service who offers grade opinions, not cut and dry answers.
2) As this coin is claimed to be a mechanical error, and I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue against that,
until the coin is removed from the holder it still carries with it the opinion of that TPG.

Now, in terms of ethics reselling this coin as an MS-70 would be unethical.

Just my opinion

notwilight

I'll assume the best of intentions for SB, but they should be embarrassed by trying to explain the chatter as planchet issues that didn't strike out. --Jerry

guitarwes

"Free of post-production abrasions, what minor "chatter" is present appears to be a composite of tiny marks from the blank planchet that did not strike out in the press -- another very common attribute in circulation strike dollars of this type."

Sure seems to me that they are trying to market it as a true MS70 and trying to capitalize on it.

Pokermandude

<< <i>"Free of post-production abrasions, what minor "chatter" is present appears to be a composite of tiny marks from the blank planchet that did not strike out in the press -- another very common attribute in circulation strike dollars of this type."

Sure seems to me that they are trying to market it as a true MS70 and trying to capitalize on it. >>



Wow, gimme a break lol.

It's crap like this that will make the whole hobby end up jumping the shark. Shame on PCGS for letting a blatant labelling error like that slip out of their professional system. And "poop" on Stacks for trying to market it like that.

19Lyds

<< <i>Come on guys, use your brain. >>

Brains? What Brains? We don nee no stinkin brains! We're coin collectors!

I cannot seem to locate the original thread on this one but the IKE folks knew it was a bogus grade the minute they heard about it.

What surprises me is the fact that, even though it had been removed from the pop reports and SB even states that in the listing, the coin was still listed without question or validation from PCGS.

Folks report that they saw this coin at the Orlando FUN Show and reported that it was obviously not an MS70. Grades range between MS65 and MS67. Whether or not those sentiments were relayed to the dealer is unknown. Whether or not the original submitter is trying to cash in on this error is also unknown. Myabe the submitter is inexperienced? Maybe they just don't know? Maybe they think the world is out to take advantage of them?

Regardless, I'd like to believe that SB "would" have asked questions of PCGS like "Why isn't this in the Pop Reports?", but its evident that this did not happen.

Hopefully, the coin will get pulled and hopefully this "mistake" won't create an environment of questionability behind the other high grade IKE's that actually deserve the grade. I don't think there is anything worse than a collector having to "justify" his/her collection.

CoinRaritiesOnline

FYI -- that auction lot has been pulled by Stack's-Bowers. They said it may take a little while for the server to fully update to no longer show it, but that lot has been withdrawn.

wondercoin

"Mitch - What was the correct grade on the coin?"

Andy: Hi. Referring to that platinum coin ... MS68 on a typical day and MS69 on a good day. The submitting (authorized) dealer was a large operation that got back a number of MS70 coins and simply sent them all to auction. I have no doubt they had no intention of "scamming" the system on this particular mechanical error. As soon as I brought the coin to PCGS' operations' attention, DH called the authorized dealer submittor and the problem was resolved in literally one minute. The auction company also agreed to waive their commission and to void the deal they had with me.

While this may not seem like an important coin to most people reading this thread ... bear in mind that PCGS has only graded a couple MS70 $100 Plats dated before 2003. This was a HUGE coin to platinum collectors.

Wondercoin

JupitarCoins

What others have said here that coin is no 70 the reverse looks better than the obverse though.

wondercoin

"FYI -- that auction lot has been pulled by Stack's-Bowers. They said it may take a little while for the server to fully update to no longer show it, but that lot has been withdrawn."

Brian Kendrella (I am not sure of his official title, but he is the young "superstar" over at Spectrum Group that works right under the "big boss" and essentially runs Bowers and Teletrade), sent me an email this morning informing me the coin had been pulled from the auction. It looks like it took him all of 1 minute to deal with this.

This is an important coin to Ike collectors to finally "clean up as well".

Wondercoin

19Lyds

<< <i>What others have said here that coin is no 70 the reverse looks better than the obverse though. >>

I think thats because the reverse has less peripheral open space than the obvserse does. Typically, annealing chatter is more difficult to stamp out on the peripheries than it is toward the center of the coins surfaces.

ModCrewman

Just want to add, it's been "fun" watching this play out in real time. The power of the board once again revealed.

I also very much enjoy having HRH chime in...wish he'd come out and play with us a little more often.

19Lyds

<< <i>FYI -- that auction lot has been pulled by Stack's-Bowers. They said it may take a little while for the server to fully update to no longer show it, but that lot has been withdrawn. >>

I wonder why bidding is still active on the listing?

Prethen

What a joke! Nice 70!

MsMorrisine

<< <i>

<< <i>What others have said here that coin is no 70 the reverse looks better than the obverse though. >>

I think thats because the reverse has less peripheral open space than the obvserse does. Typically, annealing chatter is more difficult to stamp out on the peripheries than it is toward the center of the coins surfaces. >>




which makes the chatter in the center seem more like chatter.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>

<< <i>FYI -- that auction lot has been pulled by Stack's-Bowers. They said it may take a little while for the server to fully update to no longer show it, but that lot has been withdrawn. >>

I wonder why bidding is still active on the listing? >>



patience.

I believe it is just a matter of time.

illini420

So the matter has been resolved and dealt with... hopefully that means the coin is going to PCGS to be put in the correct holder... otherwise nothing has really been resolved.



Mechanical errors really scare me. Sure, it's easy to see when an MS70 was mistakenly put on a label instead of MS65... but how do I know that MS66 Barber Quarter I have wasn't also a data entry error that should have been an MS65 in the graders' opinions. It seems that it would be easier for the label maker to accidently put in a number one grade off than it would be to put in a grade that is way off. It also worries me that if I ever need to make a grade guarantee claim on a coin, the company could just claim mechanical error if they didn't want to pay up and I would apparently have no recourse.

The story of the platinum 70 that was really only a 68 or 69 that was purportedly a mechanical error is really troubling. Sure, most of us can see that Ike isn't a 70 and would guess that it's a mechanical error. But I doubt most of us can pick out the differences between 69 and 70 with as much confidence. Now I'm wondering how many of my PCGS 70 coins that I paid large premiums for are really just mechanical errors....

wondercoin

Illini: While most people can probably not tell the difference between a "liner" 69 from a 70 ... I agree with you on that ... it is much, much easier to tell the difference between a typical 69 and a 70. In fact, I believe PCGS should institute the + grade for 69 graded moderns submitted outside of "bulk" (no reason to disrupt bulk at this point, but regular submissions should be entitled to a + grade in my view).

That said ... if someone can not tell the difference between a typical 69 (not a "liner") and a 70 graded coin, they probably should stick with the 69 grade coins.

Wondercoin

19Lyds

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>FYI -- that auction lot has been pulled by Stack's-Bowers. They said it may take a little while for the server to fully update to no longer show it, but that lot has been withdrawn. >>

I wonder why bidding is still active on the listing? >>



patience.

I believe it is just a matter of time. >>

And that time is now.

The lot has been officially withdrawn. I'm glad I saved the pictures.

MsMorrisine

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>FYI -- that auction lot has been pulled by Stack's-Bowers. They said it may take a little while for the server to fully update to no longer show it, but that lot has been withdrawn. >>

I wonder why bidding is still active on the listing? >>



patience.

I believe it is just a matter of time. >>

And that time is now.

The lot has been officially withdrawn. I'm glad I saved the pictures. >>




Lot #4166. Lot Withdrawn.


I wish the pictures of the holder were saved. Just for giggles.

frnklnlvr

SB must have thought something wasn't right about the coin when they noticed it wasn't listed in the population report. IMO they should have contacted PCGS before listing the coin in an auction.

rays

The most interesting aspect of this case, besides the unlikelyhood of ever finding an MS70 Ike, are the contortions the cataloger went through to justify an "MS70" grade. Illuminating commentary about just how candid auction catalog descriptions really are.