<< <i>Wow. A guy can get really sick of all the complaining about Mint ordering limits. There's enough sour grapes out there to make lots of "whine"...
Last time I checked, it's still a free country- and anyone who ordered these can sell them to whomever they wish, whether it's to a dealer at a moderate profit, or a collector/speculator at a larger profit. This CW article is just a hatchet job, and I don't buy that the author doesn't either deal in or collect them. There's definitely some sort of agenda here imo.
That said, CW has the right to publish opinions, even unpopular ones...and the fact that MCM spent 6 digits in advertising shouldn't dissuade them from printing what they wish to print. In fact they may have printed it to show they aren't engaging in any cronyism or favoritism.
BUT...all of THAT said... from a purely business standpoint, CW was colossally stupid to do so in my opinion. If I were in John M.'s shoes, I'd strongly reconsider my ad budgeting insofar as CW is concerned. >>
Would it matter or make a difference if people simply offered their purchases to the big buyers instead of the situation where the big buyers go out and solicit people to order specifically for them? There are probably a lot of people who wouldn't order them if it wasn't for the incentive to flip them for a quick buck.
"I believe we were the first to voluntarily start offering “bonus payments” to the loyal customers that kept their word and a deal in selling us sets at prices lower than we bought from others. Is this how a greedy company would conduct business?"
No, actually I was the first... and I believe JM recognized that in a posting he made here referring to what I did as an excellent idea and one he was also going to begin engaging in. Just saying...
Wondercoin
P.S. To that point, I was really enjoying what I was reading. I will read on now.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
"One common method of obtaining more than 5 sets is to set up many PO boxes and use many different credit cards. A single individual could end up with say 100 or more sets this way without too much difficulty. ModernCoinMart (MCM) did not do this."
I, personally, find this one the worst of the offenses and I have no problems if the people doing this get their orders cancelled.
BTW, I was the first person to suggest that those bulk buyers who made deals to 25th Anniversary sets to individual buyers to offer more money for the poor stooges who sat on the phone for hours and hours should get more than the initial offering price. The "bonus" system was a grassroots movement to help make some more money for the folks who did the heavy lifting. At the time, some dealers were making threats to those who would not deliver on the pre-procedure deals.
Perhaps someone can search and find the thread that shows this.
Edit: Oh, and wondercoin was indeed the first dealer to offer buyers more than what the original commitment called for.
Edit: Link to thread where I recommend dealers increase their buy prices, even if they have a commitment at a lower level.
<< <i>Someone in my local coin club was furious at the quick sell out because they had to work that day and had zero chance at a set and that some dealers had hundreds of sets for sale a short time later. So I think the letter expresses the sentiments for many collectors. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, so in answer to the question, no. Why would I be upset, that someone else is upset?
Personally, I think MCM played by the rules. However, I think the rules were bad and that the mint should have done a one per household limit at least for the first 24 hours. >>
There were many collectors left out of The 25th anniv set.. their anger increased exponentially when these collectors were shown dealers with 100s of sets ordered by dealers. MCM is looking out for themselves .. this still America but how much longer ?
<< <i>BTW, I was the first person to suggest that those bulk buyers who made deals to 25th Anniversary sets to individual buyers to offer more money for the poor stooges who sat on the phone for hours and hours should get more than the initial offering price. The "bonus" system was a grassroots movement to help make some more money for the folks who did the heavy lifting. At the time, some dealers were making threats to those who would not deliver on the pre-procedure deals.
<< <i>"One common method of obtaining more than 5 sets is to set up many PO boxes and use many different credit cards. A single individual could end up with say 100 or more sets this way without too much difficulty. ModernCoinMart (MCM) did not do this."
I, personally, find this one the worst of the offenses and I have no problems if the people doing this get their orders cancelled. >>
<< <i>BTW, I was the first person to suggest that those bulk buyers who made deals to 25th Anniversary sets to individual buyers to offer more money for the poor stooges who sat on the phone for hours and hours should get more than the initial offering price. The "bonus" system was a grassroots movement to help make some more money for the folks who did the heavy lifting. At the time, some dealers were making threats to those who would not deliver on the pre-procedure deals.
Perhaps someone can search and find the thread that shows this.
Edit: Oh, and wondercoin was indeed the first dealer to offer buyers more than what the original commitment called for.
Edit: Link to thread where I recommend dealers increase their buy prices, even if they have a commitment at a lower level. >>
<< <i>BTW, I was the first person to suggest that those bulk buyers who made deals to 25th Anniversary sets to individual buyers to offer more money for the poor stooges who sat on the phone for hours and hours should get more than the initial offering price. >>
That would be a nice (but not necessary) thing to do. Had the price of these coins cratered, however, would anybody be suggesting that the bulk buyers should offer something back? I'd guess not likely.
"“By having others purchase for them, MCM is the actual customer thus far exceeding the limit set by the Mint”……Really? Says who? My customer is the buyer and I am buying from them. There is no other way to interpret this. It’s their funds used to purchase, their shipping address, their US Mint account and then they are reselling to us at a profit. It’s a purchase order generated by us from our customer, not the USM."
<< “Had they advertised their buy price after the sets sold out, I would have no problem with that”. Gee, thanks, and we did for months make offers to buy and sell even after the sell out. However, we live in a competitive world and like others have customers that want certain products. Our job is to get them, not to wait for a sell out and hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive.>>
"Gee, thanks" LOLOL
No surprise you mention the good stuff.
How about the obligatory nature of your BST listing?
"YOU MUST"
<<<2) Once we have your USM order numbers it's a non reversable deal. You must deliver sealed sets, and we must pay as agreed.
5) You must ship the sets to us within two (2) business days of your receipt from the USM. >>>>
You tack it up to "Our job is to get them" and "hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive."
To call another dealer possibly more aggressive in tactic is a "pot meet kettle", IMO.
<< <i><< “Had they advertised their buy price after the sets sold out, I would have no problem with that”. Gee, thanks, and we did for months make offers to buy and sell even after the sell out. However, we live in a competitive world and like others have customers that want certain products. Our job is to get them, not to wait for a sell out and hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive.>>
"Gee, thanks" LOLOL
No surprise you mention the good stuff.
How about the obligatory nature of your BST listing?
"YOU MUST"
<<<2) Once we have your USM order numbers it's a non reversable deal. You must deliver sealed sets, and we must pay as agreed.
5) You must ship the sets to us within two (2) business days of your receipt from the USM. >>>>
You tack it up to "Our job is to get them" and "hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive."
To call another dealer possibly more aggressive in tactic is a "pot meet kettle", IMO.
My .02 >>
"Obligatory nature"? ummm...... YES. I think most people on these boards and by far most of the people we bought sets from understood that a deal is a deal and when you agree to sell you are making a deal. It isn't a casual proposition. We would never refuse to complete a transaction that we agreed to do in good faith with a customer so why would we allow it from them? It's your word. It's your bond. You can conduct your business loosey goosey if you want but that's not how we run ours. We worked with those that had legitimate reasons to back out. Other than that, "changing your mind" or "so and so is now paying more" or "my wife won't let me do it" are not valid excuses. We actually had a guy tell us his wife would not let him complete the transaction and two weeks later his coins showed up in our office from a dealer in his area that he sold them to and we bought from them. Nice....... real nice......Sorry Bub, where I come from in this business you don't make deals that you will not keep. Without that, you have nothing.
I've done business with MCM and always satistied with all transactions. I even called and asked for their buy price on a 3 set in a sealed box and the offer was really good but I did not sell. They never forced me and no salesman kept on calling me to sell - it is my decision and they respect that. CW is out of line. The magazine's quality is degrading that's why I dumped them years ago.
<< <i><< “Had they advertised their buy price after the sets sold out, I would have no problem with that”. Gee, thanks, and we did for months make offers to buy and sell even after the sell out. However, we live in a competitive world and like others have customers that want certain products. Our job is to get them, not to wait for a sell out and hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive.>>
"Gee, thanks" LOLOL
No surprise you mention the good stuff.
How about the obligatory nature of your BST listing?
"YOU MUST"
<<<2) Once we have your USM order numbers it's a non reversable deal. You must deliver sealed sets, and we must pay as agreed.
5) You must ship the sets to us within two (2) business days of your receipt from the USM. >>>>
You tack it up to "Our job is to get them" and "hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive."
To call another dealer possibly more aggressive in tactic is a "pot meet kettle", IMO.
My .02 >>
"Obligatory nature"? ummm...... YES. I think most people on these boards and by far most of the people we bought sets from understood that a deal is a deal and when you agree to sell you are making a deal. It isn't a casual proposition. We would never refuse to complete a transaction that we agreed to do in good faith with a customer so why would we allow it from them? It's your word. It's your bond. You can conduct your business loosey goosey if you want but that's not how we run ours. We worked with those that had legitimate reasons to back out. Other than that, "changing your mind" or "so and so is now paying more" or "my wife won't let me do it" are not valid excuses. We actually had a guy tell us his wife would not let him complete the transaction and two weeks later his coins showed up in our office from a dealer in his area that he sold them to and we bought from them. Nice....... real nice......Sorry Bub, where I come from in this business you don't make deals that you will not keep. Without that, you have nothing.
John >>
Nice spin.
I don't need a lecture about keeping my word on a deal on the BST. I kept my word and gave away apprx. $1500 to my dealer whom I was obligated to.
Point is, you claim to have to get the job done, etc., etc. etc.
<< <i>Sorry Bub, where I come from in this business you don't make deals that you will not keep. Without that, you have nothing. >>
If a dealer backed out of a pre-arranged deal, you'd never hear the end of it. For some reason, however, it seems that some non-dealers expect to be held to lower standards.
Bottom line- if you make a deal, you live up to it. Doesn't matter who you are.
<< <i>I will never, ever, enter into a pre-sale, pre-buy agreement with a dealer ever again.
Ever.
If a deal sounds to good to be true, it probably is.
If a dealer is pre-buying before delivery, run away.
MHO. >>
Nothing wrong with that approach. Being upset because one's deal turns out not to be as good as one thought it would be when it was initially made is not the fault of the dealer, however.
<< <i>I will never, ever, enter into a pre-sale, pre-buy agreement with a dealer ever again.
Ever.
If a deal sounds to good to be true, it probably is.
If a dealer is pre-buying before delivery, run away.
MHO. >>
I ordered and pre-sold many of the 5 ounce pucks. Many of the issues went down in price. The dealer I sold to, probably submitted them for grading and had to wait for them to come back, and almost certainly ended up with a loss after figuring in all the fees and shipping.
Sometimes a person is the bug, sometimes the windshield. Same goes for the dealers. Many of the same dealers that profited from the anniversary sets, took losses on some of the pucks.
<< <i>Sometimes a person is the bug, sometimes the windshield. Same goes for the dealers. Many of the same dealers that profited from the anniversary sets, took losses on some of the pucks. >>
Based on reading here, it appears some people have no problem with the dealer being the bug but they object when it turns ouyt they have to play that role themselves.
If I agree to buy, I'll buy provided the seller "still" wants to sell. I don't take it personally and don't take offense. If the seller decides he does not want to sell, then all I expect is a refund. I don;t get all pissy about it.
If I agree to sell, its only a done deal after I've received payment. Until then then its simply an agreement to transact business. Thats the way it works on eBay and the last time I checked, thats the way it works with other auction houses.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>If I agree to buy, I'll buy provided the seller "still" wants to sell. I don't take it personally and don't take offense. If the seller decides he does not want to sell, then all I expect is a refund. I don;t get all pissy about it.
If I agree to sell, its only a done deal after I've received payment. Until then then its simply an agreement to transact business. Thats the way it works on eBay and the last time I checked, thats the way it works with other auction houses. >>
That's one way of looking at it. The statements seem to contradict each other a bit though.
If you placed a buy order for 10,000 shares of Bank of America at say $7 and days later (say the price is now $9 by the way) received an email from your broker saying they no longer wish to complete the transaction for whatever reason would you still not be upset?
On the flip side, you say that if you are selling it is an agreement to transact business that you will honor so long as payment is received. If the terms of that sell transaction are payment on receipt of goods then that's what you would have agreed to. So going back to the first scenario where you are the buyer, why would you not hold the seller to the same standards that you yourself use to conduct business?
I agree with the bug and the windshield analogy in taking risks, and I agree that dealers don't get to change their mind without serious damage to their reputation, and neither should the parties that enter into agreements with them. How would you feel if you placed an order (an agreement to buy) for bullion or rare coins and were later informed by the dealer that he no longer wished to complete the transaction? Not because of an honest mistake or because he was unable to get the merchandise, he has the merchandise in his showcase in his shop, he simply changed his mind.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>If I agree to buy, I'll buy provided the seller "still" wants to sell. I don't take it personally and don't take offense. If the seller decides he does not want to sell, then all I expect is a refund. I don;t get all pissy about it.
If I agree to sell, its only a done deal after I've received payment. Until then then its simply an agreement to transact business. Thats the way it works on eBay and the last time I checked, thats the way it works with other auction houses. >>
That's one way of looking at it. The statements seem to contradict each other a bit though.
If you placed a buy order for 10,000 shares of Bank of America at say $7 and days later (say the price is now $9 by the way) received an email from your broker saying they no longer wish to complete the transaction for whatever reason would you still not be upset?
On the flip side, you say that if you are selling it is an agreement to transact business that you will honor so long as payment is received. If the terms of that sell transaction are payment on receipt of goods then that's what you would have agreed to. So going back to the first scenario where you are the buyer, why would you not hold the seller to the same standards that you yourself use to conduct business?
I agree with the bug and the windshield analogy in taking risks, and I agree that dealers don't get to change their mind without serious damage to their reputation, and neither should the parties that enter into agreements with them. How would you feel if you placed an order (an agreement to buy) for bullion or rare coins and were later informed by the dealer that he no longer wished to complete the transaction? Not because of an honest mistake or because he was unable to get the merchandise, he has the merchandise in his showcase in his shop, he simply changed his mind.
John >>
I agree that if one reads and understands the terms and then agrees to those terms that a deal is a deal. That being said, if party A undertakes a risk on the behalf/behest of party B [which is the sitchiashun we have here when you ask others to order for you] is there an implied obligation on the part of party B to ensure that party A doesn't lose money or at least breaks even?
If you placed a buy order for 10,000 shares of Bank of America at say $7 and days later (say the price is now $9 by the way) received an email from your broker saying they no longer wish to complete the transaction for whatever reason would you still not be upset?
In that case, you are actually purchasing the stock with real money, not a promise. The money and stock shares are exchanged immediately. Additionally, if either party changes his/her mind, there is the ability to easily go back into the market and buy/sell at market prices. It is a huge mistake, on many levels, to compare this to a stock purchase.
In the case of the purchase of a mint order to be delivered in the future, lots of things could happen in the several weeks between the agreement and the delivery of the coins, including the coin firm going under. What if the coin firm purchased too many of these and could not make payments to the original buyer? The buyer gets stuck holding the bag.
In the future, if coin firms want buyers from the Mint to commit to selling the product, they should have both parties sign a contract and should pay the buyer for the advanced purchase at the time of the agreement. The way the deal works now places all of the risk on the buyer and most of the reward with the coin firm, IMO.
This has probably already been said more than once, but the US Mint is the party that needs to be addressed concerning the ordering process/household limits/coin mintages, etc. Lots of people took advantage of the 100K mintage "guaranteed to make money on the secondary market" by getting friends and relatives to order boxes for them (no different from MCM) except they might have had to re-negotiate the price with Mom to keep peace in the family.
If the CW author is so upset by MCM's supposed "greed," then he must be completely unconsolable about the marketplace's failure to 1099 sellers and the subsequent failure to report taxable gains on these sets. If author wants to talk about greed and illegal activity, that's where it's at, plain and simple.
<< <i>This has probably already been said more than once, but the US Mint is the party that needs to be addressed concerning the ordering process/household limits/coin mintages, etc. Lots of people took advantage of the 100K mintage "guaranteed to make money on the secondary market" by getting friends and relatives to order boxes for them (no different from MCM) except they might have had to re-negotiate the price with Mom to keep peace in the family. >>
In hind site it was guaranteed. There were a lot of knowledgeable folks on this board going back and forth as to how fast they would sell out etc. There were a lot of folks that questioned. Sure now looking back it was a lock. So was the 33,000 mintage atb's. I was right about these, I was wrong about the ATB's. People locked in a price with the dealers because they didn't know what was going to happen and felt it better to take the profit provided. Turned out to be a very different situation. Don't blame the dealers. They put out a price based on an unknown. People stepped forward and said "I'll take that price". A deal is a deal is a deal. If you want to take the chance and profit or sometimes lose then don't step forward. NO one held a gun to their heads to make the deal.
Currently working with nurmaler. Older transactions....circa 2011 BST transactions Gecko109, Segoja, lpinion, Agblox, oldgumballmachineswanted,pragmaticgoat, CharlieC, onlyroosies, timrutnat, ShinyThingsInPM under login lightcycler
<< <i>This has probably already been said more than once, but the US Mint is the party that needs to be addressed concerning the ordering process/household limits/coin mintages, etc. Lots of people took advantage of the 100K mintage "guaranteed to make money on the secondary market" by getting friends and relatives to order boxes for them (no different from MCM) except they might have had to re-negotiate the price with Mom to keep peace in the family. >>
In hind site it was guaranteed. There were a lot of knowledgeable folks on this board going back and forth as to how fast they would sell out etc. There were a lot of folks that questioned. Sure now looking back it was a lock. So was the 33,000 mintage atb's. I was right about these, I was wrong about the ATB's. People locked in a price with the dealers because they didn't know what was going to happen and felt it better to take the profit provided. Turned out to be a very different situation. Don't blame the dealers. They put out a price based on an unknown. People stepped forward and said "I'll take that price". A deal is a deal is a deal. If you want to take the chance and profit or sometimes lose then don't step forward. NO one held a gun to their heads to make the deal. >>
Well, since the offers were contingent upon you being able to order the coins, actually a deal wasn't a deal [at least for the ones fostered here] until you provided the buyer with your order confirmation number that you got from the mint. There was no obligation on your part to give that number even if you got one, however giving it consummated the deal. After 3 or 4 hours of trying to to get through, the smart ones [myself included] shudda said WHOA!!! these things are gonna be center of the sun HOT; maybe I don't want to sell now.
IMHO...the bottom line here is that if you made a decent attempt on ASE25 launch day, you were very likely rewarded by being able to place an order...but if you were late to the game, it was a crap shoot. And all the venom now is just sour grapes or Monday morning football.
So that having been said, do I want the Mint to produce everything to demand to "assure adequate quantities"? Absolutely not (if I wanted that I'd still be collecting baseball cards)!
Do I want them to implement a (pre-internet style) GSA Morgan sale/lottery system? Definitely not (this is the 21st Century, isn't it)?
Do I want them to set a totally lame 1 or 2 per household limit? Ah, no...although I'm a long-time third generation collector, I'd still like to at least hope to make a few dollars in this hobby every once and a while.
However, do I expect the Mint to overreact to all this negative publicity and actually implement some of the stupidity I listed above...ABSOLUTELY...in fact, I'd be willing to bet we're stuck with either an extremely low order limit or a lottery (in which case, I will simply expand my circle of friends, family and co-workers the next time around).
<< <i>This has probably already been said more than once, but the US Mint is the party that needs to be addressed concerning the ordering process/household limits/coin mintages, etc. Lots of people took advantage of the 100K mintage "guaranteed to make money on the secondary market" by getting friends and relatives to order boxes for them (no different from MCM) except they might have had to re-negotiate the price with Mom to keep peace in the family. >>
In hind site it was guaranteed. There were a lot of knowledgeable folks on this board going back and forth as to how fast they would sell out etc. There were a lot of folks that questioned. Sure now looking back it was a lock. So was the 33,000 mintage atb's. I was right about these, I was wrong about the ATB's. People locked in a price with the dealers because they didn't know what was going to happen and felt it better to take the profit provided. Turned out to be a very different situation. Don't blame the dealers. They put out a price based on an unknown. People stepped forward and said "I'll take that price". A deal is a deal is a deal. If you want to take the chance and profit or sometimes lose then don't step forward. NO one held a gun to their heads to make the deal. >>
Well, since the offers were contingent upon you being able to order the coins, actually a deal wasn't a deal [at least for the ones fostered here] until you provided the buyer with your order confirmation number that you got from the mint. There was no obligation on your part to give that number even if you got one, however giving it consummated the deal. After 3 or 4 hours of trying to to get through, the smart ones [myself included] shudda said WHOA!!! these things are gonna be center of the sun HOT; maybe I don't want to sell now. >>
When you figure how hard it was for many to get sets, that might have been a basis for renegotiating the price, with asking more for the extra man hours involved. But the deal should have been consummated if you said you would sell them. The issue is should MCM be singled out for pre-buying (regardless of price).
I understand where the empty handers are coming from. I took the day off and dialed every 10 seconds for 2 hours and finally got though to the site where I ordered my limit. I prepared knowing it was going to be chaos getting these. MCM did what many others did, where are their names? I've done business with MCM, no issues, no BS.
MCM did what many others did, where are their names?
Is it not possible that this was the only name the author knew? Other than some forum nicknames, I did not at the time, and still do not, know of any others.
<< <i>MCM did what many others did, where are their names?
Is it not possible that this was the only name the author knew? Other than some forum nicknames, I did not at the time, and still do not, know of any others. >>
Segoja aka James Sego [he had the best offer IMO] Wondercoin [post of 10/24/2011 not specific now] Coinfame on the hockey pucks [I don't recall their asking to prepurchase the 25th coins] and prolly some others. If I have listed your name in error PLMK and I will acknowledge and remove same.
<< <i>This has probably already been said more than once, but the US Mint is the party that needs to be addressed concerning the ordering process/household limits/coin mintages, etc. Lots of people took advantage of the 100K mintage "guaranteed to make money on the secondary market" by getting friends and relatives to order boxes for them (no different from MCM) except they might have had to re-negotiate the price with Mom to keep peace in the family. >>
In hind site it was guaranteed. There were a lot of knowledgeable folks on this board going back and forth as to how fast they would sell out etc. There were a lot of folks that questioned. Sure now looking back it was a lock. So was the 33,000 mintage atb's. I was right about these, I was wrong about the ATB's. People locked in a price with the dealers because they didn't know what was going to happen and felt it better to take the profit provided. Turned out to be a very different situation. Don't blame the dealers. They put out a price based on an unknown. People stepped forward and said "I'll take that price". A deal is a deal is a deal. If you want to take the chance and profit or sometimes lose then don't step forward. NO one held a gun to their heads to make the deal. >>
Well, since the offers were contingent upon you being able to order the coins, actually a deal wasn't a deal [at least for the ones fostered here] until you provided the buyer with your order confirmation number that you got from the mint. There was no obligation on your part to give that number even if you got one, however giving it consummated the deal. After 3 or 4 hours of trying to to get through, the smart ones [myself included] shudda said WHOA!!! these things are gonna be center of the sun HOT; maybe I don't want to sell now. >>
When you figure how hard it was for many to get sets, that might have been a basis for renegotiating the price, with asking more for the extra man hours involved. But the deal should have been consummated if you said you would sell them. The issue is should MCM be singled out for pre-buying (regardless of price). >>
If you contacted the buyer and said that you didn't wish to sell they would likely have been ok with that. If you lied and said you that you didn't get and order and later they found out that you did, that isn't so cool.
<< <i>MCM did what many others did, where are their names?
Is it not possible that this was the only name the author knew? Other than some forum nicknames, I did not at the time, and still do not, know of any others. >>
Segoja aka James Sego [he had the best offer IMO] Wondercoin [post of 10/24/2011 not specific now] Coinfame on the hockey pucks [I don't recall their asking to prepurchase the 25th coins] and prolly some others. If I have listed your name in error PLMK and I will acknowledge and remove same. >>
Like I said, other than some forum folks, I knew of no other firms making offers. Assuming that the author of the editorial does not participate here, it is quite possible that MCM was the only name he knew that was buying the coins. As a collector, he probably does not have access to all of the dealer networks, etc.
<< <i>MCM did what many others did, where are their names?
Is it not possible that this was the only name the author knew? Other than some forum nicknames, I did not at the time, and still do not, know of any others. >>
Segoja aka James Sego [he had the best offer IMO] Wondercoin [post of 10/24/2011 not specific now] Coinfame on the hockey pucks [I don't recall their asking to prepurchase the 25th coins] and prolly some others. If I have listed your name in error PLMK and I will acknowledge and remove same. >>
....... and these are just SOME of the forum members.... I could add to that another 20 to 25 dealers I am aware (not forum members) of that sent out emails buying or posted on networks. But I won't... why should I? The point is and you are correct, I should NOT have been singled out and I did not do anything wrong, and I did not deserve to be drug through the mud.
With the exception of opinions from two other members who are posting in this thread I think that is pretty much the consensus.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
IMHO (but, I only have a business degree, so what do I know when compared to the smart folks running the USMint?), the USMint would be best off by NOT announcing any mintages until after the fact. Special issues or not. They should do like they did with the UHR on "hot" issues......set a household limit, make the coins "to demand" and not announce a max mintage. Particularly with precious metal/popular items.
Unless/until they do this, there will be problems and collectors will be screwed and flippers will flip.
RYK: You may be correct. If you refer back to the Coin World article which appeared on the cover of the Nov 14th 2011 issue, I believe MCM was named specifically by the Coin World author. Possibly why they were then singled out in the commentary as well?
Bajerfan: Since you mentioned my name specifically, regarding your comment on the "best offer", I still stand by the way I handle my regular established customers who are OK with waiting for a payout (and the risk things can go wrong) as opposed to a prompt and quick "flip". A couple newer customers (board members) tried this method as well. Instead of taking in $60, $85 or even $100/set quick profit in this case, those customers essentially get 50% of the profit I generate selling their coins. Granted it takes a lot more time to complete the final "settlement" as all the coins need to be sold off for the customer, but it ensures that my profit is essentially the same as my customer's profit (unless otherwise agreed to), which I personally think is very smart business when dealing with ones very best customers.
Wondercoin
edited to add ... when things went terribly wrong with the ATB's the Mint sold last year, so that I had to report a loss to some of my established customers who asked me to sell their coins for 50% of the profit, one board member insisted that I split the loss with him rather than pay it all out myself. For everyone else, I just "ate" the entire loss. I figured that was just the right thing to do under those circumstances ... no guarantee I will do it on the next deal
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
RYK: You may be correct. If you refer back to the Coin World article which appeared on the cover of the Nov 14th 2011 issue, I believe MCM was named specifically by the Coin World author. Possibly why they were then singled out in the commentary as well?
Quite possible. Again, I am pretty active on the coin scene and were it not for my participation here, I would not have known of any other dealer buyers.
BTW, I like the 50% profit split idea. Sign me up for it next time.
<< <i>RYK: You may be correct. If you refer back to the Coin World article which appeared on the cover of the Nov 14th 2011 issue, I believe MCM was named specifically by the Coin World author. Possibly why they were then singled out in the commentary as well?
Bajerfan: Since you mentioned my name specifically, regarding your comment on the "best offer", I still stand by the way I handle my regular established customers who are OK with waiting for a payout (and the risk things can go wrong) as opposed to a prompt and quick "flip". A couple newer customers (board members) tried this method as well. Instead of taking in $60, $85 or even $100/set quick profit in this case, those customers essentially get 50% of the profit I generate selling their coins. Granted it takes a lot more time to complete the final "settlement" as all the coins need to be sold off for the customer, but it ensures that my profit is essentially the same as my customer's profit (unless otherwise agreed to), which I personally think is very smart business when dealing with ones very best customers.
Wondercoin
edited to add ... when things went terribly wrong with the ATB's the Mint sold last year, so that I had to report a loss to some of my established customers who asked me to sell their coins for 50% of the profit, one board member insisted that I split the loss with him rather than pay it all out myself. For everyone else, I just "ate" the entire loss. I figured that was just the right thing to do under those circumstances ... no guarantee I will do it on the next deal >>
I probably should have read closer not mentioned any forum members since they were already known to RYK. I wasn't aware of offers regarding a profit sharing/split being involved. Of the two offers, one for cash the other for a graded set, the graded set was IMO the better offer.
Speaking as an often satisfied customer of MCM...I'll just add this...just for the sake of argument, what exactly is the difference if MCM (or anyone else) offered a $50 bounty per set back in November or a $1,000 per set bounty today? No difference, except for the price paid by MCM and the profit realized by the seller.
And the end result is the same...MCM will have purchased an adequate supply on the SECONDARY market. No harm, no foul...except for those squeezing the sour grapes. Still seems like a pretty sharp (and legitimate) business decision in my book.
<< <i>RYK: You may be correct. If you refer back to the Coin World article which appeared on the cover of the Nov 14th 2011 issue, I believe MCM was named specifically by the Coin World author. Possibly why they were then singled out in the commentary as well?
Quite possible. Again, I am pretty active on the coin scene and were it not for my participation here, I would not have known of any other dealer buyers.
BTW, I like the 50% profit split idea. Sign me up for it next time. >>
How does that work? He buys the coins from you at cost and gets them graded? That means that set now has a cost basis of about $900 or less depending on his bulk rate. It sells for $1500. A friend I know in the chem biz will take that $600 markup and lop 60% off the top as his basic business expense. What's left is $240 profit to split up, is that pretty close?
<< <i>Speaking as an often satisfied customer of MCM...I'll just add this...just for the sake of argument, what exactly is the difference if MCM (or anyone else) offered a $50 bounty per set back in November or a $1,000 per set bounty today? No difference, except for the price paid by MCM and the profit realized by the seller.
And the end result is the same...MCM will have purchased an adequate supply on the SECONDARY market. No harm, no foul...except for those squeezing the sour grapes. Still seems like a pretty sharp (and legitimate) business decision in my book. >>
I've got no beef with MCM (or any of the others on the forum that did this) but to answer your question, the only thing I could see is how it is perceived and that, in doing what was done, it was prompting folks who were ONLY in it for the quick flip, who otherwise might not have risked making the purchase (or hadn't known about it), to buy in a mad crush on the mint's ordering system; thereby knocking out others who did know about it and maybe just wanted it for their own collection.
If the offer to buy is made after a purchase choice was already decided upon and made, then it isn't seen as manipulation. In this case, the folks complaining probably do see it is as market manipulation at a detriment to them being able to purchase from the mint, at original pricing. By doing the pre-order with a guaranteed payment, once could reasonably argue that those folks were functioning as agents to the end dealer/person making them the offer.
Again, no beef from me either way, but I do see both sides.
"That means that set now has a cost basis of about $900 or less depending on his bulk rate."
Bajerfan... Please just PM me to discuss the details as this is not the place to do so. Just one quick comment to address your math eror .. if a set costs $300 from the mint and $150 to grade (hypothetically), the cost is $450/set total, not $900/set.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>Speaking as an often satisfied customer of MCM...I'll just add this...just for the sake of argument, what exactly is the difference if MCM (or anyone else) offered a $50 bounty per set back in November or a $1,000 per set bounty today? No difference, except for the price paid by MCM and the profit realized by the seller.
And the end result is the same...MCM will have purchased an adequate supply on the SECONDARY market. No harm, no foul...except for those squeezing the sour grapes. Still seems like a pretty sharp (and legitimate) business decision in my book. >>
I've got no beef with MCM (or any of the others on the forum that did this) but to answer your question, the only thing I could see is how it is perceived and that, in doing what was done, it was prompting folks who were ONLY in it for the quick flip, who otherwise might not have risked making the purchase (or hadn't known about it), to buy in a mad crush on the mint's ordering system; thereby knocking out others who did know about it and maybe just wanted it for their own collection.
If the offer to buy is made after a purchase choice was already decided upon and made, then it isn't seen as manipulation. In this case, the folks complaining probably do see it is as market manipulation at a detriment to them being able to purchase from the mint, at original pricing. By doing the pre-order with a guaranteed payment, once could reasonably argue that those folks were functioning as agents to the end dealer/person making them the offer.
Again, no beef from me either way, but I do see both sides. >>
I think I made the same point a page or two back.
BTW if anyone replied to one of these offers with a PM sent, did you get any inquiries from other buyers AFTER that?
Comments
<< <i>Wow. A guy can get really sick of all the complaining about Mint ordering limits. There's enough sour grapes out there to make lots of "whine"...
Last time I checked, it's still a free country- and anyone who ordered these can sell them to whomever they wish, whether it's to a dealer at a moderate profit, or a collector/speculator at a larger profit.
This CW article is just a hatchet job, and I don't buy that the author doesn't either deal in or collect them. There's definitely some sort of agenda here imo.
That said, CW has the right to publish opinions, even unpopular ones...and the fact that MCM spent 6 digits in advertising shouldn't dissuade them from printing what they wish to print. In fact they may have printed it to show they aren't engaging in any cronyism or favoritism.
BUT...all of THAT said... from a purely business standpoint, CW was colossally stupid to do so in my opinion. If I were in John M.'s shoes, I'd strongly reconsider my ad budgeting insofar as CW is concerned. >>
Would it matter or make a difference if people simply offered their purchases to the big buyers instead of the situation where the big buyers go out and solicit people to order specifically for them? There are probably a lot of people who wouldn't order them if it wasn't for the incentive to flip them for a quick buck.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
ModernCoinMart Responds
Thanks,
John
No, actually I was the first... and I believe JM recognized that in a posting he made here referring to what I did as an excellent idea and one he was also going to begin engaging in. Just saying...
Wondercoin
P.S. To that point, I was really enjoying what I was reading. I will read on now.
I, personally, find this one the worst of the offenses and I have no problems if the people doing this get their orders cancelled.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>As promised here is the rebottle link:
ModernCoinMart Responds
Thanks,
John >>
rebuttal, no?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>
<< <i>As promised here is the rebottle link:
ModernCoinMart Responds
Thanks,
John >>
rebuttal, no? >>
I need another beer before I read the rebuttal, so I am going to rebottle.
Maybe Sperber's team is posting for JM.
Perhaps someone can search and find the thread that shows this.
Edit: Oh, and wondercoin was indeed the first dealer to offer buyers more than what the original commitment called for.
Edit: Link to thread where I recommend dealers increase their buy prices, even if they have a commitment at a lower level.
<< <i>Someone in my local coin club was furious at the quick sell out because they had to work that day and had zero chance at a set and that some dealers had hundreds of sets for sale a short time later. So I think the letter expresses the sentiments for many collectors. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, so in answer to the question, no. Why would I be upset, that someone else is upset?
Personally, I think MCM played by the rules. However, I think the rules were bad and that the mint should have done a one per household limit at least for the first 24 hours. >>
There were many collectors left out of The 25th anniv set.. their anger increased exponentially when these collectors were shown dealers with 100s of sets ordered by dealers.
MCM is looking out for themselves .. this still America but how much longer ?
<< <i>BTW, I was the first person to suggest that those bulk buyers who made deals to 25th Anniversary sets to individual buyers to offer more money for the poor stooges who sat on the phone for hours and hours should get more than the initial offering price. The "bonus" system was a grassroots movement to help make some more money for the folks who did the heavy lifting. At the time, some dealers were making threats to those who would not deliver on the pre-procedure deals.
>>
This.
+1
<< <i>"One common method of obtaining more than 5 sets is to set up many PO boxes and use many different credit cards. A single individual could end up with say 100 or more sets this way without too much difficulty. ModernCoinMart (MCM) did not do this."
I, personally, find this one the worst of the offenses and I have no problems if the people doing this get their orders cancelled. >>
<< <i>BTW, I was the first person to suggest that those bulk buyers who made deals to 25th Anniversary sets to individual buyers to offer more money for the poor stooges who sat on the phone for hours and hours should get more than the initial offering price. The "bonus" system was a grassroots movement to help make some more money for the folks who did the heavy lifting. At the time, some dealers were making threats to those who would not deliver on the pre-procedure deals.
Perhaps someone can search and find the thread that shows this.
Edit: Oh, and wondercoin was indeed the first dealer to offer buyers more than what the original commitment called for.
Edit: Link to thread where I recommend dealers increase their buy prices, even if they have a commitment at a lower level. >>
RYK for prez!!!!
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>BTW, I was the first person to suggest that those bulk buyers who made deals to 25th Anniversary sets to individual buyers to offer more money for the poor stooges who sat on the phone for hours and hours should get more than the initial offering price. >>
That would be a nice (but not necessary) thing to do. Had the price of these coins cratered, however, would anybody be suggesting that the bulk buyers should offer something back? I'd guess not likely.
<< <i>As promised here is the rebuttal link:
ModernCoinMart Responds
Thanks,
John >>
EXCELLENT REBUTTAL!! Spot on.
Is this not the bottom line??
"“By having others purchase for them, MCM is the actual customer thus far exceeding the limit set by the Mint”……Really? Says who? My customer is the buyer and I am buying from them. There is no other way to interpret this. It’s their funds used to purchase, their shipping address, their US Mint account and then they are reselling to us at a profit. It’s a purchase order generated by us from our customer, not the USM."
"Gee, thanks" LOLOL
No surprise you mention the good stuff.
How about the obligatory nature of your BST listing?
"YOU MUST"
<<<2) Once we have your USM order numbers it's a non reversable deal. You must deliver sealed sets, and we must pay as agreed.
5) You must ship the sets to us within two (2) business days of your receipt from the USM. >>>>
You tack it up to "Our job is to get them" and "hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive."
To call another dealer possibly more aggressive in tactic is a "pot meet kettle", IMO.
My .02
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>As promised here is the rebottle link:
ModernCoinMart Responds
Thanks,
John >>
rebuttal, no? >>
I need another beer before I read the rebuttal, so I am going to rebottle.
Maybe Sperber's team is posting for JM.
I offered to be Laura's proofreader but never got a reply.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i><< “Had they advertised their buy price after the sets sold out, I would have no problem with that”. Gee, thanks, and we did for months make offers to buy and sell even after the sell out. However, we live in a competitive world and like others have customers that want certain products. Our job is to get them, not to wait for a sell out and hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive.>>
"Gee, thanks" LOLOL
No surprise you mention the good stuff.
How about the obligatory nature of your BST listing?
"YOU MUST"
<<<2) Once we have your USM order numbers it's a non reversable deal. You must deliver sealed sets, and we must pay as agreed.
5) You must ship the sets to us within two (2) business days of your receipt from the USM. >>>>
You tack it up to "Our job is to get them" and "hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive."
To call another dealer possibly more aggressive in tactic is a "pot meet kettle", IMO.
My .02 >>
"Obligatory nature"? ummm...... YES. I think most people on these boards and by far most of the people we bought sets from understood that a deal is a deal and when you agree to sell you are making a deal. It isn't a casual proposition. We would never refuse to complete a transaction that we agreed to do in good faith with a customer so why would we allow it from them? It's your word. It's your bond. You can conduct your business loosey goosey if you want but that's not how we run ours. We worked with those that had legitimate reasons to back out. Other than that, "changing your mind" or "so and so is now paying more" or "my wife won't let me do it" are not valid excuses. We actually had a guy tell us his wife would not let him complete the transaction and two weeks later his coins showed up in our office from a dealer in his area that he sold them to and we bought from them. Nice....... real nice......Sorry Bub, where I come from in this business you don't make deals that you will not keep. Without that, you have nothing.
John
CW is out of line. The magazine's quality is degrading that's why I dumped them years ago.
Keep up the good work MCM!
<< <i>
<< <i><< “Had they advertised their buy price after the sets sold out, I would have no problem with that”. Gee, thanks, and we did for months make offers to buy and sell even after the sell out. However, we live in a competitive world and like others have customers that want certain products. Our job is to get them, not to wait for a sell out and hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive.>>
"Gee, thanks" LOLOL
No surprise you mention the good stuff.
How about the obligatory nature of your BST listing?
"YOU MUST"
<<<2) Once we have your USM order numbers it's a non reversable deal. You must deliver sealed sets, and we must pay as agreed.
5) You must ship the sets to us within two (2) business days of your receipt from the USM. >>>>
You tack it up to "Our job is to get them" and "hope we don’t lose the customer that got the set from a dealer who was more aggressive."
To call another dealer possibly more aggressive in tactic is a "pot meet kettle", IMO.
My .02 >>
"Obligatory nature"? ummm...... YES. I think most people on these boards and by far most of the people we bought sets from understood that a deal is a deal and when you agree to sell you are making a deal. It isn't a casual proposition. We would never refuse to complete a transaction that we agreed to do in good faith with a customer so why would we allow it from them? It's your word. It's your bond. You can conduct your business loosey goosey if you want but that's not how we run ours. We worked with those that had legitimate reasons to back out. Other than that, "changing your mind" or "so and so is now paying more" or "my wife won't let me do it" are not valid excuses. We actually had a guy tell us his wife would not let him complete the transaction and two weeks later his coins showed up in our office from a dealer in his area that he sold them to and we bought from them. Nice....... real nice......Sorry Bub, where I come from in this business you don't make deals that you will not keep. Without that, you have nothing.
John >>
Nice spin.
I don't need a lecture about keeping my word on a deal on the BST. I kept my word and gave away apprx. $1500 to my dealer whom I was obligated to.
Point is, you claim to have to get the job done, etc., etc. etc.
I think you are disingenuous.
<< <i>Sorry Bub, where I come from in this business you don't make deals that you will not keep. Without that, you have nothing. >>
If a dealer backed out of a pre-arranged deal, you'd never hear the end of it. For some reason, however, it seems that some non-dealers expect to be held to lower standards.
Bottom line- if you make a deal, you live up to it. Doesn't matter who you are.
<< <i>I kept my word and gave away apprx. $1500 to my dealer whom I was obligated to. >>
Assuming you got from your dealer what you both agreed you'd get, you didn't give away anything.
Ever.
If a deal sounds to good to be true, it probably is.
If a dealer is pre-buying before delivery, run away.
MHO.
<< <i>I will never, ever, enter into a pre-sale, pre-buy agreement with a dealer ever again.
Ever.
If a deal sounds to good to be true, it probably is.
If a dealer is pre-buying before delivery, run away.
MHO. >>
Nothing wrong with that approach. Being upset because one's deal turns out not to be as good as one thought it would be when it was initially made is not the fault of the dealer, however.
<< <i>I will never, ever, enter into a pre-sale, pre-buy agreement with a dealer ever again.
Ever.
If a deal sounds to good to be true, it probably is.
If a dealer is pre-buying before delivery, run away.
MHO. >>
I ordered and pre-sold many of the 5 ounce pucks. Many of the issues went down in price. The dealer I sold to, probably submitted them for grading and had to wait for them to come back, and almost certainly ended up with a loss after figuring in all the fees and shipping.
Sometimes a person is the bug, sometimes the windshield. Same goes for the dealers. Many of the same dealers that profited from the anniversary sets, took losses on some of the pucks.
<< <i>Sometimes a person is the bug, sometimes the windshield. Same goes for the dealers. Many of the same dealers that profited from the anniversary sets, took losses on some of the pucks. >>
Based on reading here, it appears some people have no problem with the dealer being the bug but they object when it turns ouyt they have to play that role themselves.
If I agree to sell, its only a done deal after I've received payment. Until then then its simply an agreement to transact business. Thats the way it works on eBay and the last time I checked, thats the way it works with other auction houses.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>If I agree to buy, I'll buy provided the seller "still" wants to sell. I don't take it personally and don't take offense. If the seller decides he does not want to sell, then all I expect is a refund. I don;t get all pissy about it.
If I agree to sell, its only a done deal after I've received payment. Until then then its simply an agreement to transact business. Thats the way it works on eBay and the last time I checked, thats the way it works with other auction houses. >>
That's one way of looking at it. The statements seem to contradict each other a bit though.
If you placed a buy order for 10,000 shares of Bank of America at say $7 and days later (say the price is now $9 by the way) received an email from your broker saying they no longer wish to complete the transaction for whatever reason would you still not be upset?
On the flip side, you say that if you are selling it is an agreement to transact business that you will honor so long as payment is received. If the terms of that sell transaction are payment on receipt of goods then that's what you would have agreed to. So going back to the first scenario where you are the buyer, why would you not hold the seller to the same standards that you yourself use to conduct business?
I agree with the bug and the windshield analogy in taking risks, and I agree that dealers don't get to change their mind without serious damage to their reputation, and neither should the parties that enter into agreements with them. How would you feel if you placed an order (an agreement to buy) for bullion or rare coins and were later informed by the dealer that he no longer wished to complete the transaction? Not because of an honest mistake or because he was unable to get the merchandise, he has the merchandise in his showcase in his shop, he simply changed his mind.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
<< <i>
<< <i>If I agree to buy, I'll buy provided the seller "still" wants to sell. I don't take it personally and don't take offense. If the seller decides he does not want to sell, then all I expect is a refund. I don;t get all pissy about it.
If I agree to sell, its only a done deal after I've received payment. Until then then its simply an agreement to transact business. Thats the way it works on eBay and the last time I checked, thats the way it works with other auction houses. >>
That's one way of looking at it. The statements seem to contradict each other a bit though.
If you placed a buy order for 10,000 shares of Bank of America at say $7 and days later (say the price is now $9 by the way) received an email from your broker saying they no longer wish to complete the transaction for whatever reason would you still not be upset?
On the flip side, you say that if you are selling it is an agreement to transact business that you will honor so long as payment is received. If the terms of that sell transaction are payment on receipt of goods then that's what you would have agreed to. So going back to the first scenario where you are the buyer, why would you not hold the seller to the same standards that you yourself use to conduct business?
I agree with the bug and the windshield analogy in taking risks, and I agree that dealers don't get to change their mind without serious damage to their reputation, and neither should the parties that enter into agreements with them. How would you feel if you placed an order (an agreement to buy) for bullion or rare coins and were later informed by the dealer that he no longer wished to complete the transaction? Not because of an honest mistake or because he was unable to get the merchandise, he has the merchandise in his showcase in his shop, he simply changed his mind.
John >>
I agree that if one reads and understands the terms and then agrees to those terms that a deal is a deal. That being said, if party A undertakes a risk on the behalf/behest of party B [which is the sitchiashun we have here when you ask others to order for you] is there an implied obligation on the part of party B to ensure that party A doesn't lose money or at least breaks even?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
In that case, you are actually purchasing the stock with real money, not a promise. The money and stock shares are exchanged immediately. Additionally, if either party changes his/her mind, there is the ability to easily go back into the market and buy/sell at market prices. It is a huge mistake, on many levels, to compare this to a stock purchase.
In the case of the purchase of a mint order to be delivered in the future, lots of things could happen in the several weeks between the agreement and the delivery of the coins, including the coin firm going under. What if the coin firm purchased too many of these and could not make payments to the original buyer? The buyer gets stuck holding the bag.
In the future, if coin firms want buyers from the Mint to commit to selling the product, they should have both parties sign a contract and should pay the buyer for the advanced purchase at the time of the agreement. The way the deal works now places all of the risk on the buyer and most of the reward with the coin firm, IMO.
<< <i>This has probably already been said more than once, but the US Mint is the party that needs to be addressed concerning the ordering process/household limits/coin mintages, etc. Lots of people took advantage of the 100K mintage "guaranteed to make money on the secondary market" by getting friends and relatives to order boxes for them (no different from MCM) except they might have had to re-negotiate the price with Mom to keep peace in the family.
In hind site it was guaranteed. There were a lot of knowledgeable folks on this board going back and forth as to how fast they would sell out etc. There were a lot of folks that questioned. Sure now looking back it was a lock. So was the 33,000 mintage atb's. I was right about these, I was wrong about the ATB's. People locked in a price with the dealers because they didn't know what was going to happen and felt it better to take the profit provided. Turned out to be a very different situation. Don't blame the dealers. They put out a price based on an unknown. People stepped forward and said "I'll take that price". A deal is a deal is a deal. If you want to take the chance and profit or sometimes lose then don't step forward. NO one held a gun to their heads to make the deal.
<< <i>
<< <i>This has probably already been said more than once, but the US Mint is the party that needs to be addressed concerning the ordering process/household limits/coin mintages, etc. Lots of people took advantage of the 100K mintage "guaranteed to make money on the secondary market" by getting friends and relatives to order boxes for them (no different from MCM) except they might have had to re-negotiate the price with Mom to keep peace in the family.
In hind site it was guaranteed. There were a lot of knowledgeable folks on this board going back and forth as to how fast they would sell out etc. There were a lot of folks that questioned. Sure now looking back it was a lock. So was the 33,000 mintage atb's. I was right about these, I was wrong about the ATB's. People locked in a price with the dealers because they didn't know what was going to happen and felt it better to take the profit provided. Turned out to be a very different situation. Don't blame the dealers. They put out a price based on an unknown. People stepped forward and said "I'll take that price". A deal is a deal is a deal. If you want to take the chance and profit or sometimes lose then don't step forward. NO one held a gun to their heads to make the deal. >>
Well, since the offers were contingent upon you being able to order the coins, actually a deal wasn't a deal [at least for the ones fostered here] until you provided the buyer with your order confirmation number that you got from the mint. There was no obligation on your part to give that number even if you got one, however giving it consummated the deal. After 3 or 4 hours of trying to to get through, the smart ones [myself included] shudda said WHOA!!! these things are gonna be center of the sun HOT; maybe I don't want to sell now.
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So that having been said, do I want the Mint to produce everything to demand to "assure adequate quantities"? Absolutely not (if I wanted that I'd still be collecting baseball cards)!
Do I want them to implement a (pre-internet style) GSA Morgan sale/lottery system? Definitely not (this is the 21st Century, isn't it)?
Do I want them to set a totally lame 1 or 2 per household limit? Ah, no...although I'm a long-time third generation collector, I'd still like to at least hope to make a few dollars in this hobby every once and a while.
However, do I expect the Mint to overreact to all this negative publicity and actually implement some of the stupidity I listed above...ABSOLUTELY...in fact, I'd be willing to bet we're stuck with either an extremely low order limit or a lottery (in which case, I will simply expand my circle of friends, family and co-workers the next time around).
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This has probably already been said more than once, but the US Mint is the party that needs to be addressed concerning the ordering process/household limits/coin mintages, etc. Lots of people took advantage of the 100K mintage "guaranteed to make money on the secondary market" by getting friends and relatives to order boxes for them (no different from MCM) except they might have had to re-negotiate the price with Mom to keep peace in the family.
In hind site it was guaranteed. There were a lot of knowledgeable folks on this board going back and forth as to how fast they would sell out etc. There were a lot of folks that questioned. Sure now looking back it was a lock. So was the 33,000 mintage atb's. I was right about these, I was wrong about the ATB's. People locked in a price with the dealers because they didn't know what was going to happen and felt it better to take the profit provided. Turned out to be a very different situation. Don't blame the dealers. They put out a price based on an unknown. People stepped forward and said "I'll take that price". A deal is a deal is a deal. If you want to take the chance and profit or sometimes lose then don't step forward. NO one held a gun to their heads to make the deal. >>
Well, since the offers were contingent upon you being able to order the coins, actually a deal wasn't a deal [at least for the ones fostered here] until you provided the buyer with your order confirmation number that you got from the mint. There was no obligation on your part to give that number even if you got one, however giving it consummated the deal. After 3 or 4 hours of trying to to get through, the smart ones [myself included] shudda said WHOA!!! these things are gonna be center of the sun HOT; maybe I don't want to sell now. >>
When you figure how hard it was for many to get sets, that might have been a basis for renegotiating the price, with asking more for the extra man hours involved. But the deal should have been consummated if you said you would sell them. The issue is should MCM be singled out for pre-buying (regardless of price).
I took the day off and dialed every 10 seconds for 2 hours and finally got though to the site
where I ordered my limit. I prepared knowing it was going to be chaos getting these.
MCM did what many others did, where are their names?
I've done business with MCM, no issues, no BS.
Is it not possible that this was the only name the author knew? Other than some forum nicknames, I did not at the time, and still do not, know of any others.
<< <i>MCM did what many others did, where are their names?
Is it not possible that this was the only name the author knew? Other than some forum nicknames, I did not at the time, and still do not, know of any others. >>
Segoja aka James Sego [he had the best offer IMO] Wondercoin [post of 10/24/2011 not specific now] Coinfame on the hockey pucks [I don't recall their asking to prepurchase the 25th coins] and prolly some others. If I have listed your name in error PLMK and I will acknowledge and remove same.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>This has probably already been said more than once, but the US Mint is the party that needs to be addressed concerning the ordering process/household limits/coin mintages, etc. Lots of people took advantage of the 100K mintage "guaranteed to make money on the secondary market" by getting friends and relatives to order boxes for them (no different from MCM) except they might have had to re-negotiate the price with Mom to keep peace in the family.
In hind site it was guaranteed. There were a lot of knowledgeable folks on this board going back and forth as to how fast they would sell out etc. There were a lot of folks that questioned. Sure now looking back it was a lock. So was the 33,000 mintage atb's. I was right about these, I was wrong about the ATB's. People locked in a price with the dealers because they didn't know what was going to happen and felt it better to take the profit provided. Turned out to be a very different situation. Don't blame the dealers. They put out a price based on an unknown. People stepped forward and said "I'll take that price". A deal is a deal is a deal. If you want to take the chance and profit or sometimes lose then don't step forward. NO one held a gun to their heads to make the deal. >>
Well, since the offers were contingent upon you being able to order the coins, actually a deal wasn't a deal [at least for the ones fostered here] until you provided the buyer with your order confirmation number that you got from the mint. There was no obligation on your part to give that number even if you got one, however giving it consummated the deal. After 3 or 4 hours of trying to to get through, the smart ones [myself included] shudda said WHOA!!! these things are gonna be center of the sun HOT; maybe I don't want to sell now. >>
When you figure how hard it was for many to get sets, that might have been a basis for renegotiating the price, with asking more for the extra man hours involved. But the deal should have been consummated if you said you would sell them. The issue is should MCM be singled out for pre-buying (regardless of price). >>
If you contacted the buyer and said that you didn't wish to sell they would likely have been ok with that. If you lied and said you that you didn't get and order and later they found out that you did, that isn't so cool.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>
<< <i>MCM did what many others did, where are their names?
Is it not possible that this was the only name the author knew? Other than some forum nicknames, I did not at the time, and still do not, know of any others. >>
Segoja aka James Sego [he had the best offer IMO] Wondercoin [post of 10/24/2011 not specific now] Coinfame on the hockey pucks [I don't recall their asking to prepurchase the 25th coins] and prolly some others. If I have listed your name in error PLMK and I will acknowledge and remove same. >>
Like I said, other than some forum folks, I knew of no other firms making offers. Assuming that the author of the editorial does not participate here, it is quite possible that MCM was the only name he knew that was buying the coins. As a collector, he probably does not have access to all of the dealer networks, etc.
<< <i>
<< <i>MCM did what many others did, where are their names?
Is it not possible that this was the only name the author knew? Other than some forum nicknames, I did not at the time, and still do not, know of any others. >>
Segoja aka James Sego [he had the best offer IMO] Wondercoin [post of 10/24/2011 not specific now] Coinfame on the hockey pucks [I don't recall their asking to prepurchase the 25th coins] and prolly some others. If I have listed your name in error PLMK and I will acknowledge and remove same. >>
....... and these are just SOME of the forum members.... I could add to that another 20 to 25 dealers I am aware (not forum members) of that sent out emails buying or posted on networks. But I won't... why should I? The point is and you are correct, I should NOT have been singled out and I did not do anything wrong, and I did not deserve to be drug through the mud.
With the exception of opinions from two other members who are posting in this thread I think that is pretty much the consensus.
John
John Maben
Pegasus Coin and Jewelry (Brick and Mortar)
ANA LM, PNG, APMD, FUN, Etc
800-381-2646
Special issues or not.
They should do like they did with the UHR on "hot" issues......set a household limit, make the coins "to demand" and not announce a max mintage. Particularly with precious metal/popular items.
Unless/until they do this, there will be problems and collectors will be screwed and flippers will flip.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Bajerfan: Since you mentioned my name specifically, regarding your comment on the "best offer", I still stand by the way I handle my regular established customers who are OK with waiting for a payout (and the risk things can go wrong) as opposed to a prompt and quick "flip". A couple newer customers (board members) tried this method as well. Instead of taking in $60, $85 or even $100/set quick profit in this case, those customers essentially get 50% of the profit I generate selling their coins. Granted it takes a lot more time to complete the final "settlement" as all the coins need to be sold off for the customer, but it ensures that my profit is essentially the same as my customer's profit (unless otherwise agreed to), which I personally think is very smart business when dealing with ones very best customers.
Wondercoin
edited to add ... when things went terribly wrong with the ATB's the Mint sold last year, so that I had to report a loss to some of my established customers who asked me to sell their coins for 50% of the profit, one board member insisted that I split the loss with him rather than pay it all out myself. For everyone else, I just "ate" the entire loss. I figured that was just the right thing to do under those circumstances ... no guarantee I will do it on the next deal
Quite possible. Again, I am pretty active on the coin scene and were it not for my participation here, I would not have known of any other dealer buyers.
BTW, I like the 50% profit split idea. Sign me up for it next time.
<< <i>RYK: You may be correct. If you refer back to the Coin World article which appeared on the cover of the Nov 14th 2011 issue, I believe MCM was named specifically by the Coin World author. Possibly why they were then singled out in the commentary as well?
Bajerfan: Since you mentioned my name specifically, regarding your comment on the "best offer", I still stand by the way I handle my regular established customers who are OK with waiting for a payout (and the risk things can go wrong) as opposed to a prompt and quick "flip". A couple newer customers (board members) tried this method as well. Instead of taking in $60, $85 or even $100/set quick profit in this case, those customers essentially get 50% of the profit I generate selling their coins. Granted it takes a lot more time to complete the final "settlement" as all the coins need to be sold off for the customer, but it ensures that my profit is essentially the same as my customer's profit (unless otherwise agreed to), which I personally think is very smart business when dealing with ones very best customers.
Wondercoin
edited to add ... when things went terribly wrong with the ATB's the Mint sold last year, so that I had to report a loss to some of my established customers who asked me to sell their coins for 50% of the profit, one board member insisted that I split the loss with him rather than pay it all out myself. For everyone else, I just "ate" the entire loss. I figured that was just the right thing to do under those circumstances ... no guarantee I will do it on the next deal
I probably should have read closer not mentioned any forum members since they were already known to RYK. I wasn't aware of offers regarding a profit sharing/split being involved. Of the two offers, one for cash the other for a graded set, the graded set was IMO the better offer.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
And the end result is the same...MCM will have purchased an adequate supply on the SECONDARY market. No harm, no foul...except for those squeezing the sour grapes. Still seems like a pretty sharp (and legitimate) business decision in my book.
<< <i>RYK: You may be correct. If you refer back to the Coin World article which appeared on the cover of the Nov 14th 2011 issue, I believe MCM was named specifically by the Coin World author. Possibly why they were then singled out in the commentary as well?
Quite possible. Again, I am pretty active on the coin scene and were it not for my participation here, I would not have known of any other dealer buyers.
BTW, I like the 50% profit split idea. Sign me up for it next time.
How does that work? He buys the coins from you at cost and gets them graded? That means that set now has a cost basis of about $900 or less depending on his bulk rate. It sells for $1500. A friend I know in the chem biz will take that $600 markup and lop 60% off the top as his basic business expense. What's left is $240 profit to split up, is that pretty close?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>Speaking as an often satisfied customer of MCM...I'll just add this...just for the sake of argument, what exactly is the difference if MCM (or anyone else) offered a $50 bounty per set back in November or a $1,000 per set bounty today? No difference, except for the price paid by MCM and the profit realized by the seller.
And the end result is the same...MCM will have purchased an adequate supply on the SECONDARY market. No harm, no foul...except for those squeezing the sour grapes. Still seems like a pretty sharp (and legitimate) business decision in my book. >>
I've got no beef with MCM (or any of the others on the forum that did this) but to answer your question, the only thing I could see is how it is perceived and that, in doing what was done, it was prompting folks who were ONLY in it for the quick flip, who otherwise might not have risked making the purchase (or hadn't known about it), to buy in a mad crush on the mint's ordering system; thereby knocking out others who did know about it and maybe just wanted it for their own collection.
If the offer to buy is made after a purchase choice was already decided upon and made, then it isn't seen as manipulation. In this case, the folks complaining probably do see it is as market manipulation at a detriment to them being able to purchase from the mint, at original pricing. By doing the pre-order with a guaranteed payment, once could reasonably argue that those folks were functioning as agents to the end dealer/person making them the offer.
Again, no beef from me either way, but I do see both sides.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Bajerfan... Please just PM me to discuss the details as this is not the place to do so. Just one quick comment to address your math eror .. if a set costs $300 from the mint and $150 to grade (hypothetically), the cost is $450/set total, not $900/set.
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>Speaking as an often satisfied customer of MCM...I'll just add this...just for the sake of argument, what exactly is the difference if MCM (or anyone else) offered a $50 bounty per set back in November or a $1,000 per set bounty today? No difference, except for the price paid by MCM and the profit realized by the seller.
And the end result is the same...MCM will have purchased an adequate supply on the SECONDARY market. No harm, no foul...except for those squeezing the sour grapes. Still seems like a pretty sharp (and legitimate) business decision in my book. >>
I've got no beef with MCM (or any of the others on the forum that did this) but to answer your question, the only thing I could see is how it is perceived and that, in doing what was done, it was prompting folks who were ONLY in it for the quick flip, who otherwise might not have risked making the purchase (or hadn't known about it), to buy in a mad crush on the mint's ordering system; thereby knocking out others who did know about it and maybe just wanted it for their own collection.
If the offer to buy is made after a purchase choice was already decided upon and made, then it isn't seen as manipulation. In this case, the folks complaining probably do see it is as market manipulation at a detriment to them being able to purchase from the mint, at original pricing. By doing the pre-order with a guaranteed payment, once could reasonably argue that those folks were functioning as agents to the end dealer/person making them the offer.
Again, no beef from me either way, but I do see both sides. >>
I think I made the same point a page or two back.
BTW if anyone replied to one of these offers with a PM sent, did you get any inquiries from other buyers AFTER that?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.