Geez, I wonder if CRO and Legend were at the same show? Both good reads. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
" Prices for fresh, CAC, and or unmolested coins (no dreck) sold super strong. There is no question what so ever that PCGS/CAC coins are by far bringing the strongest prices. If a coin is not CAC'd, ask if it has been there. Its plain common sense that a dealer would want their coin maxed out value wise. " Thats ok Laura. I like to actually look at the coins and not the labels. I guess she cant tell nice coins on her own and she needs stickers on slabs.
Yo Bro, it was cowabunga from what I saw, like totally hang ten brudder! Maybe next time she can shoot some curls then go to sharkies for some totally rad fish tacos and cold brewskies, that's what I'm talking about gromit!
I don't care about Legend. I can only afford drek. I don't have a dog in this fight. However, Laura gives her opinion on the coin market. Especially the high end items that they deal in. CAC has nothing to do with the actual coin itself. She is giving her insight on what she sees going on. PCGS/CAC coins sell for the most. It is a free tell, use the information how you see fit.
I am still confused....they said buy generic saints...Man, there was so much #$%^&* gold at Long beach it was boring ! People were obviously unloading as much as they could since the price has dropped from the boil a month ago. Glad I collect copper.
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose, Cardinal.
<< <i>Every month is a record month and they can never find any coins. >>
Finding quality coins at shows and buying them privately or at auction are both very different things. Just because they cant find any coins at shows doesnt mean they dont buy at all. For the quality they look for, it does not surprise me that the show was slow for them.
I do agree with their statement about whoever bought a quality CAC coin in the FUN sale will be able to make a decent profit in 1 years time.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Every month is a record month and they can never find any coins. >>
Finding quality coins at shows and buying them privately or at auction are both very different things. Just because they cant find any coins at shows doesnt mean they dont buy at all. For the quality they look for, it does not surprise me that the show was slow for them.
I do agree with their statement about whoever bought a quality CAC coin in the FUN sale will be able to make a decent profit in 1 years time. >>
What if someone bought a quality CAC coin on the bourse?
Will they be able to make a profit too...?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning.
she only heard of one or two retail sales made at the show??? that's just silly. I know there were way more than that because I bought 8 different coins from 6 different dealers at the show, none were bullion and i'm pretty sure I was paying retail... of course, they were not $10,000+ coins so maybe those don't count and are considered "generic"
Long Beach seemed much busier and active than the last few shows and the PCGS grading contest was fun.
<< <i>I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning. >>
Evan has not dropped out and was set up at the show, though he has moved to a table location in the back section.
<< <i>" Prices for fresh, CAC, and or unmolested coins (no dreck) sold super strong. There is no question what so ever that PCGS/CAC coins are by far bringing the strongest prices. If a coin is not CAC'd, ask if it has been there. Its plain common sense that a dealer would want their coin maxed out value wise. " Thats ok Laura. I like to actually look at the coins and not the labels. I guess she cant tell nice coins on her own and she needs stickers on slabs. >>
At least Laura is consistent---sort of like a broken record.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Any collector who bought a truely "great" coin from this years FUN Sale will be able to sell it for a significant profit in a year. Remember, rare coins are a long term propostion.
I was puzzled by this.
Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning. >>
Evan has not dropped out and was set up at the show, though he has moved to a table location in the dreck section. >>
I respect Laura because she ain't skeerd to speak her mind. She will tell you what she sincerely believes is the truth even when you don't want to hear it.
One month they're doing record all time business during an extended recession and then are puzzled when a follow-on month is very sub par. It can't all be good...all the time. Hasn't a bunch of money started moving into other risk assets over the past 1-2 months as the stock market has seen a sort of resurgence?
Sometimes dealers have to put their face out on the dusty trail to keep in touch with customers even if the rewards aren't immediately there. I feel a large part of the coin market weakness is the weakness of non-PCGS coins. For reasons we are all well aware of, and Legend seems to echo, if it ain't clear plastic with a bean the interest is not quite there. One can't expect a vibrant coin market when over half of the coins graded are now sort of ignored....even those of the same quality. Things went from bifurcation to quadfurcation in a hurry. "Buy the coin, not the holder" works well if you don't care what your coins will be worth if you ever have to sell them. In the real world, the clothing is trumping quality.
$100,000 cars and art work will never compare to $100,000 coins. Being both a collector car and coin owner I can attest there is no comparison to the visibility/fun of a car vs. a similarly priced coin. People seem to be understand that a 16' long collector car can be pretty impressive looking as it drives by you on the highway. Try that with a coin sitting in the safe deposit box. The 1996-2007 car market was pretty impressive with pop top performance 1968-1971 Dodge/Plymouths increasing in value by 3X to 5X in price. It was an incredible time...but the speculation is now over. However, there are signs that the bloodbath in lowering prices is about over, at least for the top 10% of cars. Like coins, they took an across the board 40% haircut, with some of the most desireable and expensive ones (>$200K) taking 50-60% cuts. I found it interesting to note that the collector car market peaked in fall of 2007 while coins seemed to make it to mid-2008 during gold's last push above $900 (and oil to $145) before the roof caved in from August-November 2008.
It's no surprise Legend can't find MS65 CAC bust halves to buy. ElContador and I were looking for "all there" PCGS MS65's (pre-bean) during 2004-2007 and couldn't find any when the market was hot, at least not for well under MS66 money. They weren't around then either. Unfortunately, the market can't be carried by just the top 1% of coins (ie 1793 MS65 BN chain cents) and bullion transactions. 99% of dealers deal in the bottom 99% of coin quality/rarity. Without them, there is no market.
Definitely agree that the premiums for generic MS64-66 saints are incredibly low. Gold generics in general still haven't recovered from their 2006 highs. It's only the $20's with their near ounce of gold that have done ok. But generic $20's have tended to run in cycles along with other leveraged gold products (ie mining stocks for example). And that cycle last peaked in late November 2009 and is due for another push upwards...assuming gold makes a break for >$2,000 at the same time. As far as the Simpson saints being the all-time finest set, we can't say that until they get to auction and stack up against Duckor and other previous sets. Let's compare coins, not labels.
<< <i>I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning. >>
Evan Gale was indeed set up at Long Beach; he was across from Pinnacle Rarities in the back of the room and stayed until 3PM Sat. The show was a difficult sell for a February. Many dealers with whom I regular sell coins were simply not spending money. Usually, I have a very good Long Beach at this time of year.
I feel a large part of the coin market weakness is the weakness of non-PCGS coins. For reasons we are all well aware of, and Legend seems to echo, if it ain't clear plastic with a bean the interest is not quite there.
This is absolutely correct. It's been a very hard sell trying to unload anything but PCGS coins. The vast majority of the dealers won't even look or ask a price for anything else. One major dealer with whom I spoke said there is a 30-30% discount on non PCGS graded coins. This has been ringing true for about 6-8 months now.
<< <i>I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning. >>
Evan has not dropped out and was set up at the show, though he has moved to a table location in the back section. >>
Thanks for the clarification, CCU. He was not on the dealer list (pamphlet) under E, G, or A(spen Park Rare Coins), so I assumed he was not in attendance. The main reason I make the walk to the "hinterlands" is to visit Northeast Numismatics. Seems like they only bring a few boxes of coins these days, however... In any case, I didn't run into Evan (or his coins) while I was back there.
<< <i>This is absolutely correct. It's been a very hard sell trying to unload anything but PCGS coins. The vast majority of the dealers won't even look or ask a price for anything else. One major dealer with whom I spoke said there is a 30-30% discount on non PCGS graded coins. This has been ringing true for about 6-8 months now. >>
Wow - and Coinkid just reported hitting the coveted 'gold beans' on four NGC coins he submitted to CAC - so is this a buying opportunity for those who recognize strong coins regardless of the holder?
<< <i>This is absolutely correct. It's been a very hard sell trying to unload anything but PCGS coins. The vast majority of the dealers won't even look or ask a price for anything else. One major dealer with whom I spoke said there is a 30-30% discount on non PCGS graded coins. This has been ringing true for about 6-8 months now. >>
Wow - and Coinkid just reported hitting the coveted 'gold beans' on four NGC coins he submitted to CAC - so is this a buying opportunity for those who recognize strong coins regardless of the holder? >>
Actually, those were old NGC holders (2.1), so we are back to the holder being important again.
What happened to buy what you like?? It's all about stickers and holders. I could care less if a coin I bought is cac stickered or in pcgs pcgs slabbed. I buy the coin and compare it to others and buy the one I think looks the best. This is a hobby to me, others make it all about money.........
Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>On the bourse floor, dealers now buy and sell like it were an auction (coins are traded referencing up to date auction prices realized). Which in sometimes makes buying coins hard. >>
To me, this was the most significant statement in Laura’s blog. Auctions are no longer the bailiwick of dealers, where prices realized reflect the wholesale market. Winning bids are now often retail prices which makes it harder for dealers to buy at auction and then mark them up 40% or more. And that applies to regular coins too, not just the MS65 bust and MS67 3CS stuff that Laura writes about.
Maybe that answers Bidasked’s question about whether collectors who bought off the bourse rather than at auction at FUN will be able to sell at a profit in a year. Recovering your cost net of the 15% to 25% fees of selling at auction is tough enough. But if your cost reflects a 40% spread over the auction price what are your chances of just breaking even.
No thread hijacking here, but an expansion on the auction results being quoted.
I took a PCGS MS64RD 1909-S VDB to our local Salt Lake Show in a box of other possible 'sale' coins. One of my old-time dealer friends pulled it out of the box and asked how much. I had done some simple homework and pulled the last 10 PCGS coins in identical generation holders and then averaged them. I offered him the coin for $300 back of the average auction price for 10 identical coins in identical holders (and up to $600 back of the better ones), but that was still a bit over Graysheet bid . . . . so he passed. Not a problem on this, but YES, those of us who are simpleton colectors actually can access large amounts of data now and (to some extent) find out what our coins are actually worth.
Now I am all for allowing a profit. As a matter of fact, I WANT my dealer friends to make a good one. But, the knowledge is out there!
<< <i>What happened to buy what you like?? It's all about stickers and holders. I could care less if a coin I bought is cac stickered or in pcgs pcgs slabbed. I buy the coin and compare it to others and buy the one I think looks the best. This is a hobby to me, others make it all about money......... >>
<< <i>I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning. >>
Evan Gale was indeed set up at Long Beach; he was across from Pinnacle Rarities in the back of the room and stayed until 3PM Sat. The show was a difficult sell for a February. Many dealers with whom I regular sell coins were simply not spending money. Usually, I have a very good Long Beach at this time of year.
TRUTH >>
Wonder why many dealers were not spending money?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Primarily, the FUN show purchases had not sold. Many dealers did not want to extent their credit lines unless good sales were taking place. In addition, I did hear many high end FUN coins were not selling. Typical cash flow problems, but usually not so early in the year.
Primarily, the FUN show purchases had not sold. Many dealers did not want to extent their credit lines unless good sales were taking place. In addition, I did hear many high end FUN coins were not selling.
TT - Why would coins be selling any more slowly than expected? Is it that prices have gone lower and the dealers are holding firm? Are the buyers simply not interested at any price? Or is something else going on? Seriously, I have no idea. I didn't even know that there was a problem.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Wonder why many dealers were not spending money?
Primarily, the FUN show purchases had not sold. Many dealers did not want to extent their credit lines unless good sales were taking place. In addition, I did hear many high end FUN coins were not selling. Typical cash flow problems, but usually not so early in the year.
TRUTH >>
I have always been curious as to this side of the dealer business......that is, cash flow and the need borrow money....or have credit extended. How many professional dealers find themselves in that situation?
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You would truly be amazed at which "solid" dealers borrow money on a revolving basis. AMARK has a lending arm of the company which lends capital on collateralized coins. Many years back, I used their services for a short term loan to cover a large purchase. When I paid off the loan, they accidentally gave me a "large" dealer's invoice. I never forgot seeing so many zero's attached to dealer X's loan amount.
<< <i>Wonder why many dealers were not spending money?
Primarily, the FUN show purchases had not sold. Many dealers did not want to extent their credit lines unless good sales were taking place. In addition, I did hear many high end FUN coins were not selling. Typical cash flow problems, but usually not so early in the year.
TRUTH >>
No wonder some are having a hard time selling. When I look over the latest auction results I wonder how any dealer can make anything on them. Sure there are going to be coins that fall through the cracks but with every collector having the same access as a dealer I bet those are far and few between. I have basically stopped buying from the big auction houses for this very reason. I can get a better coin for less from lets say Brian Greer or even the floor vs Heritage.
<< <i> Primarily, the FUN show purchases had not sold. Many dealers did not want to extent their credit lines unless good sales were taking place. In addition, I did hear many high end FUN coins were not selling.
TT - Why would coins be selling any more slowly than expected? Is it that prices have gone lower and the dealers are holding firm? Are the buyers simply not interested at any price? Or is something else going on? Seriously, I have no idea. I didn't even know that there was a problem. >>
I can only surmise that Long Beach was the wrong venue to sell coins. I do not attend east coast shows, so there may be more dealers on the east coast that have better cash flow. And, the number of east coast and midwest dealers attending was much less than previous Feb. Long Beach shows. I do know, that when I used to attend the ANA summer shows, I used to sell almost everything I brought and had a nice wad of cash for new purchases. This Long Beach, however, there was a noticeable negative "buy" factor to any TPG other than PCGS.
Comments
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
WS
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Every month is a record month and they can never find any coins.
Finding quality coins at shows and buying them privately or at auction are both very different things. Just because they cant find any coins at shows doesnt mean they dont buy at all. For the quality they look for, it does not surprise me that the show was slow for them.
I do agree with their statement about whoever bought a quality CAC coin in the FUN sale will be able to make a decent profit in 1 years time.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>Every month is a record month and they can never find any coins.
Finding quality coins at shows and buying them privately or at auction are both very different things. Just because they cant find any coins at shows doesnt mean they dont buy at all. For the quality they look for, it does not surprise me that the show was slow for them.
I do agree with their statement about whoever bought a quality CAC coin in the FUN sale will be able to make a decent profit in 1 years time. >>
What if someone bought a quality CAC coin on the bourse?
Will they be able to make a profit too...?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Then again if it was in a doily holder?
Who would drool the most over it?
Thank goodness gold is impervious to drools.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with
somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning.
Long Beach seemed much busier and active than the last few shows and the PCGS grading contest was fun.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and
disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with
somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning. >>
Evan has not dropped out and was set up at the show, though he has moved to a table location in the back section.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>" Prices for fresh, CAC, and or unmolested coins (no dreck) sold super strong. There is no question what so ever that PCGS/CAC coins are by far bringing the strongest prices. If a coin is not CAC'd, ask if it has been there. Its plain common sense that a dealer would want their coin maxed out value wise. " Thats ok Laura. I like to actually look at the coins and not the labels. I guess she cant tell nice coins on her own and she needs stickers on slabs. >>
At least Laura is consistent---sort of like a broken record.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I was puzzled by this.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Was that a Strativarius, Broadsdreck? >>
Nope since this wasn't the "greatest show on earth" instead a "taking our ball and going home" report it's a drecky fiddle
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and
disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with
somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning. >>
Evan has not dropped out and was set up at the show, though he has moved to a table location in the dreck section. >>
In that case, he might as well have dropped out.
I respect Laura because she ain't skeerd to speak her mind. She will tell you what she sincerely believes is the truth even when you don't want to hear it.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Hasn't a bunch of money started moving into other risk assets over the past 1-2 months as the stock market has seen a sort of resurgence?
Sometimes dealers have to put their face out on the dusty trail to keep in touch with customers even if the rewards aren't immediately there. I feel a large part of
the coin market weakness is the weakness of non-PCGS coins. For reasons we are all well aware of, and Legend seems to echo, if it ain't clear plastic with a bean
the interest is not quite there. One can't expect a vibrant coin market when over half of the coins graded are now sort of ignored....even those of the same quality.
Things went from bifurcation to quadfurcation in a hurry. "Buy the coin, not the holder" works well if you don't care what your coins will be worth if you ever have to
sell them. In the real world, the clothing is trumping quality.
$100,000 cars and art work will never compare to $100,000 coins. Being both a collector car and coin owner I can attest there is no comparison to the visibility/fun of
a car vs. a similarly priced coin. People seem to be understand that a 16' long collector car can be pretty impressive looking as it drives by you on the highway. Try
that with a coin sitting in the safe deposit box. The 1996-2007 car market was pretty impressive with pop top performance 1968-1971 Dodge/Plymouths increasing in
value by 3X to 5X in price. It was an incredible time...but the speculation is now over. However, there are signs that the bloodbath in lowering prices is about over, at
least for the top 10% of cars. Like coins, they took an across the board 40% haircut, with some of the most desireable and expensive ones (>$200K) taking 50-60% cuts.
I found it interesting to note that the collector car market peaked in fall of 2007 while coins seemed to make it to mid-2008 during gold's last push above $900 (and oil to $145)
before the roof caved in from August-November 2008.
It's no surprise Legend can't find MS65 CAC bust halves to buy. ElContador and I were looking for "all there" PCGS MS65's (pre-bean) during 2004-2007 and couldn't find any
when the market was hot, at least not for well under MS66 money. They weren't around then either. Unfortunately, the market can't be carried by just the top 1% of coins
(ie 1793 MS65 BN chain cents) and bullion transactions. 99% of dealers deal in the bottom 99% of coin quality/rarity. Without them, there is no market.
Definitely agree that the premiums for generic MS64-66 saints are incredibly low. Gold generics in general still haven't recovered from their 2006 highs. It's only the $20's with their
near ounce of gold that have done ok. But generic $20's have tended to run in cycles along with other leveraged gold products (ie mining stocks for example). And that cycle last
peaked in late November 2009 and is due for another push upwards...assuming gold makes a break for >$2,000 at the same time. As far as the Simpson saints being the all-time
finest set, we can't say that until they get to auction and stack up against Duckor and other previous sets. Let's compare coins, not labels.
<< <i>I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and
disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with
somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning. >>
Evan Gale was indeed set up at Long Beach; he was across from Pinnacle Rarities in the back of the room and stayed until 3PM Sat. The show was a difficult sell for a February. Many dealers with whom I regular sell coins were simply not spending money. Usually, I have a very good Long Beach at this time of year.
TRUTH
This is absolutely correct. It's been a very hard sell trying to unload anything but PCGS coins. The vast majority of the dealers won't even look or ask a price for anything else. One major dealer with whom I spoke said there is a 30-30% discount on non PCGS graded coins. This has been ringing true for about 6-8 months now.
TRUTH
<< <i>Every month is a record month and they can never find any coins.
It's dejavu all over again!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and
disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with
somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning. >>
Evan has not dropped out and was set up at the show, though he has moved to a table location in the back section. >>
Thanks for the clarification, CCU. He was not on the dealer list (pamphlet) under E, G, or A(spen Park Rare Coins),
so I assumed he was not in attendance. The main reason I make the walk to the "hinterlands" is to visit
Northeast Numismatics. Seems like they only bring a few boxes of coins these days, however...
In any case, I didn't run into Evan (or his coins) while I was back there.
<< <i>This is absolutely correct. It's been a very hard sell trying to unload anything but PCGS coins. The vast majority of the dealers won't even look or ask a price for anything else. One major dealer with whom I spoke said there is a 30-30% discount on non PCGS graded coins. This has been ringing true for about 6-8 months now. >>
Wow - and Coinkid just reported hitting the coveted 'gold beans' on four NGC coins he submitted to CAC - so is this a buying opportunity for those who recognize strong coins regardless of the holder?
<< <i>
<< <i>This is absolutely correct. It's been a very hard sell trying to unload anything but PCGS coins. The vast majority of the dealers won't even look or ask a price for anything else. One major dealer with whom I spoke said there is a 30-30% discount on non PCGS graded coins. This has been ringing true for about 6-8 months now. >>
Wow - and Coinkid just reported hitting the coveted 'gold beans' on four NGC coins he submitted to CAC - so is this a buying opportunity for those who recognize strong coins regardless of the holder? >>
Actually, those were old NGC holders (2.1), so we are back to the holder being important again.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i>On the bourse floor, dealers now buy and sell like it were an auction (coins are traded referencing up to date auction prices realized). Which in sometimes makes buying coins hard. >>
To me, this was the most significant statement in Laura’s blog. Auctions are no longer the bailiwick of dealers, where prices realized reflect the wholesale market. Winning bids are now often retail prices which makes it harder for dealers to buy at auction and then mark them up 40% or more. And that applies to regular coins too, not just the MS65 bust and MS67 3CS stuff that Laura writes about.
Maybe that answers Bidasked’s question about whether collectors who bought off the bourse rather than at auction at FUN will be able to sell at a profit in a year. Recovering your cost net of the 15% to 25% fees of selling at auction is tough enough. But if your cost reflects a 40% spread over the auction price what are your chances of just breaking even.
CG
I took a PCGS MS64RD 1909-S VDB to our local Salt Lake Show in a box of other possible 'sale' coins. One of my old-time dealer friends pulled it out of the box and asked how much. I had done some simple homework and pulled the last 10 PCGS coins in identical generation holders and then averaged them. I offered him the coin for $300 back of the average auction price for 10 identical coins in identical holders (and up to $600 back of the better ones), but that was still a bit over Graysheet bid . . . . so he passed. Not a problem on this, but YES, those of us who are simpleton colectors actually can access large amounts of data now and (to some extent) find out what our coins are actually worth.
Now I am all for allowing a profit. As a matter of fact, I WANT my dealer friends to make a good one. But, the knowledge is out there!
Drunner
<< <i>What happened to buy what you like?? It's all about stickers and holders. I could care less if a coin I bought is cac stickered or in pcgs pcgs slabbed. I buy the coin and compare it to others and buy the one I think looks the best. This is a hobby to me, others make it all about money......... >>
While I do have great respect for Laura, I must point out that many fools, lunatics and psychopaths are not scared to speak their mind.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
<< <i>I wonder if the dealer she referenced as having dropped out was Evan Gale. I was quite surprised (and
disappointed) to see that he wasn't set up at the show, and then I noticed him chewing the fat with
somebody at the Legend table on my way out this morning. >>
Evan Gale was indeed set up at Long Beach; he was across from Pinnacle Rarities in the back of the room and stayed until 3PM Sat. The show was a difficult sell for a February. Many dealers with whom I regular sell coins were simply not spending money. Usually, I have a very good Long Beach at this time of year.
TRUTH >>
Wonder why many dealers were not spending money?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I respect Laura because she ain't skeerd to speak her mind.
While I do have great respect for Laura, I must point out that many fools, lunatics and psychopaths are not scared to speak their mind. >>
quite pathetic-
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
My comments have nothing to do with personalities
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Primarily, the FUN show purchases had not sold. Many dealers did not want to extent their credit lines unless good sales were taking place. In addition, I did hear many high end FUN coins were not selling. Typical cash flow problems, but usually not so early in the year.
TRUTH
TT - Why would coins be selling any more slowly than expected? Is it that prices have gone lower and the dealers are holding firm? Are the buyers simply not interested at any price? Or is something else going on? Seriously, I have no idea. I didn't even know that there was a problem.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Wonder why many dealers were not spending money?
Primarily, the FUN show purchases had not sold. Many dealers did not want to extent their credit lines unless good sales were taking place. In addition, I did hear many high end FUN coins were not selling. Typical cash flow problems, but usually not so early in the year.
TRUTH >>
I have always been curious as to this side of the dealer business......that is, cash flow and the need borrow money....or have credit extended. How many professional dealers find themselves
in that situation?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
TRUTH
<< <i>Wonder why many dealers were not spending money?
Primarily, the FUN show purchases had not sold. Many dealers did not want to extent their credit lines unless good sales were taking place. In addition, I did hear many high end FUN coins were not selling. Typical cash flow problems, but usually not so early in the year.
TRUTH >>
No wonder some are having a hard time selling. When I look over the latest auction results I wonder how any dealer can make anything on them. Sure there are going to be coins that fall through the cracks but with every collector having the same access as a dealer I bet those are far and few between. I have basically stopped buying from the big auction houses for this very reason. I can get a better coin for less from lets say Brian Greer or even the floor vs Heritage.
EAC 6024
<< <i> Primarily, the FUN show purchases had not sold. Many dealers did not want to extent their credit lines unless good sales were taking place. In addition, I did hear many high end FUN coins were not selling.
TT - Why would coins be selling any more slowly than expected? Is it that prices have gone lower and the dealers are holding firm? Are the buyers simply not interested at any price? Or is something else going on? Seriously, I have no idea. I didn't even know that there was a problem. >>
I can only surmise that Long Beach was the wrong venue to sell coins. I do not attend east coast shows, so there may be more dealers on the east coast that have better cash flow. And, the number of east coast and midwest dealers attending was much less than previous Feb. Long Beach shows. I do know, that when I used to attend the ANA summer shows, I used to sell almost everything I brought and had a nice wad of cash for new purchases. This Long Beach, however, there was a noticeable negative "buy" factor to any TPG other than PCGS.
TRUTH