On January 9th, 2012 Who will be the next to enter in the Baseball Hall of Fame?
BPorter26
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Here's Your 2012 Ballot
I would like to see Barry Larkin and Jack Morris get in.
Even though Steve Garvey is no longer on the ballot, I think Garvey is HOF worthy. I guess it's now up to the Veterans Committee to vote him in.
Steve Garvey 19yr Career 10xAS, NL MVP-1974, 2599 Hits, 272 HR, 1308 RBI's 5x200 seasons, 4x Gold Glove, .294 life time average. Garvey dominated his position for 10+ years
I would like to see Barry Larkin and Jack Morris get in.
Even though Steve Garvey is no longer on the ballot, I think Garvey is HOF worthy. I guess it's now up to the Veterans Committee to vote him in.
Steve Garvey 19yr Career 10xAS, NL MVP-1974, 2599 Hits, 272 HR, 1308 RBI's 5x200 seasons, 4x Gold Glove, .294 life time average. Garvey dominated his position for 10+ years
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<< <i>Bret Saberhagen. Yeah, he only got like 2 votes, 4-5 years ago....but I feel a surge. >>
Sorry Mark, no Saberhagen as it's not an odd numbered year.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
However I could have a conflict of interest as I just bought a PSA 9 Raines rookie.
I can't see Morris getting in the Hall.
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<< <i>McGriff, McGwire, Palmeiro, and Bagwell. I know none of them will get in, but I think they are more hall worthy than Larkin or Morris, imo. >>
Tommy out of those 4 players, I think McGriff might have been the only clean one, even though McGwire, Palmeiro and Bagwell have HOF numbers they have been associated with steroids. We all know the voters have decided not to vote for players that have confused or allegedly used steroids. I don't think Freddie is Hall worthy IMO, even though he had very good numbers. Crime Dog was a 4xAS had 483 HR's and .284 lifetime average.
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Crime Dog was only 7 bombs away from the 500 club, I also think he should get a reasonable shot.
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<< <i>Only Larkin gets in this year. That's my answer and I'm sticking to it. >>
Two CPA Mike's agree. Just Larkin this year.
Mike
Mark
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<< <i>I think Larkin will be the only one to get in though I am not sold he is HOF worthy. In my opinion, if Larkin gets in then Davey Concepcion should as well. Here is a thought to ponder; should the criteria to get into the HOF to be the best of the best (of all time) or the best of the best (of your generation/decade)?
Mark >>
I also think Larkin gets in not because he was the best of the best all time, but because he was one of the best of his generation.
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Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Craig Biggio
Sammy Sosa
Curt Schilling
Mike Piazza
I would think Biggio and Schilling will make it. Of the other four, sadly, I think Bonds gets in next year despite the steroid issue. He had huge numbers and was a three time MVP even before his head grew 14 sizes.
Bagwell is the most deserving by far. I guess being a strong guy with some muscles evidently disqualifies a player from the HOF. (even without proof of PED use). Bagwell was an outstanding player that will probably get screwed by the worthless vindictive writers for no reason. I certainly hope not because he was a hell of great player and a classy guy.
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No one should get in with this ballot...
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Morris and Smith are overrated based on bad statistics, Wins and Saves.
<< <i>
<< <i>Bret Saberhagen. Yeah, he only got like 2 votes, 4-5 years ago....but I feel a surge. >>
Sorry Mark, no Saberhagen as it's not an odd numbered year.
Darn it...your right.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Looking at McGriff's stats, he measures up quite well with Killebrew in obp. slg. ops. with a higher BA. He averaged just under 300 total bases a year. 10 times hit over 30 home runs. Being an American League guy, I didn't really get to see him play much, but to me, he should be in after a look at his stats.
Also has one of the best nicknames ever, that should count as well. LOL
What's the argument against?
Larkin looks like a lock. He seems to have don everything REALLY well except hit for power, but a SS isn't asked to do that. Just under .300 BA, lots of stolen bases, some Gold Gloves, good fielding PCT.
Where is he lacking?
Heard some very good arguments for Raines as well. Bagwell was a monster, but it seems he has been considered by many as a steroid user, so that is a cloud over his career. Was he ever tested positive or mentioned in the reports, or was he just really big?
I know more about Black Jack, but I am not sure he quite makes it. I will be forever grateful for him in game 7 1991 though.
Joe
Edited to add, nothing against Trammell, but Larkin was better in every single offensive category, maybe not by a lot in some, but still EVERY category!
Dave
<< <i>Jack Morris, Lee Smith and Barry Larkin.
Dave >>
Morris' career 3.90 ERA keeps him on the outside looking in
IMF
<< <i>
<< <i>Jack Morris, Lee Smith and Barry Larkin.
Dave >>
Morris' career 3.90 ERA keeps him on the outside looking in
IMF >>
He's only won more games in the decade of the 1980's than anyone else. Won a few World Series Championships.
New HOF Critera. If you dominate all of baseball in anything for a decade you can not get inducted. We need more Bobby Doerr's and Red Schoendiest's in the HOF, not the great players.
Dave
<< <i>I don't see how Barry Larkin is any better than Alan Trammell. Given the choice of both guys in their primes, I'd probably take Trammell, yet he's not even close to getting in (By the way, it's criminal that Lou Whitaker isn't even on the ballot anymore). >>
Bill Mazeroski is in, so Frank White should be in. They were both defensive specialists. Whitaker was a much better all around 2nd baseman than those two so he should be a no doubt HOF'er.
<< <i>This is not the Hall of Very Good...
No one should get in with this ballot... >>
Agreed... but someone has to go in I'd vote for Larkin and Lee Smith
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Jack Morris, Lee Smith and Barry Larkin.
Dave >>
Morris' career 3.90 ERA keeps him on the outside looking in
IMF >>
He's only won more games in the decade of the 1980's than anyone else. Won a few World Series Championships.
New HOF Critera. If you dominate all of baseball in anything for a decade you can not get inducted. We need more Bobby Doerr's and Red Schoendiest's in the HOF, not the great players.
Dave >>
Scott McGregor was the winningest LHP in the AL in the 1980's (as well as a World Series winner) and he isn't in any HOF discussion (rightfully so)....
Morris was good; not great
IMF
When is he eligible?
Wasn't Dale Murphy the 80's RBI leader?
Morris will be like Schilling good~very good pitchers who may get in based on one post season start.
saucywombat@hotmail.com
If you don't think Morris is a HOFer than you weren't paying very close attention to the AL in the 80s.
<< <i>Jack Morris was the ace of 3 different world champions and was the only consistently dominant and winning pitcher in the 80s until Gooden and Clemens came along. From 1979-1986 he was one of the top 5 starters in baseball just about every year, and had 2 more great years in 1991 and 1992 after he left the Tigers. This was an era where AL pitchers were getting absolutely crushed by Mattingly, Murray, Winfield, Yount, Brett, Henderson, etc...., and Morris was the only pitcher that put up consistent win totals for the entire decade as well as putting up high strikeout totals. His ERA was high, but ERA's were high across the board. He was consistently the one AL pitcher in the 80s that you wanted to buy tickets to see when he took the hill in your town.
If you don't think Morris is a HOFer than you weren't paying very close attention to the AL in the 80s. >>
Morris' only shot (while still slim) is with the Veterans Committe in a few years....He has NO shot through the BBWA (the writers who actually watched baseball in the 1980's).......
IMF
<< <i>Jack Morris was the ace of 3 different world champions and was the only consistently dominant and winning pitcher in the 80s until Gooden and Clemens came along. From 1979-1986 he was one of the top 5 starters in baseball just about every year, and had 2 more great years in 1991 and 1992 after he left the Tigers. This was an era where AL pitchers were getting absolutely crushed by Mattingly, Murray, Winfield, Yount, Brett, Henderson, etc...., and Morris was the only pitcher that put up consistent win totals for the entire decade as well as putting up high strikeout totals. His ERA was high, but ERA's were high across the board. He was consistently the one AL pitcher in the 80s that you wanted to buy tickets to see when he took the hill in your town.
If you don't think Morris is a HOFer than you weren't paying very close attention to the AL in the 80s. >>
Dave Stieb says hi
Dave Stieb’s career run support, relative to league average - 94.6%
Jack Morris’s career run support, relative to league average – 107.1%
An average pitcher with Dave Stieb’s run support would have a .472 career winning percentage. For Stieb, that translates to a record of 148-165. His actual record? 176-137.
An average pitcher with Jack Morris’s run support would have a .532 career winning percentage. For Morris, that translates to a record of 234-205. His actual record? 254-186.
Stieb was 28 wins above average
Morris was 20 wins above average.
oh btw, Stieb also had 115 fewer starts.
Morris may have been the wins leader of the decade, but he wasn't the best pitcher of the decade. Morris had longevity and memorable post-season moments over Stieb, but that's about it, and I'm guessing most people here aren't pro-Stieb for the HOF.
I do not think Morris is a HOFer, and I paid extremely close attention to the AL in the 80s (and 60s, 70, 90, and 00s). No way (IMHO) does he belong in the HOF.
In re to being the "ace" of three WS teams:
In 1984 Dan Petry had better numbers than Morris (JM had the 3rd worst ERA of the four primary starters)
In 1991 Scott Erickson had better numbers (and more wins) than Morris, who again had the 3rd highest ERA among the primary starters.
In 1992 he again had the 3rd highest ERA of the starters (4th if you count the late season acquisition of Cone). He did not pitch nearly as effectively as Key or Guzman (or Cone for that matter). He was lit up in the WS, with an ERA approaching 9.
He was an integral part of three WS champs, but was not an ace in any of those three years.
My HOF ballot-Raines, Bagwell, Larkin, and Trammell.
Only Larkin goes in, but Raines will make a big jump to close to 60%.
Jack Morris started game 1 six times in the seven postseason series in which his teams played. That's what an ace does.
Jack Morris started game 4 three of the four times his teams played one. That's what an ace does (after starting game 1).
Jack Morris started game 7 in 1991. That's what an ace does (after already starting games 1 & 4).
I no longer necessarily believe Morris is a HOF'er but to argue he wasn't the ace of the staffs in 1984 and 1991 is just not correct. He got the most starts, pitched the most innings, and was looked to for every key game both years. Was he the absolute best guy both years? Maybe not. But he was unquestionably the #1.
Tabe
<< <i>I think Larkin will be the only one to get in though I am not sold he is HOF worthy. In my opinion, if Larkin gets in then Davey Concepcion should as well. >>
How do you figure? Larkin was a near-equal defensively and big upgrade offensively over Concepcion (116 OPS+ vs 88).
Personally, I don't think Larkin belongs. He never struck me as a superstar when he was playing and he missed a TON of games. He missed over a quarter of his team's games during his career. That's a big drawback, IMHO.
Tabe
when the time comes before they stand a chance to get in.Jack Morris made a name for him self in post season play however outside of that he was just a Very Good pither not a great pithcher.If Morris gets in then you would have to consider Tiant,John,Kaat,Smith,Guidry,Reynolds.
<< <i>Morris will be like Schilling good~very good pitchers who may get in based on one post season start. >>
Nice try, but Schilling has 3116 K's versus Morris 2478. Oh and he did it in 600 less IP than Morris. He also has a career ERA of almost .5 run less than Morris.
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<< <i>You guys DO realize that the hall of fame IS a business, right? >>
and........?
whats the point?
IMF
<< <i>
<< <i>You guys DO realize that the hall of fame IS a business, right? >>
and........?
whats the point?
IMF >>
Someone gets in every year, at least one person, every year going forward.
Its good for business
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<< <i>Petry had the best numbers in 1984 but there was no doubt that Morris was The Man on that staff. Ditto for 1991.
Jack Morris started game 1 six times in the seven postseason series in which his teams played. That's what an ace does.
Jack Morris started game 4 three of the four times his teams played one. That's what an ace does (after starting game 1).
Jack Morris started game 7 in 1991. That's what an ace does (after already starting games 1 & 4).
I no longer necessarily believe Morris is a HOF'er but to argue he wasn't the ace of the staffs in 1984 and 1991 is just not correct. He got the most starts, pitched the most innings, and was looked to for every key game both years. Was he the absolute best guy both years? Maybe not. But he was unquestionably the #1.
Tabe >>