<< <i>Petry had the best numbers in 1984 but there was no doubt that Morris was The Man on that staff. Ditto for 1991.
I no longer necessarily believe Morris is a HOF'er but to argue he wasn't the ace of the staffs in 1984 and 1991 is just not correct. He got the most starts, pitched the most innings, and was looked to for every key game both years. Was he the absolute best guy both years? Maybe not. But he was unquestionably the #1.
In 84 Morris pitched 7 more innings than Petry with an ERA 1/3 of a run higher. Call him what you want, Petry was the better pitcher.
In 91 he pitched 2 more innings than Tapani with an ERA nearly 1/2 of a run higher. Both Tapani and Petry had K/BB ratios that were far superior to Morris'. Call him what you will, but in neither year was he the best pitcher on his team. Facts are a bit*h.
Jack Morris WILL be selected to the Hall of Fame. Why? Because only one player in the history of the ballot has ever gotten over 50% of the votes and not eventually gotten in (Gil Hodges). Morris qualifies.
<< <i>Jack Morris was the ace of 3 different world champions and was the only consistently dominant and winning pitcher in the 80s until Gooden and Clemens came along. From 1979-1986 he was one of the top 5 starters in baseball just about every year, and had 2 more great years in 1991 and 1992 after he left the Tigers. This was an era where AL pitchers were getting absolutely crushed by Mattingly, Murray, Winfield, Yount, Brett, Henderson, etc...., and Morris was the only pitcher that put up consistent win totals for the entire decade as well as putting up high strikeout totals. His ERA was high, but ERA's were high across the board. He was consistently the one AL pitcher in the 80s that you wanted to buy tickets to see when he took the hill in your town.
If you don't think Morris is a HOFer than you weren't paying very close attention to the AL in the 80s. >>
Dave Stieb’s career run support, relative to league average - 94.6% Jack Morris’s career run support, relative to league average – 107.1%
An average pitcher with Dave Stieb’s run support would have a .472 career winning percentage. For Stieb, that translates to a record of 148-165. His actual record? 176-137. An average pitcher with Jack Morris’s run support would have a .532 career winning percentage. For Morris, that translates to a record of 234-205. His actual record? 254-186.
Stieb was 28 wins above average Morris was 20 wins above average.
oh btw, Stieb also had 115 fewer starts.
Morris may have been the wins leader of the decade, but he wasn't the best pitcher of the decade. Morris had longevity and memorable post-season moments over Stieb, but that's about it, and I'm guessing most people here aren't pro-Stieb for the HOF. >>
+1 for a Stieb reference.
Next MONTH? So he's saying that if he wins, the best-case scenario is that he'll be paying for it two weeks after the auction ends?
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
HOFers in my book, who cares if they lifted weights, it was the "Home Gym Era" and these 3 could hit
but I also think JJackson and Rose should be in the Hall as well
McGriff is close and Larkin in (I guess) close, Raines is close
Stieb was better than Morris, and both are NOT HOFers
Larkin, 19 seasons and never led the league in a single category.... and ONLY 2340 hits with a .295 Ave... only once in 19 seasons did he have more than 174 hits.... his best stat is prob the stolen bases but even they are NOT noteworthy... 162 game ave 15 HRs, 71 RBI, .295 he was solid but far from a HOFer in my eyes.
In 1984 Dan Petry had better numbers than Morris (JM had the 3rd worst ERA of the four primary starters) In 1991 Scott Erickson had better numbers (and more wins) than Morris, who again had the 3rd highest ERA among the primary starters. In 1992 he again had the 3rd highest ERA of the starters (4th if you count the late season acquisition of Cone). He did not pitch nearly as effectively as Key or Guzman (or Cone for that matter). He was lit up in the WS, with an ERA approaching 9.
He was an integral part of three WS champs, but was not an ace in any of those three years.
I'm sorry, I always thought the ace of the staff was the guy the manager would choose to put on the hill if he needed a win. I didn't realize it was the guy that put up the best stats in any one given season. By that logic Gene Bearden was the ace of the '48 Indians and Mike Cuellar was the ace of the '70 Orioles. Funny that Feller and Palmer ended up pitching WS Game 1 for their teams.
Anybody arguing that Dan Petry was the ace of the 1984 Tigers is so wrapped up into stats that they have no reasonable perspective on how teams actually win championships. Jack Morris started Game 1&4 of the 1984 WS, 1991 WS and 1992 WS (he actually pitched game 1&5 in this one). The managers of those teams believed he was their ace. So HOF manager Sparky thinks Morris was the ace and markj111 on the baseball card message board thinks Petry was the ace. Tough call.
Dave Stieb was a very good pitcher on a very bad team with no fan support. Put him on the Tigers, Phillies or Cardinals with the same exact stats and maybe he's a cult hero and HOFer like Ozzie Smith, Kirby Puckett, etc.... Whether you agree with it or not it's not always about the stats.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I still think the Crime Dog should get more consideration from the voters. He should at least be considered one of the 'borderline' guys, but he's hovering around 20%, and you don't hear about him much in the conversation.
Just short of 500 HR, just short of 2500 H, .377 career .OBP (.385 in the postseason), five-time All-Star, six time top-10 in the MVP voting, drove in at least 80 runs fifteen years in a row, and he did it clean in an era where many (most?) of his peers did not. And he's got all that going for him BEFORE you even take the Tom Emanski instructional videos into consideration!
'Sir, I realize it's been difficult for you to sleep at night without your EX/MT 1977 Topps Tom Seaver, but I swear to you that you'll get it safe and sound.' -CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
Morris was a very good pitcher but not HOF worthy. Bagwell is very deserving. Yes, he lifted weights and took supplements, SO WHAT. Most of the players in baseball did the same thing. I'll give a free pass to anyone that didn't break any rules or fail any drug tests, period.
Although neither are a lock, I think Larkin and Raines are the best of the bunch. I do not understand how anyone can vote for Jack Morris. Anyone that allows nearly four runs per game has no business in the Hall. He may have had a few big games but single game performances do not represent the "Body of Work" that must exist to get into the Hall. If that were the case we should elect Don Larsen (World Series Perfect Game), Joe Ad*ock (Four Homers and a Double in one game), Bob Horner (Four Homers in a game), etc. Besides, it wasn't like Jack Morris was a victory machine either as he won twenty games just three times in his career. He also led the league in strikeouts just one time and had a career WHIP of 1.30. Jack Morris was a good pitcher but not even close to a Hall of Famer.
Probably only Larkin. Long shots Jack Morris and Tim Raines, Jeff Bagwell and Lee Smith. Raines absolutely belongs in, nobody is going to put those stolen base totals in baseball today. The active leader in SBs Juan Pierre is 250+SBs behind Raines and Pierre's career is nearly over and his .294 AVG is higher than Henderson and Brock. No question about it Hall of Famer. If Bill Mazeroski, Jim Rice, Orlando Cepeda and Tony Perez are Hall of Famers, Rock Raines sure deserves to be. 37.5% on Raines 4th try is an insult. Morris was maybe the greatest pitcher of the 1980's . He threw a ton of wild pitches making his ERA look less than stellar. Lee Smith is another no brainer, if Bruce Sutter is in Lee Smith belongs in. Bagwell is probably clean and deserves the Hall. I hope all 5 of those guys.
Comments
<< <i>Petry had the best numbers in 1984 but there was no doubt that Morris was The Man on that staff. Ditto for 1991.
I no longer necessarily believe Morris is a HOF'er but to argue he wasn't the ace of the staffs in 1984 and 1991 is just not correct. He got the most starts, pitched the most innings, and was looked to for every key game both years. Was he the absolute best guy both years? Maybe not. But he was unquestionably the #1.
In 84 Morris pitched 7 more innings than Petry with an ERA 1/3 of a run higher. Call him what you want, Petry was the better pitcher.
In 91 he pitched 2 more innings than Tapani with an ERA nearly 1/2 of a run higher. Both Tapani and Petry had K/BB ratios that were far superior to Morris'. Call him what you will, but in neither year was he the best pitcher on his team. Facts are a bit*h.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jack Morris was the ace of 3 different world champions and was the only consistently dominant and winning pitcher in the 80s until Gooden and Clemens came along. From 1979-1986 he was one of the top 5 starters in baseball just about every year, and had 2 more great years in 1991 and 1992 after he left the Tigers. This was an era where AL pitchers were getting absolutely crushed by Mattingly, Murray, Winfield, Yount, Brett, Henderson, etc...., and Morris was the only pitcher that put up consistent win totals for the entire decade as well as putting up high strikeout totals. His ERA was high, but ERA's were high across the board. He was consistently the one AL pitcher in the 80s that you wanted to buy tickets to see when he took the hill in your town.
If you don't think Morris is a HOFer than you weren't paying very close attention to the AL in the 80s. >>
Dave Stieb says hi
Dave Stieb’s career run support, relative to league average - 94.6%
Jack Morris’s career run support, relative to league average – 107.1%
An average pitcher with Dave Stieb’s run support would have a .472 career winning percentage. For Stieb, that translates to a record of 148-165. His actual record? 176-137.
An average pitcher with Jack Morris’s run support would have a .532 career winning percentage. For Morris, that translates to a record of 234-205. His actual record? 254-186.
Stieb was 28 wins above average
Morris was 20 wins above average.
oh btw, Stieb also had 115 fewer starts.
Morris may have been the wins leader of the decade, but he wasn't the best pitcher of the decade. Morris had longevity and memorable post-season moments over Stieb, but that's about it, and I'm guessing most people here aren't pro-Stieb for the HOF. >>
+1 for a Stieb reference.
Forget blocking him; find out where he lives and go punch him in the nuts. --WalterSobchak 9/12/12
Looking for Al Hrabosky and any OPC Dave Campbells (the ESPN guy)
HOFers in my book, who cares if they lifted weights, it was the "Home Gym Era" and these 3 could hit
but I also think JJackson and Rose should be in the Hall as well
McGriff is close and Larkin in (I guess) close, Raines is close
Stieb was better than Morris, and both are NOT HOFers
Larkin, 19 seasons and never led the league in a single category.... and ONLY 2340 hits with a .295 Ave... only once in 19 seasons did he have more than 174 hits.... his best stat is prob the stolen bases but even they are NOT noteworthy... 162 game ave 15 HRs, 71 RBI, .295
he was solid but far from a HOFer in my eyes.
In 1984 Dan Petry had better numbers than Morris (JM had the 3rd worst ERA of the four primary starters)
In 1991 Scott Erickson had better numbers (and more wins) than Morris, who again had the 3rd highest ERA among the primary starters.
In 1992 he again had the 3rd highest ERA of the starters (4th if you count the late season acquisition of Cone). He did not pitch nearly as effectively as Key or Guzman (or Cone for that matter). He was lit up in the WS, with an ERA approaching 9.
He was an integral part of three WS champs, but was not an ace in any of those three years.
I'm sorry, I always thought the ace of the staff was the guy the manager would choose to put on the hill if he needed a win. I didn't realize it was the guy that put up the best stats in any one given season. By that logic Gene Bearden was the ace of the '48 Indians and Mike Cuellar was the ace of the '70 Orioles. Funny that Feller and Palmer ended up pitching WS Game 1 for their teams.
Anybody arguing that Dan Petry was the ace of the 1984 Tigers is so wrapped up into stats that they have no reasonable perspective on how teams actually win championships. Jack Morris started Game 1&4 of the 1984 WS, 1991 WS and 1992 WS (he actually pitched game 1&5 in this one). The managers of those teams believed he was their ace. So HOF manager Sparky thinks Morris was the ace and markj111 on the baseball card message board thinks Petry was the ace. Tough call.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Just short of 500 HR, just short of 2500 H, .377 career .OBP (.385 in the postseason), five-time All-Star, six time top-10 in the MVP voting, drove in at least 80 runs fifteen years in a row, and he did it clean in an era where many (most?) of his peers did not. And he's got all that going for him BEFORE you even take the Tom Emanski instructional videos into consideration!
-CDs Nuts, 1/20/14
*1956 Topps baseball- 97.4% complete, 7.24 GPA
*Clemente basic set: 85.0% complete, 7.89 GPA
<< <i>Don't forget, Morris also pitched to the score..
I'll betcha Morris didn't eat fried chicken, play video games & drink beer in the clubhouse during games either....
IMF
Morris was a very good pitcher but not HOF worthy. Bagwell is very deserving. Yes, he lifted weights and took supplements, SO WHAT. Most of the players in baseball did the same thing. I'll give a free pass to anyone that didn't break any rules or fail any drug tests, period.