<< <i>On the surface this seems very excessive to me.
If others are not willing to take the risk on many of these items due to poor scans and so forth and you end up winning them at greatly reduced selling prices it appears to me you are only looking for upside and no downside. It is really not a risk to you because your plan is to return it if you are not instantly in a profit.
If you get a card advertised as sharp corners and great condition and it grades a PSA 9 or PSA 10 do you send the seller some remuneration for your large profit at their expense?
I am of the mind set that unless there is blatant misrepresentation that the buyer took the chance and now owns it.
There may be many examples in your situation that warrant a return. In over 1000+ EBAY transaction in the past two years I have only asked for a refund or a reduced selling price once and in another transaction mentioned to a seller that the card was creased and he volunteered to send me more cards at his expense. Many cards have come over graded or slightly damaged and I was not thrilled with them. The way I look at it is hopefully more times then not I get a card that is really nice at a good price and it more then makes up for the dogs.
I have never once had any problems with cards I have sold because they are well represented and packed excellently so I have no experience from the selling side in an event like this.
I think the question you must ask yourself is how would you respond if a similar situation was done to you on a card or cards you sold. >>
first of all, some of the selling prices were far from "greatly reduced", in fact they were competitively inflated.....lest we forget, i'm quite likely not the only one who uses such an approach to winning auctions with ambiguous descriptions, and i know who some of my competitors are, too.
as i mentioned earlier in the thread, i have plenty of properly described raw cards, and i'm quite happy with them.
i've paid well for stuff. i've also been fortunate in winning items which fell through the cracks. and there are the cards which i took a shot and won, but they didn't quite meet expectations.
they were, however, properly described.
if it was only about making a profit, i'd be way more aggressive, buying truckloads of stuff to sift through, so i could do daily set breaks and midnight high end PSA auctions.
there are folks who do that stuff already. quite well.
It still amazes me how someone has to defend themselves so much just for expecting to get what they paid for. FWIW, I've never dealt with Jeff but from his posts he seems like a reasonable guy and I wouldn't hesitate to deal with him and I surely wouldn't block him from buying from me.
i knew what to expect by posting about this here. i would expect no less from my forum compadres.
constructive criticism is fine by me. support me or don't, all opinions are important.
i applaud any situation where people can share their ideas and not have it turn into a flame war. >>
I've stayed out of this, but here's what confuses me. I'm not judging it, just saying it confuses me.
We all agree that expecting a refund if the card is not as described is a given. No one expects the buyer to eat all those. My question is that we seem to be blurring the line between requesting a refund and opening a case here. I always thought opening a case was something you do if the seller won't refund, is unresponsive, or ends up being a crook. IOW, a polite request didn't work and you have to escalate. I've asked for and gotten dozens of refunds over the years, but only had to open ONE case, and I consider myself a hardass buyer when it comes to misgrading.
Assuming you and I had the same ratio of refund requests to cases, that means you've probably requested roughly 300 refunds this year. Is this accurate?
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Clearly a case of "abuse" of the system here. Glad to see ebay limit you to 15 claims per year from now on. Thats 14 more claims than I have made on ebay in the past 7 years. Some items on ebay are winners, some are losers.....seems you want ebay to hedge your bets for you, and thats just wrong.
<< <i>Clearly a case of "abuse" of the system here. Glad to see ebay limit you to 15 claims per year from now on. Thats 14 more claims than I have made on ebay in the past 7 years. Some items on ebay are winners, some are losers.....seems you want ebay to hedge your bets for you, and thats just wrong. >>
ahhhhhh. thank you for buttering my toast.
the limit has always been in place. what do we know about enforcement? how often has that aspect of life on eBay been discussed here?
i don't expect them to CMA when i bid and subsequently win a properly represented item.
let me give you a really good example.....i've fallen out of favor with a seller because i wanted to return some improperly described raw cards, including cards which had stains on the back.
he contended that i had benefitted from his past auctions by winning certain cards which graded well, and in his opinion, that meant i was making money off of him, so why was i complaining?
take the bad with the good? no. i bought each and every card in good faith based on description and representation. what he failed to realize was that i also graded some of his cards down from the descriptions, and some not at all.....i never attempted to return any of them until recently when it became clear to me that his quality control was severly diminished, or more realistically the cards he was selling were of diminished quality and he was unwilling to be honest about it.
and this is a seller whom i praised dozens of times in the feedback forum.
the system allows me to contest a transaction which i feel is unfair. i have the right to prove it. i kept lots of extra scans and sometimes i needed to use them.
if i didn't get a response from a seller within 24 hours, and usually it was more like 48 or even 72 hours BECAUSE i wanted very much to give every single one the benefit of the doubt before i pursued my right to seek support from eBay, then i did what was allowable under the parameters of the system.
Big difference between sending back grossly misrepresented cards and cherry picking. It has been said and rightly so that all 8s are not equal. Is this a case of "buying on approval?"
itzagoner seems pretty reasonable and takes criticism better than most on here so let me make another point. You mention that every seller should disclose gum stains, etc.... The people on these boards are amongst the most finicky collectors in the world. I have been a card collector since 1974 and it wasn't until I started grading cards that I even noticed stuff like wax/gum stains, centering, etc.... I had always looked for 4 sharp corners and that was it. I thus think you assuming that all sellers are aware of these other problems is a just wrong. The people on these boards pay attention to all those details but not the majority of card collectors.
Larry I think that is an excellent point. 90% of EBAY sellers do not really know what NM-MT is. I have PSA 8's that many sellers would think were Gem Mint. Centering issues or minor print dots etc. that many do not realize hamper the grade.
Wax stains in this day in age are a little more known then say a card that is 60/40 centering not being a real mint card or a print dot making a card technically a PSA 7 if mint otherwise.
If you are talking about cards that are advertised as NM-MT that have creases or truly soft corners then that is one thing but a notch or two below because of technical factors is not called for.
Since you are really being open and not aggressive towards questions or thoughts can you post an auction that you won that you had an issue with and explain what happened?
I would think show and tell would really help here.
<< <i>itzagoner seems pretty reasonable and takes criticism better than most on here so let me make another point. You mention that every seller should disclose gum stains, etc.... The people on these boards are amongst the most finicky collectors in the world. I have been a card collector since 1974 and it wasn't until I started grading cards that I even noticed stuff like wax/gum stains, centering, etc.... I had always looked for 4 sharp corners and that was it. I thus think you assuming that all sellers are aware of these other problems is a just wrong. The people on these boards pay attention to all those details but not the majority of card collectors. >>
the seller in question re: stains is very experienced to the tune of thousands of transactions, so i would not accept that as his excuse.
i have had correspondence with others who are newer to such expectations, and offered them explanations to the best of my ability.
just as you pointed out, there are people who don't know what we know, so i took that into consideration.
<< <i>Since you are really being open and not aggressive towards questions or thoughts can you post an auction that you won that you had an issue with and explain what happened?
I would think show and tell would really help here. >>
heh heh. you want me to start outing sellers?
ok. fair enough. i'll give you an example, in fact the most recent one on record. the card i'm posting was bid based on the appearance in the scan combined with the description, however, when i received it, there was a surface crease on the front next to Ray's head that somehow didn't show up in the scan.
i followed through with the return and refund process as i've described previously.
<< <i>Clearly a case of "abuse" of the system here. Glad to see ebay limit you to 15 claims per year from now on. Thats 14 more claims than I have made on ebay in the past 7 years. Some items on ebay are winners, some are losers.....seems you want ebay to hedge your bets for you, and thats just wrong. >>
ahhhhhh. thank you for buttering my toast.
the limit has always been in place. what do we know about enforcement? how often has that aspect of life on eBay been discussed here?
i don't expect them to CMA when i bid and subsequently win a properly represented item.
let me give you a really good example.....i've fallen out of favor with a seller because i wanted to return some improperly described raw cards, including cards which had stains on the back.
he contended that i had benefitted from his past auctions by winning certain cards which graded well, and in his opinion, that meant i was making money off of him, so why was i complaining?
take the bad with the good? no. i bought each and every card in good faith based on description and representation. what he failed to realize was that i also graded some of his cards down from the descriptions, and some not at all.....i never attempted to return any of them until recently when it became clear to me that his quality control was severly diminished, or more realistically the cards he was selling were of diminished quality and he was unwilling to be honest about it.
and this is a seller whom i praised dozens of times in the feedback forum.
the system allows me to contest a transaction which i feel is unfair. i have the right to prove it. i kept lots of extra scans and sometimes i needed to use them.
if i didn't get a response from a seller within 24 hours, and usually it was more like 48 or even 72 hours BECAUSE i wanted very much to give every single one the benefit of the doubt before i pursued my right to seek support from eBay, then i did what was allowable under the parameters of the system. >>
That is a great example and perhaps one that is warranted. The scan clearly looks like a NM card and if there is a crease it is a PSA 3 if lucky. I would eat a few dollar loss like this but you are certainly within your rights not too.
I sometimes wonder why I am so nice to some sellers.
If most are because of creases and other highly damaging issues this sounds legit to me. I would never do so but everyone approaches EBAY differently and if a seller over looked a crease then they should not be upset when you find it and don't want the card.
I think you have made your point and if the other examples are very similar I don't really see much wrong here.
<< <i>That is a great example and perhaps one that is warranted. The scan clearly looks like a NM card and if there is a crease it is a PSA 3 if lucky. I would eat a few dollar loss like this but you are certainly within your rights not too.
I sometimes wonder why I am so nice to some sellers.
If most are because of creases and other highly damaging issues this sounds legit to me. I would never do so but everyone approaches EBAY differently and if a seller over looked a crease then they should not be upset when you find it and don't want the card.
I think you have made your point and if the other examples are very similar I don't really see much wrong here. >>
So he has to open a case on the card? A little bit of communication goes a long way towards resolving problems. Tell the 100% feedback seller that theres a crease and im 100% sure he refunds without incident. Opening a case should be reserved for those times where the seller blows you off for a week......not 24 hours after your $12 new purchase made you sad.
I am with itzagoner here. If sellers are overgrading cards compared to what the industry sees as an acceptable grading scale then there is nothing wrong with wanting a refund. I am sorry but there are a large amount of sellers on eBay who grossly overgrade sports cards, comics etc. They know they are doing this and hope that most buyers just don't understand true grades and they get away with this the majority of the time.
If a seller represents a card as what would be considered a PSA 8, BGS 8, SGC 8 and it is likely to grade at anything less than that then you should get a refund. Now if the seller really can't grade that well and they want to sell raw then they better stick to giving the buyers really high res pics so you can judge yourself.
EDIT: Actually missed the fact that you are opening cases within roughly 24 hours of initial contact. Not everyone is around their eBay account daily or has a smartphone pushing emails to let them know you are trying to get ahold of them. I say to give them 5 days then if no communication then you open a case. I have opened 9 cases this year either because a seller overgraded the collectible or shipped the raw item in such a poor manner it was damaged in the mail (If you collect raw comics this happens way too often, hell even had this happen to a vintage Star Wars figure on what was a MINT card before poor shipping). I gave each seller 5 + days to respond to my attempt to communicate before having to open a case though.
<< <i>I sometimes wonder why I am so nice to some sellers. >>
and you understand how powerful this statement is, no?
part of what drives me comes straight from here, reading about other people's experiences and their dissatisfaction with the "system".
one of the things i remember early on about this forum is when i started really examining eBay complaints and the contention that sellers think a small transaction isn't worth contesting if you feel cheated.
why bother? it's only a few bucks. but, not if it's happening to dozens or hundreds of people.
Gecko I am not making reference to the timing of opening a case or a case in general.
I am just agreeing that if a card has a crease and the seller did not disclose that or even know it, asking for a refund is not out of line.
I have eaten large purchases with creases so I do not approach the hobby this way but after doing so a number of times I have pulled in my horns considerably on raw cards.
<< <i>That is a great example and perhaps one that is warranted. The scan clearly looks like a NM card and if there is a crease it is a PSA 3 if lucky. I would eat a few dollar loss like this but you are certainly within your rights not too.
I sometimes wonder why I am so nice to some sellers.
If most are because of creases and other highly damaging issues this sounds legit to me. I would never do so but everyone approaches EBAY differently and if a seller over looked a crease then they should not be upset when you find it and don't want the card.
I think you have made your point and if the other examples are very similar I don't really see much wrong here. >>
Sure, it's refund-worthy. But did the seller balk at refunding or did the OP start a case right from the start? I'm still unclear on his M.O. in these cases.
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<< <i>I sometimes wonder why I am so nice to some sellers. >>
and you understand how powerful this statement is, no?
part of what drives me comes straight from here, reading about other people's experiences and their dissatisfaction with the "system".
one of the things i remember early on about this forum is when i started really examining eBay complaints and the contention that sellers think a small transaction isn't worth contesting if you feel cheated.
why bother? it's only a few bucks. but, not if it's happening to dozens or hundreds of people.
if no one complains about it, nothing gets done. >>
Amen, this is why I get upset when people post about sellers who normally have 100% feedback or are powersellers and do something to deserve a neg but they eventually give a refund when they feel it is finally a good time to do it and people still give a positive or just don't leave feedback at all. Defeats the purpose of the feedback system.
clarifying the 24 hour thing.....i didn't set my alarm clock to zero hour, guys.
most of the time i waited 2 or 3 days before moving on with the process.....if i can't get a response within 3 days from someone who is active on eBay, i kinda feel by then i'm being avoided.
Jeff you are the man and I know you know what you are doing and were are all just having fun at this point. But its still fun. My question to come means Dicccccccc so its just a drunk question at this point. Only fun topic I gues. But what iffff. << What if the seller just put a pic up and said the cards were ,, well preserved and sharp. Pic looked Nm-Mt to Mint but when in hand they were Ex. Would you return them if he never said they were Nm-Mt but they looked like it in the scan? >> Just saying bc most sellers Just say > "well preserved clean card" So you bid and its not. But it was a 10 to 1 pay out. I understand that but ebay will not like it if they can give a 100% quaranteed to make you money system. Just cant happen. I also am happy to see a limit on this ebay situation. Sorry you had some issues. And I wish you happy collecting days. Im just happy this is the worst of your problems! It could be worse of course. Happy to be here. Baseball cards from 1991 fleer Dobalina!
<< <i>clarifying the 24 hour thing.....i didn't set my alarm clock to zero hour, guys.
most of the time i waited 2 or 3 days before moving on with the process.....if i can't get a response within 3 days from someone who is active on eBay, i kinda feel by then i'm being avoided.
ok. done with that one. >>
There is nothing wrong with what you are doing. I could probably fill a monster box with cards that were not described correctly, but instead of sending them back I kept them.
The only time I request a refund is when the card arrives damaged due to poor packaging. (Just last week I returned a raw NM 1960 Topps Maris card that showed up in a wrinkled, soaking wet PWE)
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I think Jeff created this thread so he can see who has comprehension issues.
That's pretty hard when he keeps changing the story.
The latest version now of waiting 2-3 days before opening a case is acceptable behavior.
What the truth is, we'll never know.
Nobody is questioning his right to return a problem card, it's how he initially claimed he handled the returns that irked both Ebay and readers lacking comprehension issues.
<< <i>Jeff you are the man and I know you know what you are doing and were are all just having fun at this point. But its still fun. My question to come means Dicccccccc so its just a drunk question at this point. Only fun topic I gues. But what iffff. << What if the seller just put a pic up and said the cards were ,, well preserved and sharp. Pic looked Nm-Mt to Mint but when in hand they were Ex. Would you return them if he never said they were Nm-Mt but they looked like it in the scan? >> Just saying bc most sellers Just say > "well preserved clean card" So you bid and its not. But it was a 10 to 1 pay out. I understand that but ebay will not like it if they can give a 100% quaranteed to make you money system. Just cant happen. I also am happy to see a limit on this ebay situation. Sorry you had some issues. And I wish you happy collecting days. Im just happy this is the worst of your problems! It could be worse of course. Happy to be here. Baseball cards from 1991 fleer Dobalina! >>
<< <i>I think Jeff created this thread so he can see who has comprehension issues.
That's pretty hard when he keeps changing the story.
The latest version now of waiting 2-3 days before opening a case is acceptable behavior.
What the truth is, we'll never know.
Nobody is questioning his right to return a problem card, it's how he initially claimed he handled the returns that irked both Ebay and readers lacking comprehension issues. >>
KbKards, you don't have comprehension issues, and i'm glad you're paying attention.
i reread the thread. so that i can clarify anything which may seem confusing to anyone.
i notified the seller FIRST of my concerns regarding a purchased item, unless i felt blatant dishonesty might hinder any progress by doing so. by that assumption, i filed right away.
otherwise, i waited to hear back from the seller in question.
whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED.
i enforced my right to be protected.
in hindsight, i can agree with anyone who says that many of these situations would have been best handled WITHOUT the filing of a complaint, and just let the return/refund happen and move on.
i've maintained my position for 3 years and never altered my approach, until now. i've been instructed by eBay on the methods they feel will best help me accomplish my goals.
I don't think he changed his story once. He has added information for those people (like you) who kept insisting what he did was wrong.
On page 2 he replied to YOU after you said: "You are only allowed to file a claim after you have tried to work it out with a seller"
"according to policy, the seller has 24 hours to respond to my direct complaint, after which i have the right to file.....it's an ambiguous system, to be sure, but the important factor here is that i follow protocol, and they never accused me of NOT following protocol"
Only after being pressed for exact information did he then add that he has at times waited 2 and 3 days.
And, at least 3 times he answered YOU with "Maybe you should go back and re read what I just posted."
I don't think he changed his story once. He has added information for those people (like you) who kept insisting what he did was wrong.
On page 2 he replied to YOU after you said: "You are only allowed to file a claim after you have tried to work it out with a seller"
"according to policy, the seller has 24 hours to respond to my direct complaint, after which i have the right to file.....it's an ambiguous system, to be sure, but the important factor here is that i follow protocol, and they never accused me of NOT following protocol"
Only after being pressed for exact information did he then add that he has at times waited 2 and 3 days.
And, at least 3 times he answered YOU with "Maybe you should go back and re read what I just posted." >>
Yes, and then Jeff posted this little gem in a post just above:
"whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED"
And this is what irks ebay, and many members here. Reading comprehension notwithstanding.
"whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED"
Jeff, please explain this personal policy of yours. I could definately see filing a claim against a seller if he simply was dodging you for a week. But what about the seller who contacts you back right away (within a day) and says he will refund you, no problems? Why would you open a claim against that guy? Seems pretty D-baggish to me.
<< <i>"whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED"
Jeff, please explain this personal policy of yours. I could definately see filing a claim against a seller if he simply was dodging you for a week. But what about the seller who contacts you back right away (within a day) and says he will refund you, no problems? Why would you open a claim against that guy? Seems pretty D-baggish to me. >>
pretty simple, actually. because eBay will act as the intermediary between myself and the seller once the filing has been made.
heck, they're the ones who brought us together in the first place.
once the filing process is enacted and they become involved, there is certain required information, including a tracking number for the return which needs to be disclosed to the seller and eBay.....btw, i'm obligated to pay for the cost of returning the item unless the seller offers to do so, but only a few ever have.....i don't complain about it, nor do i consider it any kind of admission on the behalf of the seller.
now, the protective measure is in place because i can prove through the Postal Service that i actually sent the item back.
without such a protective measure in place, it is only my word vs. the seller, and if the seller balks at my demands after receiving the card, i'd need to file a complaint anyways.
<< <i>"whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED"
Jeff, please explain this personal policy of yours. I could definately see filing a claim against a seller if he simply was dodging you for a week. But what about the seller who contacts you back right away (within a day) and says he will refund you, no problems? Why would you open a claim against that guy? Seems pretty D-baggish to me. >>
pretty simple, actually. because eBay will act as the intermediary between myself and the seller once the filing has been made.
heck, they're the ones who brought us together in the first place.
once the filing process is enacted and they become involved, there is certain required information, including a tracking number for the return which needs to be disclosed to the seller and eBay.....btw, i'm obligated to pay for the cost of returning the item unless the seller offers to do so, but only a few ever have.....i don't complain about it, nor do i consider it any kind of admission on the behalf of the seller.
now, the protective measure is in place because i can prove through the Postal Service that i actually sent the item back.
without such a protective measure in place, it is only my word vs. the seller, and if the seller balks at my demands after receiving the card, i'd need to file a complaint anyways. >>
Everything you described doing is S.O.P. for a regular, agreed-upon return, isn't it? I just don't see what opening a case accomplishes in most cases, except to set the seller up for an Ebay ban or a hit on his seller status. If just a handful of buyers were to follow your protocol, a good seller with a handful of disputed grades would get banned, even if he were 100% willing to refund in every case.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
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<< <i>"whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED"
Jeff, please explain this personal policy of yours. I could definately see filing a claim against a seller if he simply was dodging you for a week. But what about the seller who contacts you back right away (within a day) and says he will refund you, no problems? Why would you open a claim against that guy? Seems pretty D-baggish to me. >>
pretty simple, actually. because eBay will act as the intermediary between myself and the seller once the filing has been made.
heck, they're the ones who brought us together in the first place.
once the filing process is enacted and they become involved, there is certain required information, including a tracking number for the return which needs to be disclosed to the seller and eBay.....btw, i'm obligated to pay for the cost of returning the item unless the seller offers to do so, but only a few ever have.....i don't complain about it, nor do i consider it any kind of admission on the behalf of the seller.
now, the protective measure is in place because i can prove through the Postal Service that i actually sent the item back.
without such a protective measure in place, it is only my word vs. the seller, and if the seller balks at my demands after receiving the card, i'd need to file a complaint anyways. >>
Your logic makes almost no sense. The perfect analogy would be if the neighbor's kid threw a baseball through my window. I walk to the neighbor's house, and his dad apologizes and tells me he will pay for the damage. Then I walk back home and call the police and then apply for a hearing in small claims court.
This is what you are doing when a seller tells you he will refund you, and you still open a claim. If the neighbor kid's dad told you to pound sand, THEN you need to explore other options........but not if he says he will pay for the damage.
Are you SO distrusting of the ebay seller community that you feel the need to get mommy.....I mean ebay involved in every little instance?
hey, these observations are pretty spot on. i have no intention of disputing anyone's assessment that perhaps i've overemphasized the use of eBay's protection device.
they have decided to come forward and openly discuss it with me instead of just b!!!!!!tch-slapping me for it. that's cool.
the eBay jungle is a treacherous walk sometimes. i've been on both sides and it's not easy just accepting someone's word if you feel you've been wronged.
consider what i've done as an experiment. at times, i kind of felt that way about it, too.
the experiment didn't fail. it wasn't a rousing success, either, because obviously some folks have pretty strong opinions about it.
what it was allowed me gain more knowledge about conducting successful business on the site. i HAVE learned something from this. i expect to be better for it.
If you were rear ended by a stranger who had no insurance and the stranger PROMISED to pay for the damage, would you take his word for it or would you call the police so you could have a police report if you should have to bring them to court to get your money?
I dont see why its so hard to see what the OP is doing and why he does it. I think there are a couple people here who just want to find the loops to give the OP a hard time about his practices. Every case can be made for similar or different reasons. He probably buys hundreds of cards a year in raw form and has gotten some stinkers from bad descriptions. Havent you ever bought from Dean's Cards before? LOL
<< <i>If just a handful of buyers were to follow your protocol, a good seller with a handful of disputed grades would get banned, even if he were 100% willing to refund in every case. >>
i read this statement and dwelled on it for a bit, so let me ask you something now.....
if just a handful of buyers were following my protocol, wouldn't that indicate to you that maybe the so-called "good" seller might be more trouble than it seems on the surface.
nobody should have a handful of complaints, but if they DID, regardless of their willingness to provide refunds and satisfaction to disgruntled buyers, don't you think it would be in the best interests of potential future buyers if there were prior complaints on record?
i don't necessarily believe that the feedback system adequately covers this, but a collection of complaints will, because they don't alert the eBay community itself.
The complaints aren't seen by future buyers. If you feel you were helping the system when registering these complaints then you were doing a disservice to future buyers by not leaving the appropriate feedback that should accompany a valid complaint. It really comes down to how you'd like to be treated as a seller, and you are a higher volume seller. If buyers opened up claims against you with little or no contact then you would probably be upset.
<< <i>If just a handful of buyers were to follow your protocol, a good seller with a handful of disputed grades would get banned, even if he were 100% willing to refund in every case. >>
i read this statement and dwelled on it for a bit, so let me ask you something now.....
if just a handful of buyers were following my protocol, wouldn't that indicate to you that maybe the so-called "good" seller might be more trouble than it seems on the surface.
nobody should have a handful of complaints, but if they DID, regardless of their willingness to provide refunds and satisfaction to disgruntled buyers, don't you think it would be in the best interests of potential future buyers if there were prior complaints on record?
i don't necessarily believe that the feedback system adequately covers this, but a collection of complaints will, because they don't alert the eBay community itself.
they alert the people who run it. >>
I'd agree on principle with all of that, but doesn't Ebay hammer a seller pretty harshly even for a small handful of cases??
As for the prior complaints warning other buyers, that's EXACTLY what the feedback system is for.
I'm all for alerting Ebay to the bad sellers, but I personally hate to be responsible for subjecting an honest, cooperative seller to ANY extra Ebay scrutiny.
I think we agree far more than we disagree here; it just boils down to formal vs informal channels I think.
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<< <i>The complaints aren't seen by future buyers. If you feel you were helping the system when registering these complaints then you were doing a disservice to future buyers by not leaving the appropriate feedback that should accompany a valid complaint. It really comes down to how you'd like to be treated as a seller, and you are a higher volume seller. If buyers opened up claims against you with little or no contact then you would probably be upset. >>
never had a claim against me on the seller side. it's a huge source of pride, but i wouldn't wear it as a badge of honor or use it as an excuse.
<< <i>If you were rear ended by a stranger who had no insurance and the stranger PROMISED to pay for the damage, would you take his word for it or would you call the police so you could have a police report if you should have to bring them to court to get your money?
I dont see why its so hard to see what the OP is doing and why he does it. I think there are a couple people here who just want to find the loops to give the OP a hard time about his practices. Every case can be made for similar or different reasons. He probably buys hundreds of cards a year in raw form and has gotten some stinkers from bad descriptions. Havent you ever bought from Dean's Cards before? LOL >>
HORRIBLE analogy. Just HORRIBLE. When you take another driver's word, you have ZERO recourse once they drive off. If you take a seller's word that he'll refund, then you document the return of the item, you retain PLENTY of recourse should it go south.
---------------------- Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989 ----------------------
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Comments
<< <i>On the surface this seems very excessive to me.
If others are not willing to take the risk on many of these items due to poor scans and so forth and you end up winning them at greatly reduced selling prices it appears to me you are only looking for upside and no downside. It is really not a risk to you because your plan is to return it if you are not instantly in a profit.
If you get a card advertised as sharp corners and great condition and it grades a PSA 9 or PSA 10 do you send the seller some remuneration for your large profit at their expense?
I am of the mind set that unless there is blatant misrepresentation that the buyer took the chance and now owns it.
There may be many examples in your situation that warrant a return. In over 1000+ EBAY transaction in the past two years I have only asked for a refund or a reduced selling price once and in another transaction mentioned to a seller that the card was creased and he volunteered to send me more cards at his expense. Many cards have come over graded or slightly damaged and I was not thrilled with them. The way I look at it is hopefully more times then not I get a card that is really nice at a good price and it more then makes up for the dogs.
I have never once had any problems with cards I have sold because they are well represented and packed excellently so I have no experience from the selling side in an event like this.
I think the question you must ask yourself is how would you respond if a similar situation was done to you on a card or cards you sold. >>
first of all, some of the selling prices were far from "greatly reduced", in fact they were competitively inflated.....lest we forget, i'm quite likely not the only one who uses such an approach to winning auctions with ambiguous descriptions, and i know who some of my competitors are, too.
as i mentioned earlier in the thread, i have plenty of properly described raw cards, and i'm quite happy with them.
i've paid well for stuff. i've also been fortunate in winning items which fell through the cracks. and there are the cards which i took a shot and won, but they didn't quite meet expectations.
they were, however, properly described.
if it was only about making a profit, i'd be way more aggressive, buying truckloads of stuff to sift through, so i could do daily set breaks and midnight high end PSA auctions.
there are folks who do that stuff already. quite well.
i knew what to expect by posting about this here. i would expect no less from my forum compadres.
constructive criticism is fine by me. support me or don't, all opinions are important.
i applaud any situation where people can share their ideas and not have it turn into a flame war.
lol
<< <i>thanks chris. i appreciate that.
i knew what to expect by posting about this here. i would expect no less from my forum compadres.
constructive criticism is fine by me. support me or don't, all opinions are important.
i applaud any situation where people can share their ideas and not have it turn into a flame war. >>
I've stayed out of this, but here's what confuses me. I'm not judging it, just saying it confuses me.
We all agree that expecting a refund if the card is not as described is a given. No one expects the buyer to eat all those. My question is that we seem to be blurring the line between requesting a refund and opening a case here. I always thought opening a case was something you do if the seller won't refund, is unresponsive, or ends up being a crook. IOW, a polite request didn't work and you have to escalate. I've asked for and gotten dozens of refunds over the years, but only had to open ONE case, and I consider myself a hardass buyer when it comes to misgrading.
Assuming you and I had the same ratio of refund requests to cases, that means you've probably requested roughly 300 refunds this year. Is this accurate?
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
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i filed only after the allowable 24 hour response time had elapsed, in MOST cases.
as i mentioned earlier in the thread also, there were a few where trust was a concern, so i filed right away.
<< <i>Clearly a case of "abuse" of the system here. Glad to see ebay limit you to 15 claims per year from now on. Thats 14 more claims than I have made on ebay in the past 7 years. Some items on ebay are winners, some are losers.....seems you want ebay to hedge your bets for you, and thats just wrong. >>
ahhhhhh. thank you for buttering my toast.
the limit has always been in place. what do we know about enforcement? how often has that aspect of life on eBay been discussed here?
i don't expect them to CMA when i bid and subsequently win a properly represented item.
let me give you a really good example.....i've fallen out of favor with a seller because i wanted to return some improperly described raw cards, including cards which had stains on the back.
he contended that i had benefitted from his past auctions by winning certain cards which graded well, and in his opinion, that meant i was making money off of him, so why was i complaining?
take the bad with the good? no. i bought each and every card in good faith based on description and representation. what he failed to realize was that i also graded some of his cards down from the descriptions, and some not at all.....i never attempted to return any of them until recently when it became clear to me that his quality control was severly diminished, or more realistically the cards he was selling were of diminished quality and he was unwilling to be honest about it.
and this is a seller whom i praised dozens of times in the feedback forum.
the system allows me to contest a transaction which i feel is unfair. i have the right to prove it. i kept lots of extra scans and sometimes i needed to use them.
if i didn't get a response from a seller within 24 hours, and usually it was more like 48 or even 72 hours BECAUSE i wanted very much to give every single one the benefit of the doubt before i pursued my right to seek support from eBay, then i did what was allowable under the parameters of the system.
No you didnt. You unknowingly have been working OUTSIDE the parameters of the system. Hence the "enforcement" on the 15 claim limit now.
<< <i>"..... then i did what was allowable under the parameters of the system."
No you didnt. You unknowingly have been working OUTSIDE the parameters of the system. Hence the "enforcement" on the 15 claim limit now.
i have been warned. i promise to obey all traffic laws and curfews.
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Ralph
Wax stains in this day in age are a little more known then say a card that is 60/40 centering not being a real mint card or a print dot making a card technically a PSA 7 if mint otherwise.
If you are talking about cards that are advertised as NM-MT that have creases or truly soft corners then that is one thing but a notch or two below because of technical factors is not called for.
Since you are really being open and not aggressive towards questions or thoughts can you post an auction that you won that you had an issue with and explain what happened?
I would think show and tell would really help here.
<< <i>itzagoner seems pretty reasonable and takes criticism better than most on here so let me make another point. You mention that every seller should disclose gum stains, etc.... The people on these boards are amongst the most finicky collectors in the world. I have been a card collector since 1974 and it wasn't until I started grading cards that I even noticed stuff like wax/gum stains, centering, etc.... I had always looked for 4 sharp corners and that was it. I thus think you assuming that all sellers are aware of these other problems is a just wrong. The people on these boards pay attention to all those details but not the majority of card collectors. >>
the seller in question re: stains is very experienced to the tune of thousands of transactions, so i would not accept that as his excuse.
i have had correspondence with others who are newer to such expectations, and offered them explanations to the best of my ability.
just as you pointed out, there are people who don't know what we know, so i took that into consideration.
none of those people got negged, either.
Some people are never satisfied.
<< <i>Since you are really being open and not aggressive towards questions or thoughts can you post an auction that you won that you had an issue with and explain what happened?
I would think show and tell would really help here. >>
heh heh. you want me to start outing sellers?
ok. fair enough. i'll give you an example, in fact the most recent one on record. the card i'm posting was bid based on the appearance in the scan combined with the description, however, when i received it, there was a surface crease on the front next to Ray's head that somehow didn't show up in the scan.
i followed through with the return and refund process as i've described previously.
oh well
the seller complied and the case was closed.
One of Itzagoners lame buys.
<< <i>
<< <i>Clearly a case of "abuse" of the system here. Glad to see ebay limit you to 15 claims per year from now on. Thats 14 more claims than I have made on ebay in the past 7 years. Some items on ebay are winners, some are losers.....seems you want ebay to hedge your bets for you, and thats just wrong. >>
ahhhhhh. thank you for buttering my toast.
the limit has always been in place. what do we know about enforcement? how often has that aspect of life on eBay been discussed here?
i don't expect them to CMA when i bid and subsequently win a properly represented item.
let me give you a really good example.....i've fallen out of favor with a seller because i wanted to return some improperly described raw cards, including cards which had stains on the back.
he contended that i had benefitted from his past auctions by winning certain cards which graded well, and in his opinion, that meant i was making money off of him, so why was i complaining?
take the bad with the good? no. i bought each and every card in good faith based on description and representation. what he failed to realize was that i also graded some of his cards down from the descriptions, and some not at all.....i never attempted to return any of them until recently when it became clear to me that his quality control was severly diminished, or more realistically the cards he was selling were of diminished quality and he was unwilling to be honest about it.
and this is a seller whom i praised dozens of times in the feedback forum.
the system allows me to contest a transaction which i feel is unfair. i have the right to prove it. i kept lots of extra scans and sometimes i needed to use them.
if i didn't get a response from a seller within 24 hours, and usually it was more like 48 or even 72 hours BECAUSE i wanted very much to give every single one the benefit of the doubt before i pursued my right to seek support from eBay, then i did what was allowable under the parameters of the system. >>
Was this a modern seller?
I sometimes wonder why I am so nice to some sellers.
If most are because of creases and other highly damaging issues this sounds legit to me. I would never do so but everyone approaches EBAY differently and if a seller over looked a crease then they should not be upset when you find it and don't want the card.
I think you have made your point and if the other examples are very similar I don't really see much wrong here.
<< <i>Was this a modern seller? >>
if you mean someone who sells modern product, then, no.
<< <i>That is a great example and perhaps one that is warranted. The scan clearly looks like a NM card and if there is a crease it is a PSA 3 if lucky. I would eat a few dollar loss like this but you are certainly within your rights not too.
I sometimes wonder why I am so nice to some sellers.
If most are because of creases and other highly damaging issues this sounds legit to me. I would never do so but everyone approaches EBAY differently and if a seller over looked a crease then they should not be upset when you find it and don't want the card.
I think you have made your point and if the other examples are very similar I don't really see much wrong here. >>
So he has to open a case on the card? A little bit of communication goes a long way towards resolving problems. Tell the 100% feedback seller that theres a crease and im 100% sure he refunds without incident. Opening a case should be reserved for those times where the seller blows you off for a week......not 24 hours after your $12 new purchase made you sad.
If a seller represents a card as what would be considered a PSA 8, BGS 8, SGC 8 and it is likely to grade at anything less than that then you should get a refund. Now if the seller really can't grade that well and they want to sell raw then they better stick to giving the buyers really high res pics so you can judge yourself.
EDIT: Actually missed the fact that you are opening cases within roughly 24 hours of initial contact. Not everyone is around their eBay account daily or has a smartphone pushing emails to let them know you are trying to get ahold of them. I say to give them 5 days then if no communication then you open a case. I have opened 9 cases this year either because a seller overgraded the collectible or shipped the raw item in such a poor manner it was damaged in the mail (If you collect raw comics this happens way too often, hell even had this happen to a vintage Star Wars figure on what was a MINT card before poor shipping). I gave each seller 5 + days to respond to my attempt to communicate before having to open a case though.
<< <i>I sometimes wonder why I am so nice to some sellers. >>
and you understand how powerful this statement is, no?
part of what drives me comes straight from here, reading about other people's experiences and their dissatisfaction with the "system".
one of the things i remember early on about this forum is when i started really examining eBay complaints and the contention that sellers think a small transaction isn't worth contesting if you feel cheated.
why bother? it's only a few bucks. but, not if it's happening to dozens or hundreds of people.
if no one complains about it, nothing gets done.
I am just agreeing that if a card has a crease and the seller did not disclose that or even know it, asking for a refund is not out of line.
I have eaten large purchases with creases so I do not approach the hobby this way but after doing so a number of times I have pulled in my horns considerably on raw cards.
<< <i>That is a great example and perhaps one that is warranted. The scan clearly looks like a NM card and if there is a crease it is a PSA 3 if lucky. I would eat a few dollar loss like this but you are certainly within your rights not too.
I sometimes wonder why I am so nice to some sellers.
If most are because of creases and other highly damaging issues this sounds legit to me. I would never do so but everyone approaches EBAY differently and if a seller over looked a crease then they should not be upset when you find it and don't want the card.
I think you have made your point and if the other examples are very similar I don't really see much wrong here. >>
Sure, it's refund-worthy. But did the seller balk at refunding or did the OP start a case right from the start? I'm still unclear on his M.O. in these cases.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
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<< <i>
<< <i>I sometimes wonder why I am so nice to some sellers. >>
and you understand how powerful this statement is, no?
part of what drives me comes straight from here, reading about other people's experiences and their dissatisfaction with the "system".
one of the things i remember early on about this forum is when i started really examining eBay complaints and the contention that sellers think a small transaction isn't worth contesting if you feel cheated.
why bother? it's only a few bucks. but, not if it's happening to dozens or hundreds of people.
if no one complains about it, nothing gets done. >>
Amen, this is why I get upset when people post about sellers who normally have 100% feedback or are powersellers and do something to deserve a neg but they eventually give a refund when they feel it is finally a good time to do it and people still give a positive or just don't leave feedback at all. Defeats the purpose of the feedback system.
most of the time i waited 2 or 3 days before moving on with the process.....if i can't get a response within 3 days from someone who is active on eBay, i kinda feel by then i'm being avoided.
ok. done with that one.
<< What if the seller just put a pic up and said the cards were ,, well preserved and sharp. Pic looked Nm-Mt to Mint but when in hand they were Ex. Would you return them if he never said they were Nm-Mt but they looked like it in the scan? >>
Just saying bc most sellers Just say > "well preserved clean card" So you bid and its not. But it was a 10 to 1 pay out. I understand that but ebay will not like it if they can give a 100% quaranteed to make you money system. Just cant happen. I also am happy to see a limit on this ebay situation. Sorry you had some issues. And I wish you happy collecting days.
Im just happy this is the worst of your problems! It could be worse of course.
Happy to be here.
Baseball cards from 1991 fleer
Dobalina!
<< <i>clarifying the 24 hour thing.....i didn't set my alarm clock to zero hour, guys.
most of the time i waited 2 or 3 days before moving on with the process.....if i can't get a response within 3 days from someone who is active on eBay, i kinda feel by then i'm being avoided.
ok. done with that one. >>
There is nothing wrong with what you are doing. I could probably fill a monster box with cards that were not described correctly, but instead of sending them back I kept them.
The only time I request a refund is when the card arrives damaged due to poor packaging. (Just last week I returned a raw NM 1960 Topps Maris card that showed up in a wrinkled, soaking wet PWE)
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That's pretty hard when he keeps changing the story.
The latest version now of waiting 2-3 days before opening a case is acceptable behavior.
What the truth is, we'll never know.
Nobody is questioning his right to return a problem card, it's how he initially claimed he handled the returns that irked both Ebay and readers lacking comprehension issues.
<< <i>Jeff you are the man and I know you know what you are doing and were are all just having fun at this point. But its still fun. My question to come means Dicccccccc so its just a drunk question at this point. Only fun topic I gues. But what iffff.
<< What if the seller just put a pic up and said the cards were ,, well preserved and sharp. Pic looked Nm-Mt to Mint but when in hand they were Ex. Would you return them if he never said they were Nm-Mt but they looked like it in the scan? >>
Just saying bc most sellers Just say > "well preserved clean card" So you bid and its not. But it was a 10 to 1 pay out. I understand that but ebay will not like it if they can give a 100% quaranteed to make you money system. Just cant happen. I also am happy to see a limit on this ebay situation. Sorry you had some issues. And I wish you happy collecting days.
Im just happy this is the worst of your problems! It could be worse of course.
Happy to be here.
Baseball cards from 1991 fleer
Dobalina! >>
Huh?
<< <i>I think Jeff created this thread so he can see who has comprehension issues.
That's pretty hard when he keeps changing the story.
The latest version now of waiting 2-3 days before opening a case is acceptable behavior.
What the truth is, we'll never know.
Nobody is questioning his right to return a problem card, it's how he initially claimed he handled the returns that irked both Ebay and readers lacking comprehension issues. >>
KbKards, you don't have comprehension issues, and i'm glad you're paying attention.
i reread the thread. so that i can clarify anything which may seem confusing to anyone.
i notified the seller FIRST of my concerns regarding a purchased item, unless i felt blatant dishonesty might hinder any progress by doing so. by that assumption, i filed right away.
otherwise, i waited to hear back from the seller in question.
whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED.
i enforced my right to be protected.
in hindsight, i can agree with anyone who says that many of these situations would have been best handled WITHOUT the filing of a complaint, and just let the return/refund happen and move on.
i've maintained my position for 3 years and never altered my approach, until now. i've been instructed by eBay on the methods they feel will best help me accomplish my goals.
we'll see how it goes in 2012.
<< <i>Huh? >>
a rite of passage, i guess.
no good thread is complete w/o a handyman drunken late nite post.
i'm honored.
I don't think he changed his story once. He has added information
for those people (like you) who kept insisting what he did was wrong.
On page 2 he replied to YOU after you said: "You are only allowed to
file a claim after you have tried to work it out with a seller"
"according to policy, the seller has 24 hours to respond to my direct complaint, after which i have the right to file.....it's an ambiguous system, to be sure, but the important factor here is that i follow protocol, and they never accused me of NOT following protocol"
Only after being pressed for exact information did he then add that he has at times waited 2 and 3 days.
And, at least 3 times he answered YOU with "Maybe you should go back and re read what I just posted."
<< <i>KB
I don't think he changed his story once. He has added information
for those people (like you) who kept insisting what he did was wrong.
On page 2 he replied to YOU after you said: "You are only allowed to
file a claim after you have tried to work it out with a seller"
"according to policy, the seller has 24 hours to respond to my direct complaint, after which i have the right to file.....it's an ambiguous system, to be sure, but the important factor here is that i follow protocol, and they never accused me of NOT following protocol"
Only after being pressed for exact information did he then add that he has at times waited 2 and 3 days.
And, at least 3 times he answered YOU with "Maybe you should go back and re read what I just posted." >>
Yes, and then Jeff posted this little gem in a post just above:
"whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED"
And this is what irks ebay, and many members here. Reading comprehension notwithstanding.
Jeff, please explain this personal policy of yours. I could definately see filing a claim against a seller if he simply was dodging you for a week. But what about the seller who contacts you back right away (within a day) and says he will refund you, no problems? Why would you open a claim against that guy? Seems pretty D-baggish to me.
<< <i>"whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED"
Jeff, please explain this personal policy of yours. I could definately see filing a claim against a seller if he simply was dodging you for a week. But what about the seller who contacts you back right away (within a day) and says he will refund you, no problems? Why would you open a claim against that guy? Seems pretty D-baggish to me. >>
pretty simple, actually. because eBay will act as the intermediary between myself and the seller once the filing has been made.
heck, they're the ones who brought us together in the first place.
once the filing process is enacted and they become involved, there is certain required information, including a tracking number for the return which needs to be disclosed to the seller and eBay.....btw, i'm obligated to pay for the cost of returning the item unless the seller offers to do so, but only a few ever have.....i don't complain about it, nor do i consider it any kind of admission on the behalf of the seller.
now, the protective measure is in place because i can prove through the Postal Service that i actually sent the item back.
without such a protective measure in place, it is only my word vs. the seller, and if the seller balks at my demands after receiving the card, i'd need to file a complaint anyways.
<< <i>
<< <i>"whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED"
Jeff, please explain this personal policy of yours. I could definately see filing a claim against a seller if he simply was dodging you for a week. But what about the seller who contacts you back right away (within a day) and says he will refund you, no problems? Why would you open a claim against that guy? Seems pretty D-baggish to me. >>
pretty simple, actually. because eBay will act as the intermediary between myself and the seller once the filing has been made.
heck, they're the ones who brought us together in the first place.
once the filing process is enacted and they become involved, there is certain required information, including a tracking number for the return which needs to be disclosed to the seller and eBay.....btw, i'm obligated to pay for the cost of returning the item unless the seller offers to do so, but only a few ever have.....i don't complain about it, nor do i consider it any kind of admission on the behalf of the seller.
now, the protective measure is in place because i can prove through the Postal Service that i actually sent the item back.
without such a protective measure in place, it is only my word vs. the seller, and if the seller balks at my demands after receiving the card, i'd need to file a complaint anyways. >>
Everything you described doing is S.O.P. for a regular, agreed-upon return, isn't it? I just don't see what opening a case accomplishes in most cases, except to set the seller up for an Ebay ban or a hit on his seller status. If just a handful of buyers were to follow your protocol, a good seller with a handful of disputed grades would get banned, even if he were 100% willing to refund in every case.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
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<< <i>
<< <i>"whether or not i heard back from anyone, be it right away or 2 days, 3 days, 7 days or not at all, I FILED"
Jeff, please explain this personal policy of yours. I could definately see filing a claim against a seller if he simply was dodging you for a week. But what about the seller who contacts you back right away (within a day) and says he will refund you, no problems? Why would you open a claim against that guy? Seems pretty D-baggish to me. >>
pretty simple, actually. because eBay will act as the intermediary between myself and the seller once the filing has been made.
heck, they're the ones who brought us together in the first place.
once the filing process is enacted and they become involved, there is certain required information, including a tracking number for the return which needs to be disclosed to the seller and eBay.....btw, i'm obligated to pay for the cost of returning the item unless the seller offers to do so, but only a few ever have.....i don't complain about it, nor do i consider it any kind of admission on the behalf of the seller.
now, the protective measure is in place because i can prove through the Postal Service that i actually sent the item back.
without such a protective measure in place, it is only my word vs. the seller, and if the seller balks at my demands after receiving the card, i'd need to file a complaint anyways. >>
Your logic makes almost no sense. The perfect analogy would be if the neighbor's kid threw a baseball through my window. I walk to the neighbor's house, and his dad apologizes and tells me he will pay for the damage. Then I walk back home and call the police and then apply for a hearing in small claims court.
This is what you are doing when a seller tells you he will refund you, and you still open a claim. If the neighbor kid's dad told you to pound sand, THEN you need to explore other options........but not if he says he will pay for the damage.
Are you SO distrusting of the ebay seller community that you feel the need to get mommy.....I mean ebay involved in every little instance?
they have decided to come forward and openly discuss it with me instead of just b!!!!!!tch-slapping me for it. that's cool.
the eBay jungle is a treacherous walk sometimes. i've been on both sides and it's not easy just accepting someone's word if you feel you've been wronged.
consider what i've done as an experiment. at times, i kind of felt that way about it, too.
the experiment didn't fail. it wasn't a rousing success, either, because obviously some folks have pretty strong opinions about it.
what it was allowed me gain more knowledge about conducting successful business on the site. i HAVE learned something from this. i expect to be better for it.
I dont see why its so hard to see what the OP is doing and why he does it. I think there are a couple people here who just want to find the loops to give the OP a hard time about his practices. Every case can be made for similar or different reasons. He probably buys hundreds of cards a year in raw form and has gotten some stinkers from bad descriptions. Havent you ever bought from Dean's Cards before? LOL
<< <i>If just a handful of buyers were to follow your protocol, a good seller with a handful of disputed grades would get banned, even if he were 100% willing to refund in every case. >>
i read this statement and dwelled on it for a bit, so let me ask you something now.....
if just a handful of buyers were following my protocol, wouldn't that indicate to you that maybe the so-called "good" seller might be more trouble than it seems on the surface.
nobody should have a handful of complaints, but if they DID, regardless of their willingness to provide refunds and satisfaction to disgruntled buyers, don't you think it would be in the best interests of potential future buyers if there were prior complaints on record?
i don't necessarily believe that the feedback system adequately covers this, but a collection of complaints will, because they don't alert the eBay community itself.
they alert the people who run it.
<< <i>
<< <i>If just a handful of buyers were to follow your protocol, a good seller with a handful of disputed grades would get banned, even if he were 100% willing to refund in every case. >>
i read this statement and dwelled on it for a bit, so let me ask you something now.....
if just a handful of buyers were following my protocol, wouldn't that indicate to you that maybe the so-called "good" seller might be more trouble than it seems on the surface.
nobody should have a handful of complaints, but if they DID, regardless of their willingness to provide refunds and satisfaction to disgruntled buyers, don't you think it would be in the best interests of potential future buyers if there were prior complaints on record?
i don't necessarily believe that the feedback system adequately covers this, but a collection of complaints will, because they don't alert the eBay community itself.
they alert the people who run it. >>
I'd agree on principle with all of that, but doesn't Ebay hammer a seller pretty harshly even for a small handful of cases??
As for the prior complaints warning other buyers, that's EXACTLY what the feedback system is for.
I'm all for alerting Ebay to the bad sellers, but I personally hate to be responsible for subjecting an honest, cooperative seller to ANY extra Ebay scrutiny.
I think we agree far more than we disagree here; it just boils down to formal vs informal channels I think.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq
<< <i>The complaints aren't seen by future buyers. If you feel you were helping the system when registering these complaints then you were doing a disservice to future buyers by not leaving the appropriate feedback that should accompany a valid complaint. It really comes down to how you'd like to be treated as a seller, and you are a higher volume seller. If buyers opened up claims against you with little or no contact then you would probably be upset. >>
never had a claim against me on the seller side. it's a huge source of pride, but i wouldn't wear it as a badge of honor or use it as an excuse.
happy 1000th post.
<< <i>If you were rear ended by a stranger who had no insurance and the stranger PROMISED to pay for the damage, would you take his word for it or would you call the police so you could have a police report if you should have to bring them to court to get your money?
I dont see why its so hard to see what the OP is doing and why he does it. I think there are a couple people here who just want to find the loops to give the OP a hard time about his practices. Every case can be made for similar or different reasons. He probably buys hundreds of cards a year in raw form and has gotten some stinkers from bad descriptions. Havent you ever bought from Dean's Cards before? LOL >>
HORRIBLE analogy. Just HORRIBLE. When you take another driver's word, you have ZERO recourse once they drive off. If you take a seller's word that he'll refund, then you document the return of the item, you retain PLENTY of recourse should it go south.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
Successful deals to date: thedudeabides,gameusedhoop,golfcollector,tigerdean,treetop,bkritz, CapeMOGuy,WeekendHacker,jeff8877,backbidder,Salinas,milbroco,bbuckner22,VitoCo1972,ddfamf,gemint,K,fatty macs,waltersobchak,dboneesq