Valuing "Monster toning"

comma

Id really like to get a "monster" toned morgan. I mean, something crazy, over the top, neon, etc. (that I like).
However, I know nothing about buying something like this.
How much of a premium does something like this carry? Is it something that will retain its value?
Since it isn't something I need, and since I know they are really hot right now, I just want to try and get my head around them.
Sorry if this question is a little vague, but I'd appreciate any input.
Thanks!

lkeigwin

I predict you will buy one to satisfy that craving and, after a while, sell it. So don't spend too much.
Lance.

GoldenEyeNumismatics

An absolute monster obverse toned Morgan Dollar will run you in the $1500-$5000 range, depending on technical grade. Something truly off the charts can be more.

That being said, there are plenty of super-vibrant obverse toned Morgans with many of the same colors that can be had for $400-$1000.

Twinturbo

Check the BST for these two theyre what you seek
Bstclser
coinsarefun

Good luck on your search

stman

Be very careful if you don't know the market on these. What some folks call "Monsters" others may not. Of course when they own them they are all monsters It takes time to learn the values and what will bury you or not. It can be a very thinly traded market and easy to get buried when one is not sure of what the rare colors and patterns are.

coinsarefun

<< <i>Check the BST for these two theyre what you seek
Bstclser
coinsarefun

Good luck on your search >>





Thanks twinturbo



Yes, you can check my bst in my signature line below

Otherwise I am bringing them to Las Vegas show tomarrow

Copperguy

coinsarefun check your PM

Copperguy

Toning is one of those thing that whatever people will pay is what its worth

Elcontador

My 2 cents on this:

1) You need a boilerplate, no questions asked ability to be able to spot such a coin. If you can't spot one, you will overpay for such a coin, and to add insult to injury, it might be a monster.
2) Maybe it's just me, but I never buy a very popular coin. Not only will you pay a toning premium, but you will also pay a bid-up price for such coin. Coins which aren't quite as popular cost less. Even Bust $s aren't as expensive as they were four or five years ago in almost all grades.
3) These toners have a limited, but very devoted following. Some people can and will pay a 20X premium for a nicely toned Morgan. Because of this, you might have problems selling the coin for what you paid for it.
4) Maybe it's just me, but I'm trying to get away from buying coins I don't need, or don't fit my collection.

coinman23885

My advice is to spend several months viewing auctions and market trends. If not, it is quite easy to bury yourself in a coin.

Lehigh96

I wrote a thread about this subject 3 years ago on a different forum. If you read the link, I think you will find it informative even if it was met with much resistance when I posted it.

Rainbow Toning's Effect on Price

In post #23 in that thread, I posted photos of an MS65 1886 Morgan Dollar with dramatic rainbow toning that I purchased from Heritage in 2002 for $719. I also stated that I could probably sell that coin for a small premium. Well, I auctioned that coin last month and it realized $776 nine years later.



Morgan Dollar NGC MS65 2002 June Long Beach Sale $719

Morgan Dollar NGC MS65 2011 November Beverly Hills Sale $776

There are many people out there who can't stand that toning enthusiasts pay huge premiums to obtain coins with exceptional eye appeal. They will declare you a fool for paying such exorbitant premiums and will try to scare you with stories that predict the collapse of the toned coin market. My advice to you is to listen to people who know what they are talking about in relation to this subject. There are many very experienced collectors on this forum with years of experience buying and selling rainbow toned coins. Seek them out, and pick their brains.

I want to be clear that I am not simply advising you to start collecting rainbow toned coins. IMO, rainbow toned coins represent the deep end of the pool and those collectors without the requisite experience to swim in deep waters will drown rather quickly. Although the naysayers are wrong about the impending collapse of the toned coin market, they are correct to warn you about the potential dangers of the market.

If you are looking to buy just one monster toned coin, my recommendation is to buy the highest graded monster toned coin that you can afford. An MS67 or MS66 example might cost more, but they will also have a higher percentage of their value represented by the numismatic value of the grade rather than relying solely on the toning to drive the price. It is important to remember that as the grade and price guide value decrease, the toning premium as a percentage of price guide increases. For example, my MS65 1886 shown above sold for $776 which is 4.2X Numismedia Wholesale. Now consider if that coin had the same toning but was graded an MS64 instead of MS65, it is reasonable to think that it could have reached $400-$500 at auction. The Numismedia Wholesale for an MS65 1885 Morgan Dollar is $85 making the proposed premium range 4.7X to 5.88X wholesale. By doing this, you create a hedge against the toning premium and reduce your overall risk.

291fifth

If you don't know the market then stay away.

AnkurJ

Be prepared to pay up to 10x sheet for a true monster.

I personally refuse to pay that kind of money as the market for these can be very thin and it may be very difficult to get your investment back.

ricko

You will have no competition from me... Cheers, RickO

TomB

Toning on a coin is something that taps into emotion. Therefore, there are no firm guidelines and different folks will pay to their different limits for different coins.

Justacommeman

I cry foul internally on 90% of the posts that state a coin is a "monster. That is where 90% of the people go wrong when buying one for the first time.

I try never to use the term. MJ

Bankerbob56

4) Maybe it's just me, but I'm trying to get away from buying coins I don't need, or don't fit my collection.

Tiny

Now Monster Toners are neat and they can cost the proverbial arm and a leg sad to
say I do not have one BUT I do have maybe 100 Morgans that are colorful and I can
look at THEM for hours and see their beauty rather than look at one beauty. If you
want the real challenge find a Monster Peace Dollar, then you have really done
something by finding a real rarity.

joebb21

Some of the comments already posted are good starting points.

The way I look at a "monster toning" coin is that-

Think about morgan dollars.

ms63's= >$100

ms64's= >$100

ms65 >$200

ms66 > $400

ms67 > $750


Now if I find a monster morgan, I just think- "how many times a generic common date is this worth to me?"

That for the most part is the market for them (and all coins?) What am I willing to spend?

RYK

This is one of the less liquid areas of numismatics. If I were going to purchase a "monster toner", I would buy from someone like Legend, and a coin like one from the Sunnywood Collection, where not only do you have a strong dealer who makes a two-way market on the coin, but you have a coin with an established pedigree, and one that has been stickered, as well.

Or, as Anaconda used to say, put the coin in one hand and the pile of money in the other and ask yourself, "Which would you rather have?"

blu62vette

<< <i>I cry foul internally on 90% of the posts that state a coin is a "monster. That is where 90% of the people go wrong when buying one for the first time.

I try never to use the term. MJ >>



Bingo. There are few monsters compared to those that claim monster. There are those where every coin owned by them by default is a monster. There are also numerous toned collector/dealers that has have great material and then get the occasional monster.

Sonorandesertrat

<< <i>

<< <i>I cry foul internally on 90% of the posts that state a coin is a "monster. That is where 90% of the people go wrong when buying one for the first time.

I try never to use the term. MJ >>



Bingo. There are few monsters compared to those that claim monster. There are those where every coin owned by them by default is a monster. There are also numerous toned collector/dealers that has have great material and then get the occasional monster. >>




I agree. Real monster Morgans get sucked out of the marketplace very quickly, and a 10X toning premium won't touch one of these (if it's a generic MS64-66). The 'mini-me's' are far less likely to garner collector interest. I don't really understand why some posters are fixated on the grade per se---the real value of any monster is in its color. As Sonnier once pointed out, 'no grades, no fights.'

yellowkid

There are lots of beautifully toned coins that, although you will pay a premium, sometimes in multiples of what is accepted for coins in that grade, will leave you with a few bucks for the next purchase

Broadstruck

<< <i>Be very careful if you don't know the market on these. What some folks call "Monsters" others may not. Of course when they own them they are all monsters It takes time to learn the values and what will bury you or not. It can be a very thinly traded market and easy to get buried when one is not sure of what the rare colors and patterns are. >>

TheBigB

<< <i>The way I look at a "monster toning" coin is that-

Think about morgan dollars.

ms63's= >$100

ms64's= >$100

ms65 >$200

ms66 > $400

ms67 > $750


Now if I find a monster morgan, I just think- "how many times a generic common date is this worth to me?"

That for the most part is the market for them (and all coins?) What am I willing to spend? >>

I like this method too, it usually stops me from over-spending versus a nice brilliant example.

RichieURich

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I cry foul internally on 90% of the posts that state a coin is a "monster. That is where 90% of the people go wrong when buying one for the first time.

I try never to use the term. MJ >>



Bingo. There are few monsters compared to those that claim monster. There are those where every coin owned by them by default is a monster. There are also numerous toned collector/dealers that has have great material and then get the occasional monster. >>




I agree. Real monster Morgans get sucked out of the marketplace very quickly, and a 10X toning premium won't touch one of these (if it's a generic MS64-66). The 'mini-me's' are far less likely to garner collector interest. I don't really understand why some posters are fixated on the grade per se---the real value of any monster is in its color. As Sonnier once pointed out, 'no grades, no fights.' >>



Definitely agree with this! Here is a coin that is very nice, but NOT a monster:

DorkGirl

"Monster or Moose" is way over used here. Most of the coins tauted as such are not.

comma

Thanks for all the input guys!
I guess my initial confusion about it all is the fact that they due command such a premium. A lot of people say focus on the little guys that people don't want because they are cheap...but that's just it...people don't want them. Personally, I try to buy coins I want to keep, but I think I'd rather have something that makes people go crazy and say I paid a little extra for rather than something that is pretty good looking, but only paid $100 for and could only get $80 if I resold it.

I guess my next question would be, what defines "Monster". I always assumed it was in the eye of the beholder. Technically anyone could call anything a monster right?
I'd love to hear your definitions!

comma

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I cry foul internally on 90% of the posts that state a coin is a "monster. That is where 90% of the people go wrong when buying one for the first time.

I try never to use the term. MJ >>



Bingo. There are few monsters compared to those that claim monster. There are those where every coin owned by them by default is a monster. There are also numerous toned collector/dealers that has have great material and then get the occasional monster. >>




I agree. Real monster Morgans get sucked out of the marketplace very quickly, and a 10X toning premium won't touch one of these (if it's a generic MS64-66). The 'mini-me's' are far less likely to garner collector interest. I don't really understand why some posters are fixated on the grade per se---the real value of any monster is in its color. As Sonnier once pointed out, 'no grades, no fights.' >>



Definitely agree with this! Here is a coin that is very nice, but NOT a monster:

>>




Could you post this coin next to what you'd consider a monster just for comparison? Thanks!

erickso1

This may be understood and may be said already, but if you are going to go Monster hunting, I would highly recommend it not be online. Pics are to easily manipulated to bring out qualities and vibrancy that may not actually exist.

Just my thoughts.

Good luck!

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I cry foul internally on 90% of the posts that state a coin is a "monster. That is where 90% of the people go wrong when buying one for the first time.

I try never to use the term. MJ >>



Bingo. There are few monsters compared to those that claim monster. There are those where every coin owned by them by default is a monster. There are also numerous toned collector/dealers that has have great material and then get the occasional monster. >>




I agree. Real monster Morgans get sucked out of the marketplace very quickly, and a 10X toning premium won't touch one of these (if it's a generic MS64-66). The 'mini-me's' are far less likely to garner collector interest. I don't really understand why some posters are fixated on the grade per se---the real value of any monster is in its color. As Sonnier once pointed out, 'no grades, no fights.' >>



Definitely agree with this! Here is a coin that is very nice, but NOT a monster:

>>



I would have NO ISSUES with owning that coin, monster or not. Assuming the pic is an accurate representation of the coin.

Sonorandesertrat

Comma,
A group of toned Morgans (some in GSA holders) was sold by Legend Numismatics and others during the last couple of years. Using the Advanced Search function, type in Sonnier. There were some monsters in his collection. Most highly coveted toned Morgans have obverse toning. Hopefully, Aurora Borealis will post some of his coins (or just look at the 1881S PCGS MS65+ CAC coin in the thread he started). The Jhon E. Cash website also has a tutorial on toned Morgans. You need to look at LOTS of toned Morgans to develop an informed opinion regarding what types of coloration (and where the colors are on the coin) contribute to collector lust (and realistic marketplace price).

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>I wrote a thread about this subject 3 years ago on a different forum. If you read the link, I think you will find it informative even if it was met with much resistance when I posted it.

Rainbow Toning's Effect on Price

In post #23 in that thread, I posted photos of an MS65 1886 Morgan Dollar with dramatic rainbow toning that I purchased from Heritage in 2002 for $719. I also stated that I could probably sell that coin for a small premium. Well, I auctioned that coin last month and it realized $776 nine years later.



Morgan Dollar NGC MS65 2002 June Long Beach Sale $719

Morgan Dollar NGC MS65 2011 November Beverly Hills Sale $776

There are many people out there who can't stand that toning enthusiasts pay huge premiums to obtain coins with exceptional eye appeal. They will declare you a fool for paying such exorbitant premiums and will try to scare you with stories that predict the collapse of the toned coin market. My advice to you is to listen to people who know what they are talking about in relation to this subject. There are many very experienced collectors on this forum with years of experience buying and selling rainbow toned coins. Seek them out, and pick their brains.

I want to be clear that I am not simply advising you to start collecting rainbow toned coins. IMO, rainbow toned coins represent the deep end of the pool and those collectors without the requisite experience to swim in deep waters will drown rather quickly. Although the naysayers are wrong about the impending collapse of the toned coin market, they are correct to warn you about the potential dangers of the market.

If you are looking to buy just one monster toned coin, my recommendation is to buy the highest graded monster toned coin that you can afford. An MS67 or MS66 example might cost more, but they will also have a higher percentage of their value represented by the numismatic value of the grade rather than relying solely on the toning to drive the price. It is important to remember that as the grade and price guide value decrease, the toning premium as a percentage of price guide increases. For example, my MS65 1886 shown above sold for $776 which is 4.2X Numismedia Wholesale. Now consider if that coin had the same toning but was graded an MS64 instead of MS65, it is reasonable to think that it could have reached $400-$500 at auction. The Numismedia Wholesale for an MS65 1885 Morgan Dollar is $85 making the proposed premium range 4.7X to 5.88X wholesale. By doing this, you create a hedge against the toning premium and reduce your overall risk. >>



For my tastes that would not be a nearly $800 coin. No dazzle, pizzazz or neon effect to the colors.

Keep in mind that grade adds price, but not necessarily pretty. A 62 with awesome colors isn't any more awesome in 66. The other thing to keep in mind is that you will pay more for a coin toned on the obverse than you will for the exact same toning/corrosion/damage on the reverse even tho it is 50:50 dumb luck which side gets the color. IMO some patterns actually look better on one side than the other. The percent of area toned is also a factor; the greater the better. There really isn't much that is better than a nice bag toned Morgan.

I like this one among my small hoard for its iridescent toning.





Looks great for a 64.



Finally, don't rule out the endrollers.




If ye could find a killer toner in a doily, that would be the best of both worlds.

comma

<< <i>This may be understood and may be said already, but if you are going to go Monster hunting, I would highly recommend it not be online. Pics are to easily manipulated to bring out qualities and vibrancy that may not actually exist.

Just my thoughts.

Good luck! >>



That's a good point. Unfortunately coin shows where I live are few and far between and shops are non-existent...
My options are to drive a long way to a show, or buy coins that have return policies I suppose...

CCC2010

Here is an Example of a Monster Morgan.... AuroraB owns a Lot of them....But here is one example.
Link

RichieURich

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I cry foul internally on 90% of the posts that state a coin is a "monster. That is where 90% of the people go wrong when buying one for the first time.

I try never to use the term. MJ >>



Bingo. There are few monsters compared to those that claim monster. There are those where every coin owned by them by default is a monster. There are also numerous toned collector/dealers that has have great material and then get the occasional monster. >>




I agree. Real monster Morgans get sucked out of the marketplace very quickly, and a 10X toning premium won't touch one of these (if it's a generic MS64-66). The 'mini-me's' are far less likely to garner collector interest. I don't really understand why some posters are fixated on the grade per se---the real value of any monster is in its color. As Sonnier once pointed out, 'no grades, no fights.' >>



Definitely agree with this! Here is a coin that is very nice, but NOT a monster:

>>




Could you post this coin next to what you'd consider a monster just for comparison? Thanks! >>



To find what I would call "monster" toners, check out this thread: Monsters
Oh, and the pic of the 1887 dollar reverse I posted is I believe a Todd (bluccphotos) picture, not juiced.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>This may be understood and may be said already, but if you are going to go Monster hunting, I would highly recommend it not be online. Pics are to easily manipulated to bring out qualities and vibrancy that may not actually exist.

Just my thoughts.

Good luck! >>



That's a good point. Unfortunately coin shows where I live are few and far between and shops are non-existent...
My options are to drive a long way to a show, or buy coins that have return policies I suppose... >>



It's kinda dumb luck that you'd ever find one at a smaller show.

silverman68

<< <i>Be very careful if you don't know the market on these. What some folks call "Monsters" others may not. Of course when they own them they are all monsters It takes time to learn the values and what will bury you or not. It can be a very thinly traded market and easy to get buried when one is not sure of what the rare colors and patterns are. >>



Exactly right. Almost all Morgan's posted here I have seen are not even close to monster. Get ready to pay in the 4 figures or higher for that one of a kind.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>I cry foul internally on 90% of the posts that state a coin is a "monster. That is where 90% of the people go wrong when buying one for the first time.

I try never to use the term. MJ >>



Bingo. There are few monsters compared to those that claim monster. There are those where every coin owned by them by default is a monster. There are also numerous toned collector/dealers that has have great material and then get the occasional monster. >>




I agree. Real monster Morgans get sucked out of the marketplace very quickly, and a 10X toning premium won't touch one of these (if it's a generic MS64-66). The 'mini-me's' are far less likely to garner collector interest. I don't really understand why some posters are fixated on the grade per se---the real value of any monster is in its color. As Sonnier once pointed out, 'no grades, no fights.' >>



Definitely agree with this! Here is a coin that is very nice, but NOT a monster:

>>




Could you post this coin next to what you'd consider a monster just for comparison? Thanks! >>




To find what I would call "monster" toners, check out this thread: Monsters
Oh, and the pic of the 1887 dollar reverse I posted is I believe a Todd (bluccphotos) picture, not juiced. >>



There are toners that are either awesome or average depending on the viewing angle.

silverman68

Buy obverse Monster's not reverse since they are more valuable.

bestclser1

This is a monster.I paid 9K for and wouldnt sell for less than 11K

bestclser1

TONEDDOLLARS

Monster and Peace all rolled into one, also a pretty tough date in high grade.

AuroraBorealis

"comma" here are a few examples of what i would consider "non monster very cool" first coin.... Then a "monster" second coin... Then last but not least "moose" 3rd coin with slab and close up pics...The moose is the coin that Sonorandesertrat was referring to with one of the threads that i had started...I since this pic had it re-submitted and it now resides in a 65+ PCGS secure plus holder... I have higher graded Morgans than these but like the saying goes a picture is worth a thousand words and thought that these 3 examples are very comparable... In the pics they all look comparable but to really see the HUGE differences separating them into the 3 separate categories that i consider you really have to see them in hand side by side...Then game over a no brainier which order they fall into...
There is another way to tell as well... When looking at a"non monster very cool" your face starts to hurt from smiling so much and its hard to put down and you can`t stop looking at it...When looking at a "monster" again your face starts to hurt from smiling and you can`t put it down but now you have to stop looking at it or you would go blind from the intensity and pure delight...When looking at a "moose" there is NO smiling but instead a serious look and flush feeling comes across your face...You start without realizing it holding your breath and wondering why you are feeling ill and your throat and lips go dry...Then you start to wonder why your feet are getting cold and realize when you look down that your shoes and socks have completely blown off... And lastly the tell tale sign that you have witnesses a true Moose you have a hard time sleeping/ tossing and turning and then when you finally do fall asleep you keep seeing that coin...

Hope you enjoy my examples and happy collecting... AB

Non monster very cool

Monster

Moose

magikbilly

they are all so different and each sale and market so different...reminds me a little of the Daffy Duck routine "I can only do this once...!"


Eric

AuroraBorealis

"comma'' here is a great read for you if you haven`t already seen it... Valuable info put together by Brandon Kelley with additional info written by Doug Kurz (Sunnywood) ... A must read for a toned Morgan enthusiast...

Link

AB

comma

<< <i>"comma'' here is a great read for you if you haven`t already seen it... Valuable info put together by Brandon Kelley with additional info written by Doug Kurz (Sunnywood) ... A must read for a toned Morgan enthusiast...

Link

AB >>



Thank you SO much! I loved your detail description and pictures...and a very useful link as well!
I hope that someday I hold a coin that falls into the "moose" category (and buy it!)
Unfortunately I don't have a lot of opportunity to see coins in hand...so this is a really hard place to fall into (wanting to find one of these coins, but being restricted mostly to the internet)
I will keep my eyes open and keep reading and getting valuable information from the members here!!

Lehigh96

<< <i>
Moose
>>



Other than Sunnywood's MS68 1881-S, that might be the coolest 1881-S on the planet. BRAVO!

Now where the hell are my socks?

littlebear

Some incredible coins here, gang! Awesome!!!


Larry L.

rainbowroosie

Buy something awesome, not just very nice....one super coin tops ten nice ones.

Sonorandesertrat

<< <i>Buy something awesome, not just very nice....one super coin tops ten nice ones. >>




Quality trumps quantity.