Controversial Colorful 1799 Draped Bust Dollar

WingedLiberty1957

Being a lover of colorfully toned coins, and also having had a Draped Bust Silver Dollar on my want list for over 2 years. I wanted to evaluate this striking coin in hand, (it has a 7 day return policy).

This coin generated a lot of controversy a few days ago after someone posted the sellers photos. In any case I now have this coin in hand and have taken new photos with my trusty iPhone. I can promise you I made NO ADJUSTMENTS at all to the raw photos so what you see is what you get. I am curious what the consensus is now with these new photos.

First off, I have to say that in-hand this coin reminds me a bit of this fantastic old "Guttag Family" 1826 Capped Bust Half, which is sort of dark and crusty straight on, but lights up like a Christmas Tree with the most beautiful color when tipped towards a light source. This 1826 half dollar has a similar toning/wear pattern to the 1799 silver dollar with the dark toning over most of the coin, but with the old toning worn off from high points of the coin (note the white/silvery highlights on the face, hair, and stars on both coins) ... almost giving a bit of a poor-mans cameo look ... kind of interesting.





So anyway, without further a-do ...

Here are some photos of the obverse of the 1799 Draped Bust Half ...












Text

WingedLiberty1957

Here are some photos of the reverse ... from a more straight on perspective ...




Now with a bit more sunlight in play ...




Next are some photos with the reverse tipped into indirect sunlight (cloudy/rainy day) next to a south facing window ...
where the light produces glare on the coin and slab ... lighting up the colors ...






Thoughts / Opinions ?

hchcoin

Looks great to me.

MercLovin

Don't dig the contrast of the white areas and black areas. Isn't pleasing to my eye. The colors seem nice, however.

Baley

sidestepping the color for a bit, The coin has the look of the coveted "circ cam" which was so often created when a coin was stored for a long period, getting very dark, and then circulated for a while (or was handled as if it were circulating, being jingled with other coins, and especially sliding on surfaces) wearing off the toning on the high points, before finally being saved and preserved by collectors.

the color looks ok to me, unusual for sure, but given the overall look, the market will, imo, value it at a premium for the grade, although such a coin will always, from some, receive the knee-jerk "cleaned and retoned", and of course, it's not impossible that's the case

lordmarcovan

CircCam with colors. Hmm. I like it.

RYK

I am still not loving the look of it, but it does look better than I remember from the original ebay photos.

coinsarefun

I think its beautiful!!!!

WingedLiberty1957

It really is striking though ...

Just snapped this grouping leaning up against my computer monitor (sorry about the glare, but i needed some glare to pop the colors)

robec

I love it!!

I can't wait to see what Phil does with it. Great pickup.

pursuitofliberty

I think it is natrual, although due to dipping we rarely see coins like this

I like it, somewhat, and while not really a coin for me ... I CERTAINLY appreciate it for what it is




I do respectfully disagree with Baley's description of how it got this way ...

I have looked at coins like this and other natural "circ-cams", especially those with some tell-tale or better luster, in that the coin was worn first and then stored. The wear and susequent oils, dirt and "grime" from that wear caused a protective film, not allowing the coin to tone at all (or the same) where ever that wear was present. However because the fields and low point devices were not affected by this, and were not otherwise molested, they toned naturally and normally, as silver would over 100+ years.


Just my 2c

WingedLiberty1957

Very interesting posts so far. Thanks for all the feedback.

I especially liked hearing details on the circ-cam effect ... that's really interesting.
I always learn something on this board!

GoldClause

That dollar was completely toned, spent years in a soft 2X2, developed surface PVC where the 2X2 was in contact with the high points, and when the PVC was removed, it removed the toning on those portions of the coin as well.

From my earlier days of collecting 30 years ago, I've seen many coins like this (not bust dollars necessarily), in dealer boxes. Surface PVC is easily removed, but it always removes any toning or natural skin on the coin as well.

WingedLiberty1957

Thanks GoldClause, that sounds plausible.

Baley

Actually, that explanation sounds plausible, too. Perhaps there is more than one way a coin can get the circ-cam look?

AnkurJ

It has a nice look, but a little too dark for my tastes. Thanks for sharing the images!

PerryHall

<< <i>Don't dig the contrast of the white areas and black areas. Isn't pleasing to my eye. The colors seem nice, however. >>



Ditto. Looks strange and unnatural. Would sliding that coin into and out of a paper coin envelope cause the toning to rub off the high points of that coin?

homerunhall

As always, a little hard to tell from scan. But if you want to send it in to my attention I'll take a look and let you know what I think. A little acetone may do wonders and probably wouldn't hurt the coin. And if it did we would of course pay you.

hrh

golden

A coin that would have to be seen in person for it to be appreciated.

GoldClause

Looking at the coin a little further, I'd say it was cleaned, then retoned, probably with a sulfer compound, which would give it much darker toning, then stored in a PVC 2X2 for several years as I mentioned above.

My reasoning is because you can see finger prints in the toning on the reverse. An XF 40 coin wouldn't tone with fingerprints naturally since the circulation of the coin would have caused it to develop a thin patina (skin).

The only way finger prints would appear in the toning is if the coin was touched when the surface of the coin was bare, as it would be on a white uncirculated coin, or a cleaned coin. You see many uncirculated coins with toning finger prints.

So, this coin, since it's a circulated coin, would have had to have been cleaned to expose the bare surface, then touched during the retoning process, allowing toning finger prints to develop.


On another note, you can see toning spots on the untoned high points of the coin. I think that happened from being stored in a paper 2X2 after the PVC was removed. Contact with a paper (which contains sulfer) 2X2 would cause the high points to start to retone.

WingedLiberty1957

<< <i>As always, a little hard to tell from scan. But if you want to send it in to my attention I'll take a look and let you know what I think. A little acetone may do wonders and probably wouldn't hurt the coin. And if it did we would of course pay you.

hrh >>




Hello HomeRunHall,

Wow, talk about going right to the top. Sure that sounds great.

Just give me a few days with the coin as I am still in the 7 day return period - I just got the coin today.

I always like to get whatever feedback I can while in this grace period before making a final decision.

So if end up keeping this, which I am leaning towards doing right now ... if I could mail to to you next week sometime that would be great

Can you PM or reply to me what I need to put on the package to get it to you.

I am also interested in getting Phil Arnold (who I think is one of PCGS's greatest resources) to take one of his patented TrueView Photos of this ... but after you do whatever sort of treament (acetone) you think this coins needs. So should i submit it with a regular PCGS submission form but put it with attention to you?

Thank you so much for your time and interest!

airplanenut

My thoughts on the coin:

1- Doesn't look like the original photos, and that's a good thing. Those pictures way, WAY overdid the color
2- I like old coins that are dark, but I'm personally not usually a fan of such coins with color, preferring dark grey
3- I'm not exactly sure what put that color on. The coin might not be for me, but I'm not going to say it's problematic.



<< <i>Hello HomeRunHall ... are you PCGS founder and Collectors Universe CEO David Hall ? >>

That's him.

CaptHenway

I am more inclined to think that the coin was large paper envelope, like you would mail a letter in, and moved around a lot so that the coin rolled back and forth and rubbed against the paper on the high spots.

Look at that hair fold on the forehead/temple area. It is depressed enough that it was sheltered from the peper abrasion, but shallow enough that if that area had become covered with PVC that shallow depression would have filled in with PVC also.

While this was happening, the proximity of the paper caused the deep original toning on the rest of the coin.

Bottom line: original, and certifiable as such. Wear does not disqualify a coin from certification. The toning is not particularly atrtractive, but it is original.

MOO.
TD

Julian

Great old coin. Fully natural and original, IMHO.

WingedLiberty1957

thanks Julian, your credentials are impressive ... so that's a heavy-weight endorsement.

Ahrensdad

I see no reason to return the coin. I really like the look, and great details.

kaz

definitely looks better than the seller photos. Just my taste, but I don't care for the sharp contrast between the light high areas and the darkness everywhere else. Some interesting observations about the origins of this "look." Good thread!

WingedLiberty1957

Hey ... Just wanted to let you all know I decided to return this

I think all the negative posts just built up over time

More seemed to not like it than like it

Some thought it was natural but unattractive

Some did like it, but ultimately there were just too many mixed opinions given the price.

In any case, thanks so much for all the opinions and feedback. I learned a lot and found it all very helpful and enlightening.

It certainly is an interesting and unusual coin and I am sure this will find a good home.

GoldClause

On a different note, love your avatar. Is that a WWI victory medal?

WingedLiberty1957

Thanks GoldClause. Actually that's a good question. I dont know what it is. Maybe someone here knows.

I couldnt figure out how to upload my own personal avatar to this board. So I just picked that from the list of prepackaged avatar images available.

The image on the coin/medal looked like it had wings which sort of matched my UserName of WingedLiberty, which is why I picked it.

If someone does know how to upload your own personal avatar, let me know. I have an avatar image already, but have no idea how to get in into the CU system/interface.

GoldClause

I used to collect art nouveau medals a while back. Generally, that is the period from 1890 to 1920, and mostly they were done by French medallists. Your avatar looks familiar, which makes me think it's a WWI victory medal. It's done in the art nouveau style, and is definitely a "victory" medal of some sort, since it portrays Nike, the Greek goddess of victory.

lkeigwin

Sorry it didn't work out for you, WingedLiberty.

I like it. It seems like friction from rub has affected its appearance but it looks very genuine.

So...where do I go to buy it now that it is available again?
Lance.

WingedLiberty1957

Wow ... art nouveau medals ... I bet that was a gorgeous collection!

Cool info on Nike ... I had no idea.

I tried a google search on those terms hoping to find an image of that medal and came up empty.

WingedLiberty1957

Hey Lance,

Here is the old listing ... it should pop back up as a buy in now next week I am guessing

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1799-1-DRAPED-BUST-DOLLAR-PCGS-XF-40-PHENOMENAL-RAINBOW-COLOR-TONED-RARE-/170732521936?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item27c07389d

RYK

<< <i>Hey ... Just wanted to let you all know I decided to return this

I think all the negative posts just built up over time

More seemed to not like it than like it

Some thought it was natural but unattractive

Some did like it, but ultimately there were just too many mixed opinions given the price.

In any case, thanks so much for all the opinions and feedback. I learned a lot and found it all very helpful and enlightening.

It certainly is an interesting and unusual coin and I am sure this will find a good home. >>



If you post nearly any coin here (or ask coin friends at a show in person), you will almost always get a similar distribution of responses. It is really up to you to develop a taste for what you like.

Baley

CoinJunkie

Aesthetics are personal and subjective, of course, but I'm not a huge fan of that look. I keep
thinking Liberty is in the middle of getting a facial. OTOH, I've seen early dollars I like a lot less...

deltadimeman

pm sent

scoobydeux

<< <i>

<< <i>Hey ... Just wanted to let you all know I decided to return this

I think all the negative posts just built up over time

More seemed to not like it than like it

Some thought it was natural but unattractive

Some did like it, but ultimately there were just too many mixed opinions given the price.

In any case, thanks so much for all the opinions and feedback. I learned a lot and found it all very helpful and enlightening.

It certainly is an interesting and unusual coin and I am sure this will find a good home. >>




If you post nearly any coin here (or ask coin friends at a show in person), you will almost always get a similar distribution of responses. It is really up to you to develop a taste for what you like. >>



Well said!!

BillJones

It's not the kind look that I like. I've had both early copper and silver coins that have looked like this (dark fields, brighter devices) over my time as a collector, and I never ended up keeping them.

Here is the 1799 dollar from my collection that has dark toning. My guess is this once had a soap and water treatment and then toned to where it is today. The coin is very stable. It looked like this when I bought it almost 30 years ago. This more even toning is more in line with my tastes. The coin was once a "Bill Jones" and (old) ANACS EF-45. It is now an NGC AU-55.

WingedLiberty1957

BillJones, I like it!
Thats Beautiful

BillJones

<< <i>BillJones, I like it!
Thats Beautiful >>



Yes, I "lusted" over than one for about five years after an older collector showed it to me. He finally sold it to me when he wanted to raise some cash to take he and his wife on a second honeymoon trip.

coinman23885

I like the color (especially the reverse).

coinman23885

<< <i>Hey ... Just wanted to let you all know I decided to return this >>



I think you made a wise decision. I think the coin is original, but I don't think that it is worth the few hundred dollar premium over price guide value that you paid for it!

notwilight

<< <i>That dollar was completely toned, spent years in a soft 2X2, developed surface PVC where the 2X2 was in contact with the high points, and when the PVC was removed, it removed the toning on those portions of the coin as well.

From my earlier days of collecting 30 years ago, I've seen many coins like this (not bust dollars necessarily), in dealer boxes. Surface PVC is easily removed, but it always removes any toning or natural skin on the coin as well. >>



I'm buying this explanation because of the blotchy and jagged nature of the circ-cam. Circulation would result in more even boundaries with a fade area rather then the jagged and uneven appearance we have here. --Jerry

WingedLiberty1957

Interesting that this same 1799 DBD that I bought for $5400 a few years back just sold at Goldberg Auctions yesterday for $3878 (about $1500 less than my original purchase price). I guess it turned out good that I returned it and got my $5400 back after all the neg comments.

3 June 2014 Goldberg Auction

BryceM

Thanks for the follow-up. I've seen a few of my former coins pop up at auctions and it's always interesting to see what happens.

As far as this particular coin is concerned, I understand that you're happy you didn't get stuck with a monetary loss, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a perfectly nice coin that should be appreciated for what it is. I like the coin quite a bit, but if I bought it, it would be with the understanding that its look might not appeal to everyone. That's important to keep in mind, depending on how long coins tends to stay in one's keeping. Would you have been comfortable with the exact same coin at a lower price? It almost sounds like it was the feedback you received about the coin, and not necessarily the price that caused you to return it the first time around.

SeattleSlammer

<< <i>Interesting that this same 1799 DBD that I bought for $5400 a few years back just sold at Goldberg Auctions yesterday for $3878 (about $1500 less than my original purchase price). I guess it turned out good that I returned it and got my $5400 back after all the neg comments.

3 June 2014 Goldberg Auction >>






$5400 definitely was a strong+ price.
It's always fun and interesting to see coins you've owned and moved along pop up down the road....

TwoKopeiki

Naturally toned, crusty and beautiful. Great looking coin!

kaz

Interesting to see the followup. Excellent photos by the Goldberg team.