Question about "chop marks"

comma

I am just curious if there is any real history behind chop marks on trade dollars (real trade dollars that is). Are there any chop marks/brands that are more "valuable" or historical than others? It seems like an interesting thing but I am having trouble finding any info on it at all. Thanks!

AUandAG

Chop marks, while very interesting, do not add value to a TD. Most TDs were sent to the Orient for use
in trade. It was designed to compete with the Reale of Central and S. America.
There is a difference in some chop marked dollars due to the location in the Orient in which they were used.
Not all chops are of the same size. Japanese, Philippines and others used a small chop mark. However, most
that we see are of the large chop mark type.
There are articles on the meanings of the chops. My understanding is that they are merchant made as a
testament to the content of the silver in the coin.

bob

comma

Thanks for the information!
I think it adds an x-factor to them

BillJones

<< <i>My understanding is that they are merchant made as a >>



Private certification … that was the good, legitimate side to chop marks. The negative side was that some merchants filched a little silver from the coin when they chopped it, therefore debasing the piece. It was for this reason that pieces with too many chop marks were subject to governmental rejection.

steveben

i would also add that i found out (the hard way) that some chop marks hurt the value and others improve the value...depending on the date and rarity. in other words, some dates, like my 1875-s, are commonly chopped...while others are rare to see chopped. the rarity helps, the commonality hurts.

personally, i like the chopped trades, because i think it makes the coin more interesting...but do your research thoroughly before you buy as to whether or not the chop mark is helping your coin or hurting it. pcgs kinda buries the chop mark variety in coinfacts.

fastrudy

There is a reference books called "Chopmarks" by F. M. Rose published in 1987.

BillJones

I'm probably wrong, but my perception is if you want a really good, high quality Trade Dollar, avoid the ones with chop marks, even if it is only one in a "hidden," out of the way place. If you want a chop marked piece for its historic value, go ahead and buy one, but don’t pay a big premium for it, and certainly don’t pay any more than MS-63 money even if it’s a really super piece.

comma

Thanks for the input guys!

PerryHall

<< <i>I'm probably wrong, but my perception is if you want a really good, high quality Trade Dollar, avoid the ones with chop marks, even if it is only one in a "hidden," out of the way place. If you want a chop marked piece for its historic value, go ahead and buy one, but don’t pay a big premium for it, and certainly don’t pay any more than MS-63 money even if it’s a really super piece. >>



Agree. If you want one that has chop marks for historical purposes, get one with numerous chops housed in a PCGS slab. I'm not sure if the Chinese are counterfeiting TD's with chop marks but I wouldn't put it past them.

steveben

crypto79 wrote in another thread:

"As for Chop marks on the common type coins or the ones that or more common with chops than without(77cc) it takes away from the value starting about 25% for choice & limited number of chops
74cc,74s,75cc,75s,76s,77cc,77s

For the coins that are simi keys in their own right or scarce with chops the value starts even for chop vs unchopped and gets lower as the number of chops/abuse goes up or eye appeal goes down.
73cc,73s,74p,75s/cc,76p,76cc,77p,78s

For the coins that are rare chopped the price starts much much higher and gets to about even if they are too ugly
73p,75p,78cc

The 3 most common by far are the 75s,76s,77s and they coins should be avoided as they will see the wildest spreads between buy/sell"

AUandAG

Agree. If you want one that has chop marks for historical purposes, get one with numerous chops housed in a PCGS slab. I'm not sure if the Chinese are counterfeiting TD's with chop marks but I wouldn't put it past them. >>




Absolutely they are counterfeiting them with chops. See example below.

crypto79

The Rose book is very good and can be found on ebay from time to time. There are many types but they normally represent a port, bank, merchant or Tax officer. They where a way to ensure that everybody got their cut and they are all damaging, some were done with ink. The fake ones are easy to spot if you know what the real ones look like. If you come to the Baltimore LSCC exhibit I will show you all you would like to see.

PerryHall

<< <i>Agree. If you want one that has chop marks for historical purposes, get one with numerous chops housed in a PCGS slab. I'm not sure if the Chinese are counterfeiting TD's with chop marks but I wouldn't put it past them. >>




Absolutely they are counterfeiting them with chops. See example below.

>>



Interesting! Are those real chops on a fake coin or fake chops on a real coin or is everything totally fake . I assume chop mark punches can be easily created and used on real coins.

ricko

I have one, PCGS slabbed, Chopped TD.... I find them interesting and wanted an example. I also have Rose's book. Cheers, RickO

AUandAG

<< <i>

<< <i>Agree. If you want one that has chop marks for historical purposes, get one with numerous chops housed in a PCGS slab. I'm not sure if the Chinese are counterfeiting TD's with chop marks but I wouldn't put it past them. >>




Absolutely they are counterfeiting them with chops. See example below.

>>



Interesting! Are those real chops on a fake coin or fake chops on a real coin or is everything totally fake . I assume chop mark punches can be easily created and used on real coins. >>



I can tell you the coin is fake, I'll assume the chops are as well. Perhaps the chops are from antique markers, but I don't know.
bob

comma

Thanks again everybody! Interesting stuff.
I definitely want to find a pcgs one with the most chops as possible. Most of my collecting is history based, so that would be a cool type coin to have!

MsMorrisine

can't say I know everything about chops, but a couple of those on the fake TD seem sketchy to me.
1. the triangle (no chinese character is a triangle)
2. the "M" or Greek Sigma looking one. (nothing like that in Chinese either)(

but ... who knows.... maybe some merchants chose some simpler chops and they are fake chops from ones that were really used.



still.... weird to see a triangle symbol used....


I like chopped TDs

If they add character and don't destroy the details, I think they are a nice bonus.

rawmorgan

While it's not a trade dollar, this has been in my wallet for about 5 years. I'd like to think the CMs are genuine because it give an extra sense of history for the coin. That it has been places.





Thanks for the thread

As always any questions or comments are welcome.

comma

rawmorgan, I love that! great piece