<< <i>Ok. I have been out of loop, so what exactly happened? If someone wouldn't mind explaining it would be great?
I am inferring that Elsipep has been found to be a fraud? Though I am not sure. He is still on ebay with packs for sale. If that is the case, below are my thoughts.
1.) What a shame. That guy literally made hundreds of thousands of dollars selling fake packs 2.) There are people who can make rack and cellos packs as well as the originally factory. No grading company can differentiate. You and I are every bit as effective in determining whether a rack or cello pack is real or not. If you think it is fake, it probably is fake, if you think it is real, there is a still a half way decent chance it is fake. Best judgment is common sense, but I have veered away from collecting these recently because of the incredible deluge of 1975 rack packs and 1983 topps rack packs with incredible combinations of cards on top (the same seller bruin... on ebay has put for auction 4 1983 topps racks with Gwynn/Boggs top and three others with Sandberg/Gwynn on top with the disclaimer "these were my dad's and I don't know much about them) . My collection is open for public viewing at http://thehistorykids.net/packs --- Never had anyone of them graded. Probably some are fake. I thought they were all real when I bought them (and hope they all are), but it is clear now that some people can reproduce them perfectly. I have bought every one of them over the past seven or eight years on ebay. 3.) I stay away from folks like Elsipep, Bruin.... etc. who have seemingly endless supplies of rare cellos and racks with stars on top. ebay feedback IS NOT a reliable indicator whatsoever. The truth is these are very rare items. Also don't buy graded items and these present a false sense of authenticity. >>
You don't need to be filled in at all. You just nailed exactly what happened.
With the money he made selling them. He will be doing it again.
** Working on the following sets-2013 Spectra Football Hall of Fame 50th Anniversary Autograph set, 2015 Spectra Football Illustrious Legends Autograph set, 2014-15 Hall of Fame Heroes autograph set. **
This is an aspect of the issue that often gets lost. but I do think Hart and PSA should have issued a statement on the whole affair/fiasco, explaining how they can now with confidence avoid the mistakes made on those packs-- assuming they have studied the problem technically and solved it. A statement would help resuscitate and bolster confidence, and that's a purely positive thing for this sector of the hobby.
<< <i>2.) There are people who can make rack and cellos packs as well as the originally factory. No grading company can differentiate. You and I are every bit as effective in determining whether a rack or cello pack is real or not. >>
Like it or not, this thread will likely go "poof" on Monday. I definitely thought about hamilton989 (Greg) and this thread when everything went down in January. BTW - things are getting pretty interesting over at the other playground.
<< <i>MArk--I was not calling out a few guys. I am just stating a fact. Had I bought from "that guy" and posted positive comments, I would be embarrassed. I consider myself knowledgable on unopened and don't like to be fooled--nor does anyone else. Fact is "that guy" got over on many people, many of whom are knowledgeable in vintage unopened, and most I would assume are a bit red-faced. I am not mocking them, just stating a human emotion.
And yes we all have some in our collection that raise some eyebrows >>
Jose fooled many of us, including Steve. It is unfortunate, but it happened. Even the most knowledgable collectors are taken from time to time and hindsight is always 20/20. I recall a while back when Summer and I pointed out a number of bad 73 cellos with stars on top that were circulating that had the wrong product code on back (packs fabricated with wrappers that were used in 1975-1977, not 1973), that you were unaware of this, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I still remember that thread about the 73s and the Schmidt pack-- that detective work with Summerof68 was among the best the board has seen. And enlightening and educational, too.
<< <i>This is an aspect of the issue that often gets lost. but I do think Hart and PSA should have issued a statement on the whole affair/fiasco, explaining how they can now with confidence avoid the mistakes made on those packs-- assuming they have studied the problem technically and solved it. A statement would help resuscitate and bolster confidence, and that's a purely positive thing for this sector of the hobby. >>
Well said, Matt. It would be nice to hear something rather than have it brushed under the rug.
And just as you state, "assuming they have studied the problem technically and solved it..." this leads me to wonder if they can truthfully state that they can "now with confidence avoid the same mistakes". I would hope so. Too much money gets tossed around in this hobby for PSA to not get it right. I trust that they do get things right most of the time.
I agree with everyone that this Jose character seems like a special kind of sociopath. What he did was (is?) nothing short of fraud. However, there are some people that -- when they found out they had bad packs -- immediately dumped them on unsuspecting people that didn't have their inside information of the FBI investigation, using both ebay and AHs. That, too, is pretty low.
<< <i>I agree with everyone that this Jose character seems like a special kind of sociopath. What he did was (is?) nothing short of fraud. However, there are some people that -- when they found out they had bad packs -- immediately dumped them on unsuspecting people that didn't have their inside information of the FBI investigation, using both ebay and AHs. That, too, is pretty low. >>
The problem is no one has ever found out they have or had bad packs. No one knows what packs are bad and not. It's all just fear and rumour based on the one fact that bad packs from that one source got past PSA. That's a big problem. Jose maintains he's never sold a fake pack, and all the fake packs were kept to prove the incompetence of PSA Hart. But of course it's tough to know if that's true. Complicating matters and making the situation fuzzier is that there has never been a formal statement on any FBI investigation either. So it's impossible to know what is good and bad out there. In the absence of PSA saying officially that, "These specific packs are bad," all anyone can do is assume PSA stands by any given pack. So no one actually ever found out, and still hasn't found out to this day, that they have any bad packs. All we know for certain is that bad packs were made and got past the PSA goalie. Beyond that, it's still unfortunately murky. It's really on PSA to bring the whole situation into the light and assure the hobby they can now detect such packs. Then institute a simple free review process for any pack, and things can return to normal. Otherwise we're all still operating in the dark as we are now, wondering what's good, what's bad, etc.
The guy we are referring to once posted on here a pic showing a bunch of 1975 racks. And half of them had the stars in the wrong cells. I recall someone called him out on it, too. But I can't find the thread or pic. If someone can find this pic, it will be enjoyable as well.
<< <i>The guy we are referring to once posted on here a pic showing a bunch of 1975 racks. And half of them had the stars in the wrong cells. I recall someone called him out on it, too. But I can't find the thread or pic. If someone can find this pic, it will be enjoyable as well. >>
I think it might have been on Muggy's "Stars on Top" thread that that got poofed, but I was the one that called him out on it. That is when I started thinking something might be up with Jose, but at the time he could have claimed he got them from someone else so I treaded lightly when I questioned him on it. Like Tim said, hindsight is 20/20 unfortunately.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>The problem is no one has ever found out they have or had bad packs. No one knows what packs are bad and not. It's all just fear and rumour based on the one fact that bad packs from that one source got past PSA. That's a big problem. Jose maintains he's never sold a fake pack, and all the fake packs were kept to prove the incompetence of PSA Hart. But of course it's tough to know if that's true. Complicating matters and making the situation fuzzier is that there has never been a formal statement on any FBI investigation either. So it's impossible to know what is good and bad out there. In the absence of PSA saying officially that, "These specific packs are bad," all anyone can do is assume PSA stands by any given pack. So no one actually ever found out, and still hasn't found out to this day, that they have any bad packs. All we know for certain is that bad packs were made and got past the PSA goalie. Beyond that, it's still unfortunately murky. It's really on PSA to bring the whole situation into the light and assure the hobby they can now detect such packs. Then institute a simple free review process for any pack, and things can return to normal. Otherwise we're all still operating in the dark as we are now, wondering what's good, what's bad, etc. >>
Bingo Matt.
Hypothetical question for everyone: If after further review, PSA were to make a statement saying the 17 '78 Murray OT cello packs are bad, that the 13 '79 Ozzie OT packs are bad, etc, etc - then what? What would the hobby (especially the owners of the packs) expect to happen next?
<< <i>Hypothetical question for everyone: If after further review, PSA were to make a statement saying the 17 '78 Murray OT cello packs are bad, that the 13 '79 Ozzie OT packs are bad, etc, etc - then what? What would the hobby (especially the owners of the packs) expect to happen next? >>
Issue a recall on ALL of his packs. Compensate the people that send them in. Open all of the packs and forensically study them and learn something and move forward.
I just got myself caught up to speed on this issue in the net54 forum. What a circus with StarPaxMan as the ringleader. One question, perhaps naive. StarPaxMan indicated the FBI investigation is over. I guess he can continue to sell via ebay until the FBI decides something? Should it be surprising that eBay has not taken action? ebay suspends people for hundreds of ridiculous reasons, I am surprised an FBI fraud investigation doesn't qualify as a "suspendable action." He still has graded packs for sale.
I know a lot of people are sticking up for Steve Hart and PSA on this forum. I am sure he is honest guy and certainly has taken the high road on all of this. That being said, would you ever submit packs for grading again? Would you pay an premium whatsoever for a pack graded by PSA? This is why people pay hundreds of dollars of more for a "graded" pack than an ungraded pack --- for Steve and PSA's expert opinion.
This guy got busted, and knowing he was about to go down, he concocted this story that this was his plan all along and that it was a cause worth going to jail for.
This guy is an incredible storyteller. I saw in the other forum how he had actually managed to convince some (at least a couple) people that his intentions were good. Some were nearly singing his praises. Unreal. See my original post about how one of his son's friends must of stolen the pack that was supposed to be shipped to me.
<< <i> Too much money gets tossed around in this hobby for PSA to not get it right. . >>
PSA is just an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. >>
I agree, yes, they render an opinion on the grade, but they offer more than that when you have a card or pack authenticated.
When it comes to authentication and the detection of alterations, etc., we, as collectors, put some trust in them to catch these things. This is a service PSA offers along with the grade, correct? Some alterations or issues with authenticity can be factual, not based on opinion, and on these matters I would hope that PSA would get it right (eg. pack sequencing, how packs were sealed from the factory, date codes on the actual wrappers, etc.).
[for the record, and considering PSA's volume, they probably get it right 98.5% of the time.]
<< <i>The problem is no one has ever found out they have or had bad packs. No one knows what packs are bad and not. It's all just fear and rumour based on the one fact that bad packs from that one source got past PSA. That's a big problem. Jose maintains he's never sold a fake pack, and all the fake packs were kept to prove the incompetence of PSA Hart. But of course it's tough to know if that's true. Complicating matters and making the situation fuzzier is that there has never been a formal statement on any FBI investigation either. So it's impossible to know what is good and bad out there. In the absence of PSA saying officially that, "These specific packs are bad," all anyone can do is assume PSA stands by any given pack. So no one actually ever found out, and still hasn't found out to this day, that they have any bad packs. All we know for certain is that bad packs were made and got past the PSA goalie. Beyond that, it's still unfortunately murky. It's really on PSA to bring the whole situation into the light and assure the hobby they can now detect such packs. Then institute a simple free review process for any pack, and things can return to normal. Otherwise we're all still operating in the dark as we are now, wondering what's good, what's bad, etc. >>
Bingo Matt.
Hypothetical question for everyone: If after further review, PSA were to make a statement saying the 17 '78 Murray OT cello packs are bad, that the 13 '79 Ozzie OT packs are bad, etc, etc - then what? What would the hobby (especially the owners of the packs) expect to happen next? >>
I'm going to respectfully disagree. Of course, it's basically an ethics question so if we ask 10 people we'll likely get 10 different answers, all falling somewhere on the spectrum. The question is one that everyone would have to answer for themselves but me, personally, would not want anything to do with someone that bolted to sell the questionable packs and then washed their hands of the situation by saying "maybe he sold some good ones, who knows? No way to tell. Oh well."
We know that a list exists, although it doesn't appear to be public domain. I would think an owner of a questionable pack could just contact PSA and say "I've got a pack that I bought from Jose. Can I send it back in for you to look at again and how would you handle the situation if it turned out to be bad?" I don't know what PSA would say and I'll certainly not pretend to speak for them, but I would imagine you would get a response from them one way or another.
But that's just my own POV. Obviously, different people are going to handle the situation differently. But I'll stand by my earlier comment that passing off Jose packs to unsuspecting buyers because one found out that he was the subject of a yet publicly known FBI investigation is low.
Jose was caught RED HANDED selling doctored packs. There was no doubt about it. The is photographic and ebay auction record EVIDENCE to back that up.
Then there was Muggy, who was one of a small group of people that discovered Jose's FRAUD and then made himself a part of it by immediately dumping all of his holdings last June before it came out.
The simple solution is to publish ALL flip numbers for any pack Jose submitted. Just assume them all to be bad (even if they are not). Publicize the existence of this list so that it becomes commonly known by all pack collectors. That should more or less kill 85%-90% of any resale of the packs in question.
And finally, my understanding is that we will not see anything said by Steve or PSA until they receive approval to make a public statement about it. They are victims of Jose's fraud too. So it's best to let it sit until they are freed to discuss it.
<< <i>Jose was caught RED HANDED selling doctored packs. There was no doubt about it. The is photographic and ebay auction record EVIDENCE to back that up.
Then there was Muggy, who was one of a small group of people that discovered Jose's FRAUD and then made himself a part of it by immediately dumping all of his holdings last June before it came out.
The simple solution is to publish ALL flip numbers for any pack Jose submitted. Just assume them all to be bad (even if they are not). Publicize the existence of this list so that it becomes commonly known by all pack collectors. That should more or less kill 85%-90% of any resale of the packs in question.
And finally, my understanding is that we will not see anything said by Steve or PSA until they receive approval to make a public statement about it. They are victims of Jose's fraud too. So it's best to let it sit until they are freed to discuss it. >>
I'm not going to hold my breath on this idea, but I like it anyway.
<< <i>If anyone here owns one just contact Joe and send it back for a free review >>
What do they know now that they didn't know then that will enable them to catch them on review? Also, how do people know they own one? There are hundreds of packs out there that went from person to person to person like a bad virus.
Edit: Also, once reviewed are they issuing new cert numbers so the packs are not associated with the rest of the Jose packs?
I am obviously speaking about people who bought direct from him. Many people here did and can get free reviews. As for what they know now that they didn't before? I have no idea but all I am saying is you can get a free review on his packs.
<< <i>I am obviously speaking about people who bought direct from him. Many people here did and can get free reviews. As for what they know now that they didn't before? I have no idea but all I am saying is you can get a free review on his packs. >>
Is that what they did with your Brett pack? If so, did they issue you a new cert number?
I didn't only send in the Brett pack. I sent in several packs and I have not gotten any back and I don't expect to. As far as compensation goes on your packs you will have to discuss that with Joe.
Determining an approximate list of "suspect" flip numbers, just go to any weblogs and look up Jose's ebay sales of slabbed packs with stars on top. Once you get a few, check those flip numbers on the certificate verification function on the PSA web site.
From there just start moving up and down sequentially and you'll find a whole bunch of packs that were likely submitted by Jose.
No guarantees that you can find every pack he ever submitted, but very likely you'll find the vast majority of them if you get enough history from the weblog.
<< <i>I didn't only send in the Brett pack. I sent in several packs and I have not gotten any back and I don't expect to. As far as compensation goes on your packs you will have to discuss that with Joe. >>
I hope you get fairly compensated if they don't come back. How long ago did you send them in? How many days ago were the logged (LOL). Can you please keep us updated as to the outcome? And I am sorry for your loss. I am sure some if not all of them were not JUST packs of cards to you.
They are over 65 business days now and I wouldn't be surprised if they take a while longer since they probably want to take the time for a real good look
You guys are aware that every single pack sent in for grading goes through Steve Hart so the crazy wait times we have for these packs is understandable and will only get worse as the unopened pack market gets bigger. But it also speaks to how extremely difficult it is to detect fraudulent packs. I can only imagine how backed up Steve gets with this stuff...
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
I have just read this entire thread...new at this forum. Crazy what's been going on with packs but I appreciate the thoughts and forum.
I have recently purchased wax packs from bruingirl...the packs look very legit. Is it some folks thoughts on here that that ebay member might be selling altered packs? It sounds that way, not sure who Jose is, but bruin girl was mentioned. Any further insight would be helpful.
I also collect both PSA and GAI packs cello and wax and will be opening some soon as I prepare to submit some high quality cards to PSA at the National (hope to pull some additional beauties, and I do plan to open some of the bruin girl packs).
I was just saying that for me, sellers that have multiple instances of rack packs with seemingly impossible combinations, that my common sense radar goes off. When the seller you mentioned auctioned off the first 1983 topps rack with Boggs/Gwynn on top, I bought it immediately for the asking price because I had been searching for that one for years. It was disconcerting to me to see that over the next few weeks, the same seller put up two more such packs and a couple of others with Sandberg and Gwynn on top, and then others with 3 henderson cards on top, 3 reggie jackson (regular card, AS, and like Super Vet card), 3 ryan cards on top and many more similar to those (many with three major stars on top), all the while claiming they were her father's packs (which I think diverts accountability but who knows maybe it is legit). The packs I received actually looked great too, but based on the hundreds of other packs that were auctioned off, I made my conclusion --- which may be different from yours and others on this forum. If you subscribe to the theory that rack packs are strictly collated so that certain cards will always and only appear on certain panels of the rack packs, then many of the packs sold by that seller are completely off as well as in different rack packs being sold by that seller, the Gwynn card appear in all three panels in different rack packs as does the Boggs card. For that seller, too, the rack packs just keep coming and being auctioned. It was Steve Hart I believe that said one of the top indicators of inauthenticity in these items is multiple key cards on top of the same rack. In some cases (and I have many) I can buy the authenticity of two key cards on top, but three key cards on top is hard to buy in my opinion.
<< <i>It was Steve Hart I believe that said one of the top indicators of inauthenticity in these items is multiple key cards on top of the same rack. >>
I could be mistaken but don't think Steve claimed that. Perhaps an indicator for more scrutiny to be on the safe side rather than inauthentic.
edited to add and clarify: It also depends the year, collation, etc
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
Thanks Hamilton. I bought the sandberg and gwynn as well as the ripken and henderson from a couple weeks ago. I didn't realize until this forum what you just stated...in looking back at the feedback you can identify all the things sold and bought by and particular subscriber. I agree to have such an abundance of high end racks is crazy, but now I question other things...this particular subscriber was selling off multiple psa 8's from 1978...a few months later selling 1978 wax and many other years and claiming they are her fathers and doesn't really know a fair price...that doesn't coorelate well with previous actions on this account or I suppose the argument could be made that she took over his account...a little fishy. I'm going to open some of the wax I bought. Sounds to me like submitting the others to PSA might not be the best approach although that was my original intention...long turn around times and authentication in question is not what I expected. The fishy part to me is factoring in all the selling and buying behaviors don't necessarly match up with the auctions now. Oh well, live and learn...surely this isn't the end of it. Belz
"Also, when you see a rack pack that has multiple stars showing, ASSUME it is bad, until you can prove it otherwise. Rack packs that have 2 or 3 major stars showing are a huge red flag."
While it is impossible to definitively say that all of the rack packs being sold by bruingirl2007 are bad without being able to examine them in hand, I personally would not purchase any for the same reasons Greg mentioned above. I am a firm believer in the sequencing by Topps of rack packs with cards appearing only in specific sections as the majority of abnomalies with racks have star cards on top. As my friend Summer would say "All that glitters isn't gold".
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>While it is impossible to definitively say that all of the rack packs being sold by bruingirl2007 are bad without being able to examine them in hand, I personally would not purchase any for the same reasons Greg mentioned above. I am a firm believer in the sequencing by Topps of rack packs with cards appearing only in specific sections as the majority of abnomalies with racks have star cards on top. As my friend Summer would say "All that glitters isn't gold". >>
So is there a year specifically that has sequencing that works out where 2 stars CAN be showing on the same rack? How about 1978 with Molitor and Murray?
The Clockwork Angel Collection...brought to you by Bank of America, Wells Fargo, and Chase TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>While it is impossible to definitively say that all of the rack packs being sold by bruingirl2007 are bad without being able to examine them in hand, I personally would not purchase any for the same reasons Greg mentioned above. I am a firm believer in the sequencing by Topps of rack packs with cards appearing only in specific sections as the majority of abnomalies with racks have star cards on top. As my friend Summer would say "All that glitters isn't gold". >>
So is there a year specifically that has sequencing that works out where 2 stars CAN be showing on the same rack? How about 1978 with Molitor and Murray? >>
The '78 Molitor with Murray on top is theoretically possible as Murray should appear in header section and Molitor in far section.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>While it is impossible to definitively say that all of the rack packs being sold by bruingirl2007 are bad without being able to examine them in hand, I personally would not purchase any for the same reasons Greg mentioned above. I am a firm believer in the sequencing by Topps of rack packs with cards appearing only in specific sections as the majority of abnomalies with racks have star cards on top. As my friend Summer would say "All that glitters isn't gold". >>
So is there a year specifically that has sequencing that works out where 2 stars CAN be showing on the same rack? How about 1978 with Molitor and Murray? >>
Definitely possible for two stars to be showing on the same rack, but the odds of both of them being on front and not having been ripped are not very high at all IMHO.
Pretty sad that I actually know the answer to your second question without looking at my notes, yes in 1978 Murray will appear in the section closest to the header while Molitor/Trammel is in the furthest section. I don't ever recall seeing one with both cards appearing on top of a 1978 rack though.
Edited to add: Tim beat me to it again, LOL.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Absolutely. Two stars on top is definitely possible. A 1978 topps rack could conceivably have Murray and Molitor on top as the Murray would be on the panel closest to the pack header and the Molitor on the last panel farthest from the header. I have seen one (only one). A rack pack with Molitor and Whitaker (for example), however, on top would be unlikely because both typically occur in the same panel. I have a 78 topps rack with Murray and Nolan Ryan on top which I am confident is legit as both appear in their correct panels.
I do think however, that the paneling of certain cards is an extremely good indicator, but not 100% law.
In the rare occasion of a sequencing aberration in a rack pack, the card on other side of rack in that same section should reflect the same aberration. This is significant to note as most resealers will simply insert the star card in a section that otherwise contains the correct cards for that section..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
On a matter somewhat related to all of this, factory sequencing is the primary reason that I won't buy loose cello or rack packs with the intent of opening them. I don't know the sequences for late '70's and '80's racks, nor do I care to expend the time and effort to do so, but I suspect it's possible that somebody with this knowledge could open a box of racks, for example, look at the face and back cards to figure out what stars are in the panels, pick out the good racks to open and sell the rest.
<< <i>On a matter somewhat related to all of this, factory sequencing is the primary reason that I won't buy loose cello or rack packs with the intent of opening them. I don't know the sequences for late '70's and '80's racks, nor do I care to expend the time and effort to do so, but I suspect it's possible that somebody with this knowledge could open a box of racks, for example, look at the face and back cards to figure out what stars are in the panels, pick out the good racks to open and sell the rest. >>
No doubt that happened. The same principal could even apply to full wax boxes where guys will open packs until they hit the key cards and backfill the box. Also, when guys open a few packs from a box and realize that it has issues such as centering, they also backfill the box and sell it off to try their luck with another box. This is why sealed cases are at such a premium.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Has the sequencing of rack packs for Topps changed in the mid-80's? Or are the combinations due to abundance much more possible? I see on BBCE he has an 84 Football rack with 2 Eric Dickerson rookies on top in the mid and far sections. I have looked at 84 BB and see Strawberry on top and bottom in all 3 sections. I see Strawberry on top and Mattingly on bottom. In 85 I see plenty of Clemens on top and bottom in various positions as well. And do sequencing of rack pack order follow the same as in a cello pack. So for instance, a Clemens on top, 10 cards that follow might be a Puckett rookie. Would that same sequence follow in a cello pack? Or are they a different order?
<< <i>Has the sequencing of rack packs for Topps changed in the mid-80's? Or are the combinations due to abundance much more possible? I see on BBCE he has an 84 Football rack with 2 Eric Dickerson rookies on top in the mid and far sections. I have looked at 84 BB and see Strawberry on top and bottom in all 3 sections. I see Strawberry on top and Mattingly on bottom. In 85 I see plenty of Clemens on top and bottom in various positions as well. And do sequencing of rack pack order follow the same as in a cello pack. So for instance, a Clemens on top, 10 cards that follow might be a Puckett rookie. Would that same sequence follow in a cello pack? Or are they a different order? >>
Strictly speaking to baseball as I don't collect packs from any other sport, Topps racks were still following sequencing until at least 1986. Mattingly, Strawberry and Clemens were the cards to have during that time and I would be uncomfortable if they weren't in the section I was expecting. In addition, the card on back of the same section as the star card should agree with the coding for that star card, regardless.
As far as the sequence of cards in a cello vs. a rack pack, I will say that although I don't rip packs I've heard that racks tend to hold their sequencing longer than in cellos which flip about halfway through the pack. The longer you go in the sequence, the more chance you have for a flip in it. 10 cards is a lot which is usually why you want the indicator card to be within 2 or 3 of the money card.
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep, And miles to go before I sleep, And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting: Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Comments
<< <i>Ok. I have been out of loop, so what exactly happened? If someone wouldn't mind explaining it would be great?
I am inferring that Elsipep has been found to be a fraud? Though I am not sure. He is still on ebay with packs for sale. If that is the case, below are my thoughts.
1.) What a shame. That guy literally made hundreds of thousands of dollars selling fake packs
2.) There are people who can make rack and cellos packs as well as the originally factory. No grading company can differentiate. You and I are every bit as effective in determining whether a rack or cello pack is real or not. If you think it is fake, it probably is fake, if you think it is real, there is a still a half way decent chance it is fake. Best judgment is common sense, but I have veered away from collecting these recently because of the incredible deluge of 1975 rack packs and 1983 topps rack packs with incredible combinations of cards on top (the same seller bruin... on ebay has put for auction 4 1983 topps racks with Gwynn/Boggs top and three others with Sandberg/Gwynn on top with the disclaimer "these were my dad's and I don't know much about them) . My collection is open for public viewing at http://thehistorykids.net/packs --- Never had anyone of them graded. Probably some are fake. I thought they were all real when I bought them (and hope they all are), but it is clear now that some people can reproduce them perfectly. I have bought every one of them over the past seven or eight years on ebay.
3.) I stay away from folks like Elsipep, Bruin.... etc. who have seemingly endless supplies of rare cellos and racks with stars on top. ebay feedback IS NOT a reliable indicator whatsoever. The truth is these are very rare items. Also don't buy graded items and these present a false sense of authenticity. >>
You don't need to be filled in at all. You just nailed exactly what happened.
With the money he made selling them. He will be doing it again.
<< <i>2.) There are people who can make rack and cellos packs as well as the originally factory. No grading company can differentiate. You and I are every bit as effective in determining whether a rack or cello pack is real or not. >>
Like it or not, this thread will likely go "poof" on Monday. I definitely thought about hamilton989 (Greg) and this thread when everything went down in January. BTW - things are getting pretty interesting over at the other playground.
<< <i>MArk--I was not calling out a few guys. I am just stating a fact. Had I bought from "that guy" and posted positive comments, I would be embarrassed. I consider myself knowledgable on unopened and don't like to be fooled--nor does anyone else. Fact is "that guy" got over on many people, many of whom are knowledgeable in vintage unopened, and most I would assume are a bit red-faced. I am not mocking them, just stating a human emotion.
And yes we all have some in our collection that raise some eyebrows >>
Jose fooled many of us, including Steve. It is unfortunate, but it happened. Even the most knowledgable collectors are taken from time to time and hindsight is always 20/20. I recall a while back when Summer and I pointed out a number of bad 73 cellos with stars on top that were circulating that had the wrong product code on back (packs fabricated with wrappers that were used in 1975-1977, not 1973), that you were unaware of this, too.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I still remember that thread about the 73s and the Schmidt pack-- that detective work with Summerof68 was among the best the board has seen. And enlightening and educational, too.
<< <i>This is an aspect of the issue that often gets lost. but I do think Hart and PSA should have issued a statement on the whole affair/fiasco, explaining how they can now with confidence avoid the mistakes made on those packs-- assuming they have studied the problem technically and solved it. A statement would help resuscitate and bolster confidence, and that's a purely positive thing for this sector of the hobby. >>
Well said, Matt. It would be nice to hear something rather than have it brushed under the rug.
And just as you state, "assuming they have studied the problem technically and solved it..." this leads me to wonder if they can truthfully state that they can "now with confidence avoid the same mistakes". I would hope so. Too much money gets tossed around in this hobby for PSA to not get it right. I trust that they do get things right most of the time.
<< <i> Too much money gets tossed around in this hobby for PSA to not get it right. . >>
PSA is just an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.
<< <i>I agree with everyone that this Jose character seems like a special kind of sociopath. What he did was (is?) nothing short of fraud. However, there are some people that -- when they found out they had bad packs -- immediately dumped them on unsuspecting people that didn't have their inside information of the FBI investigation, using both ebay and AHs. That, too, is pretty low. >>
The problem is no one has ever found out they have or had bad packs. No one knows what packs are bad and not. It's all just fear and rumour based on the one fact that bad packs from that one source got past PSA. That's a big problem. Jose maintains he's never sold a fake pack, and all the fake packs were kept to prove the incompetence of PSA Hart. But of course it's tough to know if that's true. Complicating matters and making the situation fuzzier is that there has never been a formal statement on any FBI investigation either. So it's impossible to know what is good and bad out there. In the absence of PSA saying officially that, "These specific packs are bad," all anyone can do is assume PSA stands by any given pack. So no one actually ever found out, and still hasn't found out to this day, that they have any bad packs. All we know for certain is that bad packs were made and got past the PSA goalie. Beyond that, it's still unfortunately murky. It's really on PSA to bring the whole situation into the light and assure the hobby they can now detect such packs. Then institute a simple free review process for any pack, and things can return to normal. Otherwise we're all still operating in the dark as we are now, wondering what's good, what's bad, etc.
<< <i>The guy we are referring to once posted on here a pic showing a bunch of 1975 racks. And half of them had the stars in the wrong cells. I recall someone called him out on it, too. But I can't find the thread or pic. If someone can find this pic, it will be enjoyable as well. >>
I think it might have been on Muggy's "Stars on Top" thread that that got poofed, but I was the one that called him out on it. That is when I started thinking something might be up with Jose, but at the time he could have claimed he got them from someone else so I treaded lightly when I questioned him on it. Like Tim said, hindsight is 20/20 unfortunately.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>The problem is no one has ever found out they have or had bad packs. No one knows what packs are bad and not. It's all just fear and rumour based on the one fact that bad packs from that one source got past PSA. That's a big problem. Jose maintains he's never sold a fake pack, and all the fake packs were kept to prove the incompetence of PSA Hart. But of course it's tough to know if that's true. Complicating matters and making the situation fuzzier is that there has never been a formal statement on any FBI investigation either. So it's impossible to know what is good and bad out there. In the absence of PSA saying officially that, "These specific packs are bad," all anyone can do is assume PSA stands by any given pack. So no one actually ever found out, and still hasn't found out to this day, that they have any bad packs. All we know for certain is that bad packs were made and got past the PSA goalie. Beyond that, it's still unfortunately murky. It's really on PSA to bring the whole situation into the light and assure the hobby they can now detect such packs. Then institute a simple free review process for any pack, and things can return to normal. Otherwise we're all still operating in the dark as we are now, wondering what's good, what's bad, etc. >>
Bingo Matt.
Hypothetical question for everyone: If after further review, PSA were to make a statement saying the 17 '78 Murray OT cello packs are bad, that the 13 '79 Ozzie OT packs are bad, etc, etc - then what? What would the hobby (especially the owners of the packs) expect to happen next?
<< <i>Hypothetical question for everyone: If after further review, PSA were to make a statement saying the 17 '78 Murray OT cello packs are bad, that the 13 '79 Ozzie OT packs are bad, etc, etc - then what? What would the hobby (especially the owners of the packs) expect to happen next? >>
Issue a recall on ALL of his packs. Compensate the people that send them in. Open all of the packs and forensically study them and learn something and move forward.
I know a lot of people are sticking up for Steve Hart and PSA on this forum. I am sure he is honest guy and certainly has taken the high road on all of this. That being said, would you ever submit packs for grading again? Would you pay an premium whatsoever for a pack graded by PSA? This is why people pay hundreds of dollars of more for a "graded" pack than an ungraded pack --- for Steve and PSA's expert opinion.
This guy is an incredible storyteller. I saw in the other forum how he had actually managed to convince some (at least a couple) people that his intentions were good. Some were nearly singing his praises. Unreal. See my original post about how one of his son's friends must of stolen the pack that was supposed to be shipped to me.
<< <i>
<< <i> Too much money gets tossed around in this hobby for PSA to not get it right. . >>
PSA is just an opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. >>
I agree, yes, they render an opinion on the grade, but they offer more than that when you have a card or pack authenticated.
When it comes to authentication and the detection of alterations, etc., we, as collectors, put some trust in them to catch these things. This is a service PSA offers along with the grade, correct? Some alterations or issues with authenticity can be factual, not based on opinion, and on these matters I would hope that PSA would get it right (eg. pack sequencing, how packs were sealed from the factory, date codes on the actual wrappers, etc.).
[for the record, and considering PSA's volume, they probably get it right 98.5% of the time.]
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem is no one has ever found out they have or had bad packs. No one knows what packs are bad and not. It's all just fear and rumour based on the one fact that bad packs from that one source got past PSA. That's a big problem. Jose maintains he's never sold a fake pack, and all the fake packs were kept to prove the incompetence of PSA Hart. But of course it's tough to know if that's true. Complicating matters and making the situation fuzzier is that there has never been a formal statement on any FBI investigation either. So it's impossible to know what is good and bad out there. In the absence of PSA saying officially that, "These specific packs are bad," all anyone can do is assume PSA stands by any given pack. So no one actually ever found out, and still hasn't found out to this day, that they have any bad packs. All we know for certain is that bad packs were made and got past the PSA goalie. Beyond that, it's still unfortunately murky. It's really on PSA to bring the whole situation into the light and assure the hobby they can now detect such packs. Then institute a simple free review process for any pack, and things can return to normal. Otherwise we're all still operating in the dark as we are now, wondering what's good, what's bad, etc. >>
Bingo Matt.
Hypothetical question for everyone: If after further review, PSA were to make a statement saying the 17 '78 Murray OT cello packs are bad, that the 13 '79 Ozzie OT packs are bad, etc, etc - then what? What would the hobby (especially the owners of the packs) expect to happen next? >>
I'm going to respectfully disagree. Of course, it's basically an ethics question so if we ask 10 people we'll likely get 10 different answers, all falling somewhere on the spectrum. The question is one that everyone would have to answer for themselves but me, personally, would not want anything to do with someone that bolted to sell the questionable packs and then washed their hands of the situation by saying "maybe he sold some good ones, who knows? No way to tell. Oh well."
We know that a list exists, although it doesn't appear to be public domain. I would think an owner of a questionable pack could just contact PSA and say "I've got a pack that I bought from Jose. Can I send it back in for you to look at again and how would you handle the situation if it turned out to be bad?" I don't know what PSA would say and I'll certainly not pretend to speak for them, but I would imagine you would get a response from them one way or another.
But that's just my own POV. Obviously, different people are going to handle the situation differently. But I'll stand by my earlier comment that passing off Jose packs to unsuspecting buyers because one found out that he was the subject of a yet publicly known FBI investigation is low.
photographic and ebay auction record EVIDENCE to back that up.
Then there was Muggy, who was one of a small group of people that discovered Jose's FRAUD and
then made himself a part of it by immediately dumping all of his holdings last June before it came out.
The simple solution is to publish ALL flip numbers for any pack Jose submitted. Just assume them all to
be bad (even if they are not). Publicize the existence of this list so that it becomes commonly known by
all pack collectors. That should more or less kill 85%-90% of any resale of the packs in question.
And finally, my understanding is that we will not see anything said by Steve or PSA until they receive
approval to make a public statement about it. They are victims of Jose's fraud too. So it's best to let
it sit until they are freed to discuss it.
Dave
<< <i>Jose was caught RED HANDED selling doctored packs. There was no doubt about it. The is
photographic and ebay auction record EVIDENCE to back that up.
Then there was Muggy, who was one of a small group of people that discovered Jose's FRAUD and
then made himself a part of it by immediately dumping all of his holdings last June before it came out.
The simple solution is to publish ALL flip numbers for any pack Jose submitted. Just assume them all to
be bad (even if they are not). Publicize the existence of this list so that it becomes commonly known by
all pack collectors. That should more or less kill 85%-90% of any resale of the packs in question.
And finally, my understanding is that we will not see anything said by Steve or PSA until they receive
approval to make a public statement about it. They are victims of Jose's fraud too. So it's best to let
it sit until they are freed to discuss it. >>
I'm not going to hold my breath on this idea, but I like it anyway.
<< <i>If anyone here owns one just contact Joe and send it back for a free review >>
What do they know now that they didn't know then that will enable them to catch them on review? Also, how do people know they own one? There are hundreds of packs out there that went from person to person to person like a bad virus.
Edit: Also, once reviewed are they issuing new cert numbers so the packs are not associated with the rest of the Jose packs?
<< <i>I am obviously speaking about people who bought direct from him. Many people here did and can get free reviews. As for what they know now that they didn't before? I have no idea but all I am saying is you can get a free review on his packs. >>
Is that what they did with your Brett pack? If so, did they issue you a new cert number?
Jose's ebay sales of slabbed packs with stars on top. Once you get a few, check those flip
numbers on the certificate verification function on the PSA web site.
From there just start moving up and down sequentially and you'll find a whole bunch of packs that
were likely submitted by Jose.
No guarantees that you can find every pack he ever submitted, but very likely you'll find the vast majority of
them if you get enough history from the weblog.
Dave
<< <i>I didn't only send in the Brett pack. I sent in several packs and I have not gotten any back and I don't expect to. As far as compensation goes on your packs you will have to discuss that with Joe. >>
I hope you get fairly compensated if they don't come back. How long ago did you send them in? How many days ago were the logged (LOL). Can you please keep us updated as to the outcome? And I am sorry for your loss. I am sure some if not all of them were not JUST packs of cards to you.
Does more than one authenticator look at a pack?
I am not familiar with this aspect of grading and dont own a graded pack, I am just curious...thanks
Looking for 1970 MLB Photostamps
- uncut
Positive Transactions - tennesseebanker, Ahmanfan, Donruss, Colebear, CDsNuts, rbdjr1, Downtown1974, yankeeno7, drewsef, mnolan, mrbud60, msassin, RipublicaninMass, AkbarClone, rustywilly, lsutigers1973, julen23 and nam812, plus many others...
TheClockworkAngelCollection
Robb
I have recently purchased wax packs from bruingirl...the packs look very legit. Is it some folks thoughts on here that that ebay member might be selling altered packs? It sounds that way, not sure who Jose is, but bruin girl was mentioned. Any further insight would be helpful.
I also collect both PSA and GAI packs cello and wax and will be opening some soon as I prepare to submit some high quality cards to PSA at the National (hope to pull some additional beauties, and I do plan to open some of the bruin girl packs).
Thanks again for any insight.
B
I was just saying that for me, sellers that have multiple instances of rack packs with seemingly impossible combinations, that my common sense radar goes off. When the seller you mentioned auctioned off the first 1983 topps rack with Boggs/Gwynn on top, I bought it immediately for the asking price because I had been searching for that one for years. It was disconcerting to me to see that over the next few weeks, the same seller put up two more such packs and a couple of others with Sandberg and Gwynn on top, and then others with 3 henderson cards on top, 3 reggie jackson (regular card, AS, and like Super Vet card), 3 ryan cards on top and many more similar to those (many with three major stars on top), all the while claiming they were her father's packs (which I think diverts accountability but who knows maybe it is legit). The packs I received actually looked great too, but based on the hundreds of other packs that were auctioned off, I made my conclusion --- which may be different from yours and others on this forum. If you subscribe to the theory that rack packs are strictly collated so that certain cards will always and only appear on certain panels of the rack packs, then many of the packs sold by that seller are completely off as well as in different rack packs being sold by that seller, the Gwynn card appear in all three panels in different rack packs as does the Boggs card. For that seller, too, the rack packs just keep coming and being auctioned. It was Steve Hart I believe that said one of the top indicators of inauthenticity in these items is multiple key cards on top of the same rack. In some cases (and I have many) I can buy the authenticity of two key cards on top, but three key cards on top is hard to buy in my opinion.
<< <i>It was Steve Hart I believe that said one of the top indicators of inauthenticity in these items is multiple key cards on top of the same rack. >>
I could be mistaken but don't think Steve claimed that. Perhaps an indicator for more scrutiny to be on the safe side rather than inauthentic.
edited to add and clarify: It also depends the year, collation, etc
Belz
"Also, when you see a rack pack that has multiple stars showing, ASSUME it is bad, until you can prove it otherwise. Rack packs that have 2 or 3 major stars showing are a huge red flag."
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>While it is impossible to definitively say that all of the rack packs being sold by bruingirl2007 are bad without being able to examine them in hand, I personally would not purchase any for the same reasons Greg mentioned above. I am a firm believer in the sequencing by Topps of rack packs with cards appearing only in specific sections as the majority of abnomalies with racks have star cards on top. As my friend Summer would say "All that glitters isn't gold". >>
So is there a year specifically that has sequencing that works out where 2 stars CAN be showing on the same rack? How about 1978 with Molitor and Murray?
TheClockworkAngelCollection
<< <i>
<< <i>While it is impossible to definitively say that all of the rack packs being sold by bruingirl2007 are bad without being able to examine them in hand, I personally would not purchase any for the same reasons Greg mentioned above. I am a firm believer in the sequencing by Topps of rack packs with cards appearing only in specific sections as the majority of abnomalies with racks have star cards on top. As my friend Summer would say "All that glitters isn't gold". >>
So is there a year specifically that has sequencing that works out where 2 stars CAN be showing on the same rack? How about 1978 with Molitor and Murray? >>
The '78 Molitor with Murray on top is theoretically possible as Murray should appear in header section and Molitor in far section.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>While it is impossible to definitively say that all of the rack packs being sold by bruingirl2007 are bad without being able to examine them in hand, I personally would not purchase any for the same reasons Greg mentioned above. I am a firm believer in the sequencing by Topps of rack packs with cards appearing only in specific sections as the majority of abnomalies with racks have star cards on top. As my friend Summer would say "All that glitters isn't gold". >>
So is there a year specifically that has sequencing that works out where 2 stars CAN be showing on the same rack? How about 1978 with Molitor and Murray? >>
Definitely possible for two stars to be showing on the same rack, but the odds of both of them being on front and not having been ripped are not very high at all IMHO.
Pretty sad that I actually know the answer to your second question without looking at my notes, yes in 1978 Murray will appear in the section closest to the header while Molitor/Trammel is in the furthest section. I don't ever recall seeing one with both cards appearing on top of a 1978 rack though.
Edited to add: Tim beat me to it again, LOL.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
Absolutely. Two stars on top is definitely possible. A 1978 topps rack could conceivably have Murray and Molitor on top as the Murray would be on the panel closest to the pack header and the Molitor on the last panel farthest from the header. I have seen one (only one). A rack pack with Molitor and Whitaker (for example), however, on top would be unlikely because both typically occur in the same panel. I have a 78 topps rack with Murray and Nolan Ryan on top which I am confident is legit as both appear in their correct panels.
I do think however, that the paneling of certain cards is an extremely good indicator, but not 100% law.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>On a matter somewhat related to all of this, factory sequencing is the primary reason that I won't buy loose cello or rack packs with the intent of opening them. I don't know the sequences for late '70's and '80's racks, nor do I care to expend the time and effort to do so, but I suspect it's possible that somebody with this knowledge could open a box of racks, for example, look at the face and back cards to figure out what stars are in the panels, pick out the good racks to open and sell the rest. >>
No doubt that happened. The same principal could even apply to full wax boxes where guys will open packs until they hit the key cards and backfill the box. Also, when guys open a few packs from a box and realize that it has issues such as centering, they also backfill the box and sell it off to try their luck with another box. This is why sealed cases are at such a premium.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>Has the sequencing of rack packs for Topps changed in the mid-80's? Or are the combinations due to abundance much more possible? I see on BBCE he has an 84 Football rack with 2 Eric Dickerson rookies on top in the mid and far sections. I have looked at 84 BB and see Strawberry on top and bottom in all 3 sections. I see Strawberry on top and Mattingly on bottom. In 85 I see plenty of Clemens on top and bottom in various positions as well. And do sequencing of rack pack order follow the same as in a cello pack. So for instance, a Clemens on top, 10 cards that follow might be a Puckett rookie. Would that same sequence follow in a cello pack? Or are they a different order? >>
Strictly speaking to baseball as I don't collect packs from any other sport, Topps racks were still following sequencing until at least 1986. Mattingly, Strawberry and Clemens were the cards to have during that time and I would be uncomfortable if they weren't in the section I was expecting. In addition, the card on back of the same section as the star card should agree with the coding for that star card, regardless.
As far as the sequence of cards in a cello vs. a rack pack, I will say that although I don't rip packs I've heard that racks tend to hold their sequencing longer than in cellos which flip about halfway through the pack. The longer you go in the sequence, the more chance you have for a flip in it. 10 cards is a lot which is usually why you want the indicator card to be within 2 or 3 of the money card.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.