1975 Topps Rack Showing Brett & Yount on Front - Real?
70ToppsFanatic
Posts: 2,106 ✭✭✭✭
Based on what we've been learning over the past few days about 1975 Topps Racks, I submit for your opinion
the following rack that is currently up for sale in the Mile High auction:
http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=22300&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=32&seo=1975-Topps-Baseball-Unopened-Rack-Pack-with-Yount-and-Brett-Rookies-on-top-GAI-8-NM/MT
1) Brett is located in what appears to be the "low number" cell, which is where we have seen him in our reasearch.
2) Yount, who should be in a "low number" cell is showing in the "high number" cell. Further, Yount only has a single asterisk on the lower left rear
and cards in the "high number" cell all have the double asterisks on the lower left rear (in all the racks I've opened and seen I have never seen a
single card with only 1 asterisk in the lower left rear in this cell).
3) Listing says Carlton is showing on the back (no picture provided, so I don't know which cell it is). Regardless of which cell he shows in the sequencing
from our research has Carlton following Brett immediately, so how could Carlton be showing on the back.
Based on the above inconsistencies I have some real doubts that this pack is legitimate, despite being graded by GAI. I plan to call Mile High tomorrow
and get some additional details.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this pack?
the following rack that is currently up for sale in the Mile High auction:
http://www.milehighcardco.com/LotDetail.aspx?lotid=22300&searchby=0&searchvalue=None&page=0&sortby=0&displayby=2&lotsperpage=100&category=32&seo=1975-Topps-Baseball-Unopened-Rack-Pack-with-Yount-and-Brett-Rookies-on-top-GAI-8-NM/MT
1) Brett is located in what appears to be the "low number" cell, which is where we have seen him in our reasearch.
2) Yount, who should be in a "low number" cell is showing in the "high number" cell. Further, Yount only has a single asterisk on the lower left rear
and cards in the "high number" cell all have the double asterisks on the lower left rear (in all the racks I've opened and seen I have never seen a
single card with only 1 asterisk in the lower left rear in this cell).
3) Listing says Carlton is showing on the back (no picture provided, so I don't know which cell it is). Regardless of which cell he shows in the sequencing
from our research has Carlton following Brett immediately, so how could Carlton be showing on the back.
Based on the above inconsistencies I have some real doubts that this pack is legitimate, despite being graded by GAI. I plan to call Mile High tomorrow
and get some additional details.
Does anyone else have any thoughts on this pack?
Dave
0
Comments
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
in the low number cell.
There is very strong evidence that something isn't quite right here.
Dave
Edit to add: Unless Carlton is not actually the card on back of the rack, but simply the card following Brett in the sleeve, which would make that part accurate.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Yount pack
Yount pack
That rack is different, though, for one key reason: the header card is on the LEFT side of the rack instead of the RIGHT side where it is typically located, so if the header card were on the "usual" side, Yount would be in the correct section. If the ** cards are in the section furthest from Yount that would confirm that the location is reversed because of an abnormality with the production of the rack and the side of the rack the header card was affixed to.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
where it should be in normal 1975 Topps racks.
I saw this rack listed o n Ebay and thought it strange that it had the left-sided header. I was not aware that
Topps made them this way. Now with a double asterisk card showing in the center section I am even more
curious about this one.
Dave
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Dave
Cheers,
Robb
1975 Mile High Rack but was not positive as I did not think the Yount could fall away from the
header card. I was looking to hear from the experts here as many know more than I on stuff
like this and if there were exceptions or not.
I saw the ebay rack but unless I know the seller or it is Steve Hart I will pass on an item like that!
Too risky for me.
aconte
<< <i>I posted about this pack on the stars on top thread as I had my doubts on the Yount/Brett
1975 Mile High Rack but was not positive as I did not think the Yount could fall away from the
header card. I was looking to hear from the experts here as many know more than I on stuff
like this and if there were exceptions or not.
I saw the ebay rack but unless I know the seller or it is Steve Hart I will pass on an item like that!
Too risky for me.
aconte >>
I take the same approachwith anything slabbed by GAI. Those guys have allowed enough illegitimate items
to be slabbed that at this point it seems like a crapshoot (if not worse).
Dave
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
<< <i>very informative thread. i did not realize the cell's were categorized as low and high. i appreciate the knowledge shared/gained in this forum. >>
That was the way Topps ensured that a reasonable distribution of cards would be received by each purchaser when they moved from issuing the
cards in series. Besides, can you imagine buying a 42 cards rack and receiving 5 duplicates of the same card. Certainly would have been a rather
large disappointment for a kid (unless he got 5 Brett cards or some other star in the rack).
I don't know the exact history behind the double asterisk marking for the high number cell cards, but if I were to guess it also had something to do
with sorting the cards prior to packaging so that they could get reasonable distributions from the various series in each package.
Lastly, my experience with pre-1974 Topps unopened material is that there was not much to the sequencing (because the cards were released in
series-specific packaging). From 1974 and on the card sequencing was (and is) much more reliable. Once we get a bit further on the 1975 Topps
rack rip and people post their sequencing to the thread I will add to the collation I've been doing and publish it for everyone. Already at this stage
we have a pretty good idea of the cards that lead and follow the Brett RC, Yount RC, Jackson and Aaron 75 highlights. And with Tim's help if he can
provide some additional info on the rear cards from some of his unopened 1975 Topps racks we may be able to add to this knowledge base.
Dave
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Topps White Out (silver) letters Alex Gordon
80 Topps Greg Pryor “No Name"
90 ProSet Dexter Manley error
90 Topps Jeff King Yellow back
1958 Topps Pancho Herrera (no“a”)
81 Topps Art Howe (black smear above hat)
91 D A. Hawkins BC-12 “Pitcher”
That said, I've seen rak packs from the early 70's run 18 deep and also some all over the place.
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
I am sure we'd all be very interested in learning more details about sequencing from you if you have the time
and willingness to do so.
Dave
I posted a picture of it on a rack and cello page I made:
http://www.thehistorykids.net/packs
<< <i>This is a great thread. I am new to the message board but am very interested in 70s unopened material, specifically the 1975 topps rack with Brett and Yount. I have a 1975 topps mini rack with Brett and Yount on top and am wondering people's thoughts on it (authenticity). Also have a regular issue rack with Ryan and Yount pictured too.
I posted a picture of it on a rack and cello page I made:
http://www.thehistorykids.net/packs >>
Greg, welcome to the boards. You're in good company here as there are a number of very knowledgable unopened rack collectors. BTW...nice racks!
Thanks
<< <i>I saw your negative to Elsipep on your page, I've actually bought from him some closed packs in the past. do we stll have current reasons to doubt his stuff?
Thanks >>
I have bought a few PSA graded packs from him and they all looked good to me. I'm sure PSA has made mistakes before but I see no reason to doubt his stuff especially if Steve Hart has validated it as well.
Can there be legitimate variations to sequencing and card placement when it comes to racks? Sure, but if the variation or abnormalities concern the two key cards in the set and not, say, Milt May, one has to be wary, imo.
Welcome to the boards!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>This is a great thread. I am new to the message board but am very interested in 70s unopened material, specifically the 1975 topps rack with Brett and Yount. I have a 1975 topps mini rack with Brett and Yount on top and am wondering people's thoughts on it (authenticity). Also have a regular issue rack with Ryan and Yount pictured too.
I posted a picture of it on a rack and cello page I made:
http://www.thehistorykids.net/packs >>
This is a great link and well worth a click for anyone that's interested in star racks and cellos. Thanks for sharing!
Hamilton989's pack collection
I've had a 75 cello with brett on top and yount and back and vice versa and I even owned a brett/brett cello, but not a yount/yount...
all these were slabbed by gai...I sold my pack inventory around 4 years ago....
Ebay Store:
Probstein123
phone: 973 747 6304
email: rickprobstein1@gmail.com
Probstein123 is actively accepting CONSIGNMENTS !!
A couple of years ago, he auctioned off a 1983 fleer rack pack that had Wade Boggs and Tony Gwynn showing on the front. I won the auction, paid him immediately and thought he would send the rack promptly. Two or so days later, he refunded my money and reported to ebay that the pack was damaged in handling. In thinking to myself how someone could have damaged a 1983 fleer pack when packaging it up, I came to the conclusion that he didn't want ME to buy it. This particular dealer subsequently banned me from all of his auctions. My guess is that he knew I could tell a fake pack from a real pack and he was hesitant in sending me the fake. I left him negative feedback. Confirming my suspicions, after the 90 day period where I could no longer submit any formal complaints, and at the time, when images would be deleted from ebay's database, the very same rack pack came up for auction from him again. So, it really wasn't damaged in "handling," he was hesitant to sell it to me. This combined with his seemingly endless supply of unbelievable unopened material including star racks and cellos from every year imaginable has led me to believe he sells inauthentic stuff.
This is only my opinion based on my limited experiences with him. I have never actually received unopened material from him. It is very likely he sells legitimate stuff as well, I guess. I will remove the line on my page that mentions him, as I never intended this topic to be brought up here.
Thanks, Greg
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Thanks everyone for welcoming into the forum. A couple of people have asked about my experiences with the ebay dealer Elsipep, and although I have no intention of disparaging anyone or any dealer here on this forum, I will relay one experience I had with him which led me to leave him negative feedback on ebay:
A couple of years ago, he auctioned off a 1983 fleer rack pack that had Wade Boggs and Tony Gwynn showing on the front. I won the auction, paid him immediately and thought he would send the rack promptly. Two or so days later, he refunded my money and reported to ebay that the pack was damaged in handling. In thinking to myself how someone could have damaged a 1983 fleer pack when packaging it up, I came to the conclusion that he didn't want ME to buy it. This particular dealer subsequently banned me from all of his auctions. My guess is that he knew I could tell a fake pack from a real pack and he was hesitant in sending me the fake. I left him negative feedback. Confirming my suspicions, after the 90 day period where I could no longer submit any formal complaints, and at the time, when images would be deleted from ebay's database, the very same rack pack came up for auction from him again. So, it really wasn't damaged in "handling," he was hesitant to sell it to me. This combined with his seemingly endless supply of unbelievable unopened material including star racks and cellos from every year imaginable has led me to believe he sells inauthentic stuff.
This is only my opinion based on my limited experiences with him. I have never actually received unopened material from him. It is very likely he sells legitimate stuff as well, I guess. I will remove the line on my page that mentions him, as I never intended this topic to be brought up here.
Thanks, Greg >>
Unfortunately, this has been a feud that has gone on for four years. I have posted the original email below showing in detail how your recount of the story is incorrect. The pack was stolen by my sons friend. I am an honest, truthful man. I have a reputation on e-bay and well before the internet was invented of dealing honestly and being a straight shooter. I have been in the card business for over 40 years. You can ask any of my customers how much I am respected in the industry. I would appreciate if in the future you stick to the truth, so I don't have to present information to prove my credibility against your erroneous accusations. I am sorry that you have not gotten over a situation 4 years old, that was out of my control. Even though, as a man who respects customer service, I tried to make amends when the incident happened. You called me a liar then, which was incorrect, and now you post lies about me on a forum. That is not what a man does.
Yours truly, Jose
Re: Item #250167895428 - Notification of an Instant Payment Received from hamilton989 (mrn@mrnussbaum.com)
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FROM:
Greg Nussbaum
TO:
jose vasquez
Message flagged Thursday, October 4, 2007 5:42 AMMessage body
Jose,
I have to tell you, I don't believe your story. First, you made a mistake when you were "packing" the item, and now it is stolen? Are you serious? Never have I had this kind of experience in dealing with an ebay purchase. I think the truth is the pack sold for much lower than you thought it would and that is why you are not honoring the CONTRACT.
This is why ebay has a feedback system. Please send me the pack, I will repay the money you refunded me and I will NOT leave negative feedback and alert Ebay to this fraud. Please respond within 24 hours.
Sincerely,
Greg Nussbaum
jose vasquez <pepis_1_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hello Greg,
when i went to get the pack out of the cabinet
in my office, it was gone! stolen! probably
by some youg kid friend of the family i think,
i hoping to get it back, but is taking me some time
to investigate, so, for now i have to give you
a refund on it, i have a very similar pack listed
right now (Gwynn/Sandberg graded 9.5 also)
item # 250172307764
if you by chance happen to like it, i would be
happy to exchange it, i apologize for the
inconvenience, although the loser here is me.
Jose
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I want to add here that I have dealt with Jose many times over the years and have never had any problems at all. He has always provided outstanding customer service and is extremely trustworthy. >>
+1
Also, while there is no documentation for sequencing patterns of the 1975 mini regular sized 1975 Topps cards, I personally would also stay clear of a pack with Yount in the far section from the header card.
I would rather of purchased the cello pack Jose had offered a month or so ago with Brett/Yount front to back especially since it was authenticated by Steve Hart (PSA) and sold by a solid cat (Jose). Has Steve
Hart looked at the rack pack? It would not shock me if the Mile High rack pack referenced on the website was bad....
aconte
BTW Greg, I would like to welcome you to the boards and say that your collection is very impressive indeed. I take you at your word that it was not your intention that this misunderstanding be bought up on the board and I think it was a good decision to remove that line from your page regarding Jose as it really is just your personal opinion.
Looking forward to your posts.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."
Collecting:
Any unopened Baseball cello and rack packs and boxes from the 1970's and early 1980s.
<< <i>No offense, Greg, but it's really rather preseumptuous to call someone a resealer when you have never even received any product from that seller. And how would he know that you knew to "tell a fake pack from a real pack" if he had never even dealt with you before prior to that auction? I suspect there's another reason here that he chose not to sell the pack to you. >>
I too have bought a couple both graded and ungraded packs from Jose and find his items to be as advertised. He's in the handful of folks I feel good about buying packs from and his wealth of knowledge is just tremendous. It just sounds like you two had a bad one-off encounter which when you conduct a lot of transactions is bound to happen every now and then.
I did enjoy reading your web page Greg. I think the more information we can all be armed with will help cut down on the making and selling of these fake packs.
Join the Rookie stars on top PSA registry today:
1980-1989 Cello Packs - Rookies
great job digging this thread up!! Going back and reading Hamilton's remarks and then everyone else's comments who apparently bought packs from "that guy" -- it is surreal. Spot on Hamilton. The rest of you--just a wee bit embarrassed me thinks
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
<< <i>morning!
great job digging this thread up!! Going back and reading Hamilton's remarks and then everyone else's comments who apparently bought packs from "that guy" -- it is surreal. Spot on Hamilton. The rest of you--just a wee bit embarrassed me thinks >>
Manny, there were a TON of people singing Jose's praises. He fooled almost everyone so I wouldn't highlight the few guys on this thread who vouched for Jose. I only bought two things from him and still have them. Luckily it was only a couple hundred bucks. We ALL have a fake pack/rack in our collection.
Mark
T206 Set - 300/524
<< <i>We ALL have a fake pack/rack in our collection. >>
Yep, I was thinking the same thing.
<< <i>If girls can have fake racks, then I guess it's ok for guys to have some too. >>
I don't know about you, but I stay away from those type places in town.
eBay Store
Greg Maddux #1 Master SetGreg Maddux #2 Basic Set
And yes we all have some in our collection that raise some eyebrows
<< <i>And yes we all have some in our collection that raise some eyebrows >>
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>Vintage Original 1975 TOPPS #223 ROBIN YOUNT (RC) "RACK PACK" (SEALED) PSA-10 ?? >>
Really Paul? Joining a thread about resealed packs?
I am inferring that Elsipep has been found to be a fraud? Though I am not sure. He is still on ebay with packs for sale. If that is the case, below are my thoughts.
1.) What a shame. That guy literally made hundreds of thousands of dollars selling fake packs
2.) There are people who can make rack and cellos packs as well as the originally factory. No grading company can differentiate. You and I are every bit as effective in determining whether a rack or cello pack is real or not. If you think it is fake, it probably is fake, if you think it is real, there is a still a half way decent chance it is fake. Best judgment is common sense, but I have veered away from collecting these recently because of the incredible deluge of 1975 rack packs and 1983 topps rack packs with incredible combinations of cards on top (the same seller bruin... on ebay has put for auction 4 1983 topps racks with Gwynn/Boggs top and three others with Sandberg/Gwynn on top with the disclaimer "these were my dad's and I don't know much about them) . My collection is open for public viewing at http://thehistorykids.net/packs --- Never had anyone of them graded. Probably some are fake. I thought they were all real when I bought them (and hope they all are), but it is clear now that some people can reproduce them perfectly. I have bought every one of them over the past seven or eight years on ebay.
3.) I stay away from folks like Elsipep, Bruin.... etc. who have seemingly endless supplies of rare cellos and racks with stars on top. ebay feedback IS NOT a reliable indicator whatsoever. The truth is these are very rare items. Also don't buy graded items and these present a false sense of authenticity.
<< <i>Thanks everyone for welcoming into the forum. A couple of people have asked about my experiences with the ebay dealer Elsipep, and although I have no intention of disparaging anyone or any dealer here on this forum, I will relay one experience I had with him which led me to leave him negative feedback on ebay:
A couple of years ago, he auctioned off a 1983 fleer rack pack that had Wade Boggs and Tony Gwynn showing on the front. I won the auction, paid him immediately and thought he would send the rack promptly. Two or so days later, he refunded my money and reported to ebay that the pack was damaged in handling. In thinking to myself how someone could have damaged a 1983 fleer pack when packaging it up, I came to the conclusion that he didn't want ME to buy it. This particular dealer subsequently banned me from all of his auctions. My guess is that he knew I could tell a fake pack from a real pack and he was hesitant in sending me the fake. I left him negative feedback. Confirming my suspicions, after the 90 day period where I could no longer submit any formal complaints, and at the time, when images would be deleted from ebay's database, the very same rack pack came up for auction from him again. So, it really wasn't damaged in "handling," he was hesitant to sell it to me. This combined with his seemingly endless supply of unbelievable unopened material including star racks and cellos from every year imaginable has led me to believe he sells inauthentic stuff.
This is only my opinion based on my limited experiences with him. I have never actually received unopened material from him. It is very likely he sells legitimate stuff as well, I guess. I will remove the line on my page that mentions him, as I never intended this topic to be brought up here.
Thanks, Greg >>
You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off that old Lone Ranger
And you don't mess around with GREG!!!!!!!!!!!!