Secure Plus a Requirement for Pre 1955 World Coins

mnemtsas2

PCGS are going to require secure plus grading for pre 1955 world coins as of November 15. Your thoughts? Mine is that this is a way of both countering counterfeits and at the same time reducing their very long queue on world coins and maintaining their revenue. Price for an Economy coin going from $18 to $25 is a fairly hefty price rise and will no doubt stop some submissions.

wybrit

Agreed. I see that I'm going to have to make my last submission for 2011 ASAP.

JCMhouston

It just means I won't bother sending any coins to them. It seems a strange business plan, the service currently doesn't work very well, so we'll price ourselves up until submissions drop appropriately. I'm general manager for the Americas region for an engineering company and have taught at UHD in the School of Business for several years, so I know a little bit about business. You could dress it up any way you want, claim it's to stop counterfeiting etc, but this seems to be How to Alienate Customers 101.

Although many of the coins I submit don't fit in to the economy service some of them do, and I can't see a 40% price increase getting paid by me. I'd rather buy more coins with the money. I'm a small fish though, I probably average submitting somewhere between 15-20 coins per year.

wybrit

So that leads me to a question (I aven't got time to read the fine print right now): how does this affect the "free submissions" for world coins (registry and membership)??

mudskippie

From $18 to $25 is not much, but I would rather use NGC for $19. It's nice knowing you PCGS!

coinkat

I am not sure I understand the thought behind this decision

JCMhouston

<< <i>From $18 to $25 is not much >>



That's 38%, it's too much of an increase for me. No one is giving me a 38% pay raise this year.

MrEureka

Your thoughts? Mine is that this is a way of both countering counterfeits and at the same time reducing their very long queue on world coins and maintaining their revenue.

I think it's more likely that this is an experiment. If world coin submissions don't drop much in response to the new policy, US coins will be next.

coinpictures

Ready? Aim at foot. FIRE!

Talk about dain bramaged. NGC's gotta be loving this move by PCGS. It just ensures NGC an even greater portion of the market for certifying non-U.S. coins.

Has there been any kind of press release as to why Secure Plus is required? What's the point for world coins as opposed to U.S., or as MrEureka speculates, they want to see how it goes over on a test market (gotta love being viewed as a "test market" by any company) rather than slaughtering their cash cow right off the bat?

IloiloKano

<< <i>I aven't got time to read the fine print right now >>

So wybrit, I realize Brits sometimes drop the H when speaking, but are they now dropping them when writing as well?

wybrit

The 1955 date is quite arbitrary - British coinage is pretty much "modern" starting around 1927 or 1937, depending on how you look at it.

I don't get how a 1955 farthing escapes the Secure Plus requirement, but the equally common 1937-1954 farthings do not?

I realize Brits sometimes drop the H when speaking, but are they now dropping them when writing as well?

HP laptop - lousy keyboard.

7Jaguars

You know the last time I dropped ten coins off at the PCGS Baltimore booth it was about $338 for them including insurance - that is crazy money for what it is. I will leave out the part about grading opinions because I am taking a couple back next trip.

I would hope this idea is not yet completely worked out and there is room for rethought as I am in complete agreement with the opinions that this is not only a big raise but that it will not solve turnaround times either. Just a hunch though....

lordmarcovan

That's pretty lame.

Hyperion

it's a shame they can't increase the bandwidth they obviously need in the grading room without overpricing.


IMHO, in the "world" really care about US based TPG companies in general anyway... besides just the US peeps. maybe. It just makes PCGS less of a player for world. NGC could probably make more inroads due to the policy change....

lordmarcovan

<< <i>NGC could probably make more inroads due to the policy change.... >>





<< <i>Your thoughts? Mine is that this is a way of both countering counterfeits and at the same time reducing their very long queue on world coins and maintaining their revenue. Price for an Economy coin going from $18 to $25 is a fairly hefty price rise and will no doubt stop some submissions. >>



Yes, I think it probably makes sense from where they're sitting. But it's certainly gonna cause the low-budget Darkside types like yours truly to reconsider their submissions.

And I just re-upped my Platinum membership. Guess I'd better get a submission in soon.

If NGC would offer a photography option comparable to TrueView (with GOOD pictures of the coin BEFORE slabbing it), I'd probably reconsider my planned move over to PCGS for my Darkside submissions. After all, I already use NGC for my ancients. But NGC's cheaper "Internet Imaged" ($3/coin) photography is useless, and not even worth that low price.

icsoccer

<< <i>< NGC could probably make more inroads due to the policy change.... >> >>

TwoKopeiki

<< <i>If NGC would offer a photography option comparable to TrueView (with GOOD pictures of the coin BEFORE slabbing it), I'd probably reconsider my planned move over to PCGS for my Darkside submissions. >>

SereneDude

<< <i>The 1955 date is quite arbitrary - British coinage is pretty much "modern" starting around 1927 or 1937, depending on how you look at it. >>


I collect Canadian coins and I'd say the modern era there began in 1937 with George VI.
All the coins (except the dollar) had the reverses updated.

krueger

Isn't 1955 the cutoff date for the chinese where they don't care about counterfeits of anything older,
but care if its beyond this date? Correct me if i have the date wrong.

Krueger

krueger

For U.S. philippines I have received more resonable grades submitting as world coins then as a U.S. coins.
But that is my opinion. Maybe their world coin grading consultants are more familiar with this series.

Krueger

weresteve

Well ... I think the other shoe just dropped.

Looks like I had better round up the last few items so I can get my last submission in for 2011 as this bit of stupidity may wind up being long term.

wybrit

If it weeds out common junk like this from being certified, great. Of course, I thought $22 per coin (which includes the $8 handling and postage fees back and forth for a batch of 16, for those of you who tend to be exacting) would be deterrent enough. I have seen a lot of this kind of stuff on ebay lately, though.

ajaan

<< <i>If it weeds out common junk like this from being certified, great. >>


Unless PCGS is currently losing money grading coins, I would think they would love grading common junk like that. What, it takes 2 seconds to determine that coin has damage? Will raising the price mean PCGS will grade fewer coins and make less money? Only time will tell. Or perhaps PCGS just wants to get out of the World coin grading business and this is a way of doing it without coming straight out and cancelling the service.

JCMhouston

They probably are counting on enough people who only use PCGS to keep the volumes up. Over on the US forums there are people sending in things like 1996 proof sets for secure plus grading, really????????

coinnuttius

I could not quite make up my mind about paying the grading fees for 3 dozen world gold coins... problem solved. Flips are easier to store anyways.

7Jaguars

I really would not want PCGS to write this off as a "sour grapes" because these are legitimate concerns.

wybrit

All this discussion leads to another question: what about crossovers? You can not cross over into a Secure Plus holder, which implies that you will have to crack out...

WWW

This is a bad business plan and reminiscent of the recent Netflix/Qwikster debacle. To Netflix's credit, they did finally realize the error of their ways. Will PCGS?

coinkat

I honestly can see and understand the need for Secure Plus for China, British Trade Dollars and even Pillar Dollars as well as some other series. I do not see the need for Secure Plus for more common twentieth century series - even in high grade.

A friendly suggestion might be to see this go in a slightly different direction- How about a plan to encourage the World Registry?

The idea would be to offer a discount to CU members and/or those that start a registry set- this would be limited to 20th century sets -or those that have a slight overlap- like the various French series that were introduced in 1898. Limit this to series such as GB farthings, 1/2d, and 1d and possibly some select others such as the Mexican Peso 1920-1945. I just have my doubts that there will be submissions for these types of coins at 25.00. It makes sense - if the grading fee for select sets with limited values were lower- perhaps 15.00. I would suspect that might spark greater interest and more submissions.

If some hybrid plan was introduced as noted above, maybe part of the plan could include a Secure Plus requirement at 25.00 with an earlier date- perhaps 1901 or an earlier date. At the moment, I am having a problem with what the earlier date might be-

We should try to be part of the solution-

wybrit

Agree with you Coinkat.

As soon as the problem is fully defined (including the undesirable effects) - and I think it just about is, solutions come up next.

Question: where do we go to voice these concerns in a somewhat organized manner?

Hyperion

<< <i>This is a bad business plan and reminiscent of the recent Netflix/Qwikster debacle. To Netflix's credit, they did finally realize the error of their ways. Will PCGS? >>



dont bet on it, for every Netflix there's an HP out there that NEVER learns.

coinkat

The problem is the perception that Secure Plus does not add value to most twentieth century World Coins- some exceptions were previously noted- How many will submit a red 1948 GB 1d or even a red 1928 under a Secure Plus submission?

The goal should be to add value- and the added value really begins earlier than 1955 and likely even earlier than 1901

The goal should also be to broaden the appeal of World Coins- the Registry could do that if it had alittle encouragement.

How do we voice concerns?

If more ideas are shared here and we develop a set of ideas as part of an overall plan that seems to have support, the plan might be worthy of presenting as a suggestion

Marine1

NGC already has a near monopoly of high dollar world coins in their holders, being that PCGS won't guarantee anything above a certain threshold ($10,000 from what i recall). This means that NGC will have their near monopoly at the top, and now have a much bigger slice of the newer and lower dollar coins too.

Looks like a Netflix move on the part of PCGS

Walter

How will this affect bulk orders? Will you still be able to send pre-55 coins in bulk orders?

cyclonus11

This is a pretty disappointing decision. I'm glad I got my latest submission in when I did. Unfortunately this will prevent me from working towards completing a few sets in PCGS slabs as most of the items I collect are not worth a $45 grading fee.

coinkat

Would the grading fee be 25.00 or 45.00?

I was thinking 25.00.

wybrit

The grading fee would be $25 (vs $18) for economy but $45 for standard (vs $30).

cyclonus11

Ok, so they're opening up Secure Plus to Economy and Modern submissions. I should click on links more often.

SYRACUSIAN

Of all the answers that I just read, thanks to ajaan's link to this in a new thread that raised the issue, (I've missed it the first time) only MrEureka's makes sense to me.

That, and the possibility to try to bring PCGS US and PCGS Paris fees to similar levels.

Besides, ,they can hedge whatever drop in World submissions in the US, by their ever increasing number of World submissions in Paris.


So, I wouldn't be so worried about US coins yet, Andy.

weresteve

Whatever the motivations are for the decision to require Secure Plus on world coins prior to 1955, it will definitely have an impact on my any future decisions regarding my submissions.

Personally, I was considering branching out and doing some additional Farthing sets beyond what I already have up and as such had started working on acquiring a few pieces as time and money permits. Now, with the price hike I will have to give thought as to if it would be worth it to continue with the 20th century pieces I have been acquiring through PCGS, or if it would be warranted to go across the street ...

At any rate, I got in my last planned world submission for the year this past week, so I have time to mull over the situation ...

coinkat

There was another reasonable alternative suggested which seems to make sense-

weresteve

While I thought some of the suggestions were worthwhile ... what is the likelihood that PCGS will actually listen to the average collector who cannot afford to send mass quantities of coins to them and whose loss of business would have little to no impact on their bottom line?

Besides, NGC has some services that PCGS does not provide and which I like very much ... so at least for now a part of my business is already going across the street.

If and when this whole kerfuffle about PCGS' Secure Plus requirement is decided ... at that point I will see what portion of my submissions remains with PCGS and what remains with NGC.

Steve

DIMEMAN

Does anybody out here think there is anything that can be done about this. If enough members complained to PCGS would it help.

I just don't see the need for secure plus on a canadian dime in AU worth $15 costing $25 to holder.

It's just not right............$18 is actually too much. There should be another lower fee for inexpensive coins under $100 or so.

weresteve

There are times when it seems like the complaint department at PCGS is nothing more than the nearest trash can when it comes to certain types of complaints.

For now, I would say that it is certainly worth a try as far as raising a big stink with them to see what happens, tho' in the long run I would suspect that the Secure Plus requirement will stay.

marcmoish

It is now what 3 months past this thread, and wondering minds are wondering...

Is this a permanent move?

Have they felt any slowdown in U.S. submissions?

Did NGC's new soon to be policy of eliminating PCGS from the Registry sets make any difference in all of this? I would think PCGS has more to gain now post that announcement - another reason why they might not want to revert to the way it was.

mudskippie

<< <i>Is this a permanent move? >>



Yeah, unfortunately, it's intended to be a permanent move. But it's their policy, they can change it.



<< <i>Have they felt any slowdown in U.S. submissions? >>



That's hard to tell, but a slowdown is very likely. So far, I haven't seen mass offerings of SP coins on eBay and in Dealer's inventory. We need another 3 months or so to see the end result.



<< <i>Did NGC's new soon to be policy of eliminating PCGS from the Registry sets make any difference in all of this? >>


I think NGC's new policy is well played. They sure know how to capitalize when oppotunity knocks.

candy2012mustang

The one thing i like about secure plus is the "genuine" holder without the details grade (even though details grade is an option). Mainly when I have a rare foreign coin that Is valuable even when damaged - and I want authenticated. I always thought that NGC Under details grades - giving XF details for sold AU details coins and so on.

I alwasy thought that the "genuine" holder looked a lot better than Vf details: scratched/cleaned. But thats just me...

-Kev

DoubleEagle59

I don't like the decision for obvious reasons.

I had about 20 Canadian coins I was thinking of sending in but not anymore.

marcmoish

This does suck - didn't realize how it can effect me either.

In my case I wanted to crossover a few pieces from NGC to PCGS - now I need to crack them out??...unless I'm reading something

wrong....which is something I truly am not comfortable with doing.

1960NYGiants

The change is permanent - I just received new submission forms with the changed pricing on them.

Is it affecting submissions - probably not as the completion times are climbing again.

The NGC change will have very minor impact IMHO - except those of us putting high end Registry Sets together.

Edit to add: it has affected what I choose to submit. It's no longer cost effective to certify pretty coins with cat values less than $200 because more than 10% of the value is in the holder.