This is how it appears, after re-reading the PM exchange:
If in fact his Friday offer of $365 did not get to you, due to technical reasons, until Monday, it stands to reason your "counter" of $370 shipped did not get back to him until later on Monday. That's three days after his offer (according to him). Not hearing from you in the interim he probably bought elsewhere. In fairness to you he subsequently agreed to complete the transaction with you if administrator confirmed there was no delay problems with PM offer he sent.
If this is correct maybe the other party will join in and confirm so.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
OK this is great to read and now I will explain it WITHOUT trying to read though all of his PM's once again.
Yes, I did make an offer however like I said it was MADE ON FRIDAY NOT YESTERDAY. The seller made a demand and asked or told me if I wanted the silver or not. I sent a reply because it was the RIGHT thing to do. Yes it was 5.00 higher but felt a simple no thank you because it was not taken care of on Friday like I was hoping so I moved forward and purchased from another source. By the way Mr. Metalsman...your assumption is just that! And assumption! No I did not buy the silver off the BST so once again you are WRONG! IT SEEMS EVERYTIME YOU TRY AND ASSUME ANYTHING you dig a hole for yourself. I sent you two snap shots of the messages I sent to the moderator in hopes he/they could identify the problem I’m having in hopes it won’t happen again. I have taken the necessary steps to ensure my errors during my PMing will not interfere with the buying and selling capabilities. I explained to you if there were no technical difficulties then I would honor my offer. I see no reason why you need to bully anyone into a sale when in fact (sense we are getting to the bone in this). I should have just stated your offer was higher than I wanted to pay and be done with it. Yes I noticed it was higher than my offer but that was not the reason for the nonpayment as I’ve told you 4 times! Instead I chose to tell you the "why's" and provide you with enough information for you to check out the truth if you choose to do so. I have never and will never back out of a firm commitment but I will never be bullied into buying just because you need to dump your silver for one reason or another. If you think it's because silver dropped from Monday until today...check the price of silver. Looks like it went up, not down to me. Humm.
By the way. Doesn't look like you got all the support you were looking for. maybe you were not so right in this afterall? or it could be we both could have handled it differently? But I see you would never admit to that.
This whole thread is just one more reason why PCGS should eliminate the BST forum. Eventually, Uncle Sam will probably force PCGS to do so anyway... to many unregulated and undocumented transactions w/o Uncle "getting his share" of the profits.
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
I read it as the buyer wanted it for $365 total. Whenever I make an offer I always put the word shipped into it. Ex. "would you take $365 for the JM bar shipped?"
"If you hit a midget on the head with a stick, he turns into 40 gold coins." - Patty Oswalt
OK, let me be one of the few who see how Metalsman would believe the offer of $365 was for the bar only, not for shipping. Of course, there's a lot of ambiguity (not good) in the communication flow, but the buyer states:
Fist PM from buyer. Date Posted: Oct/10/2011 9:59 AM If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one. I see they are going on ebay between 345 -380 inc shipping. If you can swing it I will send payment ASAP.
Nowhere here do I read between the lines to assume the buyer expects to have the bar for $365 shipped; he merely notes that on ebay they are going for $345-380 shipped (probably something to do with ebay's practices encouraging sellers to give free shipping, for whatever reason). I do not see why most everyone here seems to believe the buyer expects an out-the-door prices of $365 shipped. If Metalsman stated that the price in his BST ad was without shipping (I haven't seen the ad), then why would the buyer be seen here as expecting shipping to be thrown in for free? I don't see that, but rather a comparison to ebay's offerings. I see acceptance of the $365 price for the bar, and thus a contract being established.
This is pretty much a moot point, but I wanted to weigh in on the $365 + $5 shipping price which I see as completely reasonable for the buyer to have agreed to, thus making for a firm offer and acceptance - in other words, a contract. I'm not saying there's not a lot of ambiguity, but a case can be made for there having been a contract made.
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
It was listed at $365 plus $5. Why would potential buyer send PM "If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one" if he was willing to pay full price?
That issue, plus the potential buyer's claim that his PM was technically delayed for three days getting to the seller are the jist of it.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>It was listed at $365 plus $5. Why would potential buyer send PM "If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one" if he was willing to pay full price? >>
that alone is a good clincher.
very first PM was "IF you will take $365"
eh.
that wasn't a done deal @ $365 + $5.
even with what other excuses he is saying the very first PM that you posted proves it rather conclusively. $365, ok? is not $365 + $5. This wasn't a deal, the rest of the discussion is just "fog of war."
<< <i>It was listed at $365 plus $5. Why would potential buyer send PM "If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one" if he was willing to pay full price?
That issue, plus the potential buyer's claim that his PM was technically delayed for three days getting to the seller are the jist of it. >>
Maybe because $365 was such a screaming bargain that he had to pinch himself and reaffirm the low price? But I agree there are other issues involved here and the whole issue is ambiguous. Nonetheless, I can see how the seller could have believed the seller's confirmation of the order at $365 (plus $5 shipping) since the buyer didn't specifically mention shipping was to be included in the deal (it was understood he was agreeing to additional shipping charges by accepting the terms of the initial ad of $365 + shipping).
.....GOD
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
Have the "technical issues" been determined to be legit? That might shed a little light on what may or may not have been going on. I haven't had any, although tizofthe has said to me within the last 10 days that he was having problems. To be very honest, I wrote it off as being a way to manipulate price over a weekend, which is when it happened with me also 2 weekends ago. But in this case, it went up over the weekend. I have done flawless business with both the buyer and the seller here so I am not biased either way, but claiming to have techincal issues to "lock in" a deal over the weekend 2 weekends in a row is well, shifty imo. That's why I'd like to know if the technical issues that are being claimed that caused this to turn out as it has are legit.
Also, as I said earlier in this thread, maybe saying this is the delivered price vs. saying the item is $XXX + $X shipping is a more clear way of communicating the delivered price, because let's be honest, we've all misread a thing or two in our lives. Stating it so there can be no doubt just makes it easier on both parties. I know Metalsman is saying that is not what really is the issue (price), but just thought it is worth repeating for all of us to have flawless transactions with each other.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
<< <i>It was listed at $365 plus $5. Why would potential buyer send PM "If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one" if he was willing to pay full price? >>
that alone is a good clincher.
very first PM was "IF you will take $365"
eh.
that wasn't a done deal @ $365 + $5.
even with what other excuses he is saying the very first PM that you posted proves it rather conclusively. $365, ok? is not $365 + $5. This wasn't a deal, the rest of the discussion is just "fog of war." >>
<< <i>I see where he said he'd take one for $365, but when you countered for $370 I don't see where he accepted. >>
I get that impression too. He offered 365 and from using the ebay example, intended it to mean shipping included. Seems that you countered with your BST price of 370 shipped. I realize the intent of each party is not easy to ascertain from the verbiage, but that's may take on it. I conclude no price was agreed upon, there was just offer and counter offer. >>
I agree this is not clear and you he never acepted 370. I would let it go. Imho
PEACE! This is the first day of the rest of your life.
<< <i>There was no committment. Based on the PMs, he never agreed to your price, you never agreed to his offer. Everything else is irrelevent.
(Full disclosure: I have sold, with no problems, to this buyer) >>
Yup. Judge Judy would see it the same way. She'd stop reading after the first 2 communications where there was clearly no agreement on price. When that happens to me I get back to the guy right away and ask if they want it or not. Unless I get a reply I just assume that's a nay....and I move on. Happens all the time. No official contract or agreement for $370 was ever in force regardless of all the minutia that has been piled on to shift attention elsewhere. I really don't care what the buyer's "intentions" were, I'm just looking at the facts of whether there was an agreement up front. There clearly wasn't. The $5 diff is irrelevant It might as well have been $315 or $420. In either case the parties did not agree to any price. Another BST difference of opinion thread that should never have been.
When it comes to PM's, generally it's 24 hrs to consumate a deal or it's dead due to the rapid potential for prices to change. On a weekend deal things go poof by the time overseas markets open up Sunday night. At that point it's time to renegotiate price as more than likely either seller or buyer is looking at a worse deal than before. Buyers and sellers of bullion as a rule don't keep each other waiting for a reply for >24hrs.
<< <i>I think most here are not seeing the issue is NOT over price? $5. makes no difference to me. I do know more about the transaction and buyer in relation to this issue and previous history as well. This has been confirmed by other users here that will be un-named by me.. Everyone here is free to their own opinon and conduct business with me or this other person as you wish! >>
<< <i>I think most here are not seeing the issue is NOT over price? $5. makes no difference to me. I do know more about the transaction and buyer in relation to this issue and previous history as well. This has been confirmed by other users here that will be un-named by me.. Everyone here is free to their own opinon and conduct business with me or this other person as you wish! >>
I believe the arguement you want to make that includes what you're pointing out is that: there may have been no meeting of the mind up front, but after getting back to him you quickly found he had already moved on by purchasing from someone else cheaper. When confronted, the excuse was that the original request was said to be sent "on Friday" and there was a much longer delay than exhibited by the PM dates and times.
However, I will point out your posts up until earlier this evening indictated you thought you had a deal from the start. It is only recently that you are saying "we were only $5 apart, and who cares about $5" Well, you cared enough about $5 to mention that in your initial reply to him, and he cared enough about it to say "IF $265".
Still, you still feel it was a fast move along before your $270 reply (~5 hours). Unfortunately, you never really had a deal from the get go. So, even if it was 10 minutes, he bought it somewhere cheaper and you didn't have a deal on the price up front, so he lucked out and adverted the "required to honor buy offer."
The question out there to the group is:
is 5 hours long enough to wait before searching out a cheaper source? (assuming the OP is right and it was sent at the time in the PM)
<< <i>No I accepted his offer of $365. plus $5. as stated in the listing. Where do you see the seller denying that? Do you not see where he claims he did not follow thru due to technical issues? Seems like pretty easy reading to even me.. >>
No, you accepted his offer of $365 for the bar. Technically you are correct. He committed to buy the silver from you at $365. How you get it to him is up to you per his offer. He did not offer to pay shipping. That was an assumption on your part.
edited almost immediately after I posted this : Hopefully cooler head prevail. Nobody needs the pub of a $5 difference (and that is what it comes down to. The buyer is still willing at $365, the seller at $370, at least as of last post concerning price, which negates all the he said, he said bs) leading to a 5 page thread and an outing (which usually outs both). Think about it guys, it's a footlong at Subway. Take a 6 incher and call it even and go home.
<< <i>However, I will point out your posts up until earlier this evening indictated you thought you had a deal from the start. It is only recently that you are saying "we were only $5 apart, and who cares about $5" Well, you cared enough about $5 to mention that in your initial reply to him, and he cared enough about it to say "IF $265".
No this is not what I thought. The buyer stated he would take it...period. His excuse for not taking it is technical issues not price or lack of aggrement ove it or terms. He simply stated in his reply to me that he had bought something else. Other than that who here would make an offer for an item assuming you where changing the terms and/or conditions as well unless you state that in your offfer? Conditions as in method of payment or shipping. And as a seller why would not assume other than an offer of price the selling conditions including method of payment and cost of shipping as stated would not be the same as posted when not dictated as part of the offer. I realize that there is NO binding deals on these boards as they are used. NO deal done here as they are would stand up in court period. I'd like to see if anyone can state that they have gone to court and prevailed with a deal done on these boards. Its not about the price or terms. Its about the buyer backing out of an "I'll take it" and not replying to PM's. Try buying bullion that way over a phone call form any B&M and see how long you can buy there. >>
no clear meeting of the minds on price = no agreement and no contract.
sorry.
yet another overly dramatic thread on a transaction that fell through.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
Metalsman, you should get your undies out of the knot they must be in over this.
As others have stated, it was an "IF you will take...." and mentions that ebay includes shipping on their prices that are quoted. That can easily be read as "IF you take this amount then that is what I will pay"....not "IF you will take this amount and then add on shipping" if that was already your quoted price. It is called "bargaining" or "negotiating". If you don't want to do that, put FIRM in your BST.
Also, you have been on the boards long enough, but must not be that active to realize that posting of PMs is a BIG board no-no. Totally uncool...particularly in something like this where you weren't ripped off......you are all in an uproar over $5 (even though you state you aren't).
This is a classic "why isn't someone on the forum and replying immediately to all PMs" type of thing. People have lives....if someone sent an offer for "IF YOU WILL TAKE" but you don't get back to them for a bit, things change. I would have handled it differently on each side, but it is what it is.
Also, take a look at what you posted for some of the PMs....
<< <i>Fist PM from buyer. Date Posted: Oct/10/2011 9:59 AM If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one. I see they are going on ebay between 345 -380 inc shipping. If you can swing it I will send payment ASAP.
Thanks again
My reply. Date Posted: Oct/10/2011 3:06 PM Its $370. shipped.1 x 10 JM bar. USPS money order or Paypal gift @ ............. Price good tonight subject to withdraw as they are offered on another board.
No response so I follow-up. Date Posted: Oct/11/2011 8:23 AM Do you still want this bar or not? I did not receive any payment in my paypal. Thanks for your reply, Gary
>>
Do you notice that you are stating "price is good tonight subject to withdraw as they are offered on another board" and then you are asking "do you still want this bar or not"????
Obviously, YOU don't consider it a done-deal at that point as they are "subject to withdraw" and offered on another board.
The way you have handled this does not make me someone who would to deal with you as you refuse to see what others see, and state, and are dead set in your way and attack. Would be better if you had just let it drop as "no foul, no harm"
<< <i>This is the poster child case of why I say, $XXX delivered when I am selling on the BST. I really feel that would've eliminated something like this even happening. Just my thoughts. >>
<< <i>Okay. I've prove its not about price. I'll offer the same bar to the buyer for $360 shipped at my cost period. Paypal gift or paypal + 2.9% or money order.. I'll let you all know if he walks his talk now. Enough said..... metalsman.. >>
He already purchased since he didn't hear from you over the weekend. Don't expect him to buy now just to prove a point.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
i was wondering if price was only good til the 10th, y would u ask on the 11th if he still wanted it?
and it is blatantly obvious there is no agreement on price... the seller just assumed (because he was adding shipping in his listing), to add it himself to buyer's offer
y would the buyer ask for a price of 365 when seller had it listed for 365?
seller blinded and might be a good idea to take the high road and admit the u might be the one mistaken in this mishap...
either ways potential buyer never responded by the end of the 10th...
<< <i>Again it was not about price. I do see where the buyer says he did not respond to my pm's due to his claim of technical problems. This equals no sale here on these boards. As I stated last night I woud accept the buyers offer of $365. shipped and better it and accept $360. shipped. Buyer has not commited to purchase at that price so far. Offer will be vailid thru today. Thanks to all for their OPINIONS both ways. >>
1st PM, he offered a price and asked IF you would take it. Your PM, you countered with a different price (you included shipping) and told him it was a limited time offer as you had them for sale.
You never got a confirmation from him. At that point, you either get a confirmation or it isn't. Nowhere did he say he accepted your counter offer.
You are now trying to bully him into accepting your item, when he has told you he isn't buying at this time as he bought elsewhere (since there was no meeting of the minds on the deal and you had a timed offer to him). Since you had set that timed offer, why not sell to one of the many folks who must be clamoring to buy from you? Why try to bully him into buying your item?
If I were him, even if you dropped it to spot price, I wouldn't buy from you after what you have done. And, if someone wanted to get into it, I would think some of your wordings/actions in this thread would likely violate some of the rules that DW has set.......
Again, not sure why you feel the need to harass him based on your overriding desire to sell to him instead of just dropping it....you lost nothing and I believe silver is up since you first posted, right?
Again it was not about price. I do see where the buyer says he did not respond to my pm's due to his claim of technical problems. This equals no sale here on these boards. As I stated last night I woud accept the buyers offer of $365. shipped and better it and accept $360. shipped. Buyer has not commited to purchase at that price so far. Offer will be vailid thru today. Thanks to all for their OPINIONS both ways
Maybe he's having more of those darn technical issues and is unable to repsond to you now, even during the week this time?
I'm sorry, it was just out there and too easy lol...I'm sorry.
To forgive is to free a prisoner, and to discover that prisoner was you.
Sorry, I should have used "interpret" instead of "see" as I did above. I "interpreted" his use of $365 as a delivered price in the original post.
he's not disagreeing on the $370.
Maybe I'm slow, but I do not see him ever agreeing to it.
Wow, I just noticed you changed the title. When did that happen? >>
When I decided to let eveyone be aware based on my opinion! >>
I think your opinion is wrong. The buyer offered $365, you countered with $370 which was your original $365 plus $5 shipping. By your PM's, it appears that you understood that his offer of $365 was shipping included and your $370 was shipping included.
<< <i>Metalsman, you should get your undies out of the knot they must be in over this.
As others have stated, it was an "IF you will take...." and mentions that ebay includes shipping on their prices that are quoted. That can easily be read as "IF you take this amount then that is what I will pay"....not "IF you will take this amount and then add on shipping" if that was already your quoted price. It is called "bargaining" or "negotiating". If you don't want to do that, put FIRM in your BST.
Also, you have been on the boards long enough, but must not be that active to realize that posting of PMs is a BIG board no-no. Totally uncool...particularly in something like this where you weren't ripped off......you are all in an uproar over $5 (even though you state you aren't).
This is a classic "why isn't someone on the forum and replying immediately to all PMs" type of thing. People have lives....if someone sent an offer for "IF YOU WILL TAKE" but you don't get back to them for a bit, things change. I would have handled it differently on each side, but it is what it is.
Also, take a look at what you posted for some of the PMs....
<< <i>Fist PM from buyer. Date Posted: Oct/10/2011 9:59 AM If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one. I see they are going on ebay between 345 -380 inc shipping. If you can swing it I will send payment ASAP.
Thanks again
My reply. Date Posted: Oct/10/2011 3:06 PM Its $370. shipped.1 x 10 JM bar. USPS money order or Paypal gift @ ............. Price good tonight subject to withdraw as they are offered on another board.
No response so I follow-up. Date Posted: Oct/11/2011 8:23 AM Do you still want this bar or not? I did not receive any payment in my paypal. Thanks for your reply, Gary
>>
Do you notice that you are stating "price is good tonight subject to withdraw as they are offered on another board" and then you are asking "do you still want this bar or not"????
Obviously, YOU don't consider it a done-deal at that point as they are "subject to withdraw" and offered on another board.
The way you have handled this does not make me someone who would to deal with you as you refuse to see what others see, and state, and are dead set in your way and attack. Would be better if you had just let it drop as "no foul, no harm" >>
I agree completely. The offer was placed in the seller's hands and he opted to counteroffer. By his PM's, it is obvious that the seller considered this a conditional offer. Like you said, he even has conditions in his counteroffer. If I was the buyer, I would have been floored to find out that the OP thinks that I agreed to make the purchase. While the OP keeps saying that this isn't about price, I don't think price really matters. But, because of price, there was never an agreement.
Comments
If in fact his Friday offer of $365 did not get to you, due to technical reasons, until Monday, it stands to reason your "counter" of $370 shipped did not get back to him until later on Monday. That's three days after his offer (according to him). Not hearing from you in the interim he probably bought elsewhere. In fairness to you he subsequently agreed to complete the transaction with you if administrator confirmed there was no delay problems with PM offer he sent.
If this is correct maybe the other party will join in and confirm so.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Yes, I did make an offer however like I said it was MADE ON FRIDAY NOT YESTERDAY. The seller made a demand and asked or told me if I wanted the silver or not. I sent a reply because it was the RIGHT thing to do. Yes it was 5.00 higher but felt a simple no thank you because it was not taken care of on Friday like I was hoping so I moved forward and purchased from another source.
By the way Mr. Metalsman...your assumption is just that! And assumption! No I did not buy the silver off the BST so once again you are WRONG! IT SEEMS EVERYTIME YOU TRY AND ASSUME ANYTHING you dig a hole for yourself.
I sent you two snap shots of the messages I sent to the moderator in hopes he/they could identify the problem I’m having in hopes it won’t happen again. I have taken the necessary steps to ensure my errors during my PMing will not interfere with the buying and selling capabilities.
I explained to you if there were no technical difficulties then I would honor my offer.
I see no reason why you need to bully anyone into a sale when in fact (sense we are getting to the bone in this). I should have just stated your offer was higher than I wanted to pay and be done with it. Yes I noticed it was higher than my offer but that was not the reason for the nonpayment as I’ve told you 4 times!
Instead I chose to tell you the "why's" and provide you with enough information for you to check out the truth if you choose to do so.
I have never and will never back out of a firm commitment but I will never be bullied into buying just because you need to dump your silver for one reason or another. If you think it's because silver dropped from Monday until today...check the price of silver. Looks like it went up, not down to me. Humm.
By the way. Doesn't look like you got all the support you were looking for. maybe you were not so right in this afterall? or it could be we both could have handled it differently?
But I see you would never admit to that.
wondercoin, duffman,PiecesOfMe, Smittys, LogPotato, Bumanchu, Tydye, segoja, Harry779, FullCameo, Twosidestoeverycoin, jmdm1194, rkfish, drewsef, Chrischampeo, Kaelasdad, Ahrensdad, Dabigkahuna, Barbwire, sebrown, mkman123, Gerard
Agreed. No commitment was made to buy offer was $365 SHIPPED.
Sincerely,
Captain Obvious
Loves me some shiny!
Fist PM from buyer.
Date Posted: Oct/10/2011 9:59 AM
If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one. I see they are going on ebay between 345 -380 inc shipping. If you can swing it I will send payment ASAP.
Nowhere here do I read between the lines to assume the buyer expects to have the bar for $365 shipped; he merely notes that on ebay they are going for $345-380 shipped (probably something to do with ebay's practices encouraging sellers to give free shipping, for whatever reason). I do not see why most everyone here seems to believe the buyer expects an out-the-door prices of $365 shipped. If Metalsman stated that the price in his BST ad was without shipping (I haven't seen the ad), then why would the buyer be seen here as expecting shipping to be thrown in for free? I don't see that, but rather a comparison to ebay's offerings. I see acceptance of the $365 price for the bar, and thus a contract being established.
This is pretty much a moot point, but I wanted to weigh in on the $365 + $5 shipping price which I see as completely reasonable for the buyer to have agreed to, thus making for a firm offer and acceptance - in other words, a contract. I'm not saying there's not a lot of ambiguity, but a case can be made for there having been a contract made.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
That issue, plus the potential buyer's claim that his PM was technically delayed for three days getting to the seller are the jist of it.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
that's a lot of thought and typing over a matter of $5
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>It was listed at $365 plus $5. Why would potential buyer send PM "If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one" if he was willing to pay full price? >>
that alone is a good clincher.
very first PM was "IF you will take $365"
eh.
that wasn't a done deal @ $365 + $5.
even with what other excuses he is saying the very first PM that you posted proves it rather conclusively. $365, ok? is not $365 + $5. This wasn't a deal, the rest of the discussion is just "fog of war."
<< <i>It was listed at $365 plus $5. Why would potential buyer send PM "If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one" if he was willing to pay full price?
That issue, plus the potential buyer's claim that his PM was technically delayed for three days getting to the seller are the jist of it. >>
Maybe because $365 was such a screaming bargain that he had to pinch himself and reaffirm the low price?
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
That might shed a little light on what may or may not have been going on. I haven't had any, although tizofthe has said to me within the last 10 days that he was having problems. To be very honest, I wrote it off as being a way to manipulate price over a weekend, which is when it happened with me also 2 weekends ago. But in this case, it went up over the weekend.
I have done flawless business with both the buyer and the seller here so I am not biased either way, but claiming to have techincal issues to "lock in" a deal over the weekend 2 weekends in a row is well, shifty imo.
That's why I'd like to know if the technical issues that are being claimed that caused this to turn out as it has are legit.
Also, as I said earlier in this thread, maybe saying this is the delivered price vs. saying the item is $XXX + $X shipping is a more clear way of communicating the delivered price, because let's be honest, we've all misread a thing or two in our lives. Stating it so there can be no doubt just makes it easier on both parties.
I know Metalsman is saying that is not what really is the issue (price), but just thought it is worth repeating for all of us to have flawless transactions with each other.
<< <i>
<< <i>It was listed at $365 plus $5. Why would potential buyer send PM "If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one" if he was willing to pay full price? >>
that alone is a good clincher.
very first PM was "IF you will take $365"
eh.
that wasn't a done deal @ $365 + $5.
even with what other excuses he is saying the very first PM that you posted proves it rather conclusively. $365, ok? is not $365 + $5. This wasn't a deal, the rest of the discussion is just "fog of war." >>
^This. Spot on.
peacockcoins
<< <i>
<< <i>I see where he said he'd take one for $365, but when you countered for $370 I don't see where he accepted. >>
I get that impression too. He offered 365 and from using the ebay example, intended it to mean shipping included. Seems that you countered with your BST price of 370 shipped. I realize the intent of each party is not easy to ascertain from the verbiage, but that's may take on it. I conclude no price was agreed upon, there was just offer and counter offer. >>
I agree this is not clear and you he never acepted 370. I would let it go. Imho
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
<< <i>There was no committment. Based on the PMs, he never agreed to your price, you never agreed to his offer. Everything else is irrelevent.
(Full disclosure: I have sold, with no problems, to this buyer) >>
Yup. Judge Judy would see it the same way. She'd stop reading after the first 2 communications where there was clearly no agreement on price. When that
happens to me I get back to the guy right away and ask if they want it or not. Unless I get a reply I just assume that's a nay....and I move on. Happens all the
time. No official contract or agreement for $370 was ever in force regardless of all the minutia that has been piled on to shift attention elsewhere. I really don't
care what the buyer's "intentions" were, I'm just looking at the facts of whether there was an agreement up front. There clearly wasn't. The $5 diff is irrelevant
It might as well have been $315 or $420. In either case the parties did not agree to any price. Another BST difference of opinion thread that should never have been.
When it comes to PM's, generally it's 24 hrs to consumate a deal or it's dead due to the rapid potential for prices to change. On a weekend deal things go poof
by the time overseas markets open up Sunday night. At that point it's time to renegotiate price as more than likely either seller or buyer is looking at a worse deal than before.
Buyers and sellers of bullion as a rule don't keep each other waiting for a reply for >24hrs.
roadrunner
<< <i>I think most here are not seeing the issue is NOT over price? $5. makes no difference to me. I do know more about the transaction and buyer in relation to this issue and previous history as well. This has been confirmed by other users here that will be un-named by me.. Everyone here is free to their own opinon and conduct business with me or this other person as you wish! >>
Text
<< <i>I think most here are not seeing the issue is NOT over price? $5. makes no difference to me. I do know more about the transaction and buyer in relation to this issue and previous history as well. This has been confirmed by other users here that will be un-named by me.. Everyone here is free to their own opinon and conduct business with me or this other person as you wish! >>
I believe the arguement you want to make that includes what you're pointing out is that:
there may have been no meeting of the mind up front, but after getting back to him you quickly found he had already moved on by purchasing from someone else cheaper. When confronted, the excuse was that the original request was said to be sent "on Friday" and there was a much longer delay than exhibited by the PM dates and times.
However, I will point out your posts up until earlier this evening indictated you thought you had a deal from the start. It is only recently that you are saying "we were only $5 apart, and who cares about $5" Well, you cared enough about $5 to mention that in your initial reply to him, and he cared enough about it to say "IF $265".
Still, you still feel it was a fast move along before your $270 reply (~5 hours). Unfortunately, you never really had a deal from the get go. So, even if it was 10 minutes, he bought it somewhere cheaper and you didn't have a deal on the price up front, so he lucked out and adverted the "required to honor buy offer."
The question out there to the group is:
is 5 hours long enough to wait before searching out a cheaper source? (assuming the OP is right and it was sent at the time in the PM)
peacockcoins
<< <i>No I accepted his offer of $365. plus $5. as stated in the listing. Where do you see the seller denying that? Do you not see where he claims he did not follow thru due to technical issues? Seems like pretty easy reading to even me.. >>
No, you accepted his offer of $365 for the bar. Technically you are correct. He committed to buy the silver from you at $365. How you get it to him is up to you per his offer. He did not offer to pay shipping. That was an assumption on your part.
edited almost immediately after I posted this : Hopefully cooler head prevail. Nobody needs the pub of a $5 difference (and that is what it comes down to. The buyer is still willing at $365, the seller at $370, at least as of last post concerning price, which negates all the he said, he said bs) leading to a 5 page thread and an outing (which usually outs both). Think about it guys, it's a footlong at Subway. Take a 6 incher and call it even and go home.
And I stopped reading right there. No point in going past that point and into the "war and peace" version of events. Life is too short.
He who knows he has enough is rich.
<< <i>The buyer stated he would take it...period. >>
Quite incorrect.
"IF" was used.
IF $365.
it's very clear in the first PM the guy was haggling over the $5.
<< <i>my goodness!
that's a lot of thought and typing over a matter of $5 >>
+1
<< <i>However, I will point out your posts up until earlier this evening indictated you thought you had a deal from the start. It is only recently that you are saying "we were only $5 apart, and who cares about $5" Well, you cared enough about $5 to mention that in your initial reply to him, and he cared enough about it to say "IF $265".
No this is not what I thought. The buyer stated he would take it...period. His excuse for not taking it is technical issues not price or lack of aggrement ove it or terms. He simply stated in his reply to me that he had bought something else. Other than that who here would make an offer for an item assuming you where changing the terms and/or conditions as well unless you state that in your offfer? Conditions as in method of payment or shipping. And as a seller why would not assume other than an offer of price the selling conditions including method of payment and cost of shipping as stated would not be the same as posted when not dictated as part of the offer. I realize that there is NO binding deals on these boards as they are used. NO deal done here as they are would stand up in court period. I'd like to see if anyone can state that they have gone to court and prevailed with a deal done on these boards. Its not about the price or terms. Its about the buyer backing out of an "I'll take it" and not replying to PM's. Try buying bullion that way over a phone call form any B&M and see how long you can buy there. >>
Lets beat this to death for another couple days
sorry.
yet another overly dramatic thread on a transaction that fell through.
As others have stated, it was an "IF you will take...." and mentions that ebay includes shipping on their prices that are quoted. That can easily be read as "IF you take this amount then that is what I will pay"....not "IF you will take this amount and then add on shipping" if that was already your quoted price. It is called "bargaining" or "negotiating". If you don't want to do that, put FIRM in your BST.
Also, you have been on the boards long enough, but must not be that active to realize that posting of PMs is a BIG board no-no. Totally uncool...particularly in something like this where you weren't ripped off......you are all in an uproar over $5 (even though you state you aren't).
This is a classic "why isn't someone on the forum and replying immediately to all PMs" type of thing. People have lives....if someone sent an offer for "IF YOU WILL TAKE" but you don't get back to them for a bit, things change. I would have handled it differently on each side, but it is what it is.
Also, take a look at what you posted for some of the PMs....
<< <i>Fist PM from buyer.
Date Posted: Oct/10/2011 9:59 AM
If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one. I see they are going on ebay between 345 -380 inc shipping. If you can swing it I will send payment ASAP.
Thanks again
My reply.
Date Posted: Oct/10/2011 3:06 PM
Its $370. shipped.1 x 10 JM bar. USPS money order or Paypal gift @ ............. Price good tonight subject to withdraw as they are offered on another board.
No response so I follow-up.
Date Posted: Oct/11/2011 8:23 AM
Do you still want this bar or not? I did not receive any payment in my paypal. Thanks for your reply, Gary
>>
Do you notice that you are stating "price is good tonight subject to withdraw as they are offered on another board" and then you are asking "do you still want this bar or not"????
Obviously, YOU don't consider it a done-deal at that point as they are "subject to withdraw" and offered on another board.
The way you have handled this does not make me someone who would to deal with you as you refuse to see what others see, and state, and are dead set in your way and attack. Would be better if you had just let it drop as "no foul, no harm"
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>This is the poster child case of why I say, $XXX delivered when I am selling on the BST. I really feel that would've eliminated something like this even happening. Just my thoughts. >>
<< <i>Okay. I've prove its not about price. I'll offer the same bar to the buyer for $360 shipped at my cost period. Paypal gift or paypal + 2.9% or money order.. I'll let you all know if he walks his talk now. Enough said..... metalsman.. >>
He already purchased since he didn't hear from you over the weekend. Don't expect him to buy now just to prove a point.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Proud recipient of two "You Suck" awards
i was wondering if price was only good til the 10th,
y would u ask on the 11th if he still wanted it?
and it is blatantly obvious there is no agreement on price...
the seller just assumed (because he was adding shipping in his listing), to add it himself to buyer's offer
y would the buyer ask for a price of 365 when seller had it listed for 365?
seller blinded and might be a good idea to take the high road and admit the u might be the one mistaken in this mishap...
either ways potential buyer never responded by the end of the 10th...
this is sure a big deal...
one follow up question, if it's not about price, why is it so important to you that this particular buyer buy this particular bar?
it seems to us all a quickie deal that just didn't work out, why not let it go? it's a liquid item, everyone is whole,
the perceived slight of "we had a deal and he broke it" so irritating? what's really bothering you metalsman?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Again it was not about price. I do see where the buyer says he did not respond to my pm's due to his claim of technical problems. This equals no sale here on these boards. As I stated last night I woud accept the buyers offer of $365. shipped and better it and accept $360. shipped. Buyer has not commited to purchase at that price so far. Offer will be vailid thru today. Thanks to all for their OPINIONS both ways.
1st PM, he offered a price and asked IF you would take it.
Your PM, you countered with a different price (you included shipping) and told him it was a limited time offer as you had them for sale.
You never got a confirmation from him. At that point, you either get a confirmation or it isn't.
Nowhere did he say he accepted your counter offer.
You are now trying to bully him into accepting your item, when he has told you he isn't buying at this time as he bought elsewhere (since there was no meeting of the minds on the deal and you had a timed offer to him).
Since you had set that timed offer, why not sell to one of the many folks who must be clamoring to buy from you? Why try to bully him into buying your item?
If I were him, even if you dropped it to spot price, I wouldn't buy from you after what you have done. And, if someone wanted to get into it, I would think some of your wordings/actions in this thread would likely violate some of the rules that DW has set.......
Again, not sure why you feel the need to harass him based on your overriding desire to sell to him instead of just dropping it....you lost nothing and I believe silver is up since you first posted, right?
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>
This. So very this.
AND i'd still do business with both parties down the road.
MANY positive BST Transactions
Maybe he's having more of those darn technical issues and is unable to repsond to you now, even during the week this time?
I'm sorry, it was just out there and too easy lol...I'm sorry.
<< <i>
<< <i>Where do you see $365. "out the door"
Sorry, I should have used "interpret" instead of "see" as I did above. I "interpreted" his use of $365 as a delivered price in the original post.
he's not disagreeing on the $370.
Maybe I'm slow, but I do not see him ever agreeing to it.
Wow, I just noticed you changed the title. When did that happen? >>
When I decided to let eveyone be aware based on my opinion! >>
I think your opinion is wrong. The buyer offered $365, you countered with $370 which was your original $365 plus $5 shipping. By your PM's, it appears that you understood that his offer of $365 was shipping included and your $370 was shipping included.
>
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<< <i>I don't see a meeting of the minds on price. I see an offer of 365 and a counter of 370. >>
This.
<< <i>Metalsman, you should get your undies out of the knot they must be in over this.
As others have stated, it was an "IF you will take...." and mentions that ebay includes shipping on their prices that are quoted. That can easily be read as "IF you take this amount then that is what I will pay"....not "IF you will take this amount and then add on shipping" if that was already your quoted price. It is called "bargaining" or "negotiating". If you don't want to do that, put FIRM in your BST.
Also, you have been on the boards long enough, but must not be that active to realize that posting of PMs is a BIG board no-no. Totally uncool...particularly in something like this where you weren't ripped off......you are all in an uproar over $5 (even though you state you aren't).
This is a classic "why isn't someone on the forum and replying immediately to all PMs" type of thing. People have lives....if someone sent an offer for "IF YOU WILL TAKE" but you don't get back to them for a bit, things change. I would have handled it differently on each side, but it is what it is.
Also, take a look at what you posted for some of the PMs....
<< <i>Fist PM from buyer.
Date Posted: Oct/10/2011 9:59 AM
If you will sell for 365.00 on 10oz JM bar I will take one. I see they are going on ebay between 345 -380 inc shipping. If you can swing it I will send payment ASAP.
Thanks again
My reply.
Date Posted: Oct/10/2011 3:06 PM
Its $370. shipped.1 x 10 JM bar. USPS money order or Paypal gift @ ............. Price good tonight subject to withdraw as they are offered on another board.
No response so I follow-up.
Date Posted: Oct/11/2011 8:23 AM
Do you still want this bar or not? I did not receive any payment in my paypal. Thanks for your reply, Gary
>>
Do you notice that you are stating "price is good tonight subject to withdraw as they are offered on another board" and then you are asking "do you still want this bar or not"????
Obviously, YOU don't consider it a done-deal at that point as they are "subject to withdraw" and offered on another board.
The way you have handled this does not make me someone who would to deal with you as you refuse to see what others see, and state, and are dead set in your way and attack. Would be better if you had just let it drop as "no foul, no harm" >>
I agree completely. The offer was placed in the seller's hands and he opted to counteroffer. By his PM's, it is obvious that the seller considered this a conditional offer. Like you said, he even has conditions in his counteroffer. If I was the buyer, I would have been floored to find out that the OP thinks that I agreed to make the purchase. While the OP keeps saying that this isn't about price, I don't think price really matters. But, because of price, there was never an agreement.
>
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