At this stage of collecting, I am hesitant buying pricey coins unless.....
AnkurJ
Posts: 11,370 ✭✭✭✭
They are stickered. Call me crazy, thats fine. But there are obviously many problem coins that have made it into every TPG holder as problem free. At this stage in collecting, if I am spending a significant amount on a coin, I want it either to be stickered, or sold on the contingency that I will buy it only if it does sticker.
You may say I will miss out on many coins by doing this. However, I do not dismiss non-stickered coins completely, but when dealing with key dates and coins priced over $1k, it can be a little scary. Case in point, I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. It was an excellent AT job that had me fooled, and JA pointed out to me what was wrong.
I know there are many here who are for and many who are against the sticker factory, but what are your thoughts on this? When looking at a high priced coin, do you ever question yourself on missing something if it isn't stickered? Or do you feel you know exactly what is or isnt wrong with a coin? I often think I know, but am humbled by how clueless I am after speaking with JA.
Fire away.
AJ
You may say I will miss out on many coins by doing this. However, I do not dismiss non-stickered coins completely, but when dealing with key dates and coins priced over $1k, it can be a little scary. Case in point, I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. It was an excellent AT job that had me fooled, and JA pointed out to me what was wrong.
I know there are many here who are for and many who are against the sticker factory, but what are your thoughts on this? When looking at a high priced coin, do you ever question yourself on missing something if it isn't stickered? Or do you feel you know exactly what is or isnt wrong with a coin? I often think I know, but am humbled by how clueless I am after speaking with JA.
Fire away.
AJ
All coins kept in bank vaults.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
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<< <i> I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. >>
Interesting that JA can detect AT through the slab when 3 or 4 PCGS graders examined the coin outside of the slab. His business model
is based on raising doubt about the accuracy of his former employers.
When I see a coin, I figure that perhaps, maybe, just maybe, it wasn't sent in. I don't own a coin with a sticker, and the majority of my collection was purchased before CAC existed. I didn't acquire nice coins by relying on any one person to hold my hand through the process; I spent a lot of time getting educated before I ever spent money. I don't mind seeking a second opinion every so often, but if anyone needs a second opinion on everything they purchase, perhaps they shouldn't be making such purchases.
The particular TPG who's board we enjoy has held the best of the standard ... again IMO ... and therefore has probably done the most overall. The other top TPG has done a lot too, but I do not believe they held their original standard nearly as well.
I have a large group of coins that are wonderful, slabbed, and whether they would sticker green, gold or not, makes no difference to me at this time. Some were purchased after the "invention" of the sticker, some before.
When I sell them, someday, I might care. Maybe. But there will probably be some other flavor of the day. It's more probable I will slab the better (and more expensive) raw ones.
Great coins seem to speak for themselves when presented to an appreciative audience, and dogs seem to bark just the same, at least to a knowledgeable audience. The less than knowledgeable, the less than appreciative, the one's who don't study what need sto be learned ... they will never get it.
Again, all my opinion.
And since it's all about opinion, it should probably be noted that so is the grade on the holder, and the sticker assigned.
I think I better use everything (stickers included) to learn everything I can, so I can trust the one opinion I know I can trust the most, no matter which side of the table I'm on ... my own.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
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In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
In my small area of expertise I feel confident enough to buy sans sticker on higher priced items. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
through the line. Just like the grading services. Had I not known the series well, and thought like many would that PCGS liked it, CAC liked, it must be OK. But stman seen something they didn't look close enough at, and the sticker factory agreed they blew it. They removed the sticker where it went from there I don't know.
Guess it's needed to be added
Buy the coin and not the sticker
Wakey Wakey Eggs & Bakey
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
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No grading company is perfect. CAC has proven to be very knowledgeable, John continues to share information that makes me a wiser numismatist.
If the coin has a sticker, I am happy for it, since it has achieved the blessing of one more grader who knows more than I do. If it doesn't I don't alter my normal behavior for evaluating or negotiating for a coin. I'm comfortable with this process with coins in the price range referred to by the OP.
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MS66 AND strong for the grade?
<< <i>Ankur - If you feel you need a third opinion, you should get it. But tell me, when you rely so heavily on other people in making your decisions, does it affect your enjoyment of the hobby? >>
Not at all Andy. What does affect enjoymemt is spending four figs on a coin that turns out to have problems. I do have many coins in my collection that didnt sticker simply because they were overgraded. That doesnt mean I dont love them.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Even with PCGS/CAC...I would never buy off eBay. I just assume that those are mediocre coins (level "B") not worth the premium.
With low value coins, I will fool around
He who knows he has enough is rich.
Stickers, a wonderful learning tool, the time you spend chatting with JA regarding a coin....priceless. Sharpen your eye and you can 'sticker' the coin yourself on the show floor and and when you take it to Far Hills, you can get one adhered. There are zillions of fine coins out there that have not had the opportunity for a sticker, so dont exclude them from your purchases....try and learn what JA sees when he looks at the coin. I know thats difficult, but it is possible. I had one gold dollar, he looked at it...I seen a sweet AU58 and he said it was polished on the high points. When I 'looked', I seen that too.............
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<< <i> I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. >>
Interesting that JA can detect AT through the slab when 3 or 4 PCGS graders examined the coin outside of the slab. His business model
is based on raising doubt about the accuracy of his former employers. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. >>
Interesting that JA can detect AT through the slab when 3 or 4 PCGS graders examined the coin outside of the slab. His business model
is based on raising doubt about the accuracy of his former employers. >>
Yet the grading standards of this and all other tpgs are constantly changing. When a coin is cracked out a dozen times and comes back 10 different grades including genuine, then the tpg is raising doubt on their own accuracy no?
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
I had to read the OP and some other posts to realize that you are talking about
coins that are not in your hand when you purchase them. Now I understand why
you and perhaps I would fell the same way. Not being able to look that $1000 plus
purchase in the face is a very reasonable cause for hesitation. I have done it on
several occasions but as you did and so many others have, " Case in point, I recently
returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder. " That is where your safety lies. You really
shouldn't get caught up in another factor in buying your coins becasue then where
will it stop if only PCGS slabs with CAC stickers will the next be only something else to
hinder your enjoyment. Doubting each purchase can cause great loss of your true
judgement.
Use The Force, it is what you have studied for all these years is it not?
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<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. >>
Interesting that JA can detect AT through the slab when 3 or 4 PCGS graders examined the coin outside of the slab. His business model
is based on raising doubt about the accuracy of his former employers. >>
Yet the grading standards of this and all other tpgs are constantly changing. When a coin is cracked out a dozen times and comes back 10 different grades including genuine, then the tpg is raising doubt on their own accuracy no? >>
Wait until you have a couple coins that sticker in one holder, gets crossed, and fail to sticker in the new holders.
No grading process is perfect. That said, I can see why you feel the way that you do, and I certainly share some of the sentiment of your OP. There are plenty of coins out there, and if you are patient, you can find just about anything you want in a PCGS/CAC holder.
<< <i>Personally, I think only a fool would unquestioningly trust JAs experience and eye. >>
I fixed it for you.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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<< <i>Personally, I think only a fool would unquestioningly trust JAs experience and eye. >>
I fixed it for you.
Only a fool would ignore JA's ability. Unfortunately, other folks review coins at CAC, too, and they may or may not have the same skill level.
We have all, by this time, seen some head-scratchers in CAC holders, too.
<< <i>I thought JA looked at every coin coming into CAC? >>
I have been told by one of the investors that this is not the case.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ankur - If you feel you need a third opinion, you should get it. But tell me, when you rely so heavily on other people in making your decisions, does it affect your enjoyment of the hobby? >>
Not at all Andy. What does affect enjoymemt is spending four figs on a coin that turns out to have problems. I do have many coins in my collection that didnt sticker simply because they were overgraded. That doesnt mean I dont love them. >>
I agree with Ankur on this point. A few years ago, when the most expensive coin that I have ever purchased turned in the PCGS holder, I was so disgusted and disappointed that I almost quit collecting coins.
Instead, I changed how I do things, including not buying coins at that price point. Much of what and how I collect is defensive in nature because I never want to have that feeling (or monetary loss) again.
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<< <i>I thought JA looked at every coin coming into CAC? >>
I have been told by one of the investors that this is not the case. >>
At one point John offered me an opportunity to inspect coins for stickers. I delined because I've retired as a dealer.
<< <i>If the sticker means a coin is 'strong for the grade,' I think I would like to see a mini-sticker on that sticker to indicate that the coin is 'strong for the sticker.' >>
heh!
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<< <i>I thought JA looked at every coin coming into CAC? >>
I have been told by one of the investors that this is not the case. >>
At one point John offered me an opportunity to inspect coins for stickers. I delined because I've retired as a dealer. >>
An interesting fact indeed.
EAC 6024
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
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<< <i>MS66 AND strong for the grade?
...my point exactly. Thanks for sharing!
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For the lower 80% in grading ability which is the vast majority of collectors because most of the top 20% are dealers, or pro graders, stickered only seems a rational way to go for expensive coins. Thumbs up on the decision. If I were contemplating the purchase of similarly priced numismatic coins, I too would tend to look for stickered coins.
AL
<< <i>The op makes a lot of sense to me. Numismatic coins over $1000 in value are CAC's primary market. If a person is in the top 5% of graders like some on the forum seem to be, perhaps they don't need stickers, probably don't have much need for slabs either. Some of that top 5% seems to always chime in on these kinds of threads, and often seem to think grading is as easy for everyone else as it is for them--not at all true. Most of that top 5% were born with a great talent, a great natural eye for grading coins, which they have developed with training. Most collectors could study eight hours a day for a year and still not to get to the top 5% of graders because they don't have enough raw talent to begin with.
For the lower 80% in grading ability which is the vast majority of collectors because most of the top 20% are dealers, or pro graders, stickered only seems a rational way to go for expensive coins. Thumbs up on the decision. If I were contemplating the purchase of similarly priced numismatic coins, I too would tend to look for stickered coins. >>
I think you are overstating the ability to grade. While there may be a smidge of talent in there it is mostly a combination of intelligence and physical comprehension with a little cause and effect rational thrown in and it isn't the talent part that most people lack
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<< <i>The op makes a lot of sense to me. Numismatic coins over $1000 in value are CAC's primary market. If a person is in the top 5% of graders like some on the forum seem to be, perhaps they don't need stickers, probably don't have much need for slabs either. Some of that top 5% seems to always chime in on these kinds of threads, and often seem to think grading is as easy for everyone else as it is for them--not at all true. Most of that top 5% were born with a great talent, a great natural eye for grading coins, which they have developed with training. Most collectors could study eight hours a day for a year and still not to get to the top 5% of graders because they don't have enough raw talent to begin with.
For the lower 80% in grading ability which is the vast majority of collectors because most of the top 20% are dealers, or pro graders, stickered only seems a rational way to go for expensive coins. Thumbs up on the decision. If I were contemplating the purchase of similarly priced numismatic coins, I too would tend to look for stickered coins. >>
I think you are overstating the ability to grade. While there may be a smidge of talent in there it is mostly a combination of intelligence and physical comprehension with a little cause and effect rational thrown in and it isn't the talent part that most people lack
I think you are overstating the opposite. Training can get a person to the top 20%. The top 5%, certainly the top 1% are blessed with great natural talent. It is similar in many other fields, training can move a person up, but the top people in most fields started on third base because of talent, coin grading is no different. In basketball, you can't teach height. In coin grading, you can't teach eye for detail, and good eye sight. If a person doesn't have the horsepower to begin with, the kind of brain that can remember all the details that go into consistent coin grading they will never be in that very top group. A person with superior eye sight (near sighted helps) has a huge natural advantage in coin grading over people with average vision or who are far sighted. Look at the top dealers in grading ability. Look at the young people that are the best graders. Virtually everyone of them had a great natural ability which they developed with training. I don't think there are any top graders that were average folks for a long time period and took the ANA course and applied themselves and now are in that top 5% group. I may be wrong, but my observations about the top graders seem mostly to point to great natural talent combined with hours and hours of studying coins.
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<< <i> I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. >>
Interesting that JA can detect AT through the slab when 3 or 4 PCGS graders examined the coin outside of the slab. His business model
is based on raising doubt about the accuracy of his former employers. >>
I feel confident enough in my numismatic ability to know if a slabbed coin is strong for its grade or not.
I've seen some questionable coins with the sticker.
Bottom line is that if I like the way a coin looks and the price is right, I'll buy it otherwise no sale.
<< <i>Perhaps this means it's time to put some money into education, rather than throwing it at coins. >>
Exactly.
<< <i>I feel confident enough in my numismatic ability to know if a slabbed coin is strong for its grade or not.
I've seen some questionable coins with the sticker.
Bottom line is that if I like the way a coin looks and the price is right, I'll buy it otherwise no sale. >>
You shouldn't be buying expensive coins until you have the confidence to judge FOR YOURSELF what is a
good coin and an bad coin. Virtually any field of investments or collectibles, if you are relying on
SOMEONE ELSE's opinion of what to buy or what to pay, without KNOWING YOURSELF, you are just
waiting to be fleeced.
No
<< <i>
<< <i>Ankur - If you feel you need a third opinion, you should get it. But tell me, when you rely so heavily on other people in making your decisions, does it affect your enjoyment of the hobby? >>
Not at all Andy. What does affect enjoymemt is spending four figs on a coin that turns out to have problems. I do have many coins in my collection that didnt sticker simply because they were overgraded. That doesnt mean I dont love them. >>
Just because a coin doesn't sticker doesn't mean it's over graded, John has stated this no less then a 1000 times. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163