Just scanned the replies, couldn't find mention of the thing a CAC sticker supplies, or at least was supposed to: a market for the coin sight unseen at the cert. grade.
I agree with Tiny......buy the coin not the sticker!
Also, on the AT NT thing.........I don't think toning should hurt or help a grade. I think a coin should be graded by detail and surfaces. Color should have nothing to do with grading.
I have thought of starting a thread on this......may or may not.
<< <i> Just because a coin doesn't sticker doesn't mean it's over graded, John has stated this no less then a 1000 times. MJ >>
And state on their website for a couple of years...
Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.
Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>Case in point, I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. It was an excellent AT job that had me fooled, and JA pointed out to me what was wrong. >>
By all means, please share exactly what he said was wrong with the coin.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>If the sticker means a coin is 'strong for the grade,' I think I would like to see a mini-sticker on that sticker to indicate that the coin is 'strong for the sticker.' >>
<< <i>I feel confident enough in my numismatic ability to know if a slabbed coin is strong for its grade or not. I've seen some questionable coins with the sticker. Bottom line is that if I like the way a coin looks and the price is right, I'll buy it otherwise no sale. >>
You shouldn't be buying expensive coins until you have the confidence to judge FOR YOURSELF what is a good coin and an bad coin. Virtually any field of investments or collectibles, if you are relying on SOMEONE ELSE's opinion of what to buy or what to pay, without KNOWING YOURSELF, you are just waiting to be fleeced. >>
Bzzt. Wrong answer. In an ideal world this would be true, but we don't live in an ideal world. Most collectors don't have near enough grading ability to determine quality within a grade. Should they all permanently avoid expensive coins? That is one choice. However, TPGs and now the stickers can be used to help. I see no shame on relying on these aids. Smart collectors use available tools, the top 5% in natural talent don't need them. However, most are not in that top talent group and never will be, never can be. The too cool for school crowd, the arrogant crowd, also might avoid using tools, as will those that tend to buy lower value coins.
Most old timers will remember very similar arguments against TPGs when they were new. There is zero chance that I would purchase a $1000 value numismatic coin raw. Does that decision make me weak or smart? I vote smart. Now that stickers are available the arguments are similar, though the points become finer. If I choose to buy expensive coins with stickers does that make me weak or smart? Again, I vote smart, and I think the op is smart for making that decision.
So you are basically saying that you do not have complete confidence in a TPG like PCGS who uses a team of graders to accurately grade within 1 point and spot any problems, but you do have confidence in just one person at another service to accurately grade within one third of a point and spot any problems?
I have used CAC in the past, but only for higher priced stuff I plan to sell as they do typically bring a stronger price in some circles. I will however not pay premiums for stickered coins solely because of the sticker.
<< <i>I feel confident enough in my numismatic ability to know if a slabbed coin is strong for its grade or not. I've seen some questionable coins with the sticker. Bottom line is that if I like the way a coin looks and the price is right, I'll buy it otherwise no sale. >>
You shouldn't be buying expensive coins until you have the confidence to judge FOR YOURSELF what is a good coin and an bad coin. Virtually any field of investments or collectibles, if you are relying on SOMEONE ELSE's opinion of what to buy or what to pay, without KNOWING YOURSELF, you are just waiting to be fleeced. >>
For the most part the TPGs are important to me more for their ability to ascertain if a coin is genuine or not, or if it has been altered in any way that may not be readily discernible to me. I've been collecting coins for many years and can accurately determine the grade of a coin in the various series I collect. The TPG's assigned grade is helpful, of course, but the final determination is mine. Along that line, I've run across slabbed coins that I felt were under-graded and slabbed coins that I thought over-graded. But the vast majority of major (PCGS, NGC, ANACS) TPG slabbed coins I've seen are, indeed, properly graded.
<< <i>I have a question for the sticker enthusiasts...
So you are basically saying that you do not have complete confidence in a TPG like PCGS who uses a team of graders to accurately grade within 1 point and spot any problems, but you do have confidence in just one person at another service to accurately grade within one third of a point and spot any problems? >>
Yes.
And CAC does buy any coin theyve stickered. In one case ive sold them a coin that didnt sticker as well.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
The TPGs have saved me time when it comes to looking for coins. Ie., when I was looking for a gem Barber Dime, I looked at what PCGS and NGC slabbed in MS 65 holders. I looked at quite a few of them, and got what I thought was a good feel for what said coin in MS 65 should look like. I selected what I thought was the most attractive coin, and then showed it to my mentor, then to a dealer I implicitly trust. When I got a thumbs up from both of them, as well as an explanation why they liked the coin, I compared such to why I liked it, and then bought it.
I have never bought a bad coin this way. Ever.
Using this approach, I've learned how to grade coins in my area of expertise fairly well. Ie., I think Roadrunner can grade high end Seated material as well as anyone else out there. To me, the TPG's assignment of a grade to a coin is a starting point.
As far as stickers go, I know JA does a lot of gold, and maybe this is the area where he personally pays the most attention. I don't collect gold, so this doesn't affect me.
I will say when it comes to MS 66 Liberty Nickels and MS 66 SLQs, based on what I've seen, I have been underwhelmed by many of the stickered coins. In general, what I would call problem stickered coins imo were usually flashy enough to be considered high end for the grade, but because they had too many surface flaws -- usually too many contact marks or other funky stuff in grade sensitive areas -- I would call these coins low end for the grade, though rarely would I consider them to be overgraded. Ie., I've seen dozens of stickered coins that I would not want in my collection.
Btw, my mentor can spot AT'd, baked, or bleached coins better than anyone else out there, grader, CAC, dealer, pick whom you choose.
In short, I think it best to get educated, and find people who know more know than you do who are willing to share their expertise, rather than rely on an assignment of a grade, or a sticker.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Elcontador: your approach may work with some coins, but comparing similarly graded early type, bust material, and early copper in general is a very difficult task. It amazes me how some of those coins made it into holders anyway.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
Let me understand this, there are dealers out there who can't spot a good coin from one that has been tampered with. I'm talking major dealers. Even PCGS gets fooled too often. As a collector I know I can learn so much.
So many of you think you really know how to grade and spot bad coins? Spare me.
<< <i>Let me understand this, there are dealers out there who can't spot a good coin from one that has been tampered with. I'm talking major dealers. Even PCGS gets fooled too often. As a collector I know I can learn so much.
So many of you think you really know how to grade and spot bad coins? Spare me. >>
Between what I and my contacts know, yes I can. In all of the years of buying coins, I have NEVER bought one bad coin using the method described in an earlier post.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Most folks on this board probably already realize that I think the CAC model is rather benign and that I generally support the endeavor. However, I will ask if you are agreeable to paying more for a coin on contingency that it stickers vs. buying the coin outright. In my opinion, having to pay more is a reasonable tradeoff the the requirement. >>
Tom, ive done it many times. In fact that 1813 $5 I just bought was purchased on a similar contingency. I paid a small premium that was agreed upon before the coin was sent to me.
Frankscoins: so you mean to tell me every monster toned ASE that pcgs has slabbed is natural??? Please.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
If the sticker makes you more comfortable spending your money, by all means "stick" to it.
I like CAC because it makes coins more liquid and I sell too. I recently bought this piece on eBay and would not have if it wasn't stickered. $100 in eBay Bucks sealed the deal.
I agree with Ankur and Red Tiger. What's wrong with "limiting" oneself to coins that are already slabbed and stickered? On top of that you get to choose the ones you like...so that's 3 levels of agreement with no less than 5 people involved. I'd say with that method you'd minimize your mistakes and losses, which is what buries most collectors over time. It financial loss is not a consideration then by all means buy what you love regardless of anyone else's opinion.
So you are basically saying that you do not have complete confidence in a TPG like PCGS who uses a team of graders to accurately grade within 1 point and spot any problems, but you do have confidence in just one person at another service to accurately grade within one third of a point and spot any problems?
I trust my own opinion. But I trust it a whole lot more when PCGS/NGC and CAC agree with my assessment as well. Why settle for just one or two opinions? And those team of TPG graders could probably also assess that coin to within 1/3 of a point (hi, lo, average) if given the time to do so and if their own money was on the line as if buying for inventory. Identifying hi/lo/ave is much more about how desireable is the coin than it is about micro grading it. Would you be comfortable owning this coin at high, low, or average money for that grade?
I've owned a number coins where I felt the coin was all there and the TPG's and/or CAC did not agree. While I was right in my own mind, the marketplace did not agree. And if some of the "fun" of collecting coins is not losing one's butt on one's belief in their grading infallibility, then relying on a single grading event may not be your ally either. I know that if coins were a break even or losing proposition from the start, many of us would find another "hobby" to participate in and preferably one where the loss potential is not so high. In many slabs your loss potential when buying a top tier TPG product is 50% assuming it's low end or an overgrade. While JA says that coins which don't sticker aren't necessarily overgraded, it's a polite way to say they aren't so market acceptable. Auction prices tend to bear out this fact. The market's line of bifurcation continues to tighten and squeeze out lesser coins. When the 1990's market got to the point of having too many coins for the present demand, that problem was solved by slowly allowing more entrants into MS66-68 holders. Now that we're right back to the same point again, sticker - plus- star - shield comes along to whittle down the field for the 3rd time. Nothing wrong with buying C level or low end coins for the grade....as long as you are able to buy them for low end or 1/2 to 1/3 grade down price. There are many parts of the slabbed coin market where stickers don't add much if any value. But for MS/PF type coins in the 64-69 level it is very important. Many people that can't understand why a JA opinion is a waste of money have no problem paying a 5% commission to their favorite dealer to view lots at auction for them. Seems like the same thing to me. If it isn't, then 99% of collectors could assemble a quality collection with little downside just by bidding on auction coins via slab grades and photos. Elcontador has a similar support system where he obviously doesn't rely on the holder or the sticker to purchase. So in his case he has up to a 5 or 6 tier system. Nothing wrong with that at all if eliminating mistakes is a key goal.
<< <i>I respect JA's eyes and business model! However I think Ankur is showing his immaturity in the hobby by total and complete reliance on a single product, just like many of collectors have the same reliance on a single piece of plastic. Never say never. I personally will buy a coin stickered or unstickered, sure it is a nice happy ending if they get stickered but that will not stop me from buying the COIN if I love it. >>
Excuse me, but I didnt say I ONLY buy stickered coins. But again, if im spending thousands, I want that sticker there. Period. Call it immature or whatever, but I refuse to drop serious money on a problem coin in a problem free holder. I saw over a dozen early $10's at baltimore in problem free slabs, and every one had issues. I waited, and found a gorgeous one that was stickered and I have no regrets. I once bought a 1800 $5 in a AU50 holder that turned out to be cleaned. I got out of it, but will never make that same mistake again.
One of my favorite coins is a 1795 large cent in PCGS XF40 with NO corossion or issues. JA acknowledged its a great coin, but it was slightly overgraded. He also said the surfaces are so PQ that it would trade at XF levels even though its truly a VF.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i> I once bought a 1800 $5 in a AU50 holder that turned out to be cleaned. I got out of it, but will never make that same mistake again. >>
Did you learn how to spot a cleaning now, or depend on the factory to be 100% accurate on all coins? At the level you buy I would certainly hope you can spot a cleaning no matter how small or how long ago. AT and/or putty I can understand it being tough. But all collectors should be able to know when a coin is cleaned IMO.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Not a bad strategy for expensive (five figure) coins in today's environment. There are still lots of nice non-stickered expensive coins for the daring, or knowledgeable.
<< <i>I once bought a 1800 $5 in a AU50 holder that turned out to be cleaned >>
ANAC's? I don't believe CAC guarantees originality.
I bought most of my expensive coins preCAC, only had one CACer, was far from my favorite, thought it was overgraded and eventually traded when I stopped collecting the series. Many of my coins I bought were before everything was slabbed. Those were the good old days for me, many are still raw, others graded above purchased grade at time because of grade inflation. TPG's and CAC have only increased the cost of collecting for me. Yes, I will make more when my collection is sold, but I am a collector so acquiring more coins is more important than selling.
Robert Scot: Engraving Liberty - biography of US Mint's first chief engraver
They don't as far as I know. But, many collectors believe this, and also feel the sticker stands for "eye-appeal." Of course many dealers hype it as if it is truth, that know better. And very seldom do I see the folks that are cheerleaders for the factory correct them.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i> I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. >>
Interesting that JA can detect AT through the slab when 3 or 4 PCGS graders examined the coin outside of the slab. His business model is based on raising doubt about the accuracy of his former employers. >>
My thoughts as well.
Winner of the "You Suck!" award March 17, 2010 by LanLord, doh, 123cents and Bear.
<< <i> I once bought a 1800 $5 in a AU50 holder that turned out to be cleaned. I got out of it, but will never make that same mistake again. >>
Did you learn how to spot a cleaning now, or depend on the factory to be 100% accurate on all coins? At the level you buy I would certainly hope you can spot a cleaning no matter how small or how long ago. AT and/or putty I can understand it being tough. But all collectors should be able to know when a coin is cleaned IMO. >>
The coin was bought sight unseen from heritage which was a mistake on its own. Their images did a great job hiding the cleaning. And HA has no return policy. When I got the coin in hand, I knew immediately that it was cleaned.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i> I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. >>
Interesting that JA can detect AT through the slab when 3 or 4 PCGS graders examined the coin outside of the slab. His business model is based on raising doubt about the accuracy of his former employers. >>
My thoughts as well. >>
I said it once, ill say it again. Because pcgs says so, all of the Silver Eagles with monster taco bell napkin toning must be NT. Right?
Keep believing that.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
At the level you buy I would certainly hope you can spot a cleaning no matter how small or how long ago. AT and/or putty I can understand it being tough. But all collectors should be able to know when a coin is cleaned IMO
If the real criteria for buying something from the 19th or 18th century in a slab rests solely on it ever being cleaned, then I would probably reject 75% of the bust coins currently in holders, and probably 50% of the seated coins. The irony of this situation is that the uncleaned coins from that era, esp. the MS ones, tend to have deeper toning that mutes the luster and lowers the grade. You can rarely have your cake and eat it too. This is why so many settle for bright white dipped 19th century coins. On most of the 19th century bust and seated dipped coins I see the luster has been reduced a notch...no different than cleaning imo.
I've cracked out very clean but toned MS seated PGCS and NGC coins and got them back bagged. Clearly the 2nd time through the graders didn't agree with their original assessment. JA is just making a market acceptable call on whether he wants to make an offer to buy a coin or not (ie sticker it). If there's doubt, it's rejected. Any collector or dealer can set up their own stickering operation if they think they can do it better.
Too bad for you Ankur, I live out in the boonies with no CAC or coin shops and I have 200 pcgs coins I am going to sell. They are the best of the best I could find over the last 20 years and none are CAC! Guess you wont be able to get any--------------BigE
As someone else pointed out, it is time you put money and time towards education rather than coins. Not every certified coin on the planet is going to go to CAC for stickering. There really is no need for it. Fine, the concept is great I suppose, but do you really, really, really need it? I have yet to steer away from coins not CAC'd upon. I rely on my own numismatic education that I have learned over many, MANY years of collecting. That is all I need. Every now and then an error is made on my part, but that goes towards the education.
Rampage, If thats the case, why do you even need slabs? If you are so well educated, I assume most of your collection must be raw, right?
BigE: with companies like heritage and stacks, a collector in the most desolate area can have a stellar collection without once visiting a store or show. If you saw the price differences between non-CAC and CAC, you would send yours in as well before selling. Stacks and Heritage send in almost everything. There must be a reason for it no?
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Rampage, If thats the case, why do you even need slabs? If you are so well educated, I assume most of your collection must be raw, right?
BigE: with companies like heritage and stacks, a collector in the most desolate area can have a stellar collection without once visiting a store or show. If you saw the price differences between non-CAC and CAC, you would send yours in as well before selling. Stacks and Heritage send in almost everything. There must be a reason for it no? >>
Not sure about the whole CAC submission process, I was thinking to state that they have not been sent and let customer do it, at least they know they are not rejects. I'll be sure to take good photos so they can see for themselves--------------------BigE
There seems to be too many people here with too much collectors pride. If PCGS can't tell a bad coin all the time, how can you? No collector here can match the CAC teams grading abilites. You may think you are better or disagree with their grading, at least you won't get a doctored coin with a CAC holder. If you do, JA will buy it back immediately (which he just did for me). Go to PCGS or NGC with your bad coins for them to buy back and see what happens.
If CAC did not exist, coin values would be cut in half. There was too much crap out there that was unidentified for too long. Just look at gold coins. A huge % have been puttied or doctored and eventhe best collectors who can grade do not know it. Now, because of CAC there is huge consumer confidence. Don't think so? Just look at every major auction companies prices realized.
I consider the sticker more than unstickered but less than a plus of the same grade. All other factors being equal, I will favor a stickered coin over an unstickered one. But, it is very rare for it to come up, because my choices at coin shows seldom boil down to several identical coins.
Improperly Cleaned, Our passion for numismatics is Genuine! Now featuring correct spelling.
<< <i>...at least you won't get a doctored coin with a CAC holder. If you do, JA will buy it back immediately (which he just did for me)... >>
>>
Laugh as much as you want. But read the thread about the 1804 Large cent with an alterated date so well done that it fooled NGC. They made good on it. Doctoring has become SO good these days, that even long time dealers/collectors can be fooled by it. What bulldozer is saying is that if a similar mistake is made by CAC, they WILL make good on it without a doubt. I guarantee you this is a very rare occurance though.
All coins kept in bank vaults. PCGS Registries Box of 20 SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
I believe in learning what I can and buying what I am fine with. When I make big purchases, I buy in PCGS and maybe NGC. They both have guarantees in case they missed something that could affect the price (aside from mechanical errors...which is why it pays to be careful anyway). All CAC is, imho, is another opinion of a respected HUMAN. JA makes mistakes, from what I have seen/heard, but he also isn't trying to push through as many coins as the TPGS graders and is more selective.
I will ABSOLUTELY still buy a coin even if not CAC'ed. Mark Feld is one of the biggest CAC supporters, I believe, and he still buys coins that aren't CAC'ed.
If one is going to be so hesitant, then maybe one should either stop collecting and go find something they can do themselves, or maybe they should just have someone else go out and find the coins and put them away...and just open their wallet for that person.......
Though, methinks some of this may be due to having more than a fair share of problem coins which could come from trying to slash people on prices to the point that non-problem coins aren't offered as much.....
At the level some collectors are at, I can't blame them for getting plastic and stickers on /around their coins. There are some shady (sketchy) characters in this business... and they're on both sides of the counter. The following is how I perceive things:
a) Standards are adopted (TPG and modified Sheldon Scale). b) opinions are expensive (TPGs and others who affix labels, such as CAC). c) The industry thrives off the hobby. * d) Coins are not as much fun when the coin is taken out of the equation and replaced with silly attitudes and lousy opinions about 1) the standard, or 2) those who try to uphold it.
In the end: let your eye be the judge. Let the coin adjust your attitude, not anything or anyone around it !
There's a solution, and this has probably been discussed before. Have PCGS rank their graders by reported mistakes, customer input, or whatever and offer a tier service where only the Top 4 graders grade the coins. This is basically what CAC does and they could even have a team per coin type, which CAC doesn't do. They could offer this for oh, let's say...$10 per coin.
Ankur has determined that at a certain pricing point his comfort level requires JA’s sticker. Why should anyone condemn him for that?
Reading some of these posts it seems that there are a lot of people living in glass houses. One poster who ridiculed Ankur spends most of his waking life comparing coins with plate coins in his reference book, hoping to buy plate coins because in his mind that means that they are original and among the finest known. So he criticizes someone for using JA as a crutch while he is using the author of his book as his crutch.
As one poster pointed out, many people who say that they don’t need no stinking $15 stickers are willing to shell out 5% to have a dealer screen auction lots. Others only deal with select dealers whose eyes and skills they can trust. Are they deluding themselves into thinking that they are not paying for professional assistance?
Another fellow has concluded that because his favorite dealer buys coins that are not stickered, it means that stickers are not necessary. OK, but that dealer is a seasoned dealer and former professional grader—are you?
I also love the cliches tossed around here. “Learn to grade.” Great advice. How do you know when you have learned to grade, other than when you discover that your coins are garbage.
And oh, don’t forget “buy the coin not the holder.” Go look at the successful cross-over rate at PCGS. The last time I looked it was under 40%. Those are people who bought the coin not the holder. Hopefully they paid NGC money rather than PCGS money.
Ankur is OK, he seems to have learned a lot from the cac people and certainly can take being the weekly punching bag around here without holding a grudge or flipping out. Just comparing him to members 30-40 years older---------------BigE
If CAC did not exist, coin values would be cut in half. There was too much crap out there that was unidentified for too long. Just look at gold coins. A huge % have been puttied or doctored and even the best collectors who can grade do not know it. Now, because of CAC there is huge consumer confidence. Don't think so? Just look at every major auction companies prices realized. Like it or not, CAC helps the coin market.
I have to disagree with some of this. The existence of CAC has cut coin values essentially in half......those of the low end or misgraded variety (C level coins, etc). While maybe not half but certainly at the 25-35% level.
Look at the weak prices NGC non-stickered coins bring in the market...basically 1/2 pt or more deduction. But on the flip side the value of PCGS CAC coins where there is a strong REG set demand still in place have really surged. But I would submit that the majority of collectors hold the C level coins rather than the A's and B's. CAC has just expedited the process of identifying the less desireable coins in each grade range. PCGS secure and plus are doing a similar thing. This has been a bonanza to those dealers selling mostly CAC coins as well as people who paid extra for high end coins all along...and really got them. Too many collectors were paying high end money from 2002-2009 but still ended up with C coins. If CAC did not exist a lot of coins would be worth a whole lot more money. This "huge" collector confidence only comes with the higher end and stickered coins, leaving the other 50-75% of coins out in the cold. This confidence is a sharp 2 edged sword. 15-25% of the coin market has been elevated while 50% has been demoted. It was going to happen eventually, but the process was sped up via stickering and additional PCGS/NGC attributions.
There certainly seems to be a reasonable need for a post-slab opinion. 2 otherwise identical coins are considered identical out of holders. But place them in different holders and the market will value them differently, and in many cases quite differently. To competent graders the coins are identical. But they too realize that market demand makes their prices different. It is a strange twist on the evolution of coin grading/valuations.
Oh Calgold...how you take things out of context....
Since I am sure you are referencing my post as the one for mentioning a "favorite dealer" who is a past professional grader and is ok not buying CAC......well, you should re-read my post to understand it a bit better. Nowhere did I state that because he does it does it mean "stickers are not necessary". I think they are fine for an additional opinion, but I think it is pretty "sad" (using "sad" since I am trying not to use harsh words to hurt anyone's gentle feelings) if one will ONLY buy a CAC stickered coin.
Do you ever think CAC does not sticker a coin that YOU think is ok? Or, are you thinking CAC is infallible? I am sure there are coins that aren't CACed, nor would be, that I would be fine with (as would many others) and I also think that ANYTHING/ANYONE is fallible. Mistakes happen and when it comes to differences of OPINION, they happen as well.
I think the things about the OP and his thread that get people going are that he has bought plenty of problem coins, has been seen to try to beat the price down to a point where it insulted the dealer (and who knows how many others in similar transactions), and his post seems clear that he has now limited his future collection to ONLY coins that has been stickered by CAC or a promise that they will sticker or else be returned.
Sounds more like an investment than collecting to me. Unless one has been in the industry full time, and/or for many years, and/or had the opportunities to see/learn a ton about grading/coins/toning/tooling/etc, then I think it is unreasonable to focus without assistance. However, to post that one needs such a crutch, where there are many other things that can assist, is pretty telling about the poster and his confidence in himself and TPGS, right? Not meant as an insult at all, but rather a statement. Do I think I could do better? Don't know. I know many know coins better than I do. I know I buy PCGS and have bought CAC coins (never for a premium in my mind, but rather for what I would pay for the coin without it anyway). I don't mind the CAC sticker, but I also won't crutch on it. I know I will continue to buy raw, within levels I am comfortable with (ie...gambling money as if I were in Vegas at Blackjack or Craps). I will buy coins in holders without CAC as well. To me, it IS ABOUT the coins. And, know what? If I buy a PCGS coin that was doctored and they missed it, I am pretty darn confident that PCGS will step up with their guarantee. Just as I am confident that JA/CAC will step up with his guarantee if he missed something (which, I recall some threads on coins he has "bought back" due to issues).
So, Calgold, given how you generalized my post, pulled out 1 portion of it and twisted it a bit, I am pretty sure the other mentions in your post are similarly generalized and slightly twisted from the original meaning.
PS....I have NO problems with AnkurJ and his desire to only buy CAC.....I just find it telling and limited and when I see a post like that, I can almost smell the fear in the poster and the fact that they are usually fishing for support for their decision or to convince others of the same......"misery loves company" type of thing......posting like that is looking for support that a right decision was made.
Comments
Does CAC still be buying stickered coins?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Also, on the AT NT thing.........I don't think toning should hurt or help a grade. I think a coin should be graded by detail and surfaces. Color should have nothing to do with grading.
I have thought of starting a thread on this......may or may not.
<< <i>
Just because a coin doesn't sticker doesn't mean it's over graded, John has stated this no less then a 1000 times. MJ >>
And state on their website for a couple of years...
Many coins that CAC has reviewed, but did not sticker, have been accurately graded by PCGS or NGC. However, CAC stickers only coins that are solid for the grade, often referred to as B quality coins, and those that are considered high-end for the grade, which are often called A quality coins. Those that are accurately graded by PCGS or NGC, but are considered low-end for the grade and often referred to as C quality coins, are not stickered by CAC.
Furthermore, CAC wishes to protect the interest of an owner of a coin that has been reviewed by CAC but did not receive a sticker. Therefore, CAC does not want to compromise the value of such a coin by disclosing a negative review by CAC.
<< <i>Case in point, I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. It was an excellent AT job that had me fooled, and JA pointed out to me what was wrong. >>
By all means, please share exactly what he said was wrong with the coin.
The name is LEE!
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>If the sticker means a coin is 'strong for the grade,' I think I would like to see a mini-sticker on that sticker to indicate that the coin is 'strong for the sticker.' >>
I foresee a new business model!
Tom
<< <i>
<< <i>I feel confident enough in my numismatic ability to know if a slabbed coin is strong for its grade or not.
I've seen some questionable coins with the sticker.
Bottom line is that if I like the way a coin looks and the price is right, I'll buy it otherwise no sale. >>
You shouldn't be buying expensive coins until you have the confidence to judge FOR YOURSELF what is a
good coin and an bad coin. Virtually any field of investments or collectibles, if you are relying on
SOMEONE ELSE's opinion of what to buy or what to pay, without KNOWING YOURSELF, you are just
waiting to be fleeced. >>
Bzzt. Wrong answer. In an ideal world this would be true, but we don't live in an ideal world. Most collectors don't have near enough grading ability to determine quality within a grade. Should they all permanently avoid expensive coins? That is one choice. However, TPGs and now the stickers can be used to help. I see no shame on relying on these aids. Smart collectors use available tools, the top 5% in natural talent don't need them. However, most are not in that top talent group and never will be, never can be. The too cool for school crowd, the arrogant crowd, also might avoid using tools, as will those that tend to buy lower value coins.
Most old timers will remember very similar arguments against TPGs when they were new. There is zero chance that I would purchase a $1000 value numismatic coin raw. Does that decision make me weak or smart? I vote smart. Now that stickers are available the arguments are similar, though the points become finer. If I choose to buy expensive coins with stickers does that make me weak or smart? Again, I vote smart, and I think the op is smart for making that decision.
So you are basically saying that you do not have complete confidence in a TPG like PCGS who uses a team of graders to accurately grade within 1 point and spot any problems, but you do have confidence in just one person at another service to accurately grade within one third of a point and spot any problems?
I have used CAC in the past, but only for higher priced stuff I plan to sell as they do typically bring a stronger price in some circles. I will however not pay premiums for stickered coins solely because of the sticker.
<< <i>
<< <i>I feel confident enough in my numismatic ability to know if a slabbed coin is strong for its grade or not.
I've seen some questionable coins with the sticker.
Bottom line is that if I like the way a coin looks and the price is right, I'll buy it otherwise no sale. >>
You shouldn't be buying expensive coins until you have the confidence to judge FOR YOURSELF what is a
good coin and an bad coin. Virtually any field of investments or collectibles, if you are relying on
SOMEONE ELSE's opinion of what to buy or what to pay, without KNOWING YOURSELF, you are just
waiting to be fleeced. >>
For the most part the TPGs are important to me more for their ability to ascertain if a coin is genuine or not, or if it has been altered in any way that may not be readily discernible to me.
I've been collecting coins for many years and can accurately determine the grade of a coin in the various series I collect.
The TPG's assigned grade is helpful, of course, but the final determination is mine.
Along that line, I've run across slabbed coins that I felt were under-graded and slabbed coins that I thought over-graded.
But the vast majority of major (PCGS, NGC, ANACS) TPG slabbed coins I've seen are, indeed, properly graded.
<< <i>I have a question for the sticker enthusiasts...
So you are basically saying that you do not have complete confidence in a TPG like PCGS who uses a team of graders to accurately grade within 1 point and spot any problems, but you do have confidence in just one person at another service to accurately grade within one third of a point and spot any problems? >>
Yes.
And CAC does buy any coin theyve stickered. In one case ive sold them a coin that didnt sticker as well.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
I have never bought a bad coin this way. Ever.
Using this approach, I've learned how to grade coins in my area of expertise fairly well. Ie., I think Roadrunner can grade high end Seated material as well as anyone else out there. To me, the TPG's assignment of a grade to a coin is a starting point.
As far as stickers go, I know JA does a lot of gold, and maybe this is the area where he personally pays the most attention. I don't collect gold, so this doesn't affect me.
I will say when it comes to MS 66 Liberty Nickels and MS 66 SLQs, based on what I've seen, I have been underwhelmed by many of the stickered coins. In general, what I would call problem stickered coins imo were usually flashy enough to be considered high end for the grade, but because they had too many surface flaws -- usually too many contact marks or other funky stuff in grade sensitive areas -- I would call these coins low end for the grade, though rarely would I consider them to be overgraded. Ie., I've seen dozens of stickered coins that I would not want in my collection.
Btw, my mentor can spot AT'd, baked, or bleached coins better than anyone else out there, grader, CAC, dealer, pick whom you choose.
In short, I think it best to get educated, and find people who know more know than you do who are willing to share their expertise, rather than rely on an assignment of a grade, or a sticker.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
So many of you think you really know how to grade and spot bad coins? Spare me.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Let me understand this, there are dealers out there who can't spot a good coin from one that has been tampered with. I'm talking major dealers. Even PCGS gets fooled too often. As a collector I know I can learn so much.
So many of you think you really know how to grade and spot bad coins? Spare me. >>
Between what I and my contacts know, yes I can. In all of the years of buying coins, I have NEVER bought one bad coin using the method described in an earlier post.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Most folks on this board probably already realize that I think the CAC model is rather benign and that I generally support the endeavor. However, I will ask if you are agreeable to paying more for a coin on contingency that it stickers vs. buying the coin outright. In my opinion, having to pay more is a reasonable tradeoff the the requirement. >>
Tom, ive done it many times. In fact that 1813 $5 I just bought was purchased on a similar contingency. I paid a small premium that was agreed upon before the coin was sent to me.
Frankscoins: so you mean to tell me every monster toned ASE that pcgs has slabbed is natural??? Please.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
I like CAC because it makes coins more liquid and I sell too. I recently bought this piece on eBay and would not have if it wasn't stickered. $100 in eBay Bucks sealed the deal.
CAC Quarter-Eagle
you like...so that's 3 levels of agreement with no less than 5 people involved. I'd say with that method you'd minimize your mistakes and losses, which is what buries most
collectors over time. It financial loss is not a consideration then by all means buy what you love regardless of anyone else's opinion.
So you are basically saying that you do not have complete confidence in a TPG like PCGS who uses a team of graders to accurately grade within 1 point and spot any problems, but you do have confidence in just one person at another service to accurately grade within one third of a point and spot any problems?
I trust my own opinion. But I trust it a whole lot more when PCGS/NGC and CAC agree with my assessment as well. Why settle for just one or two opinions? And those team of TPG
graders could probably also assess that coin to within 1/3 of a point (hi, lo, average) if given the time to do so and if their own money was on the line as if buying for inventory. Identifying hi/lo/ave is much more about how desireable is the coin than it is about micro grading it. Would you be comfortable owning this coin at high, low, or average money for that
grade?
I've owned a number coins where I felt the coin was all there and the TPG's and/or CAC did not agree. While I was right in my own mind, the marketplace did not agree. And if
some of the "fun" of collecting coins is not losing one's butt on one's belief in their grading infallibility, then relying on a single grading event may not be your ally either. I know
that if coins were a break even or losing proposition from the start, many of us would find another "hobby" to participate in and preferably one where the loss potential is not so high.
In many slabs your loss potential when buying a top tier TPG product is 50% assuming it's low end or an overgrade. While JA says that coins which don't sticker aren't necessarily
overgraded, it's a polite way to say they aren't so market acceptable. Auction prices tend to bear out this fact. The market's line of bifurcation continues to tighten and
squeeze out lesser coins. When the 1990's market got to the point of having too many coins for the present demand, that problem was solved by slowly allowing more entrants into
MS66-68 holders. Now that we're right back to the same point again, sticker - plus- star - shield comes along to whittle down the field for the 3rd time. Nothing wrong with buying
C level or low end coins for the grade....as long as you are able to buy them for low end or 1/2 to 1/3 grade down price. There are many parts of the slabbed coin market where
stickers don't add much if any value. But for MS/PF type coins in the 64-69 level it is very important. Many people that can't understand why a JA opinion is a waste of money have
no problem paying a 5% commission to their favorite dealer to view lots at auction for them. Seems like the same thing to me. If it isn't, then 99% of collectors could assemble a
quality collection with little downside just by bidding on auction coins via slab grades and photos. Elcontador has a similar support system where he obviously doesn't rely on the
holder or the sticker to purchase. So in his case he has up to a 5 or 6 tier system. Nothing wrong with that at all if eliminating mistakes is a key goal.
roadrunner
some series, 1000 is nothing.
<< <i>I respect JA's eyes and business model!
However I think Ankur is showing his immaturity in the hobby by total and complete reliance on a single product, just like many of collectors have the same reliance on a single piece of plastic. Never say never.
I personally will buy a coin stickered or unstickered, sure it is a nice happy ending if they get stickered but that will not stop me from buying the COIN if I love it. >>
Excuse me, but I didnt say I ONLY buy stickered coins. But again, if im spending thousands, I want that sticker there. Period. Call it immature or whatever, but I refuse to drop serious money on a problem coin in a problem free holder. I saw over a dozen early $10's at baltimore in problem free slabs, and every one had issues. I waited, and found a gorgeous one that was stickered and I have no regrets. I once bought a 1800 $5 in a AU50 holder that turned out to be cleaned. I got out of it, but will never make that same mistake again.
One of my favorite coins is a 1795 large cent in PCGS XF40 with NO corossion or issues. JA acknowledged its a great coin, but it was slightly overgraded. He also said the surfaces are so PQ that it would trade at XF levels even though its truly a VF.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i> I once bought a 1800 $5 in a AU50 holder that turned out to be cleaned. I got out of it, but will never make that same mistake again. >>
Did you learn how to spot a cleaning now, or depend on the factory to be 100% accurate on all coins? At the level you buy I would certainly hope you can spot a cleaning no matter how small or how long ago. AT and/or putty I can understand it being tough. But all collectors should be able to know when a coin is cleaned IMO.
<< <i>I once bought a 1800 $5 in a AU50 holder that turned out to be cleaned >>
ANAC's? I don't believe CAC guarantees originality.
I bought most of my expensive coins preCAC, only had one CACer, was far from my favorite, thought it was overgraded and eventually traded when I stopped collecting the series. Many of my coins I bought were before everything was slabbed. Those were the good old days for me, many are still raw, others graded above purchased grade at time because of grade inflation. TPG's and CAC have only increased the cost of collecting for me. Yes, I will make more when my collection is sold, but I am a collector so acquiring more coins is more important than selling.
<< <i>I don't believe CAC guarantees originality. >>
They don't as far as I know. But, many collectors believe this, and also feel the sticker stands for "eye-appeal." Of course many dealers hype it as if it is truth, that know better. And very seldom do I see the folks that are cheerleaders for the factory correct them.
<< <i>
<< <i> I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. >>
Interesting that JA can detect AT through the slab when 3 or 4 PCGS graders examined the coin outside of the slab. His business model
is based on raising doubt about the accuracy of his former employers. >>
My thoughts as well.
<< <i>
<< <i> I once bought a 1800 $5 in a AU50 holder that turned out to be cleaned. I got out of it, but will never make that same mistake again. >>
Did you learn how to spot a cleaning now, or depend on the factory to be 100% accurate on all coins? At the level you buy I would certainly hope you can spot a cleaning no matter how small or how long ago. AT and/or putty I can understand it being tough. But all collectors should be able to know when a coin is cleaned IMO. >>
The coin was bought sight unseen from heritage which was a mistake on its own. Their images did a great job hiding the cleaning. And HA has no return policy. When I got the coin in hand, I knew immediately that it was cleaned.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> I recently returned a coin that was in a PCGS holder, but when I showed it to JA, I was told it was blatant AT. >>
Interesting that JA can detect AT through the slab when 3 or 4 PCGS graders examined the coin outside of the slab. His business model
is based on raising doubt about the accuracy of his former employers. >>
My thoughts as well. >>
I said it once, ill say it again. Because pcgs says so, all of the Silver Eagles with monster taco bell napkin toning must be NT. Right?
Keep believing that.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
If the real criteria for buying something from the 19th or 18th century in a slab rests solely on it ever being cleaned, then I would probably reject 75% of the bust coins currently in holders, and probably 50% of the seated coins. The irony of this situation is that the uncleaned coins from that era, esp. the MS ones, tend to have deeper toning that mutes the luster and lowers the grade. You can rarely have your cake and eat it too. This is why so many settle for bright white dipped 19th century coins. On most of the 19th century bust and seated dipped coins I see the luster has been reduced a notch...no different than cleaning imo.
I've cracked out very clean but toned MS seated PGCS and NGC coins and got them back bagged. Clearly the 2nd time through the graders didn't agree with their original assessment.
JA is just making a market acceptable call on whether he wants to make an offer to buy a coin or not (ie sticker it). If there's doubt, it's rejected. Any collector or dealer can set up
their own stickering operation if they think they can do it better.
roadrunner
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
If thats the case, why do you even need slabs? If you are so well educated, I assume most of your collection must be raw, right?
BigE: with companies like heritage and stacks, a collector in the most desolate area can have a stellar collection without once visiting a store or show. If you saw the price differences between non-CAC and CAC, you would send yours in as well before selling. Stacks and Heritage send in almost everything. There must be a reason for it no?
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Rampage,
If thats the case, why do you even need slabs? If you are so well educated, I assume most of your collection must be raw, right?
BigE: with companies like heritage and stacks, a collector in the most desolate area can have a stellar collection without once visiting a store or show. If you saw the price differences between non-CAC and CAC, you would send yours in as well before selling. Stacks and Heritage send in almost everything. There must be a reason for it no? >>
Not sure about the whole CAC submission process, I was thinking to state that they have not been sent and let customer do it, at least they know they are not rejects. I'll be sure to take good photos so they can see for themselves
If CAC did not exist, coin values would be cut in half. There was too much crap out there that was unidentified for too long. Just look at gold coins. A huge % have been puttied or doctored and eventhe best collectors who can grade do not know it. Now, because of CAC there is huge consumer confidence. Don't think so? Just look at every major auction companies prices realized.
Like it or not, CAC helps the coin market.
<< <i>...at least you won't get a doctored coin with a CAC holder. If you do, JA will buy it back immediately (which he just did for me)... >>
<< <i>
<< <i>...at least you won't get a doctored coin with a CAC holder. If you do, JA will buy it back immediately (which he just did for me)... >>
Laugh as much as you want. But read the thread about the 1804 Large cent with an alterated date so well done that it fooled NGC. They made good on it. Doctoring has become SO good these days, that even long time dealers/collectors can be fooled by it. What bulldozer is saying is that if a similar mistake is made by CAC, they WILL make good on it without a doubt. I guarantee you this is a very rare occurance though.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
When I make big purchases, I buy in PCGS and maybe NGC. They both have guarantees in case they missed something that could affect the price (aside from mechanical errors...which is why it pays to be careful anyway).
All CAC is, imho, is another opinion of a respected HUMAN. JA makes mistakes, from what I have seen/heard, but he also isn't trying to push through as many coins as the TPGS graders and is more selective.
I will ABSOLUTELY still buy a coin even if not CAC'ed. Mark Feld is one of the biggest CAC supporters, I believe, and he still buys coins that aren't CAC'ed.
If one is going to be so hesitant, then maybe one should either stop collecting and go find something they can do themselves, or maybe they should just have someone else go out and find the coins and put them away...and just open their wallet for that person.......
Though, methinks some of this may be due to having more than a fair share of problem coins which could come from trying to slash people on prices to the point that non-problem coins aren't offered as much.....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>PS--This thread needs to go poof with the rest of the CAC threads. >>
No way, until I read this entire thread I had no idea what CAC was.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
a) Standards are adopted (TPG and modified Sheldon Scale).
b) opinions are expensive (TPGs and others who affix labels, such as CAC).
c) The industry thrives off the hobby. *
d) Coins are not as much fun when the coin is taken out of the equation and replaced with silly attitudes and lousy opinions about 1) the standard, or 2) those who try to uphold it.
In the end: let your eye be the judge. Let the coin adjust your attitude, not anything or anyone around it !
<< <i>
<< <i>PS--This thread needs to go poof with the rest of the CAC threads. >>
No way, until I read this entire thread I had no idea what CAC was. >>
I am sure our hosts will be delighted to read this.
Reading some of these posts it seems that there are a lot of people living in glass houses. One poster who ridiculed Ankur spends most of his waking life comparing coins with plate coins in his reference book, hoping to buy plate coins because in his mind that means that they are original and among the finest known. So he criticizes someone for using JA as a crutch while he is using the author of his book as his crutch.
As one poster pointed out, many people who say that they don’t need no stinking $15 stickers are willing to shell out 5% to have a dealer screen auction lots. Others only deal with select dealers whose eyes and skills they can trust. Are they deluding themselves into thinking that they are not paying for professional assistance?
Another fellow has concluded that because his favorite dealer buys coins that are not stickered, it means that stickers are not necessary. OK, but that dealer is a seasoned dealer and former professional grader—are you?
I also love the cliches tossed around here. “Learn to grade.” Great advice. How do you know when you have learned to grade, other than when you discover that your coins are garbage.
And oh, don’t forget “buy the coin not the holder.” Go look at the successful cross-over rate at PCGS. The last time I looked it was under 40%. Those are people who bought the coin not the holder. Hopefully they paid NGC money rather than PCGS money.
CG
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
If CAC did not exist, coin values would be cut in half. There was too much crap out there that was unidentified for too long. Just look at gold coins. A huge % have been puttied or doctored and even the best collectors who can grade do not know it. Now, because of CAC there is huge consumer confidence. Don't think so? Just look at every major auction companies prices realized. Like it or not, CAC helps the coin market.
I have to disagree with some of this. The existence of CAC has cut coin values essentially in half......those of the low end or misgraded variety (C level coins, etc). While maybe not
half but certainly at the 25-35% level.
Look at the weak prices NGC non-stickered coins bring in the market...basically 1/2 pt or more deduction. But on the flip side the value of PCGS CAC coins where there is a strong REG
set demand still in place have really surged. But I would submit that the majority of collectors hold the C level coins rather than the A's and B's. CAC has just expedited the process
of identifying the less desireable coins in each grade range. PCGS secure and plus are doing a similar thing. This has been a bonanza to those dealers selling mostly CAC coins as well
as people who paid extra for high end coins all along...and really got them. Too many collectors were paying high end money from 2002-2009 but still ended up with C coins. If CAC did
not exist a lot of coins would be worth a whole lot more money. This "huge" collector confidence only comes with the higher end and stickered coins, leaving the other 50-75% of coins
out in the cold. This confidence is a sharp 2 edged sword. 15-25% of the coin market has been elevated while 50% has been demoted. It was going to happen eventually, but the process
was sped up via stickering and additional PCGS/NGC attributions.
There certainly seems to be a reasonable need for a post-slab opinion. 2 otherwise identical coins are considered identical out of holders. But place them in different holders and the market will value them differently, and in many cases quite differently. To competent graders the coins are identical. But they too realize that market demand makes their prices different. It is a strange twist on the evolution of coin grading/valuations.
roadrunner
Since I am sure you are referencing my post as the one for mentioning a "favorite dealer" who is a past professional grader and is ok not buying CAC......well, you should re-read my post to understand it a bit better. Nowhere did I state that because he does it does it mean "stickers are not necessary". I think they are fine for an additional opinion, but I think it is pretty "sad" (using "sad" since I am trying not to use harsh words to hurt anyone's gentle feelings) if one will ONLY buy a CAC stickered coin.
Do you ever think CAC does not sticker a coin that YOU think is ok? Or, are you thinking CAC is infallible?
I am sure there are coins that aren't CACed, nor would be, that I would be fine with (as would many others) and I also think that ANYTHING/ANYONE is fallible. Mistakes happen and when it comes to differences of OPINION, they happen as well.
I think the things about the OP and his thread that get people going are that he has bought plenty of problem coins, has been seen to try to beat the price down to a point where it insulted the dealer (and who knows how many others in similar transactions), and his post seems clear that he has now limited his future collection to ONLY coins that has been stickered by CAC or a promise that they will sticker or else be returned.
Sounds more like an investment than collecting to me. Unless one has been in the industry full time, and/or for many years, and/or had the opportunities to see/learn a ton about grading/coins/toning/tooling/etc, then I think it is unreasonable to focus without assistance. However, to post that one needs such a crutch, where there are many other things that can assist, is pretty telling about the poster and his confidence in himself and TPGS, right? Not meant as an insult at all, but rather a statement.
Do I think I could do better? Don't know. I know many know coins better than I do. I know I buy PCGS and have bought CAC coins (never for a premium in my mind, but rather for what I would pay for the coin without it anyway). I don't mind the CAC sticker, but I also won't crutch on it. I know I will continue to buy raw, within levels I am comfortable with (ie...gambling money as if I were in Vegas at Blackjack or Craps). I will buy coins in holders without CAC as well.
To me, it IS ABOUT the coins. And, know what? If I buy a PCGS coin that was doctored and they missed it, I am pretty darn confident that PCGS will step up with their guarantee. Just as I am confident that JA/CAC will step up with his guarantee if he missed something (which, I recall some threads on coins he has "bought back" due to issues).
So, Calgold, given how you generalized my post, pulled out 1 portion of it and twisted it a bit, I am pretty sure the other mentions in your post are similarly generalized and slightly twisted from the original meaning.
PS....I have NO problems with AnkurJ and his desire to only buy CAC.....I just find it telling and limited and when I see a post like that, I can almost smell the fear in the poster and the fact that they are usually fishing for support for their decision or to convince others of the same......"misery loves company" type of thing......posting like that is looking for support that a right decision was made.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment