Repost of Don Willis comments regarding changes to the Genuine Holder (details grading)

ambro51

A few weeks ago on a post regarding Genuine Holdered Coins, Don Willis posted the following:


DonWillis
President, PCGS

Posts: 646
Joined: Nov 2008


Saturday September 24, 2011 3:47 PM


Here is a pre-announcement for all the message board weenies:


Sometime in the next couple weeks PCGS will begin offering genuine with Details grading.

We will continue to offer the current genuine product as our standard service, however you will be able to request genuine with Details. This will be a selection on the submission form.

genuine with Details will always print the problem (Cleaned, Tooled, etc.) on the label as well as the details grade.

Details grades will not be numeric but will be VF, XF, etc.

That's it for now. We'll have more on this later.



PS - we will not be offering "net graded" opinions. This is "details of" only.

(end of copied post from DW)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So we have a change in the Genuine Holder that will increase its value in the marketplace, according to my thoughts. A positive change in the holder which will allow it to compete head on with the NGC/NCS slab. No longer will a dealer be able to hemm and haww and declare your AU details coin in a Genuine slab to actually be a VF and offer you a pittance for it. Collectors can now be armed with a 'grade'.

A positive change I feel, and one that has long reaching implications. For instance, would it now be possible to have PCGS increase the 'points' for a genuine holdered coin in the Registry system? NCG allows 1/2 the details grade value in its registry (for ngc/ncs coins) but does not allow ANY pcgs genuine coins to be included. Will they now offer registry admission to pcgs genuine details graded pieces? Will PCGS up its registry values from P01 basal state to a similar value system to NCG, being 1/2 of the details grade?

This brings up the possibility of genuine holdered, details graded coins also having a traceable price range through the major auction houses.

If nothing else, I think this will increase the number of early coppers in PCGS holders, few of which will stand the scrutiny applied to more modern coins.

ColonialCoinUnion

<< <i>This brings up the possibility of genuine holdered, details graded coins also having a traceable price range through the major auction houses. >>



Given the wide range of coins that could theoretically have the same "details" grade, with completely different levels of eye-appeal and ultimately desirability, pricing will be (and should be) wildly inconsistent.

Staircoins

I am in favor of this change.

I know of folks that have sent problem coins ATS for slabbing just because they had the 'Details' grade on the holder.

mbogoman

<< <i>I am in favor of this change. I know of folks that have sent problem coins ATS for slabbing just because they had the 'Details' grade on the holder. >>



Amen.

Good change.

LanLord

<< <i>

<< <i>I am in favor of this change. I know of folks that have sent problem coins ATS for slabbing just because they had the 'Details' grade on the holder. >>



Amen.

Good change. >>

Yeah, I support this change in how they grade our change.

BillJones

This is a very positive change because there is something to be said for a problem coin that nonetheless has a lot of "meat" as opposed to one that has been worn down to “recognizable.”

fastfreddie

Gee, now that I've gotton rid of my Genie's...

DCW

But... will they be less likely to holder a colonial coin with problems consistent of a 2 to 3 hundred year old piece of metal in a "no problem" holder or will we see an increase in gennie'd old copper?

Hmmm

timcoin

Details and Net grade both, please. AU detail, cleaned, net XF vs. say, AU details, cleaned, net Fine gives me a better idea of the severity of the cleaning in comparison to just AU details, cleaned.

LanceNewmanOCC

.
.
in the competitive business of TPG, this is a logical move

i am for it to be sure to help me as a buyer, seller and collector
.
.
thanks for posting, i hadn't heard a thing about it
.
.

LindeDad

I think there are enough problem free coins in the area I collect that I will stay a snob and not collect coins in Genuine slabs.

BillJones

If I can only afford a coin in a genuine holder, I won't collect it.

The only time recently I've been tempted to buy a piece with a major problem was in the case of an 1801 Jefferson inaugural model by John Reich. The piece is quite rare, and I’d love to own one of those, but the one that has been available has been polished.

golfer72

Jeez, whats next? Prong holders?

Swampboy

<< <i>Here is a pre-announcement for all the message board weenies: >>



Tell me that wasn't Don's exact choice of words.

Baley

Details and Net grade both, please. AU detail, cleaned, net XF vs. say, AU details, cleaned, net Fine gives me a better idea of the severity of the cleaning in comparison to just AU details, cleaned.

this.

the "details" without the "net" part is practically valueless. I can see the details, what I don't know is how bad the problem is. i see this change as an overall negative.

Speaking of which, having the problem spelled out in a word rather than a numerical code will not make me want to buy the coin, Especially without an expert "net grade" opinion.

AMRC

About time. I send everything to NGC that is suspect for just this reason. Having a coin in a Genuine Holder without a details grade is nearly worthless.

howards

Now that Gennie coins have a grade, will they be listable in the registry?

DonWillis

The Genuine with Details service is now available.

New submission forms are being printed.

We will announce this next week but you can write it in your submission today!

Myqqy

<< <i>The only time recently I've been tempted to buy a piece with a major problem was in the case of an 1801 Jefferson inaugural model by John Reich. The piece is quite rare, and I’d love to own one of those, but the one that has been available has been polished >>



Polished or not, that sounds like an awesome piece! I would be ok with a polished example...

RYK

I like the old Genuine way. I see the "details" grade as a means for the unscrupulous to manipulate newbies and, IMO, it lessens the brand.

Coins911

Is there a fee for this?

mkman123

extra cost for this I'm guessing? Why? The fees already are expensive!

golfer72

<< <i>Details and Net grade both, please. AU detail, cleaned, net XF vs. say, AU details, cleaned, net Fine gives me a better idea of the severity of the cleaning in comparison to just AU details, cleaned.

this.

the "details" without the "net" part is practically valueless. I can see the details, what I don't know is how bad the problem is. i see this change as an overall negative.

Speaking of which, having the problem spelled out in a word rather than a numerical code will not make me want to buy the coin, Especially without an expert "net grade" opinion. >>

Why is it that you can see the details but not how severe the problem is? I dont get it?

mbbiker

I like the fact it will be just be a details grade and no net grade. This way it gives you a starting point pricewise of a non problem coin and allows you the collector to actually look at the coin and not the plastic and deside how much the "problem" affects YOU because a scratched coin may give you nightmares but someone else may come along and see the same scratched coin and not net grade it nearly as much as you would because they prefer a scratch over a heavy cleaning...

DonWillis

Is there a fee for this?

No extra fee. You pick whether you want the standard Genuine holder (that's the default), Genuine with details, or no Genuine holder.


I see the "details" grade as a means for the unscrupulous to manipulate newbies


I agree and that's why we will always print the problem first then the details grade. ex. "CLEANED VF Details".

leothelyon

Details grades will not be numeric but will be VF, XF, etc.

So a problem coin can never grade higher than MS since numeric grades are omitted. But MS stands for a Mint State and a assumed MS60 grade doesn't sound correct with a problem coin. UNC (uncirculated) may be the better term IMO.

coolest

I completely approve

jt88

This is long over due. PCGS is always slow to adapt to the market requirements.

HoledandCreative

Perfect.

timcoin

<< <i>

<< <i>Details and Net grade both, please. AU detail, cleaned, net XF vs. say, AU details, cleaned, net Fine gives me a better idea of the severity of the cleaning in comparison to just AU details, cleaned.

this.

the "details" without the "net" part is practically valueless. I can see the details, what I don't know is how bad the problem is. i see this change as an overall negative.

Speaking of which, having the problem spelled out in a word rather than a numerical code will not make me want to buy the coin, Especially without an expert "net grade" opinion. >>

Why is it that you can see the details but not how severe the problem is? I dont get it? >>



It can be tough to see how badly a coin is tooled, cleaned, or scratched in a picture. Details are generally much easier to see in my experience. A net grade would make it easier to determine a market value for the coin as well. I think most people would agree that not all cleaned, scratched, and tooled coins are equally damaged.

relicsncoins

When considering a coin purchase, the more information the better.

icsoccer

Change for the better!

halfcentman

<< <i>I am in favor of this change.

I know of folks that have sent problem coins ATS for slabbing just because they had the 'Details' grade on the holder. >>



So am I. The current holders with GENUINE and some code blend in too much with the other slabs.

NGC's system of using a purple insert, an adjectival sharpness grade along with using verbiage for the problem is more friendly.

Very smart marketing move by PCGS. I do hope they change the color of the insert.

leothelyon

The complaints are likely lopsided. Those who are more complacent buying genuine holder-ed coins likely far out number those who bytch. More likely a seller verses the buyer dilemma or they all frequent here ie; the weenies!

mozin

The only "Genuine" holdered coins I want to own are the very rare Capped Bust Half Dollar marriages. I could care less about what PCGS or NGC place on the holder for such rare coins R5 or better, besides "Genuine". I will not buy any R1-4 CBHs in "Genuine" labeled holders. JMHO

scottgardener

I am very happy to see this. I always thought it unfair that both markets and the set registry seem to treat better a problem-free VG8 than a somewhat conspicuously improperly cleaned but otherwise uncirculated coin. I fear a lot of coins are getting rubbed down as pocket pieces just to rub away hairlines, going down to go up, like they were waiting for an elevator at Dragon*Con.

Lakesammman

Interesting. There must be a demand for the service.

Last year I was encouraged by PCGS to cross a coin from NGC to PCGS because the description of the problem on the label looked "tacky".

lordmarcovan

<< <i>If nothing else, I think this will increase the number of early coppers in PCGS holders, few of which will stand the scrutiny applied to more modern coins. >>



My thoughts exactly. I've got a 1798 cent a detecting buddy of mine dug recently. It's got slight environmental damage from being in the ground 200+ years, and probably wouldn't grade in the traditional sense, but it would be nice to have in a Genuine holder confirming that it has AU details.



When will this change be effective? I just renewed my membership and will have a submission going off relatively soon, but I don't know if the change will happen soon enough. If so, great- the 1798 cent may go off to PCGS. If not, it might just end up on BST as a raw coin.

golfer72

<< <i>

<< <i>If nothing else, I think this will increase the number of early coppers in PCGS holders, few of which will stand the scrutiny applied to more modern coins. >>



My thoughts exactly. I've got a 1798 cent a detecting buddy of mine dug recently. It's got slight environmental damage from being in the ground 200+ years, and probably wouldn't grade in the traditional sense, but it would be nice to have in a Genuine holder confirming that it has AU details.



When will this change be effective? I just renewed my membership and will have a submission going off relatively soon, but I don't know if the change will happen soon enough. If so, great- the 1798 cent may go off to PCGS. If not, it might just end up on BST as a raw coin. >>

Why do you need PCGS to tell you what you already know? Cant eevryone see the coin is damaged but would be an AU if not damaged?