In the days before TPGs . . . Not a pretty story.
AMRC
Posts: 4,280 ✭✭✭✭✭
If anyone ever wondered what they days of coin collecting were like before TPGs really took hold please consider this story.
Recently I was hired by a family to liquidate a collection of sizable size and worth that had belonged to their father. The gentleman was highly educated and did most of his collecting from the mid-seventies through the mid-eighties. The collection contained many coins that we as collectors would love to own. One of my favorites was the 1895 Proof Morgan. All of these coins were raw and held mostly in Capitol plastic holders. There were two complete sets of Morgans (except only one 1895 Proof) but two of everything else. There were also two complete sets of Carson City Morgans and 2 complete sets of O-mint coins. There was also a full set if Trade Dollars including ALL of the proofs. There was also many, many other coins. I was a kid in a candy store and would have gone through it even if they did not pay me.
One important point is that with the collection there were receipts and invoices for many of the coins in the set. These ranged from dealers that are prominent and still active today to some I have never heard of.
On my first pass I pulled what were the obvious keys. They were:
1895-P Proof Morgan
1856 Proof Flying Eagle in BU
1877 Indian Head in Uncirculated
1893-S Morgan in AU
1795 Flowing Hair in XF
1893-CC in Uncirculated.
The good news is the 1895 Proof Morgan came back in NGC PF58 problem free. However this was some of the other results.
The 93-S is not listed above but came back in AU Details Whizzed.
Unfortunately none of these problems on these coins were ever listed on the invoices and only once was a coin listed as whizzed on one of the invoices.
The only conclusion I want to draw from this was that the need for the Third Party Grading system was what the hobby really needed at the time and I applaud people like Hall, and Salzburg for getting this into place.
Recently I was hired by a family to liquidate a collection of sizable size and worth that had belonged to their father. The gentleman was highly educated and did most of his collecting from the mid-seventies through the mid-eighties. The collection contained many coins that we as collectors would love to own. One of my favorites was the 1895 Proof Morgan. All of these coins were raw and held mostly in Capitol plastic holders. There were two complete sets of Morgans (except only one 1895 Proof) but two of everything else. There were also two complete sets of Carson City Morgans and 2 complete sets of O-mint coins. There was also a full set if Trade Dollars including ALL of the proofs. There was also many, many other coins. I was a kid in a candy store and would have gone through it even if they did not pay me.
One important point is that with the collection there were receipts and invoices for many of the coins in the set. These ranged from dealers that are prominent and still active today to some I have never heard of.
On my first pass I pulled what were the obvious keys. They were:
1895-P Proof Morgan
1856 Proof Flying Eagle in BU
1877 Indian Head in Uncirculated
1893-S Morgan in AU
1795 Flowing Hair in XF
1893-CC in Uncirculated.
The good news is the 1895 Proof Morgan came back in NGC PF58 problem free. However this was some of the other results.
The 93-S is not listed above but came back in AU Details Whizzed.
Unfortunately none of these problems on these coins were ever listed on the invoices and only once was a coin listed as whizzed on one of the invoices.
The only conclusion I want to draw from this was that the need for the Third Party Grading system was what the hobby really needed at the time and I applaud people like Hall, and Salzburg for getting this into place.
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Comments
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<< <i>The only conclusion I want to draw from this was that the need for the Third Party Grading system was what the hobby really needed at the time and I applaud people like Hall, and Salzburg for getting this into place. >>
i concur
it is quite easy for me to pick on the top TPGs, but I have always supported what they have done, are doing and will do for the preservation, authentication and identification of all numismatic items.
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PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Thats pretty scary and sad! All aside, I bet the family will still make a profit depending on what was paid for the coins. >>
As stated, many of these coins were bought in the mid-eighties at the height of that frenzy. Many of the prices paid that are still higher than today. But no doubt the Gold in the collection had increased by 7X.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
<< <i> These ranged from dealers that are prominent and still active today >>
So.... have you considered spilling some beans on who these dealers are?
The problem coins were reserved not for dealer/dealer inventory, but sometimes pawned off on unsuspecting collectors who were also in it for investment purposes. It was a risky operation in hopes the coins could never be tracked back to the dealer, but there were those who kept accurate records, as in the case of your client. These comments do not bode well for dealers selling coins in this era, but it happened all the time.
There was nothing illegal back then about a little misrepresentation.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
The only conclusion I want to draw from this was that the need for the Third Party Grading system was what the hobby really needed at the time and I applaud people like Hall, and Salzburg for getting this into place.
Yes, totally agree.
One question for members to ponder, but I suspect most of those it applies to will not...
Why would anyone spend more than $50 on a raw coin today?
<< <i>AMRC stated...
The only conclusion I want to draw from this was that the need for the Third Party Grading system was what the hobby really needed at the time and I applaud people like Hall, and Salzburg for getting this into place.
Yes, totally agree.
One question for members to ponder, but I suspect most of those it applies to will not...
Why would anyone spend more than $50 on a raw coin today? >>
That's an easy one ... because some collectors can grade coins and are able to detect problem coins. Back in the "olden days" collectors had to have decent grading and problem detection skills or they were eaten alive by unscrupulous dealers who offered coins at "bargain" prices. There never has been a Santa Claus in numismatics; you have always had to pay a decent price for decent coins. Today, TPGs having provided a wonderful numismatic Novocaine to shield collectors from the burden of knowledge and skills.
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
You had to know what a cleaned or whizzed coin looked like, because this sort of thing was never disclosed to the buyer. I never bought an 09 S VDB Cent or a 16 D Dime, because if you bought a fake, of which there were many, you had no recourse.
The best bets for buying coins were either at Bid Boards, auctions, or other collectors. You had to know how to grade. The coins I bought from Coin World ads always had problems which were not disclosed beforehand, so I stopped buying coins which I did not see in hand. I also bought 12 GSA CC $s from the Mint in 1979.
The most interesting venue were the George Bennett auctions at the Veteran's Hall in Van Nuys, CA. My biggest score was a 36 S Walker I bought for $35 which eventually got into a PC 6 holder. My biggest blunder was a 31 D Dime which looked like a BU Gem except for a scratch on Miss Liberty's cheek, which I missed. I paid $75 and lost money when I sold it 30 years later (it would have graded MS 63 FB).
I was able to trade the 5 rolls of low end circulated IHCs I bought for $45 (no one wanted this stuff) thirty years later for an 09 P IHC in a PC 5 RD OGH. I picked up a set of Unc. Roosevelt Dimes, avg. grade MS 63 or 64 for $19. You could pick up FB Unc to BU common date Mercs for a dollar or two. Virtually all Unc. Roosevelt Dimes were cheap, because again, no one wanted them.
Of the 12 GSA CC $s, eight were the ugliest Unc. Morgans I have ever seen in my life. They were so ugly, that I sold them for cost to Superior Stamp & Coin, because every time I looked at them, I needed a barf bag. Eventually I sent 4 to PCGS. One came back in a 4 holder, which I sold to Gus Tiso for cost plus grading fees. I made some money on the two which came back in PC 5 holders. I still have the 84 CC in a PC 6 holder; that's one nice Morgan.
On the whole, I think the TPGs have been good for the hobby. There's a but, however. This facilitated more 'investors' and slab buyers -- more people who either didn't know how to grade or didn't care -- getting into the hobby. The TPGs facilitated more liquidity into the hobby, which was put on steroids by the advent of the internet.
Buying coins became easier. The TPGs did a good job in making it easier to buy desirable coins often counterfeited like the 1916 D Dime, and most problem coins would not be slabbed.
Again, however, there was a downside. More people were relying on the grade on the slab and not really knowing the difference between a just made it coin and a high end coin for the grade. Furthermore, to me, grading standards have changed over the years. While I think the worst abuses of numismatics have been neutralized by the advent of the TPGs, many problems still persist.
I can tell you stories after lining up type coins costing between $2,000 and $20,000. I lined up the same date and variety of coins in the same grade and color designation by the same grading service. Let's just say it has been 'interesting.'
Lastly, as we all know, someone with a good eye and not good ethics could make out like a bandit selling low end coins for the grade. While it's not the "bad old days," it's still "caveat emptor."
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
Oh....one more difference, back then novices would get cheated by paying big money for AU and whizzed coins sold as high grade uncs., and today they pay big money for otherwise basically face value coins and bullion in MS70 and PR70 holders.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
If anything...these are THE 2 KEY DATES from that entire collection!
<< <i>So, what did the 1884 & 1885 Proof Trade Dollars grade?
If anything...these are THE 2 KEY DATES from that entire collection! >>
Not back yet. There are over 300 coins at the graders, half of which is in a single bulk submission. I held back 40 or so that would not grade even with a note from God attached. And there are about 40 or 50 coins that were were sent to NGC specifically because they should have at least a details grade due to value. Everything I was pretty sure would grade is at PCGS.
<< <i>When it comes to grading raw coins, dealers will typically undergrade when buying and overgrade when selling. >>
this is true for collectors as well.
<< <i>With NGC and PCGS slabbed coins this practice is much more difficult to get away with. >>
Correct, except they always charge a bit north of price guide for graded coins.
The name is LEE!
...Kid in a candy store - FOR SURE
It was indeed a fairly short list back in the 1972-1986 pre-slab era of dealers who would give a customer fair value for a coin purchased. Many of our old sages today were some of the
biggest crooks of that era. It's amazing what the passage of time can do to a tarnished reputation. My personal experiences ordering from national dealers via mail order in those days resulted in about a 75% return rate. It was pretty common to find cleaned "unc" type coins with impaired or essentially no luster. For every Renrob, NPI, or Larry Whitlow back then that knew what they were doing, there were 9 others that you needed to stay far away from.
roadrunner
<< <i> TPGs having provided a wonderful numismatic Novocaine to shield collectors from the burden of knowledge an skill >>
Great line...
<< <i>
<< <i> TPGs having provided a wonderful numismatic Novocaine to shield collectors from the burden of knowledge an skill >>
Great line... >>
Maybe, but I have also said many times that having the opportunity to look at a lot of coins in PCGS holders is one of the fastest/best ways to get that knowledge and skill. So it can be Novocaine, but it also a great learning tool as well.
<< <i>Maybe, but I have also said many times that having the opportunity to look at a lot of coins in PCGS holders is one of the fastest/best ways to get that knowledge and skill. So it can be Novocaine, but it also a great learning tool as well. >>
I didn't mean to imply that the TPG's aren't a huge plus for the hobby. I believe they are. I just enjoyed Astrorat's turn of phrase...
It really seems there was a conspiracy to sell problem coins, or AU coins as MS63s, and most of the dealers who sold directly to collectors were involved in it.
Commems and Early Type
<< <i>AMRC - I'm curious about what you thought these coins should grade. Were they obviously problem coins that the original dealers should have noticed? >>
Many of them were clear problems (and is why I sent those to NGC, yet others were just over graded and in some cases coins were listed as just MS60+ that will grade well. All of the business strike Trade dollars are all hairlined but the proofs look intact. And there will be some good surprises in the set as well. The 6 1889-CC's mostly looked OK.
<< <i>AMRC stated...
The only conclusion I want to draw from this was that the need for the Third Party Grading system was what the hobby really needed at the time and I applaud people like Hall, and Salzburg for getting this into place.
Yes, totally agree.
One question for members to ponder, but I suspect most of those it applies to will not...
Why would anyone spend more than $50 on a raw coin today? >>
My cut-off is $100.
<< <i>
<< <i>AMRC stated...
The only conclusion I want to draw from this was that the need for the Third Party Grading system was what the hobby really needed at the time and I applaud people like Hall, and Salzburg for getting this into place.
Yes, totally agree.
One question for members to ponder, but I suspect most of those it applies to will not...
Why would anyone spend more than $50 on a raw coin today? >>
My cut-off is $100. >>
I joined that club when I joined this forum......Only once and awhile do I stray down the path to RAW and submit.