original vs lightly cleaned coin question

jesbroken

I see, on several different coin forums, posts regarding dealers cracking out gennie coins and offering them raw with no mention of the crackout or previous nograde. I have never done this, but have thought about it and did not because of the ire raised in posts. I wonder how many, truthfully, are able to tell a truly original coin(especially 100+ year old coin) from a lightly cleaned and retoned coin. I mean, really, a percentage of buyers. Give me you opinion. I just wonder how many raw coins on ebay, bst, craigslist(GodForbid) and other sales venues have been cleaned that the seller is totally unaware of. And can we expect every seller of coins to be an absolute purist when it comes to original coins? I would really like the forums opinions on this. Many gennie coins, after 2 or so submissions are finally slabbed, and is regularly admitted to on the forum. What is truly the difference. Do the sellers tell the buying public that the coin was gennied once or twice before making it, don't think so. I feel a true collector should buy what suits them with regards to eye appeal and their grade, now buying for resale becomes a bit of a sticky situation.
Thanks for viewing and offering your opinions.
Jim

Elcontador

A number of lightly cleaned Draped Bust coins have been deemed to be market acceptable over the years, especially Bust $s. I avoid them, but to each his / her own. This does not seem to be the case based on coins I have seen newer than Classic Large Cent vintage.

BillJones

I generally agree with your point of view. In the old days sometimes a coin got body bagged unfairly. I had this happen to me a few times, and I re-submitted the coin usually to the other leading service, and it got a grade. I sold that coin with a perfectly clear conscience because there was no reason, in my mind, for the negative reaction from the TPG. The guys who assign grades at the TPGs are not perfect, and grading can differ among the experts.

There are some purists who scream that any coin that has been dipped is “cleaned.” That is totally false. In fact some of the coins that these purists love have been dipped and have re-toned over time. Yet they insist that any coin that ever been dipped, if they can determine or imagine it, should be permanently ostracized. They are entitled to their opinion, but their opinions should not have a negative affect on the value of other people’s holdings.

And yes, I have purchased that I knew had been dipped because the coin and the price suited my needs. Not every coin is as important to me as other pieces. If I can save some money on a coin that I don’t regard as highly, I’ll do it.

Here is an example. This 1874 with arrows half dollar has been dipped, but this is not one of my A#1 type coins, and I thought that the coin was attractive. And even better an attractive original coin when I could have found it would have cost me as much as a couple thousand more.

DieClash

I don't mind that half being dipped and retoned over the years. It's still a very nice collectible coin. But don't let Realone read this thread!




<< <i>I generally agree with your point of view. In the old days sometimes a coin got body bagged unfairly. I had this happen to me a few times, and I re-submitted the coin usually to the other leading service, and it got a grade. I sold that coin with a perfectly clear conscience because there was no reason, in my mind, for the negative reaction from the TPG. The guys who assign grades at the TPGs are not perfect, and grading can differ among the experts.

There are some purists who scream that any coin that has been dipped is “cleaned.” That is totally false. In fact some of the coins that these purists love have been dipped and have re-toned over time. Yet they insist that any coin that ever been dipped, if they can determine or imagine it, should be permanently ostracized. They are entitled to their opinion, but their opinions should not have a negative affect on the value of other people’s holdings.

And yes, I have purchased that I knew had been dipped because the coin and the price suited my needs. Not every coin is as important to me as other pieces. If I can save some money on a coin that I don’t regard as highly, I’ll do it.

Here is an example. This 1874 with arrows half dollar has been dipped, but this is not one of my A#1 type coins, and I thought that the coin was attractive. And even better an attractive original coin when I could have found it would have cost me as much as a couple thousand more.


>>

shorecoll

To me it's more about disclosure than cleaning. I appreciate the dealers who tell me it's been dipped or cleaned or whatever, but also whether or not it was damaged. Did PCGS or NGC genny or details it because the cleaning actually damaged or hairlined it? The negative threads are mostly about lying about condition, IMHO, more than cracking.

BaseballAbs

Uh, BJ I thought dipped coins are cleaned and your saying that's false. It doesn't just have to be whipped with rag or whizzed with a wire brush or placed in chemicals to be cleaned. I would think dipping counts. What is dipping anyway? Water only? Perhaps a spot of vinegar added? Lightly cleaned maybe, but still cleaned. I'm little confused with your statement.

Edited to add, I have seen dipped coins that have regained a skin that I think look great. Some coins over time you may never be able to tell is my guess. Or I'm just not experienced enough to catch them all. I usually can find some tells that's for sure.

Kove

<< <i>Uh, BJ I thought dipped coins are cleaned and your saying that's false. It doesn't just have to be whipped with rag or whizzed with a wire brush or placed in chemicals to be cleaned. I would think dipping counts. What is dipping anyway? Water only? Perhaps a spot of vinegar added? Lightly cleaned maybe, but still cleaned. I'm little confused with your statement. >>



Dipping is NOT cleaning under the PCGS definition. The following is the PCGS description for what will land a coin in a .92 "cleaned" holder:

"Surface damage due to any form of abrasive cleaning. "Cleaned" covers a wide range or appearances, from a grossly polished coin to one where faint hairlines can be seen only at a particular angle or in only one area on an otherwise perfectly normal coin. This is perhaps the most frustrating of all the No Grades, because subtle cleaning is often difficult to detect in less-than-optimal grading conditions. "Dipping" (the removal of toning with a chemical bath) is not considered cleaning under this definition."

DaveG

BaseballAbs, here is a handy explanation:

"Dipping" is exposing a coin to an acidic solution, such as E-Zest.

Dipped coins are not considered "cleaned" - they are considered "Dipped."

"Cleaned" means abrasively cleaned, such as polishing a coin with toothpaste or exposing it to a harsh acid.

Exposing a coin to acetone is neither "cleaning" nor "dipping."

BillJones

<< <i>Uh, BJ I thought dipped coins are cleaned and your saying that's false. It doesn't just have to be whipped with rag or whizzed with a wire brush or placed in chemicals to be cleaned. I would think dipping counts. What is dipping anyway? Water only? Perhaps a spot of vinegar added? Lightly cleaned maybe, but still cleaned. I'm little confused with your statement.

Edited to add, I have seen dipped coins that have regained a skin that I think look great. Some coins over time you may never be able to tell is my guess. Or I'm just not experienced enough to catch them all. I usually can find some tells that's for sure. >>



As others have said, dipping involves immersing a piece into a weak acid solution to remove surface tarnish. This involves a chemical reaction as opposed to a physical action that result in fine scratches (hairlines) in the coin’s surface which is market unacceptable. Dipping is sometimes (although not as often as it is has been done) necessary because natural toning is not always attractive or even desirable. A quick dip can “restore” a coin, but it can cause damage too.

Excessive dipping can impair a coin to point where it is not gradable. If the coin is left in the solution for too long; if the solution is too strong; or if the procedure is done repeatedly, the coin can be dulled and damaged to the point of a “genuine” holder.

Some coins have been dipped and have retoned in a way that many collectors cannot detect it. The 1874 half dollar I posted above could have token on some blue and gold album toning that some collectors find exceedingly attractive. Yet it would be a dipped coin.

DoubleEagle59

I believe dipping is not cleaning.

All cases of 'cleaning' are bad.

Some cases of 'dipping' are bad.

Let's not kid ourselves, for those of you who will never own a 'dipped' coin and feel dipping is cleaning, then I would say toss 80% of your pre 1930 'white' coins in the trash heap.

BillJones

<< <i>Let's not kid ourselves, for those of you who will never own a 'dipped' coin and feel dipping is cleaning, then I would say toss 80% of your pre 1930 'white' coins in the trash heap. >>



Amen!

If it is a pre 1930 silver coin that is not a Morgan or Peace dollar, and it's bright white, the chances are slim that it has not been dipped.

coinhunters

The best advice I can offer you, is straightforward . Know Your Dealer . As it goes with any business, but especially with this type, knowing the practices of the folks that you want to do business with, is a Primary issue when selecting a Numismatic Dealer. The second suggestion is to continually develop your own grading abilities.

Frankcoins

Once again...(actually about 100 times again) DIPPING in numismatics refers to ONE SPECIFIC THING... use of a soapy thiourea [ SC(NH2)2 ] solution
(trade names E-Z-Est, Tarn-X, Jewel-Luster) which reverses the silver sulfide tarnishing process on silver coins, leaving the silver on the coin and releasing
the sulfide as "rotten egg" gas. It does not work by "acid eating up the metal" as commonly claimed. Heavy tarnish, or repeated tarnishing and dipping cycles
DOES cumulatively affect the LUSTER (thus the eye appeal and grade.) Only years of experience (dip some lower value silver coins, note the results and how
they are viewed and valued by other numismatists and the grading services) can give the collector or dealer a feel for which coins should and should not be dipped.

Frankcoins

<< <i>I believe dipping is not cleaning.

All cases of 'cleaning' are bad.

>>



Many copper coins have been SAVED by harsh cleaning when they have started to corrode. Just like an rusting auto fender that must either
be cleaned to the bare metal or it will destroy itself.