Puttied gold
RYK
Posts: 35,800 ✭✭✭✭✭
Over the years here, I have been part of numerous discussions on the topic of puttied gold coins. There are many folks who deny the possibility that there could possibly be puttied gold coins in PCGS holders. After all, the graders are professionals, how could this happen? Well, it happens because a good putty job is designed to trick the pros and only over time does it come apparent to everyone, including hacks like myself.
Today, I had the opportunity to view an obviously puttied gold coin in a PCGS OGH XF-40 holder. You can see by the photos below that there is a milky greenish white cast in the left obverse field and over the portrait and inside the wreath on the reverse. This is a fairly dramatic case of a coin that likely "turned" in the holder. I doubt that the coin had this appearance when it was slabbed. Most puttied coins that I have seen (and owned!) have been considerably less obvious.
I am posting this photo because some, in the past, have suggested that since no one can produce a photo of a puttied coin, it must not really be an issue. The fact is that most cases are far less apparent and extremely difficult to capture in an image.
BTW, the presence of putty does not necessarily mean this is a "bad coin". The putty can be dipped off, and perhaps the coin is very attractive and desriable underneath--or perhaps not.
Today, I had the opportunity to view an obviously puttied gold coin in a PCGS OGH XF-40 holder. You can see by the photos below that there is a milky greenish white cast in the left obverse field and over the portrait and inside the wreath on the reverse. This is a fairly dramatic case of a coin that likely "turned" in the holder. I doubt that the coin had this appearance when it was slabbed. Most puttied coins that I have seen (and owned!) have been considerably less obvious.
I am posting this photo because some, in the past, have suggested that since no one can produce a photo of a puttied coin, it must not really be an issue. The fact is that most cases are far less apparent and extremely difficult to capture in an image.
BTW, the presence of putty does not necessarily mean this is a "bad coin". The putty can be dipped off, and perhaps the coin is very attractive and desriable underneath--or perhaps not.
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Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
These were not intended to be trick coins for us, they were from the regular inventory of reputable national dealers that loan the coins for use at the ANA. I'm not talking about a handful of coins, I'm talking about a couple of dozen over the course of the week. The coin doctors are very deceptive, as this stuff is almost undetectable visually when it goes through the TPGs.
That is a good example of a puttied coin. I think that putty (and foreign substances in general) is more common on TPG-graded gold coins than most collectors realize. Over time, the puttied surface often turns to a whitish or bluish tint, and the effects on a coin's surface are difficult to identify without proper lighting and viewing angle.
Thanks for posting.
<< <i>How does one color the putty to match the rest of the coin? Or is it recolored after the putty is applied? >>
As BloodMan mention it doesn't haze over until months or sometimes even years after it's been though a TPG service for grading as it's applied so thinly.
Although RYK is only pointing out gold, white untoned Morgan $1's are also major culprits of putty.
Check out some of my 1794 Large Cents on www.coingallery.org
<< <i>I took Intermediate Grading at the ANA Summer Seminar a couple of weeks ago. It was surprising how many of the gold coins were puttied, in holders from both major TPGs.
These were not intended to be trick coins for us, they were from the regular inventory of reputable national dealers that loan the coins for use at the ANA. I'm not talking about a handful of coins, I'm talking about a couple of dozen over the course of the week. The coin doctors are very deceptive, as this stuff is almost undetectable visually when it goes through the TPGs. >>
WOW! The course sounds like a very good experience and very eye opening on top of that. Yikes!
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Really hard to say from the photo.
This coin took a trip to Far Hills, and was rejected. I wish they'd explain why when they do that; apparently they do so in person (re: AnkurJ); perhaps putty is why.
So. This begs the question- conserve or don't conserve? I am categorically opposed to the practice but if it leads to the removal of doctoring, perhaps two wrongs can make a right?
<< <i>Is it more ethical to do a job that can be detected by any competent numismatist, or to do a job that cannot be detected by anyone? And if it cannot be detected by anyone, how could it be a bad thing? >>
This is an example where doctoring is a bad thing even if it cannot be detected when initially performed.
<< <i>A basic question: Is the purpose of puttying to simulate mint luster, or is it to conceal nicks/scrapes/scratches or signs of cleaning? >>
Nothing to do with luster as it's body filler used to conceal hits, ticks, marks, scrapes, etc to achieve a higher grade.
<< <i>I have actually seen doctors puttying Morgan Dollars at shows, using something that looks like or is dental wax. >>
Could be the stuff that turns brown over time instead of hazing up like putty.
<< <i>
<< <i>A basic question: Is the purpose of puttying to simulate mint luster, or is it to conceal nicks/scrapes/scratches or signs of cleaning? >>
Nothing to do with luster as it's body filler used to conceal hits, ticks, marks, scrapes, etc to achieve a higher grade. >>
Thanks. Does "thumbing" (nose grease) accomplish the same purpose?
<< <i>
<< <i>A basic question: Is the purpose of puttying to simulate mint luster, or is it to conceal nicks/scrapes/scratches or signs of cleaning? >>
Nothing to do with luster as it's body filler used to conceal hits, ticks, marks, scrapes, etc to achieve a higher grade. >>
Also used to hide hairlines which usually indicates a cleaning.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I have little knowledge of gold. Of course, due to that lack of kniowledge in that specific area, I always buy certified, but as we can see, that may not always be a perfect answer to an undoctored coin.
Drunner
(A few gold coins in Doilies!)
Steven Duckor has estimated that of "uncirculated better-date Saint Gaudens Double Eagles, in PCGS or NGC holders, 15% have been doctored." [ref]
At least with top TPGs, there is a guarantee to protect you.
Nobody is perfect. It is how we react to our mistakes that separates us, and by all accounts PCGS stands behind their coins.
As collectors, I think we are fortunate in this regard.
<< <i>It's hardest to view putty at the straight-on angle, as the light reflects through the thinnest layer of putty if there is any. It's easier to detect if you rotate the coin at a very steep angle to your eyes, almost like you're looking at the edge, with a strong light behind it. This way, the light will travel through a thicker layer of putty to reach your eyes. If there's a thin film messing with the reflectivity of the metal, the steeper angle will help. >>
100% correct, in my experience (which is limited to one coin).
A steep (i.e. "low") light was used in the photograph in the post above.
Edit: Laura probably forgot, but I have been discussing puttied gold here for at least five years. Here's an earlier thread:
Link
There have been at least a couple dozen others. Search "puttied" and "putty" to see them.
in the top TPG slab.
I did not find out about it until I sent it to CAC about a year later who identified
the coin as having been puttied.
Talk about feeling sick yto my stomach.
Although I cannot prove anything the coin had come
out of a Superior sale........let's just say I avoid buying
coins from Bohhams and Butterfield auctions.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>This happened to me when I purchased a high five figure gold early classic coin
in the top TPG slab.
I did not find out about it until I sent it to CAC about a year later who identified
the coin as having been puttied.
Talk about feeling sick yto my stomach.
Although I cannot prove anything the coin had come
out of a Superior sale........let's just say I avoid buying
coins from Bohhams and Butterfield auctions. >>
If PCGS graders, who have a raw coin in hand, cannot detect putty, how can the folks at CAC do it looking through a slab?
<< <i>
<< <i>This happened to me when I purchased a high five figure gold early classic coin
in the top TPG slab.
I did not find out about it until I sent it to CAC about a year later who identified
the coin as having been puttied.
Talk about feeling sick yto my stomach.
Although I cannot prove anything the coin had come
out of a Superior sale........let's just say I avoid buying
coins from Bohhams and Butterfield auctions. >>
If PCGS graders, who have a raw coin in hand, cannot detect putty, how can the folks at CAC do it looking through a slab? >>
Putty often changes over time. Often the CAC evaluates the coin years later.
It is a beginner mistake to assume that the appearance of a coin will never change in a slab over time. This applies to putty, ATing, red copper, etc.
I have learned something today.
Steve
<< <i>Look, our thead made the "Hot Topics".
Edit: Laura probably forgot, but I have been discussing puttied gold here for at least five years. Here's an earlier thread:
Link
There have been at least a couple dozen others. Search "puttied" and "putty" to see them. >>
Excellent
I found this interesting:
<< <i>Other major players have snickered my 'consumer advocate roll" is merely for PR and business >>
An interesting question is why don't more dealers take on a "consumer advocate role"? One would hope that it would be easy for a dealer to come out and say one is against putty.
Also, why does it seem so difficult for the PNG to say it is against doctoring techniques like putty?
<< <i>Since 1999, there have been nine auction records for PCGS MS62 1856-D half eagles. These range from a low of $10,350 (for a piece covered with putty) to a high of $20,700 with most results in the $12,000-14,000 range. >>
What other dealers talk about putty?
Most dealers avoid public lengthy discussions of the dark underbelly of the coin biz. If you get to know some dealers well, you will learn a lot of eye-opening things, but these are things that will not get posted publicly for everyone to read.
Also, why does it seem so difficult for the PNG to say it is against doctoring techniques like putty?
Because then the PNG would be obligated to do something about it. If you live in the Himalayas and do not believe in the Yeti, you are not obligated to go hunting for it. (Perhaps a bad analogy, since I do not yet have an image of the Yeti to post
I sold it to a dealer earlier this year and he told me afterward another dealer told him it was puddied. He took it to PCGS, they fixed it and put it back into a 64 holder. I believe the dealer then sold it...
What Kove said is true you have look at the coin at a steep angle and you can see it clearly. After this experience I know I've owned at least one other like this...it was a rare date 11-D. I think it looked similar to this so I thought it was just normal when it was seen on the 12-P. I've now learned what to look for. In fact, at the Money Show in Sacramento I saw several gold pieces in the auction that had the same look.
jom
I also thank PCGS for introducing the Coin Sniffer; I hope that Secure Plus soon becomes standard with all grading. I recently had my favorite $20 Saint regraded under Secure Plus for peace of mind, and I was relieved that it indeed has an original surface.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
Some reaction and thoughts.
I have been invited to join the PNG more then once and chose not too because of their lack of a stand or action on doctoring of all sorts including puttying. I hope those working from within the organization over time will have success for positive change where I could eventually reconsider my decision.
I am a small dealer but totally opposed to altering a coin's surface to hide marks, hairlines or add detail such as creating Full Head quarters or split bands.
The only acceptable conservation of a coin in my view is PVC removal or similar debris/verdigris where metal layers are not removed from the coin itself. Without this type of conversation a coin can continue to suffer damage and also "turn" in a holder after being graded.
TPG's are trying and doing what they can, and I feel doing a better job then in the past at catching messed with coins. But remember they are looking at and grading a coin in a fast production line system in somewhere like 8-10 seconds. Experienced graders more often the not, spot the problem coins but not always. A reviewer who can take more time can often spot things.
Auctions! Do not spend your money buying a coin from an auction unless you or a trusted individual has seen the coin in person. You cannot see putty without rotating the coin under certain lighting conditions. Certainly not from a photo. If you are buying coins from online photos without seeing the coin in hand, Caveat Emptor!
As a collector, gain knowledge by taking classes and learning. I also was in CO Springs in back to back grading classes recently too. I learned a ton and each time I do this I learn more. Knowledge is the key folks. The resources are out there and many collectors and dealers are available for help and opinions. I 100% support Laura in her efforts. Being a little guy I do what I can in conducting my business in a professional. responsible manner. And I am thankful for the efforts of Laura and others on this topic. There are a lot of good folks out there that care and I do my best to be among them, even though my voice isn't very loud amongst them.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
Tom
<< <i>
<< <i>Also, why does it seem so difficult for the PNG to say it is against doctoring techniques like putty? >>
Because then the PNG would be obligated to do something about it. If you live in the Himalayas and do not believe in the Yeti, you are not obligated to go hunting for it. (Perhaps a bad analogy, since I do not yet have an image of the Yeti to post
Now that there's more talk and evidence, hopefully the PNG can be convinced to start hunting. They can start with doctors and wait for the Yeti photos
I hope PCGS starts using the Coin Sniffer on all coins over $500.00
High Resolution photography will be a major game changer in the future also.
I sent some Large Cents to TomB for HR photography..... I'm still shocked at the stuff I missed just looking at the coin in hand or with a loop. When you can blow up a HR picture to fill a 20inch screen you will see things you could have never seen normally.
In God We Trust.... all others pay in Gold and Silver!
<< <i>Can someone point me to the relevant process for getting PCGS to review a coin in their holder which is suspicious for puttying? Is that a submission under Secure Plus to get the sniffer or is it handled differently? It doesn't seem like it would be a grade review as I agree with the grade. Thanks in advance. >>
Great thread, RYK. Very informative.
If you have a PCGS coin you believe is misgraded, altered, recolored, juiced, puttied, etc. send it to PCGS for a "spot review". It is completely free (setting aside shipping and insurance). Check the "other" box on the submission form, write "spot review", and in bold letters below cite your concern(s). Then wait a few months for an answer.
Lance.