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2009 UHR Grading Sob Story *** Photos up Now *** The Conclusion ***
BryceM
Posts: 11,736 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hi everyone. I've been dabbling in coins for a couple of decades but only recently got interested in collecting some quality items. I had an experience that was disapointing enough that I joined the forum just to see what you all think.
I got a mint sealed 2009 UHR coin last year for around $1800 if I recall correctly. Maybe I'm a bit slow, but I figured I'd send it in to PCGS to get it graded and put in a proper holder. I absolutely never opened the plastic mint holder and I'm certain the shipping box was genuinely mint sealed. The coin looked perfect to my very novice eye prior to submission. The coin comes back with a PCGS Genuine .92 cleaned holder.
HUH ?????????
If it is actually cleaned, then it must have happened at the mint since it sure as shootin' never got out of the little capsule after it left. Scratched, low grade, or something else I could understand, but cleaned?
Anyone else ever hear of this? Think it's worth anything over melt value? I thought the Mint was being pretty careful to ship only quality coins in this series. Guess not. The experience was distasteful enough that it put me completley off the hobby ........ for about 48 hours.
In other news, the graders confirmed my newly acquired belief that I know next to nothing about grading. Some slider Peace dollars and "genuine" eBay purchases were enough to clear that up. No big surprise there. Now, I'm spending more time at shows looking at lots of coins and getting to know a few dealers a little better. I'm also sticking to PCGS/NGC coins for anything valuable enough to deserve it.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
I got a mint sealed 2009 UHR coin last year for around $1800 if I recall correctly. Maybe I'm a bit slow, but I figured I'd send it in to PCGS to get it graded and put in a proper holder. I absolutely never opened the plastic mint holder and I'm certain the shipping box was genuinely mint sealed. The coin looked perfect to my very novice eye prior to submission. The coin comes back with a PCGS Genuine .92 cleaned holder.
HUH ?????????
If it is actually cleaned, then it must have happened at the mint since it sure as shootin' never got out of the little capsule after it left. Scratched, low grade, or something else I could understand, but cleaned?
Anyone else ever hear of this? Think it's worth anything over melt value? I thought the Mint was being pretty careful to ship only quality coins in this series. Guess not. The experience was distasteful enough that it put me completley off the hobby ........ for about 48 hours.
In other news, the graders confirmed my newly acquired belief that I know next to nothing about grading. Some slider Peace dollars and "genuine" eBay purchases were enough to clear that up. No big surprise there. Now, I'm spending more time at shows looking at lots of coins and getting to know a few dealers a little better. I'm also sticking to PCGS/NGC coins for anything valuable enough to deserve it.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
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Comments
Sounds like a painful story...and strange....have not heard of something like that happening from a mint sealed package. They do carry a premium to melt...but you will likely have to crack that thing out in order for that to happen. Until your grading skills improve I would suggest that you purchase coins that have already been holdered...and from dealers that have good reputations.
Good luck and hopefully you stick around to chat about happier coin stories than this in the future.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Ive neve heard of this either! Do you see any hairlines when looking at the coin with a magnifying glass? I would resubmit.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
As far as the coin, I have zero interest in keeping it. I don't feel right about cracking it out to sell again as a "raw" coin in the mint holder either. If it looks pretty good in hand under a glass, maybe I'll try again with NGC or ANACS. I dunno. Be watching eBay in a couple of weeks. Should be entertaining to see what a .92 will go for.
<< <i>Very strange...
Ive neve heard of this either! Do you see any hairlines when looking at the coin with a magnifying glass? I would resubmit. >>
I've seen UHRs still in the mint packaging with die polish lines all over them... would look like cleaning to someone who didn't know any better. But I've seen PCGS certify these too with plenty of die polish lines... pretty weird!!! If you look at your coin and really don't think it's been cleaned... I'd call PCGS and see if you can send it in for a grade review or something like that. Not a good experience for a newer customer and I would think PCGS would be helpful in figuring this out for you or at least confirming that you really have a cleaned coin.
Good luck and keep us posted. Post some pics if you can, maybe that would help???
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>I would resubmit. >>
I would crack it, sell it as is at a show and pick up a new one at the same show already in a holder. You might spend a few extra bucks...but maybe not?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I have a submission of coins in with die polish lines that I halfway expect to come back cleaned, even though I didn't. And if the person that sold them to me did, then the person forgot to clean the end roll toners and a few with scattered colored spots throughout.
Yup, maybe I'll just crack it out and drop it at a show and get another. I don't need a MS70. A representative MS69 would be fine. I just wanted a nice example of the nicest coin to ever be minted, IMHO.
<< <i>Wow, I'd be pretty sore to see that on my new "king of the world" Saint. >>
I would to except you can't see those lines without a glass. That image is 10X or so and they show up well.
The naked eye (at least mine) can't pick those up.
<< <i>die polish lines may be confused with cleaning.
. >>
Not with PCGS, this is a rookie move IMO.
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>
<< <i>die polish lines may be confused with cleaning.
. >>
Not with PCGS, this is a rookie move IMO. >>
Ditto.
The name is LEE!
So, if they wouldn't mistake die polish lines for cleaning, I'm left to conclude that some dude (or dudette) at the Mint wiped it off on their grimy shirt and put it in a nice, but overly ridiculous fancy box? Sounds believable to me I guess, but I really don't remember seeing anything concerning on the coin before I sent it in.
When I get it back I'll crack it out and get some good high-res photos.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
GrandAm
<< <i>Well here is a thought that comes to mind,,,, someone else originally received the coin. It had something on it they didn't like and they tried to remove it. Didn't work and they returned it to The Mint. The Mint didn't notice anything wrong with it and sent it back out and you received it. >>
Agree that this is the most likely scenario. The cleaning may be a small localized area---removing a toning spot with a toothpick for example.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Hi everyone. I've been dabbling in coins for a couple of decades but only recently got interested in collecting some quality items. I had an experience that was disapointing enough that I joined the forum just to see what you all think.
I got a mint sealed 2009 UHR coin last year for around $1800 if I recall correctly. Maybe I'm a bit slow, but I figured I'd send it in to PCGS to get it graded and put in a proper holder. I absolutely never opened the plastic mint holder and I'm certain the shipping box was genuinely mint sealed. The coin looked perfect to my very novice eye prior to submission. The coin comes back with a PCGS Genuine .92 cleaned holder.
HUH ?????????
If it is actually cleaned, then it must have happened at the mint since it sure as shootin' never got out of the little capsule after it left. Scratched, low grade, or something else I could understand, but cleaned?
Anyone else ever hear of this? Think it's worth anything over melt value? I thought the Mint was being pretty careful to ship only quality coins in this series. Guess not. The experience was distasteful enough that it put me completley off the hobby ........ for about 48 hours.
In other news, the graders confirmed my newly acquired belief that I know next to nothing about grading. Some slider Peace dollars and "genuine" eBay purchases were enough to clear that up. No big surprise there. Now, I'm spending more time at shows looking at lots of coins and getting to know a few dealers a little better. I'm also sticking to PCGS/NGC coins for anything valuable enough to deserve it.
Thanks in advance for your thoughts. >>
Bryce, welcome to the forums. I know you from APC. I would also recommend sticking to already graded coins from PCGS/NGC when new.
I called PCGS today. "We're short staffed due to the Long Beach Show...... They haven't gotten to that review yet."
What do you think the chances of them changing their mind are? I'd guess <5%. We'll see.......
<< <i>Just for reference, what is a .92 grade? I've never even heard of that! >>
Refers to part of the numeric code on the slab. It indicates a cleaned coin. Here's a list of codes for no-grade's placed into genuine holders and a little article about them.
http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=5518&universeid=313
<< <i>did you buy it directly from the mint? >>
Did you?
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Must be a fluke, either it was a return from the Mint or something happened while assembling.
Would love to see a photo of it.
- Ian
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
<< <i>PeaceBD, what is your username at APC? Small world!
>>
PM'ed you.
<< <i>Just for reference, what is a .92 grade? I've never even heard of that! >>
He is referring to a coin in a details holder; if you look closely at the serial number, you there is a code attributing the problem. A designation of 92 corresponds to cleaning.
<< <i>Nope, got it off an eBay auction in Nov or Dec 2010. It was advertised as mint sealed, and arrived to me looking like that description was 100% accurate. I suppose it's possible someone opened it, trashed the coin, carefully resealed it up, and sent it to me, but I doubt it. >>
this is pure speculation, but could it be that the coin in the mint packaging was replaced with one that was cleaned? that seems a more likely scenario.
<< <i>
<< <i>Nope, got it off an eBay auction in Nov or Dec 2010. It was advertised as mint sealed, and arrived to me looking like that description was 100% accurate. I suppose it's possible someone opened it, trashed the coin, carefully resealed it up, and sent it to me, but I doubt it. >>
this is pure speculation, but could it be that the coin in the mint packaging was replaced with one that was cleaned? that seems a more likely scenario. >>
Replaced by who? Me? The guy that sold it to me? The people at PCGS?
I know what I didn't do. I've only ever had one example of a UHR. Like I said, the mint package looked good to me. Could he or someone who sold it to him have pulled a switch-a-roo? Maybe. All sorts of dishonest things happen in the world. The people at PCGS do something sketchy? I suppose, but from what I know of PCGS, I doubt it. The difference is only a few hundred bucks. If you're going to risk your job for something, I'd do it with a $100,000 coin, not something still deriving 75% of its value from bullion content.
I just looked at the cert # for my coin and it has been changed to MS65!!!!!
For this particular issue, not so good, but infinitely better than a .92. In terms of actual market value the difference is probably slight.
Still, I am very glad I called the people there to ask them to review it. According to the pop report there are now 3 graded lower and 13,111 graded higher. I now have one of the rarest holders in existence. ROFLOL.
So, anyhow, I'll sell it down the river and get a holdered 69, or 70 if I feel particularly wealthy that day. There are alligators at every one of life's turns.
. >>
Not with PCGS, this is a rookie move IMO.
Hardly. I've sent in choice MS civil war seated quarters and halves with heavy die polish and had some come back cleaned. In each case I just sent them ATS and got the
grade I was figuring on. What's odd here is that even the original 1907 high relief saints come with irregular die polish lines such that they always look wiped/cleaned upon first glance.
One would think it should be something that all graders, in all eras, would be on the lookout for.
roadrunner
Photo's are definitely a must.
BTW: "MS/PR-65 Minor marks/hairlines though none in focal areas, above average strike"
I'm actually quite shocked that any of these "highly prized" coins which the US Mint blew their own horns over (big time) had ANY die polish marks at all.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Nope, got it off an eBay auction in Nov or Dec 2010. It was advertised as mint sealed, and arrived to me looking like that description was 100% accurate. I suppose it's possible someone opened it, trashed the coin, carefully resealed it up, and sent it to me, but I doubt it. >>
this is pure speculation, but could it be that the coin in the mint packaging was replaced with one that was cleaned? that seems a more likely scenario. >>
Replaced by who? Me? The guy that sold it to me? The people at PCGS?
I know what I didn't do. I've only ever had one example of a UHR. Like I said, the mint package looked good to me. Could he or someone who sold it to him have pulled a switch-a-roo? Maybe. All sorts of dishonest things happen in the world. The people at PCGS do something sketchy? I suppose, but from what I know of PCGS, I doubt it. The difference is only a few hundred bucks. If you're going to risk your job for something, I'd do it with a $100,000 coin, not something still deriving 75% of its value from bullion content. >>
i was suggesting that some could have switched it before it go to you. not pcgs or you. but, like i said...pure speculation based on your original comment that i quoted. i am happy it turned out not to be cleaned. that's great!
When I look at it closely, I have to admit that something bad happened to this coin at some point. I've included the best photos I can take with my current camera setup. The reverse is fine and approaches, but probably does not qualify for a prooflike designation. The obverse has some real issues. In good light, and with a glass, I can see parallel hairlines between the rays to the left of liberty's waist and below the bottom of the torch. These hairlines are oriented from 8 o'clock to 2 o'clock. Closer inspection shows ligher hairlines above and below liberty's left arm in the same orientation. I can't really tell with the optics I have if they extend across the devices but they are certainly evident in the fields.
Of course, a peace dollar (which I'm sorta familar with) looking like this would get at minimum a MS67 grade.
I really don't know what to think. I'm truly wondering if this coin was broken out of the mint box, messed with, and carefully sealed back up inside. Some sucker (me) then came along on "Unload-Your-Junk"Bay and scooped it up. The only other explanation is that they are localized die polish marks (unlikely, says me), or that a mint employee wiped a dirty rag across it at some point in the minting process. The affected area is pretty well demarcated too, so I'm guessing someone tried to fix something and then unloaded it on eBay.
The correct course of action for me is clear ..... sell it, and get one I like. The difference in actual $ shouldn't be too much to jump up to MS69. It's too bad, since the obverse has that PL look and it could have been a nice coin. Chalk one UHR off the PQ list. It's still pretty enough though, and would fill a hole nicely for a gold type collector.
Whaddya all think?
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Nice edgeview holder. Doesnt look cleaned to me. >>
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<< <i>I'm truly wondering if this coin was broken out of the mint box, messed with, and carefully sealed back up inside. Some sucker (me) then came along on "Unload-Your-Junk"Bay and scooped it up >>
You answered your own question.
Looks like one hairline running from the bottom of the branch to around 4:00. There are also luster breaks on each of her lower legs. Those could account
for a few points deduction.
roadrunner