<< <i>However, since you keep bringing up your pension (and the OP didn't), many state, county and city government employee pensions are underfunded because of two primary reasons: (1) poor fund management, i.e. investments being caught in the recent financial meltdown and (2) unrealistic pension promises by politicians to union bosses in order to get votes. >>
<< <i>Actually, there is a third. Many States (I am not sure about local as local Government has to participate in the State pension here in WA State), balance their budgets by underfunding the pension plan. If they raise the rate required by the actuarial studies, the State would have to contribute more and thus would have to find another revenue source or cut into other programs to make their contributions. >>
. . . or renig on their pension promises. As you point out there are many reasons for underfunded public pension programs, I only addressed what I considered to be the two most common themes when looking at the overall big picture.
<< <i>I agree with gecko that the real runaway issue in the all the government budgets is the social programs. They are no longer a system to help you get back on their feet. They are a way of life and are expected even though the participants have hardly, if at all, paid in a dime. >>
SS is no more a social program than gecko's pension. Both are funded by participants and it could be argued that both are ponzi schemes. True social programs are those that give other people's money to non contributor's, and we do have plenty of those. As you point out a whole new generation is learning that they are entitled to government support - many of whom know of no other way of life.
Getting back to the original topic, here's an interesting chart that shows the decay of the silver content in Roman coinage over time:
>>
How much did the population grow during this time? Im sure the economy grew and more money was needed to conduct business. Silver content probably fell because there was not enough silver to make coins. I dont think the above chart necessarily depicts a "decay" of socio-economic conditions.
Rome had built into its economic model the need to conquer its neighbors to sustain its economy. The parallel to the US is that we invade Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and don't get anything in return. Heck, we don't even pay for it. You want unfunded liabilities? Two unfunded wars for a start.
Actually 3 unfunded wars if you count the war on terror at home with the huge bureaucracy of Homeland Security.
I have paid into Social Security for over 35 years. It's not a Ponzi Scheme. Our Congress saw fit to loot that fund yearly and replace it with worthless Treasury IOUs. And they are lecturing us that we can not take out loans on our 401Ks and probably make it illegal to cash in your 401ks because they want to confiscate your private pensions and put the $7.5 Trillion in private pensions into treasuries.
The Social Security trust funds have built up a $2.5 trillion surplus over the past 25 years. But the federal government has borrowed that money over the years to spend on other programs. The government must now start borrowing money from public debt markets — adding to annual budget deficits — to repay Social Security. If that 2.5 Trillion earned interest at 4.5% it would be an extra 112 Billion a year alone added to the fund. Compound that interest for 25 years. Instead we are at a negative -4.5% paying on debt to fund social security.
<< <i>Getting back to the original topic, here's an interesting chart that shows the decay of the silver content in Roman coinage over time:
How much did the population grow during this time? Im sure the economy grew and more money was needed to conduct business. Silver content probably fell because there was not enough silver to make coins. I dont think the above chart necessarily depicts a "decay" of socio-economic conditions. >>
More likely not enough silver to create money from thin air: From wikipedia: "The large number of coins required to raise an army and pay for supplies often necessitated the debasement of the coinage. An example of this is the denarii that were struck by Mark Antony to pay his army during his battles against Octavian. These coins, slightly smaller in diameter than a normal denarius, were made of noticeably debased silver. The coinage of the Julio-Claudians remained stable at 4 grams of silver, until the debasement of Nero in 64, when the silver content was reduced to 3.8 grams, perhaps due to the cost of rebuilding the city after fire consumed a considerable portion of Rome. The exact reason that Roman coinage sustained constant debasement is not known, but the most common theories involve inflation, trade with India, which drained silver from the Mediterranean world, and inadequacies in state finances."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>This is a first Social Security Statements Suspended. >>
Trust us. We know how many years and how much you have paid in. Our special software and computer will let you know how much we will give you back when the times comes. Trust us.
<< <i>How much did the population grow during this time? Im sure the economy grew and more money was needed to conduct business. Silver content probably fell because there was not enough silver to make coins. I dont think the above chart necessarily depicts a "decay" of socio-economic conditions. >>
As you can imagine demographic data from this period is not going to be reliable, but many historians believe that the population actually fell from plagues and war during this period.
<< <i>the most common theories involve inflation, trade with India, which drained silver from the Mediterranean world, and inadequacies in state finances." >>
I think the trade with India theory has been discredited, but wars and military pressures were increasing. The military had to be paid in real money to remain loyal, someone else had to take the hit.
Presumably, the Roman Praetorian Guard would typically work a lot of "overtime" their last 3 years on the job, so they could "backload" their pension silver denarii and gold aurei amount calculations based on their average ending salary.
Gaming that system, it's a centuries-old tradition
Of course, average life expectancy in Roman times was probably 38 years or something, so old soldiers might have retired at 35 and collected entitlements for a couple of years.
these days, folks Retire at 65 or 62 (or 55 sometimes) and suckle at the Public Dept teat for 25 or 30 (or maybe 40+!) years, collecting far more than they ever contributed..
<< <i>Of course, average life expectancy in Roman times was probably 38 years or something, so old soldiers might have retired at 35 and collected entitlements for a couple of years.
these days, folks Retire at 65 or 62 (or 55 sometimes) and suckle at the Public Dept teat for 25 or 30 (or maybe 40+!) years, collecting far more than they ever contributed.. >>
Or worse yet, some get to start after only 10 years and suckle for 60, 70 or 80 years.
Do the rules in America allow double- or triple-dipping, such that one can, if they play their career cards a certain way, collect Social Security, a State Pension, AND a Federal Pension? Possibly even a private industry pension on top of that?
of course, that might mean a working lifetime of putting up with various bureaucracies and lackeys, so one would have to judge it to be worth it
One more question, do you suppose the Praetorian Guard and Roman Army had seniority rules in their Union, so that oftentimes more skilled and able soldiers were laid off in them downsizing, in favor of retaining some of the lazy inept workers with more time on the job?
<< <i>Do the rules in America allow double- or triple-dipping, such that one can, if they play their career cards a certain way, collect Social Security, a State Pension, AND a Federal Pension? Possibly even a private industry pension on top of that?
of course, that might mean a working lifetime of putting up with various bureaucracies and lackeys, so one would have to judge it to be worth it >>
I believe double dipping is common and even triple dipping is not unheard of and that doesn't even include social security. What I didn't realize was that some states or municipalities allow double dipping within their system.
You can retire and continue working for the same entity, collecting both paychecks.
Yes, we have retired military people who have (& are) worked here who are drawing their military pension. One guy, who is still currently working, is drawing his military pension, Social Security (over 70?) and his private company pension while receiving a payroll check (he brags about it all the time). When he retires, he will get 4 retirement pensions, maybe 5 if he is contributing to our 457/401a plan.
<< <i>Yes, we have retired military people who have (& are) worked here who are drawing their military pension. One guy, who is still currently working, is drawing his military pension, Social Security (over 70?) and his private company pension while receiving a payroll check (he brags about it all the time). When he retires, he will get 4 retirement pensions, maybe 5 if he is contributing to our 457/401a plan. >>
We're gonna need a lot more retirees like him to fund future T bonds.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Everyone wants to cut costs, unless they fall in the cost section of course. Yeah, that's it, let's cut someone else out of the cost! Leave our full retirement benefits at age 50-55 alone, but let's get the social security from the little old lady who worked as a secretary for 40 years. Shes the one causing all the problems with her "entitlement". I mean come on, she's not even a "pillar" of society, whatever that means.
Im sorry. You guys all have it right. Its not the fact that 43,000,000 Americans leech off the system, or that people tend to turn welfare into "careers" thats the problem. Its not the free cell phones that we hand out like candy, or the multiple wars we have just wasted TRILLIONS of dollars on.
Its really your neighborhood cop, fireman, and teacher who is busting America. You know.....the ones that teach your kids and keep your neighborhoods safe. They are the villains. How DARE they ask for a fair compensation package for risking their safety to ensure yours. We are FAR better off dropping million dollar bombs on remote mountain sides, and making sure that generations of families will never have to work while they watch Oprah and play x-box waiting for their next hunk of government cheese. Go ahead and nix my pension. Lets make sure that when I retire, that I too can just sit at home and get money from tax payers that I never earned. Thats the path to prosperity. I had it all wrong!
these days, folks Retire at 65 or 62 (or 55 sometimes) and suckle at the Public Dept teat for 25 or 30 (or maybe 40+!) years, collecting far more than they ever contributed..
The system should have been reformed when the very first social security retiree collected something like $120,000 over the rest of her life after contributing about $24 into the system. After that, it should have been obvious what kind of Ponzi Scheme was in play.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>Its really your neighborhood cop, fireman, and teacher who is busting America. You know.....the ones that teach your kids and keep your neighborhoods safe. They are the villains. How DARE they ask for a fair compensation package for risking their safety to ensure yours. >>
Salary: $172,163 Position: High School Teacher Full/Part Time: Fulltime Percent Time Employed: 100% Assignment: Physics (Grades 9-12 Only) Years Teaching: 30.5 Degree: Master's
Salary: $163,526 Position: High School Teacher Full/Part Time: Fulltime Percent Time Employed: 100% Assignment: Driver Education Years Teaching: 32 Degree: Master's
These teachers probably only actually teach nine months out of the year. For comparison's sake, this is twice the salary of an Associate Professor at one of the top public universities in the world, the University of California.
These high school teachers' salaries are more than triple the median household income in the U.S., which according to the Census Bureau is $49,777 annually. I can almost guarantee that these two teachers didn't "negotiate" these salaries....Their union muscle did (with of course the well being of the students in mind).
Do you think these teachers will receive a "fair" pension? This type of irresponsible behavior is happening across America and I, as a taxpayer, am fed up with it. ANY public employee who receives a pension based on these kinds of bloated incomes should not only have them nixed but should be held responsible for returning a fair shair back to the taxpayers.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Its really your neighborhood cop, fireman, and teacher who is busting America. You know.....the ones that teach your kids and keep your neighborhoods safe. They are the villains. How DARE they ask for a fair compensation package for risking their safety to ensure yours. >>
Salary: $172,163 Position: High School Teacher Full/Part Time: Fulltime Percent Time Employed: 100% Assignment: Physics (Grades 9-12 Only) Years Teaching: 30.5 Degree: Master's
Salary: $163,526 Position: High School Teacher Full/Part Time: Fulltime Percent Time Employed: 100% Assignment: Driver Education Years Teaching: 32 Degree: Master's
These teachers probably only actually teach nine months out of the year. For comparison's sake, this is twice the salary of an Associate Professor at one of the top public universities in the world, the University of California.
These high school teachers' salaries are more than triple the median household income in the U.S., which according to the Census Bureau is $49,777 annually.
Do you think these teachers will receive a "fair" pension? This type of irresponsible behavior is happening across America and I, as a taxpayer, am fed up with it. >>
So you point out 2 overpaid public service employees and call it an argument? For every 1 person making $170k, I can show you 500 teachers who make $60k. Do us a favor and show us statistics of MEAN averages among compensation packages for public service employees, not just the top 2 or 3 cases.
You are basically saying that all major league ballplayers make $40 million a year just because a couple of them do. Weak sauce Derry. FWIW, the starting salary for uniformed Chicago firefighters is currently $44,000. Too much for your liking?
You used "overpaid" in the same sentence with "public service employee." I believe we're making progress.
Maybe these are the type public service employees others are referring to when you assume they are talking directly about you. Now if you are overpaid (which means you will receive an overpayment in your pension) then yes, I am talking about your pension as well.
$44k is a lot for a rookie in any trade, must be Illinois. I made less than that after 10 years of certifying the safety of nuclear reactors for DoD.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Since this is ALL ABOUT GECKO'S PENSION, AGAIN.............................Gecko, what is your payout for that 9.125% contribution? How long do you pay in, and how much do you get out? Let's clear the air and decide if you are worth it.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
<< <i>It wouldn't be so bad if salaries like that were only paid WHILE they were actually working ...
(probably, some of those jobs are hard to do, day in and day out...)
... and then the recipient put away some funds from their generous salary for retirement...
But Noooo, we got to keep paying them for decades after they stop working??
BTW, do you suppose the Praetorian Guard guys, like, worked every day they were on the clock?
or, did battle only break out infrequently, and they usually spent most days playing cards and shining their helmet? >>
We DO put away some funds from our compensation packages Baley.......we in fact put away 9.125% of the gross of every dollar earned while we work. Its called our pension.
What would happen if the typical American saved 9.125% of the gross amount of every single dollar they earned from age 21 till age 55? My guess is they could have a pretty damn nice retirement!
But the fact is that the average American prefers to save less than 3% towards retirement and instead live high on the hog now. Too bad for them. Dont start blaming me for YOUR failure to save as diligently as im FORCED to save, and then cry foul.
9.125% of every gross dollar I earn Baley...........9.125%......from day 1 to the final day. 9.125%.
for every position open in Ill., how many apply?----that would be interesting to know--although if I cared to know(and if I lived there, I would care)-it would be pretty easy to find out I say, put the job out to bid to Wackenhut.
In Orange County, it's astonishing how many apply for that 'lowly' $172,000 average total compensation firefighter salary. I've heard 1000 apply for each open position.
We DO put away some funds from our compensation packages Baley.......we in fact put away 9.125% of the gross of every dollar earned while we work. Its called our pension.
What would happen if the typical American saved 9.125% of the gross amount of every single dollar they earned from age 21 till age 55? My guess is they could have a pretty damn nice retirement!
But the fact is that the average American prefers to save less than 3% towards retirement and instead live high on the hog now. Too bad for them. Dont start blaming me for YOUR failure to save as diligently as im FORCED to save, and then cry foul.
9.125% of every gross dollar I earn Baley...........9.125%......from day 1 to the final day. 9.125%.
whoa there, big fella, I'm trying to follow along as we skip from the general, to the specific ( you ) back to the general "average", then back to YOU, then back to a hypothetical average, then to ME (me?) then back to YOU...
Actually, if you would add up the free rent from the "Projects", food, medical, cellphones, TV, internet, etc that the non-working get, they probably make pretty close to the "median household income." Why do you think they won't flip burgers? Because they earn more sitting on their hands.
It is hard to say if these two examples are over paid without knowing the cost of living in the area they live. I know people working in my profession make way more on the East Coast than they do where I live. In fact, they make significantly more in Seattle than where I live. However, both places cost significantly more to live than where I live. Further, I love where I live and wouldn't trade it for twice the salary.
<< <i>Since this is ALL ABOUT GECKO'S PENSION, AGAIN.............................Gecko, what is your payout for that 9.125% contribution? How long do you pay in, and how much do you get out? Let's clear the air and decide if you are worth it. >>
I started employment in 1999, at age 23. I will work for 30 years and retire at age 53 at which time I will have earned a pension of 75% of my base salary of the average of my final 4 years. No juicing allowed......all calculated on base salary alone....no OT.
As part of my overall compensation package, the city multiplies my contribution towards the pension fund by a factor of 2.26x. In other words, when I started this job at $33,000, 12 years ago, my contribution was 9.125%, or $3,011. Then the city multiplies that by 2.26 for a total pension fund contribution of $6,804 all said all done ($3k from my pay, $3,800 from my employer).
Hey! Look at that!!!!!! Wowzer! If I retire at age 53 with 75% of my base salary, I can live to age 82 and STILL have in excess of $1,200,000 in my account! But heres the "fun" part. No matter what age I die, my pension dies with me. If I have a surviving spouse at that time, she gets a decreased benefit of 50% of my final base salary for her life....and when she dies, thats it.
So unlike traditional private retirement accounts, where you get to will the remainder of your portfolio to your heirs upon death, my kid gets nothing. And thats ok, im fine with that. Wanna know why? Because those were the rules of the game that I accepted when I chose to work for my employer. I wont try to change those rules midstream, and neither should they.
The real reason why states are failing as far as public sector pensions is because of their FAILURE to properly fund them. They decided to take funding holidays and spend the cash on BS instead during the rockin rolling times. Ooooops! Bad move!
I have just PROVEN to you that my pension plan......as agreed to.....if all parties involved did what they were supposed to do.....is very sustainable.
But now its broken......and guess what Jmski.....its not because I have failed to honor my end of the deal.
"But the fact is that the average American prefers to save less than 3% towards retirement and instead live high on the hog now. Too bad for them. Dont start blaming me for YOUR failure to save as diligently as im FORCED to save, and then cry foul. "
Actually, most americans think Social Security is their retirement when it was designed to supplement your retirement savings. I am like you gecko, I am forced to pay into SS and my pension fund. My employer is forced to pay into SS and the pension fund. And, like you said, unlike a 401, when I die, the pension goes away.
Maybe everyone who has a pension s/b excempt from SS or everyone w/o a pension plan be required to pay twice the amount into SS.
I pay over 15% SS for me and over a 7.5% match for my guys.
If I ever went to the SS site I could see how much I've paid in over the last 41 years and it's over $200,000 for me and gawd knows how much for the guys.
I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'll never see a penny. Doesn't concern me at this point because it won't be there for people who earn money---they'll just means test it goodbye.
Now when the CALPERS & CALSTRS people are underfunded they also look to business owners to make up the difference. But NO WAY would they ask the CALPERS & CALSTRS people to make SS whole. 75% of the public employees in this state ---if they move any slower ---they'll turn into a statue. AND WHINE? Oy vey, do they whine and complain.
1/3 of the budgets for the cities of San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Jose and San Diego in the next few years are going to retirement benefits for over paid cows. Costa Mesa is laying off about half of its work force because it has to meet benefits payouts.
I say...Put out for bid & outsource every job in this state to WACKENHUT and we'd be a lot better off.
Good thing Weiss dumped it, RHODIUM down to $18xx.
<< <i>I pay over 15% SS for me and over a 7.5% match for my guys.
If I ever went to the SS site I could see how much I've paid in over the last 41 years and it's over $200,000 for me and gawd knows how much for the guys.
I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'll never see a penny. Doesn't concern me at this point because it won't be there for people who earn money---they'll just means test it goodbye.
Now when the CALPERS & CALSTRS people are underfunded they also look to business owners to make up the difference. But NO WAY would they ask the CALPERS & CALSTRS people to make SS whole. 75% of the public employees in this state ---if they move any slower ---they'll turn into a statue. AND WHINE? Oy vey, do they whine and complain.
1/3 of the budgets for the cities of San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Jose and San Diego in the next few years are going to retirement benefits for over paid cows. Costa Mesa is laying off about half of its work force because it has to meet benefits payouts.
I say...Put out for bid & outsource every job in this state to WACKENHUT and we'd be a lot better off.
Good thing Weiss dumped it, RHODIUM down to $18xx. >>
I agree with both Jmski and Streeter. It will be a hard fought battle, but "austerity" will be forced upon the unions by the 87% of Americans that do not belong to unions. This is just another deflationary headwind.
<I agree with both Jmski and Streeter. It will be a hard fought battle, but "austerity" will be forced upon the unions by the 87% of Americans that do not belong to unions>
Add me to this list of miscreants. I agree with them also. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
San Diego Pension Scandal Called "Worse Than Bell" - San Diego 6Oct 5, 2010 ... The top 10 city pensioners will get nearly $62 million. ... The San Diego City Employees' Retirement System currently faces a funding ... www.sandiego6.com/.../San-Diego.../iVFlhMOZWECMOs8JWq0u_g.cspx - Cached - Similar
Number Of City Employees Getting $100k In Retirement Pay Spikes 71 ...Apr 12, 2011 ... San Diego city employees reaping more than $100000 in retirement pay increased ... The Top 25 retirement salaries ranged from $174200 for an ex-police ... Retired firefighters accounted for 10 of the 25 highest pensions. ...
www.kpbs.org › News › 2011 › April › 12th - Cached'Skyrocketing' City Pensions Add up to Outrage | NBC San DiegoOct 4, 2010 ... $61 million 'actuarial' costs projected for Top 10 retirees ... Fritz noted that San Diego city employees gain vesting in the system by ... www.nbcsandiego.com/.../Skyrocketing-City-Pensions-Add-up-to-Outrage- 104302889.html - Cached - Similar
I perdict a very painful backlash for the remaining cows over the next 10-15 years.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I do not see the fault in some one expecting their retirement. If the SOB's promised it to you & you worked 30 years of your life you should get 100% what you was promised.
This cop out horse dung of we are broke we can't pay you is totally unacceptable
Too bad today's public sector doesn't feel about education and public servants the way Milton Hershey did. When Hershey died, he left his entire fortune to the well being of the school who serves underpriviledged kids, and the community that supports it.
The selfish attitude of today's public sector and politicians has ruined it for those of us who have spent our lives looking after the well being of society. The large majority of teachers, firemen, and police officers really do care about the structure of our society, and we never went into it thinking we were going to get rich off of it.
No one is going to be willing to make the necessary sacrifices. Therefore, nothing will happen. That is until the current system collaspes under its own weight. Then what? Everybody loses. What we have now is totally unsustainable. Everyone knows it. The arguements are the same as they have always been. Not me, not in my backyard, not fair.............................. Too damn bad. The system needs a mulligan, a do over.............Facing the music and taking our medicine is not one our of strong traits as a young nation.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Since you put it that way - all those taxes I've paid for all those years and years - have been paid out of selflessness.
In my town, most of the firefighters are volunteers who don't retire set for life at 53.
And I can't go back on all of my customers for the past 30 years for a surcharge to fund my retirement, either. >>
You did not pay taxes out of selflessness. You paid taxes because it's the law. If you have ever donated to a charity, then that was done out of selflessness.
Whatever money Gecko put into his retirement account -- plus the money his employer actually put in -- is his money. Plus any growth in those investments.
What he has no right to is a guarantee of fixed payments for life based on his final salary -- regardless of how his investments actually performed. Sorry. His pension should pay out exactly what's in the trust fund, nothing less, nothing more.
If the investments didn't perform, that's too bad. As a taxpayer, I'm not going to make up for anyone's shortfall. Just as I don't expect anyone to make up for mine if my investments don't perform.
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
All i'd like to know is where were all these "peasants with pitchforks" when I began employment back in '99? When most of my friends chuckled at the idea that i'd want to go into burning buildings for $33,000/yr while they all started their IT jobs making $50,000. As long as J6P was able to refi his home every other year to buy a new Escalade and take his family to Hawaii once a year, everything was cool.
But now, my buddies......yeah, the ones who chuckled at my decision back then.....are all on unemployment or working lesser paying jobs now. J6P cant borrow another dime from his house that SHOULD have been paid off long ago if not for his extravagent lifestyle. But here I am.....chugging along.....doing the exact same job I agreed to do. Earning the exact same money and raises that the city agreed to pay me. And now its not fair.
You see, back in '99 there wasnt as much as a mousefart about my compensation or pension plan. Thats because all of you were too busy making FAR more than me. But because the economy has soured, im now the "greedy fireman" who wants to bankrupt America.
The truth is, I could have made DOUBLE what I started at as a fireman. I left nursing school wuith just 3 semesters remaining before I was to earn a B.S.N. The truth is I would be making 6 figures today as a nurse anesthetist. Much more than what I currently make. But I had a greater calling......one that led me to enter the fire service.
After 10 years of "going in"....(im now an engineer)......I can tell you with certainty that there was NEVER a time when fire was blowing out of 2-3 windows and I paused to "re-negotiate" my bennies with the city. I did my job......I held up my end of the bargain that was agreed to. I have NEVER missed a pension contribution as that 9.125% comes right out of every check. I have never asked for anything other than what was agreed to.
In other words, I continue to hold up my end of the agreement. But a lot of you now want the rules changed midstream? And why? The pension system has been in place for 6 decades or longer......and even as recently as 2006, nobody complained that it was broken. It was only AFTER you guys took hits on housing and employment that yolu now want me to suffer. Sour grapes pal.
In 1999, I decided to risk my life and safety for $33,000 a year. You decided to enter whatever field you chose. We both made our decisions....both of us made our beds. You lay in yours, and i'll lay in mine. But stop the childish crying for god sakes. If you want a benefit like a pension, then you shoulda signed up to crawl down a smokey hallway at 3am, not sit behind a desk all day.
Phil you do know you are whinning right? You are so caught up it what's fair. Life is not fair. You act as if you would be the only one effected by this. You know what's going down. You made the decision to be a fireman. No one twisted your arm. It's not 1999 anymore.
No, you are not bankrupting the system. The system is already bankrupt.
Default is the new mulligan. I would prepare for it.................When a deal is unsustainable it gets broken. It doesn't go on forever. I'm sorry but that's the way it works. You see it every day and it's a terrible shame.
Odds are you are going to get screwed. Most of us will be. We can have a pity party.
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Default is the new mulligan. I would prepare for it.................When a deal is unsustainable it gets broken. It doesn't go on forever. I'm sorry but that's the way it works. You see it every day and it's a terrible shame. >>
Inflation is the answer in reducing those future obligations as long as the presses are working.
In 1999, I decided to risk my life and safety for $33,000 a year. You decided to enter whatever field you chose. We both made our decisions....both of us made our beds. You lay in yours, and I'll lay in mine....
People make business decisions that eventually lead to bankruptcy, and shareholders or bondholders can get stiffed, even after 30 yrs. Your union and associated town/county/state made a deal that was only as good as their ability to invest that money and grow it. If it's not there at retirement the only recourse should be with the 2 entitities that made the original deal. And if those 2 can't come up with the cash, the deal ends in default or in a renegotiation.....just like in business. Unlike the federal govt states and municipalities can't print their way out of financial straits. That's another factor included in the original deal. I risked my life for 10 yrs on submarines and then 20 years around fire-breathing incinerators. My lifetime "pension" from those (by age 82) will amount to <$80K...or less than $3K per yr. My choice, my deal. I don't complain about it or expect anyone else to fund my retirement. I'm also not expecting a penny from social security when or IF I ever become eligible as the age will only continue to be pushed down the line. By the time I'm 65 the official retirement age will probably be 70. And when I'm 70, the retirement age will probably 75. More than likely the system will be totally revamped in the next 5-20 yrs so it won't matter any ways. I knew 20 yrs ago that the system was unsustainable.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>However, since you keep bringing up your pension (and the OP didn't), many state, county and city government employee pensions are underfunded because of two primary reasons: (1) poor fund management, i.e. investments being caught in the recent financial meltdown and (2) unrealistic pension promises by politicians to union bosses in order to get votes. >>
<< <i>Actually, there is a third. Many States (I am not sure about local as local Government has to participate in the State pension here in WA State), balance their budgets by underfunding the pension plan. If they raise the rate required by the actuarial studies, the State would have to contribute more and thus would have to find another revenue source or cut into other programs to make their contributions. >>
. . . or renig on their pension promises. As you point out there are many reasons for underfunded public pension programs, I only addressed what I considered to be the two most common themes when looking at the overall big picture.
<< <i>I agree with gecko that the real runaway issue in the all the government budgets is the social programs. They are no longer a system to help you get back on their feet. They are a way of life and are expected even though the participants have hardly, if at all, paid in a dime. >>
SS is no more a social program than gecko's pension. Both are funded by participants and it could be argued that both are ponzi schemes. True social programs are those that give other people's money to non contributor's, and we do have plenty of those. As you point out a whole new generation is learning that they are entitled to government support - many of whom know of no other way of life.
Getting back to the original topic, here's an interesting chart that shows the decay of the silver content in Roman coinage over time:
How much did the population grow during this time? Im sure the economy grew and more money was needed to conduct business. Silver content probably fell because there was not enough silver to make coins. I dont think the above chart necessarily depicts a "decay" of socio-economic conditions.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Actually 3 unfunded wars if you count the war on terror at home with the huge bureaucracy of Homeland Security.
$1.2 Trillion
I have paid into Social Security for over 35 years. It's not a Ponzi Scheme. Our Congress saw fit to loot that fund yearly and replace it with worthless Treasury IOUs. And they are lecturing us that we can not take out loans on our 401Ks and probably make it illegal to cash in your 401ks because they want to confiscate your private pensions and put the $7.5 Trillion in private pensions into treasuries.
The Social Security trust funds have built up a $2.5 trillion surplus over the past 25 years. But the federal government has borrowed that money over the years to spend on other programs. The government must now start borrowing money from public debt markets — adding to annual budget deficits — to repay Social Security. If that 2.5 Trillion earned interest at 4.5% it would be an extra 112 Billion a year alone added to the fund. Compound that interest for 25 years. Instead we are at a negative -4.5% paying on debt to fund social security.
This is a first Social Security Statements Suspended.
Box of 20
<< <i>Getting back to the original topic, here's an interesting chart that shows the decay of the silver content in Roman coinage over time:
How much did the population grow during this time? Im sure the economy grew and more money was needed to conduct business. Silver content probably fell because there was not enough silver to make coins. I dont think the above chart necessarily depicts a "decay" of socio-economic conditions. >>
More likely not enough silver to create money from thin air:
From wikipedia:
"The large number of coins required to raise an army and pay for supplies often necessitated the debasement of the coinage. An example of this is the denarii that were struck by Mark Antony to pay his army during his battles against Octavian. These coins, slightly smaller in diameter than a normal denarius, were made of noticeably debased silver. The coinage of the Julio-Claudians remained stable at 4 grams of silver, until the debasement of Nero in 64, when the silver content was reduced to 3.8 grams, perhaps due to the cost of rebuilding the city after fire consumed a considerable portion of Rome. The exact reason that Roman coinage sustained constant debasement is not known, but the most common theories involve inflation, trade with India, which drained silver from the Mediterranean world, and inadequacies in state finances."
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>This is a first Social Security Statements Suspended. >>
Trust us. We know how many years and how much you have paid in. Our special software and computer will let you know how much we will give you back when the times comes. Trust us.
<< <i>How much did the population grow during this time? Im sure the economy grew and more money was needed to conduct business. Silver content probably fell because there was not enough silver to make coins. I dont think the above chart necessarily depicts a "decay" of socio-economic conditions. >>
As you can imagine demographic data from this period is not going to be reliable, but many historians believe that the population actually fell from plagues and war during this period.
<< <i>the most common theories involve inflation, trade with India, which drained silver from the Mediterranean world, and inadequacies in state finances." >>
I think the trade with India theory has been discredited, but wars and military pressures were increasing. The military had to be paid in real money to remain loyal, someone else had to take the hit.
so they could "backload" their pension silver denarii and gold aurei amount calculations based on their average ending salary.
Gaming that system, it's a centuries-old tradition
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
these days, folks Retire at 65 or 62 (or 55 sometimes) and suckle at the Public Dept teat for 25 or 30 (or maybe 40+!) years, collecting far more than they ever contributed..
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Of course, average life expectancy in Roman times was probably 38 years or something, so old soldiers might have retired at 35 and collected entitlements for a couple of years.
these days, folks Retire at 65 or 62 (or 55 sometimes) and suckle at the Public Dept teat for 25 or 30 (or maybe 40+!) years, collecting far more than they ever contributed.. >>
Or worse yet, some get to start after only 10 years and suckle for 60, 70 or 80 years.
collect Social Security, a State Pension, AND a Federal Pension? Possibly even a private industry pension on top of that?
of course, that might mean a working lifetime of putting up with various bureaucracies and lackeys, so one would have to judge it to be worth it
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
in favor of retaining some of the lazy inept workers with more time on the job?
Is THAT how Rome fell?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Do the rules in America allow double- or triple-dipping, such that one can, if they play their career cards a certain way,
collect Social Security, a State Pension, AND a Federal Pension? Possibly even a private industry pension on top of that?
of course, that might mean a working lifetime of putting up with various bureaucracies and lackeys, so one would have to judge it to be worth it
I believe double dipping is common and even triple dipping is not unheard of and that doesn't even include social security. What I didn't realize was that some states or municipalities allow double dipping within their system.
You can retire and continue working for the same entity, collecting both paychecks.
<< <i>Yes, we have retired military people who have (& are) worked here who are drawing their military pension. One guy, who is still currently working, is drawing his military pension, Social Security (over 70?) and his private company pension while receiving a payroll check (he brags about it all the time). When he retires, he will get 4 retirement pensions, maybe 5 if he is contributing to our 457/401a plan. >>
We're gonna need a lot more retirees like him to fund future T bonds.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
Its really your neighborhood cop, fireman, and teacher who is busting America. You know.....the ones that teach your kids and keep your neighborhoods safe. They are the villains. How DARE they ask for a fair compensation package for risking their safety to ensure yours. We are FAR better off dropping million dollar bombs on remote mountain sides, and making sure that generations of families will never have to work while they watch Oprah and play x-box waiting for their next hunk of government cheese. Go ahead and nix my pension. Lets make sure that when I retire, that I too can just sit at home and get money from tax payers that I never earned. Thats the path to prosperity. I had it all wrong!
The system should have been reformed when the very first social security retiree collected something like $120,000 over the rest of her life after contributing about $24 into the system. After that, it should have been obvious what kind of Ponzi Scheme was in play.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Its really your neighborhood cop, fireman, and teacher who is busting America. You know.....the ones that teach your kids and keep your neighborhoods safe. They are the villains. How DARE they ask for a fair compensation package for risking their safety to ensure yours. >>
Just two salaries from the Illinois teacher database:
Salary: $172,163
Position: High School Teacher
Full/Part Time: Fulltime
Percent Time Employed: 100%
Assignment: Physics (Grades 9-12 Only)
Years Teaching: 30.5
Degree: Master's
Salary: $163,526
Position: High School Teacher
Full/Part Time: Fulltime
Percent Time Employed: 100%
Assignment: Driver Education
Years Teaching: 32
Degree: Master's
These teachers probably only actually teach nine months out of the year. For comparison's sake, this is twice the salary of an Associate Professor at one of the top public universities in the world, the University of California.
These high school teachers' salaries are more than triple the median household income in the U.S., which according to the Census Bureau is $49,777 annually. I can almost guarantee that these two teachers didn't "negotiate" these salaries....Their union muscle did (with of course the well being of the students in mind).
Do you think these teachers will receive a "fair" pension? This type of irresponsible behavior is happening across America and I, as a taxpayer, am fed up with it. ANY public employee who receives a pension based on these kinds of bloated incomes should not only have them nixed but should be held responsible for returning a fair shair back to the taxpayers.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
(probably, some of those jobs are hard to do, day in and day out...)
... and then the recipient put away some funds from their generous salary for retirement...
But Noooo, we got to keep paying them for decades after they stop working??
BTW, do you suppose the Praetorian Guard guys, like, worked every day they were on the clock?
or, did battle only break out infrequently, and they usually spent most days playing cards and shining their helmet?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>Its really your neighborhood cop, fireman, and teacher who is busting America. You know.....the ones that teach your kids and keep your neighborhoods safe. They are the villains. How DARE they ask for a fair compensation package for risking their safety to ensure yours. >>
Just two salaries from the Illinois teacher database:
Salary: $172,163
Position: High School Teacher
Full/Part Time: Fulltime
Percent Time Employed: 100%
Assignment: Physics (Grades 9-12 Only)
Years Teaching: 30.5
Degree: Master's
Salary: $163,526
Position: High School Teacher
Full/Part Time: Fulltime
Percent Time Employed: 100%
Assignment: Driver Education
Years Teaching: 32
Degree: Master's
These teachers probably only actually teach nine months out of the year. For comparison's sake, this is twice the salary of an Associate Professor at one of the top public universities in the world, the University of California.
These high school teachers' salaries are more than triple the median household income in the U.S., which according to the Census Bureau is $49,777 annually.
Do you think these teachers will receive a "fair" pension? This type of irresponsible behavior is happening across America and I, as a taxpayer, am fed up with it. >>
So you point out 2 overpaid public service employees and call it an argument? For every 1 person making $170k, I can show you 500 teachers who make $60k. Do us a favor and show us statistics of MEAN averages among compensation packages for public service employees, not just the top 2 or 3 cases.
You are basically saying that all major league ballplayers make $40 million a year just because a couple of them do. Weak sauce Derry. FWIW, the starting salary for uniformed Chicago firefighters is currently $44,000. Too much for your liking?
Maybe these are the type public service employees others are referring to when you assume they are talking directly about you. Now if you are overpaid (which means you will receive an overpayment in your pension) then yes, I am talking about your pension as well.
$44k is a lot for a rookie in any trade, must be Illinois. I made less than that after 10 years of certifying the safety of nuclear reactors for DoD.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>It wouldn't be so bad if salaries like that were only paid WHILE they were actually working ...
(probably, some of those jobs are hard to do, day in and day out...)
... and then the recipient put away some funds from their generous salary for retirement...
But Noooo, we got to keep paying them for decades after they stop working??
BTW, do you suppose the Praetorian Guard guys, like, worked every day they were on the clock?
or, did battle only break out infrequently, and they usually spent most days playing cards and shining their helmet? >>
We DO put away some funds from our compensation packages Baley.......we in fact put away 9.125% of the gross of every dollar earned while we work. Its called our pension.
What would happen if the typical American saved 9.125% of the gross amount of every single dollar they earned from age 21 till age 55? My guess is they could have a pretty damn nice retirement!
But the fact is that the average American prefers to save less than 3% towards retirement and instead live high on the hog now. Too bad for them. Dont start blaming me for YOUR failure to save as diligently as im FORCED to save, and then cry foul.
9.125% of every gross dollar I earn Baley...........9.125%......from day 1 to the final day. 9.125%.
for every position open in Ill., how many apply?----that would be interesting to know--although if I cared to know(and if I lived there, I would care)-it would be pretty easy to find out
I say, put the job out to bid to Wackenhut.
In Orange County, it's astonishing how many apply for that 'lowly' $172,000 average total compensation firefighter salary. I've heard 1000 apply for each open position.
tata
What would happen if the typical American saved 9.125% of the gross amount of every single dollar they earned from age 21 till age 55? My guess is they could have a pretty damn nice retirement!
But the fact is that the average American prefers to save less than 3% towards retirement and instead live high on the hog now. Too bad for them. Dont start blaming me for YOUR failure to save as diligently as im FORCED to save, and then cry foul.
9.125% of every gross dollar I earn Baley...........9.125%......from day 1 to the final day. 9.125%.
whoa there, big fella, I'm trying to follow along as we skip from the general, to the specific ( you ) back to the general "average", then back to YOU, then back to a hypothetical average, then to ME (me?) then back to YOU...
so, it's 9.125% for YOU do you say?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
It is hard to say if these two examples are over paid without knowing the cost of living in the area they live. I know people working in my profession make way more on the East Coast than they do where I live. In fact, they make significantly more in Seattle than where I live. However, both places cost significantly more to live than where I live. Further, I love where I live and wouldn't trade it for twice the salary.
<< <i>Since this is ALL ABOUT GECKO'S PENSION, AGAIN.............................Gecko, what is your payout for that 9.125% contribution? How long do you pay in, and how much do you get out? Let's clear the air and decide if you are worth it. >>
I started employment in 1999, at age 23. I will work for 30 years and retire at age 53 at which time I will have earned a pension of 75% of my base salary of the average of my final 4 years. No juicing allowed......all calculated on base salary alone....no OT.
As part of my overall compensation package, the city multiplies my contribution towards the pension fund by a factor of 2.26x. In other words, when I started this job at $33,000, 12 years ago, my contribution was 9.125%, or $3,011. Then the city multiplies that by 2.26 for a total pension fund contribution of $6,804 all said all done ($3k from my pay, $3,800 from my employer).
So lets run the numbers!
Retirement calculator
Hey! Look at that!!!!!! Wowzer! If I retire at age 53 with 75% of my base salary, I can live to age 82 and STILL have in excess of $1,200,000 in my account! But heres the "fun" part. No matter what age I die, my pension dies with me. If I have a surviving spouse at that time, she gets a decreased benefit of 50% of my final base salary for her life....and when she dies, thats it.
So unlike traditional private retirement accounts, where you get to will the remainder of your portfolio to your heirs upon death, my kid gets nothing. And thats ok, im fine with that. Wanna know why? Because those were the rules of the game that I accepted when I chose to work for my employer. I wont try to change those rules midstream, and neither should they.
The real reason why states are failing as far as public sector pensions is because of their FAILURE to properly fund them. They decided to take funding holidays and spend the cash on BS instead during the rockin rolling times. Ooooops! Bad move!
I have just PROVEN to you that my pension plan......as agreed to.....if all parties involved did what they were supposed to do.....is very sustainable.
But now its broken......and guess what Jmski.....its not because I have failed to honor my end of the deal.
<< <i>BTW, do you suppose the Praetorian Guard guys, like, worked every day they were on the clock?
or, did battle only break out infrequently, and they usually spent most days playing cards and shining their helmet? >>
Pretty funny, actually the Roman Legions had a civil engineering capability too. When not busy fighting they could build roads, aqueducts, ect.
Much more cost efficient than our modern military.
Actually, most americans think Social Security is their retirement when it was designed to supplement your retirement savings. I am like you gecko, I am forced to pay into SS and my pension fund. My employer is forced to pay into SS and the pension fund. And, like you said, unlike a 401, when I die, the pension goes away.
Maybe everyone who has a pension s/b excempt from SS or everyone w/o a pension plan be required to pay twice the amount into SS.
I've worked about 30 years longer than you and I'm still working and paying taxes.
I contribute 100% to my own retirement, not just a measly 9.125%.
I get no matching funds (taxpayer-funded) in the amount of 1.26X of what I contributed.
I get no guaranteed percentage (taxpayer-funded) of my average salary for my last 4 years in perpetuity after I retire.
I'd say that you were "promised" a Supremely Sweet Deal - MOSTLY at taxpayer expense.
And now, you want people like me - private sector taxpayers - to ante' up for your sweet deal when you retire at 53.
Because your crooked politicians in Illinois bought your union vote with bogus promises, I should be taxed more for your benefit?
There's NO difference between YOUR tax money going to 44,000,000 welfare recipients and MY tax money going to your retirement plan.
They are both government redistribution of income. Have fun with that, while I go dig a hole in the ground for safekeeping.
Exactly like the Romans did in the article by Armstrong that was the subject of the OP.
I knew it would happen.
If I ever went to the SS site I could see how much I've paid in over the last 41 years and it's over $200,000 for me and gawd knows how much for the guys.
I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'll never see a penny. Doesn't concern me at this point because it won't be there for people who earn money---they'll just means test it goodbye.
Now when the CALPERS & CALSTRS people are underfunded they also look to business owners to make up the difference. But NO WAY would they ask the CALPERS & CALSTRS people to make SS whole. 75% of the public employees in this state ---if they move any slower ---they'll turn into a statue. AND WHINE? Oy vey, do they whine and complain.
1/3 of the budgets for the cities of San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Jose and San Diego in the next few years are going to retirement benefits for over paid cows.
Costa Mesa is laying off about half of its work force because it has to meet benefits payouts.
I say...Put out for bid & outsource every job in this state to WACKENHUT and we'd be a lot better off.
Good thing Weiss dumped it, RHODIUM down to $18xx.
<< <i>I pay over 15% SS for me and over a 7.5% match for my guys.
If I ever went to the SS site I could see how much I've paid in over the last 41 years and it's over $200,000 for me and gawd knows how much for the guys.
I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that I'll never see a penny. Doesn't concern me at this point because it won't be there for people who earn money---they'll just means test it goodbye.
Now when the CALPERS & CALSTRS people are underfunded they also look to business owners to make up the difference. But NO WAY would they ask the CALPERS & CALSTRS people to make SS whole. 75% of the public employees in this state ---if they move any slower ---they'll turn into a statue. AND WHINE? Oy vey, do they whine and complain.
1/3 of the budgets for the cities of San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Jose and San Diego in the next few years are going to retirement benefits for over paid cows.
Costa Mesa is laying off about half of its work force because it has to meet benefits payouts.
I say...Put out for bid & outsource every job in this state to WACKENHUT and we'd be a lot better off.
Good thing Weiss dumped it, RHODIUM down to $18xx.
I agree with both Jmski and Streeter. It will be a hard fought battle, but "austerity" will be forced upon the unions by the 87% of Americans that do not belong to unions. This is just another deflationary headwind.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Add me to this list of miscreants. I agree with them also. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Hard to argue with the facts...
San Diego Pension Scandal Called "Worse Than Bell" - San Diego 6Oct 5, 2010 ... The top 10 city pensioners will get nearly $62 million. ... The San Diego City Employees' Retirement System currently faces a funding ...
www.sandiego6.com/.../San-Diego.../iVFlhMOZWECMOs8JWq0u_g.cspx - Cached - Similar
Number Of City Employees Getting $100k In Retirement Pay Spikes 71 ...Apr 12, 2011 ... San Diego city employees reaping more than $100000 in retirement pay increased ... The Top 25 retirement salaries ranged from $174200 for an ex-police ... Retired firefighters accounted for 10 of the 25 highest pensions. ...
www.kpbs.org › News › 2011 › April › 12th - Cached'Skyrocketing' City Pensions Add up to Outrage | NBC San DiegoOct 4, 2010 ... $61 million 'actuarial' costs projected for Top 10 retirees ... Fritz noted that San Diego city employees gain vesting in the system by ...
www.nbcsandiego.com/.../Skyrocketing-City-Pensions-Add-up-to-Outrage- 104302889.html - Cached - Similar
I perdict a very painful backlash for the remaining cows over the next 10-15 years.
goodnight Mrs suckatash wherever you are.
<< <i>Gecko -
I've worked about 30 years longer than you and I'm still working and paying taxes.
I contribute 100% to my own retirement, not just a measly 9.125%.
I get no matching funds (taxpayer-funded) in the amount of 1.26X of what I contributed.
I get no guaranteed percentage (taxpayer-funded) of my average salary for my last 4 years in perpetuity after I retire.
I'd say that you were "promised" a Supremely Sweet Deal - MOSTLY at taxpayer expense.
And now, you want people like me - private sector taxpayers - to ante' up for your sweet deal when you retire at 53.
Because your crooked politicians in Illinois bought your union vote with bogus promises, I should be taxed more for your benefit?
There's NO difference between YOUR tax money going to 44,000,000 welfare recipients and MY tax money going to your retirement plan.
They are both government redistribution of income. Have fun with that, while I go dig a hole in the ground for safekeeping.
Exactly like the Romans did in the article by Armstrong that was the subject of the OP. >>
Quite right
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
<< <i>I started employment in 1999, at age 23. >>
How much did a rookie fireman start at in 1999?
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Nice name of a company, not Princeton University, despite the similar name.
This cop out horse dung of we are broke we can't pay you is totally unacceptable
When Hershey died, he left his entire fortune to the well being of the school who serves underpriviledged kids, and the community
that supports it.
The selfish attitude of today's public sector and politicians has ruined it for those of us who have spent our lives looking after the
well being of society. The large majority of teachers, firemen, and police officers really do care about the structure of our society, and
we never went into it thinking we were going to get rich off of it.
In my town, most of the firefighters are volunteers who don't retire set for life at 53.
And I can't go back on all of my customers for the past 30 years for a surcharge to fund my retirement, either.
I knew it would happen.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Nice name of a company, not Princeton University, despite the similar name.
I don't know that anyone thought otherwise. You might want to read his bio. He's apparently pretty good at what he does.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Since you put it that way - all those taxes I've paid for all those years and years - have been paid out of selflessness.
In my town, most of the firefighters are volunteers who don't retire set for life at 53.
And I can't go back on all of my customers for the past 30 years for a surcharge to fund my retirement, either. >>
You did not pay taxes out of selflessness. You paid taxes because it's the law. If you have ever donated to a charity, then
that was done out of selflessness.
What he has no right to is a guarantee of fixed payments for life based on his final salary -- regardless of how his investments actually performed. Sorry. His pension should pay out exactly what's in the trust fund, nothing less, nothing more.
If the investments didn't perform, that's too bad. As a taxpayer, I'm not going to make up for anyone's shortfall. Just as I don't expect anyone to make up for mine if my investments don't perform.
But now, my buddies......yeah, the ones who chuckled at my decision back then.....are all on unemployment or working lesser paying jobs now. J6P cant borrow another dime from his house that SHOULD have been paid off long ago if not for his extravagent lifestyle. But here I am.....chugging along.....doing the exact same job I agreed to do. Earning the exact same money and raises that the city agreed to pay me. And now its not fair.
You see, back in '99 there wasnt as much as a mousefart about my compensation or pension plan. Thats because all of you were too busy making FAR more than me. But because the economy has soured, im now the "greedy fireman" who wants to bankrupt America.
The truth is, I could have made DOUBLE what I started at as a fireman. I left nursing school wuith just 3 semesters remaining before I was to earn a B.S.N. The truth is I would be making 6 figures today as a nurse anesthetist. Much more than what I currently make. But I had a greater calling......one that led me to enter the fire service.
After 10 years of "going in"....(im now an engineer)......I can tell you with certainty that there was NEVER a time when fire was blowing out of 2-3 windows and I paused to "re-negotiate" my bennies with the city. I did my job......I held up my end of the bargain that was agreed to. I have NEVER missed a pension contribution as that 9.125% comes right out of every check. I have never asked for anything other than what was agreed to.
In other words, I continue to hold up my end of the agreement. But a lot of you now want the rules changed midstream? And why? The pension system has been in place for 6 decades or longer......and even as recently as 2006, nobody complained that it was broken. It was only AFTER you guys took hits on housing and employment that yolu now want me to suffer. Sour grapes pal.
In 1999, I decided to risk my life and safety for $33,000 a year. You decided to enter whatever field you chose. We both made our decisions....both of us made our beds. You lay in yours, and i'll lay in mine. But stop the childish crying for god sakes. If you want a benefit like a pension, then you shoulda signed up to crawl down a smokey hallway at 3am, not sit behind a desk all day.
No, you are not bankrupting the system. The system is already bankrupt.
Default is the new mulligan. I would prepare for it.................When a deal is unsustainable it gets broken. It doesn't go on forever. I'm sorry but that's the way it works. You see it every day and it's a terrible shame.
Odds are you are going to get screwed. Most of us will be. We can have a pity party.
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Default is the new mulligan. I would prepare for it.................When a deal is unsustainable it gets broken. It doesn't go on forever. I'm sorry but that's the way it works. You see it every day and it's a terrible shame. >>
Inflation is the answer in reducing those future obligations as long as the presses are working.
People make business decisions that eventually lead to bankruptcy, and shareholders or bondholders can get stiffed, even after 30 yrs. Your union and associated town/county/state made a deal that was only as good as their ability to invest that money and grow it. If it's not there at retirement the only recourse should be with the 2 entitities that made the original deal. And if those 2 can't come up with the cash, the deal ends in default or in a renegotiation.....just like in business. Unlike the federal govt states and municipalities can't print their way out of financial straits. That's another factor included in the original deal. I risked my life for 10 yrs on submarines and then 20 years around fire-breathing incinerators. My lifetime "pension" from those (by age 82) will amount to <$80K...or less than $3K per yr. My choice, my deal. I don't complain about it or expect anyone else to fund my retirement. I'm also not expecting a penny from social security when or IF I ever become eligible as the age will only continue to be pushed down the line. By the time I'm 65 the official retirement age will probably be 70. And when I'm 70, the retirement age will probably 75. More than likely the system will be totally revamped in the next 5-20 yrs so it won't matter any ways.
I knew 20 yrs ago that the system was unsustainable.
roadrunner