<< <i>Very ironic! I moved to Las Vegas about 7 months ago ... and met him about a month ago. We are now golfing buddies. >>
I still find the circumstances of this whole deal incredible.
You, arguably the most prolific collector of our time, personally stumbles onto the deal of the decade by recently developing a relationship with someone 1 month ago!
Thats so incredible.
No pun intended on where you live but what are the odds of that happening?
It has to be an act of God, .........seriously.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Somehow I don't think that TDN was just leaning over the backyard fence, shooting the breeze with his new neighbor and said, "well, as a matter of fact - I collect pennies too."
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
TDN acquired other coins in this deal, not just a ‘SP-65’ Chain AMERI. Cent. All the ones he kept are PCGS certified. Also, remarks by John Albanese, regarding the importance of TDN’s Chain AMERI. Cent and other coins in the deal, are included in my latest column:
<< <i>It's a SP65 ... the cert verification needs to be fixed. It has lovely semi prooflike mirrors combined with swirling luster. The picture shows the details, but not the life of the coin. The flaw through OF is on the planchet.
This deal was mine, so noone but me ever got a shot at the coin. I've already turned down several offers at a significant profit. But these are the kinds of coins that I want to collect - not for sale!!! >>
Geeee, I wonder who came knocking when they heard form a "little birdie" that the coin had surfaced?
<< <i>Spectacular coin that looks exactly like the way it should! I haven't felt this bad since Tom Cruise married the young Nicole Kidman! I mean, sure she was WAAAAAY out of my league, but I still resented him thoroughly for taking her off the market. Well congrats anyway!!! You Suck!
Too bad about that thin staple scratch emanating from the spittle spot right on her cheek between her earlobe and eye extending out to the rim at 4:00. Goes to show you that two seconds of carelessness can last forever. I guess PCGS didn't see the scratch when they graded it. Spittle spots and staple scratches don't usually bother newbies but they draw my eye like a magnet even more than things like the distraction through "of" on the reverse. I guess it's because you can't tell whether or not the distraction on the reverse was caused by carelessness (I can't tell what it is) unlike the obverse scratch and spot. Things that come with a pseudo butt puckering moment of "whoops' like a staple scratch, spot or a fingerprint seem to bother picky numismatists probably more than they should. Reminds me of the unfortunate but obvious rim filing on that 1913 Liberty Nickel that finally sold a while back to someone who just plain didn't know. I just can't over look that kind of stuff but I would really like to. I guess part of it is that I'm always leery about anything that I think an experienced numismatist might be leery about. But, that's what differentiates a spectacular collection from just a nice collection.
<< <i>Too bad about that thin staple scratch emanating from the spittle spot right on her cheek between her earlobe and eye extending out to the rim at 4:00. Goes to show you that two seconds of carelessness can last forever. I guess PCGS didn't see the scratch when they graded it. Spittle spots and staple scratches don't usually bother newbies but they draw my eye like a magnet even more than things like the distraction through "of" on the reverse. I guess it's because you can't tell whether or not the distraction on the reverse was caused by carelessness (I can't tell what it is) unlike the obverse scratch and spot. Things that come with a pseudo butt puckering moment of "whoops' like a staple scratch, spot or a fingerprint seem to bother picky numismatists probably more than they should. Reminds me of the unfortunate but obvious rim filing on that 1913 Liberty Nickel that finally sold a while back to someone who just plain didn't know. I just can't over look that kind of stuff but I would really like to. I guess part of it is that I'm always leery about anything that I think an experienced numismatist might be leery about. But, that's what differentiates a spectacular collection from just a nice collection. >>
I happen to think the coin is amazing, and I just chalk up the microscopic hairlines to the downside of high-resolution photographic enlargements, making mountains out of molehills. I'm sure those things are nearly invisble in hand, but they probably are the reason why the coin did not grade higher.
That being said, I have to ask, if you have a problem such that you are unable to over look such minutia but you would really like to, why would you patronize yourself and call attention to your problem by submitting your post?
Hey supergem....good eye....nice icon. That's a coin, by the way, Brandon and I sold about 5 years ago. Don't remember any scratches or spit marks on it.
As to your question: "if you have a problem such that you are unable to over look such minutia but you would really like to,
a) why would you patronize yourself and b) call attention to your problem by submitting your post?
Answers:
a) I'm a self deprecationist, among other things; and b) I'm not ashamed of being imperfect; it makes me more loveable, and I'm always hoping some favorite female coin dealer reads something of mine and maybe, who knows....dinner, soft music.....ya know, you weren't born yesterday, you can fill in the blanks.
We graded the Naftzger coins about 15 years ago or so. I held in my hand the SP65 Chain Ameri (the now TDN coin), the SP67 Chain America, the SP68RD Wreath cent. I consider that event one of the highlights of my numismatic career. And Ted Naftzger was one of the greatest coin collectors of all time...did you know that in the 1950s he owned Judd-1776?
The Chain Ameri in SP65 is one of the great coins in American numismatics. I am wondering why someone would compare it to a Franklin mint item. I am wondering why someone would rag on a 1913 Liberty nickel. Do they possess some superior numismatic knowledge that eludes us mere mortal coin nerds. Do they have even better coins in their collections/inventory? Or are they just trying to a) stir up a reaction by being contrary, b) trying somehow get people to think they are smarter than the rest of us, c) or just saying something so obviously wrong in an effort to be entertaining or to celebrate April's Fool day. The logic eludes me.
I'm not trying to say there are sacred cows, and everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. But when the statement is so inappropriate for a great coin...I mean, perhaps this person thinks the 1849 $20 in the Smithsonian is not that great because it has a few hairlines!?!?!?! As far as participation on the PCGS boards goes...though we had some requests to stifle this silliness...we really can't ban someone for saying stupid things (though I'm considering it since the tone and possible purpose of the post(s) are really on the line).
By the way, one of the smartest and most respected dealers in the market (not me) has offered TDN a $500,000 profit on the coin, (but maybe he didn't see the "spittle!)
Thank you, David. Sometimes, I just have to shake my head and wonder where this stuff comes from. Perhaps some *should* stick to colorized silver bars since they can't handle barely noticeable defects on 200+ year old coinage. Sheesh.
In hand, you don't see lines or spots or anything - just an amazing coin with beautiful mirrors and fantastic luster and detail. If you need more than that, collect moderns.
<< <i>As far as participation on the PCGS boards goes...though we had some requests to stifle this silliness...we really can't ban someone for saying stupid things (though I'm considering it since the tone and possible purpose of the post(s) are really on the line). >>
Mr. Hall,
I've never posted a direct post in response to one of yours, (in fact I don't think I've ever posted a post on a post you've posted on). But I hope you recognize the irony of your statement of considering bamming someone for their opinion on this coin (good, bad, ugly) in light of the coin we are talking about and the time period it was produced.
I would think a few founding fathers would be extremely disappointed in you for acting on this, let alone thinking this, considering you are talking about a coin produced so few years after what they fought for.
Also, profit isn't the motive, nor should it be for something like this. No sense in bringing up what others only hope to entertain in their minds just to ward off someone else who isn't posting in the nicest manner. Remember, your company is built not on TDN's, but on us with coin profits/collectibles in the $5's/$50's/$500's and $5000's.
TDN, beautiful coin, glad you were able to acquire it. I know 0.00% about these coins but I know that most things from that time period don't look that good. You seem like a nice person, with an ample posting appetite who is willing to share his knowledge. I appreciate that and thank you.
<< <i>I'm not certain that is a staple scratch, simply because I cannot fathom someone putting that coin into a cardboard 2x2.
But it's still a scratch, isn't it? >>
Let's see, considering that the coin itself is 27mm in diameter, that makes the "scratch" (if you really want to call it that) about 18 micrometers wide -- that's 18 one-thousandths of one millimeter (or about 1/6th the width of an average human hair). Talk about splitting hairs!!
Nit picking about such nearly invisible things about this coin is a lot like debating about a tree falling in the woods with no one around to hear. Does it still make a sound? That debate rages on, but I think everyone would agree that the tree is still a tree. In this case, the coin is still an incredible artifact of early U.S. history! Besides, no one ever said it was perfect (SP70).
"I am wondering why someone would compare it to a Franklin mint item."
"Someone" (by the way, my name is Adrian) might compare it to a Franklin mint item because specimen coins, like Franklin mint items are made specifically for collectors; specimen coins were made to be saved and collected, much like a Nascar commemorative plate celebrating Ricky Bobby. A specimen coin would not normally be spent nor would one normally dig a piece of spinich out from between their teeth with their Dale Earnhardt NASCAR pocket knife. Additionally, while I have never seen mintage figures for specimen chain cents, my suspicion is that a higher percentage of them survive as compared to chain cents that were minted for circulation. Has PCGS graded any circulated specimen chain cents? Have they graded any other specimens chain cents in any grade? For me, all other things considered, especially the grade of a coin, I would rather have a coin that was minted for circulation than one specifically made for a collector which is likely to be saved.
"I am wondering why someone would rag on a 1913 Liberty nickel."
No one has "rag(ged)" on any 1913 nickel. What was said was "Reminds me of the unfortunate but obvious rim filing on that 1913 Liberty Nickel that finally sold a while back to someone who just plain didn't know."
That statement was made to make a point, the point being that carelessness and "improvements" made to coins bother most numismatists WAY more than distractions that are not caused by negligence or attempts to "improve" coins. My suspicions are that the most recent buyer of that 1913 nickel that was on the market for years from what I understand, had he (she or they) been made aware of the rim filing on the coin (the coin's most recent auction catalog description omitted the fact that the rim had been filed unlike a previous catalog description of that very coin which did in fact correctly and forthrightly identify the "improvement") might have chosen to spend his (or her or their) money on a coin (or several thousand coins) that had not had it's rim filed. Now you know.
"Do they possess some superior numismatic knowledge that eludes us mere mortal coin nerds. Do they have even better coins in their collections/inventory? Or are they just trying to a) stir up a reaction by being contrary, b) trying somehow get people to think they are smarter than the rest of us, c) or just saying something so obviously wrong in an effort to be entertaining or to celebrate April's Fool day. The logic eludes me."
Possibly prior to now, yes since no one before me pointed out the permanent and unfortunate negatives of the coin; however every "mortal" now shares in the same knowledge as I possessed; no (and why do I have to have better coins to point something out??? If that were the case there could only be one person who could post on this forum) ; a) no (I wasn't being contrary; I didn't disagree with any previous comment); b) no; I realize that it's quite unlikely that I am smarter than absolutely everyone here c) the question includes assertions that are not correct because nothing I stated that was "obviously wrong" - kind of like "Do you still beat your wife?". And if you still think I have stated something "obviously wrong" please tell me what was said that was obviously wrong? You tellin' me you know that scratch wasn't caused by a staple? That you know that that spot wasn't caused by errant spit? That I don't prefer circulation strikes as compared to specimen strikes? Ok, what number am I thinking about right now?
"I'm not trying to say there are sacred cows, "
So, there's no sacred cows...whew...for a minute there I thought some coins owned by some people are above criticism......funny thing, I don't remember you defending any other coins...EVER, but I'm sure you have, I must have just missed it. Point it out to me, please.
and everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion."
That certainly means we all get treated equally. Excellent. That's what I like to hear. Frequently. Even better than hearing it, I like seeing it actually implemented. Banning me means I wasn't actually entitled to my opinion.
"But when the statement is so inappropriate for a great coin...
Can you be more specific about which statement I made was "inappropriate"?
"I mean, perhaps this person thinks the 1849 $20 in the Smithsonian is not that great because it has a few hairlines!?!?!?!"
It certainly would be "greater" if it didn't have the hairlines, now wouldn't it!?!?!?! And distractions and problems matter, right!?!?!?! Isn't that why we have grading companies!?!?!?! And that chain cent in everyone's opinion would be "greater" if it didn't have a spittle stain on the cheek or a staple scratch across her face, right!?!?!?! And you would agree that the surviving populations of specimen coins are generally proportionally WAY higher than circulation strikes, eh!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!
"As far as participation on the PCGS boards goes...though we had some requests to stifle this silliness...we really can't ban someone for saying stupid things (though I'm considering it since the tone and possible purpose of the post(s) are really on the line)."
Gee, I wonder what plurality of people requested that this "silliness" be stifled? (At least I can sleep at night knowing that I have never whined to anyone in authority saying "So and so is hurting my very sensitive feelings because he keeps posting pictures over and over and over and over again of a Peace dollar I would rather not be reminded about......wwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!")
So "everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion" yet you are (certainly?) "considering" banning me because of my "tone" and "purpose"? Seems just a wee bit oxymoronic. Just out of curiosity, where is my inappropriate tone manifested and what do you presume my purpose is?
And, when you get a chance, Mr. Hall (I respectfully refrain from calling you "David" like TDN does because as you know, we aren't buddies who do favors for each other), please let me know which one of the rules I have violated, which are set out below for your convenience and which include my comments in parenthesis:
Rule 1) This is not a public forum. This is a PCGS forum paid for by PCGS and provided for PCGS customers to exchange information regarding collecting US coins. We make the rules this is not a democracy. (Fair enough, I respect that even though it probably is in fact a public forum. Notwithstanding that little item, I never diss PCGS on this forum, or any other forum for that matter, or break their rules. Never. Well, at least not anymore. Never have dissed them. Might have posted some inappropriate stuff in the past, especially late at night on the open forum.....on a weekend when Carol wasn't around.....might have.....didn't say "did".....)
Rule 2) Anyone posting crude or vulgar pictures or language will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings. (I have carefully reviewed my postings in this thread. No crude, vulgar pictures or language was included, although out of an abundance of caution, I will re-read my posts and will check especially closely for vulgar pictures.)
Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings. (I have attacked no one nor have I made disparaging personal remarks about anyone. I called no one names nor have I said anything snide like referring to someone's "esteemed numismatic opinion" followed up by a laughing emoticon. Furthermore, I have suggested to no one that they get some thicker skin. Finally, I didn't correct your spelling of "whinning" like Russ, the Coin Ferengengi.)
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings. (I have libeled no one, no company and no other entity. Didn't even think such horrible thoughts while posting here. I'm pretty sure that's true.)
Rule 5) If you have nothing to contribute to an OP then do not post. Snide remarks and other negative comments will result in your losing your ability to post. No more warnings. (I think my comments, as usual, were edifying. I was not snide like TDN and my comments were factual and educational without being unnecessarily negative. Having said that, if "losing my ability to post" means that I will be somehow struck down with something like MS or that I will have a stroke, please advise.)
Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed. (My comments were about coins, and all coins commented upon were made in the United States. None of my comments were about colonials which arguably are not US coins because colonials are coins made before the signing of the Declaration of Independance, the document that begat the "U.S.".)
Rule 7) This is a PCGS forum. Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or service are not allowed. Those posts will be removed and your posting privileges may be removed as well. (I never publicly bash any grading companies, including but not limited to PCGs and Accugrade. Furthermore, I never went on and on and on about puttied Saints, like some people we know. Nor have I ever started a thread like "I'm starting to lose faith in the PCGS Price Guide.")
Rule 8) This forum is provided for the education and sharing of information. Not as a personal soapbox. If you want to learn and share information about US Coins you are welcome. (My posts are always educational in one way or another. Furthermore, I have no soap for sale. None.)
Rule 9) Your signature may contain multiple images and/or links but must be limited to a single line. If you would like additional advertising space on this site please contact our Advertising Department. Violators will have their posting privileges removed. (I have checked my sig line four times and I have been in compliance every time.)
Rule 10) If you don't like any of the rules outlined above see Rule 1. (I love all of the rules outlined above and therefore will not be revisiting Rule 1.)
Penultimately, give me a break! No one thinks that chain cent isn't cool. Would I like to own it? Duh!
Can some people dish it out but not take it? (Res ipsa loquitur on that one......).
<< <i> "I am wondering why someone would rag on a 1913 Liberty nickel."
No one has "rag(ged)" on any 1913 nickel. What was said was "Reminds me of the unfortunate but obvious rim filing on that 1913 Liberty Nickel that finally sold a while back to someone who just plain didn't know."
That statement was made to make a point, the point being that carelessness and "improvements" made to coins bother most numismatists WAY more than distractions that are not caused by negligence or attempts to "improve" coins. My suspicions are that the most recent buyer of that 1913 nickel that was on the market for years from what I understand, had he (she or they) been made aware of the rim filing on the coin (the coin's most recent auction catalog description omitted the fact that the rim had been filed unlike a previous catalog description of that very coin which did in fact correctly and forthrightly identify the "improvement") might have chosen to spend his (or her or their) money on a coin (or several thousand coins) that had not had it's rim filed. Now you know.
And, when you get a chance, Mr. Hall (I respectfully refrain from calling you "David" like TDN does because as you know, we aren't buddies who do favors for each other), please let me know which one of the rules I have violated, which are set out below for your convenience and which include my comments in parenthesis:
I have libeled no one, no company and no other entity
I do find it curious how in this twisted imagination the quote from the B&M Eliasberg catalog of "a small planchet lamination is at the rim" turns into an insinuation that PCGS holdered a multimillion dollar doctored classic rarity [ie: rims filed].
(the coin's most recent auction catalog description omitted the fact that the rim had been filed unlike a previous catalog description of that very coin which did in fact correctly and forthrightly identify the "improvement")
Precisely which catalog mentioned this? I have the Eliasberg catalog right here and it shows the coin was sold privately until its first auction appearance in 1996. I see no mention of any such improvement in the sale. I was the underbidder at the next auction appearance in 2001 and I recall no mention of any such improvement. I was the consignor at its next auction appearance and I recall no mention of any such improvement.
So pardon me if I call bullcrap on your statement.
I would be honored to own any chain cent, 1913 V 5c or 1849 $20 as long as they are genuine. As for the subject piece, I'll let my hands do the talking:
I've been away for a while, and notice that this place is still filled with people who don't care to be positive contributors. Oh well.
Can someone please start another thread on another great US numismatic item or topic?
I have also recently held and seen a virtually perfect speciman 1793 chain cent in NGC 67 brown,,,,,,it was magnificent and the strike and surfaces virtually perfect.
I manage money. I earn money. I save money . I give away money. I collect money. I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
"So pardon me if I call bullcrap on your statement. "
I don't have access to a coin library in Colorado. Check with Brandon - he and I did the research some 5 or six years ago. I have better things to do other than your research.....like laundry or getting the hair out of my brush.
That is a violation of rules three and four: Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings. Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
"Or maybe he's just jealous of Charlie Sheens "godesses". " That comment is in no way related to US Coins (violation of Rule 6) AND it is wrong. Three is a better number than two and ex-porn stars don't even count as one.
"How can someone knock coins they never held?"
Post a picture of a coin with a hole in it...make sure I've never held it....I'll tell you that the hole doesn't make the coin better AND I'll tell you why.
"Its not like this has not happened before. "
Yes, it happens all the time. Someone will post a picture of a nice coin and someone else will point out it's flaws. However, I challenge you to find just one other time when I have been the one to point out the flaws in someone else's coin during one of these back-patting sessions.
Persoanally, this thread has run it's course for me. It was real and it was fun, but like a love affair that has expired due to lack of interest, it should be put to rest before someone gets hurt (like me!) and while we are all....WINNING!
I don't want to be banned and I don't want anyone else to be banned even though my imagination is twisted, I'm off my meds and jealous of an unemployed lover of women of the night. We all had our say and Bruce has a great coin. (Like "Hello".....and in the punctuation of HRH.....!?!?!?!?!)
<< <i>It's always sad seeing a member go out in a blaze of glory while digging their own grave
>>
Violation of Rule 6:
Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed.
Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed. >>
Technically that is a rule 6 violation too.
Back to coins.
On the reverse is that a die crack? I know very little (next to next to nothing), but would like to learn more from those that know more then me. Are they common in these?
(And I totally agree with you that pointing out that someone has violated the rules is not a comment "directly related to US coins", as is a comment pointing out that a comment pointing out that a comment is a rule violation is not directly related to US coins.
The question really is, will the rules be applied evenly, fairly and equally to everyone, since they are broken all the time by many people, some of them wealthier, more likeable and more "sacred" then others?
In the United States we take it for granted that the poor like me (the only rare coin I have is a dateless buffalo nickel) will be treated like the wealthy, when it isn't always that way. And finally, thanks for your comment about freedom of speech. Insightful. Obviously you have been to the mountaintop and seen the promised land. And while I may not be able to go there with you....)
Comments
<< <i>Wow what a cent although I'm still focusing on the young Nicole Kidman comment!
OMG! Right???
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>Very ironic! I moved to Las Vegas about 7 months ago ... and met him about a month ago. We are now golfing buddies. >>
Why did the scene in "Caddyshack" of the bishop golfing in the thunderstorm just pop into my head?
TDN, I think you just "aced" this deal. Your appytite for early copper has gone viral.
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
-Paul
<< <i>Nice coin yes... but Nicole Kidman?
She triggers an automatic response buried deep in my teenage subconcious.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>She triggers an automatic response buried deep in my teenage subconcious. >>
Well that's one way to describe it!
Russ, NCNE
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
<< <i>Very ironic! I moved to Las Vegas about 7 months ago ... and met him about a month ago. We are now golfing buddies. >>
I still find the circumstances of this whole deal incredible.
You, arguably the most prolific collector of our time, personally stumbles onto the deal of the decade by recently developing a relationship with someone 1 month ago!
Thats so incredible.
No pun intended on where you live but what are the odds of that happening?
It has to be an act of God, .........seriously.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
I knew it would happen.
Congrats.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
The Spectacular Nevada Accumulation and TDN’s Collection of Type Coins
<< <i>It's a SP65 ... the cert verification needs to be fixed. It has lovely semi prooflike mirrors combined with swirling luster. The picture shows the details, but not the life of the coin. The flaw through OF is on the planchet.
This deal was mine, so noone but me ever got a shot at the coin. I've already turned down several offers at a significant profit. But these are the kinds of coins that I want to collect - not for sale!!! >>
Geeee, I wonder who came knocking when they heard form a "little birdie" that the coin had surfaced?
<< <i>Too bad it has the "SP" label. Kind makes it the Franklin Mint of Chain Cents. >>
I see - so in your esteemed numismatic opinion, that makes 'The Coin' the equivalent of a colorized silver Statehood bar.
<< <i>Spectacular coin that looks exactly like the way it should! I haven't felt this bad since Tom Cruise married the young Nicole Kidman! I mean, sure she was WAAAAAY out of my league, but I still resented him thoroughly for taking her off the market. Well congrats anyway!!! You Suck!
At one time my chain cent looked like that!
Too bad it was a couple hundred years ago!
But it's still a scratch, isn't it?
<< <i>Too bad about that thin staple scratch emanating from the spittle spot right on her cheek between her earlobe and eye extending out to the rim at 4:00. Goes to show you that two seconds of carelessness can last forever. I guess PCGS didn't see the scratch when they graded it. Spittle spots and staple scratches don't usually bother newbies but they draw my eye like a magnet even more than things like the distraction through "of" on the reverse. I guess it's because you can't tell whether or not the distraction on the reverse was caused by carelessness (I can't tell what it is) unlike the obverse scratch and spot. Things that come with a pseudo butt puckering moment of "whoops' like a staple scratch, spot or a fingerprint seem to bother picky numismatists probably more than they should. Reminds me of the unfortunate but obvious rim filing on that 1913 Liberty Nickel that finally sold a while back to someone who just plain didn't know. I just can't over look that kind of stuff but I would really like to. I guess part of it is that I'm always leery about anything that I think an experienced numismatist might be leery about. But, that's what differentiates a spectacular collection from just a nice collection. >>
I happen to think the coin is amazing, and I just chalk up the microscopic hairlines to the downside of high-resolution photographic enlargements, making mountains out of molehills. I'm sure those things are nearly invisble in hand, but they probably are the reason why the coin did not grade higher.
That being said, I have to ask, if you have a problem such that you are unable to over look such minutia but you would really like to, why would you patronize yourself and call attention to your problem by submitting your post?
<< <i>But it's still a scratch, isn't it? >>
Maybe it's not a scratch...maybe it's the skitch mark from an exceptionally heavy neutrino skidding across the universe.
As to your question:
"if you have a problem such that you are unable to over look such minutia but you would really like to,
a) why would you patronize yourself and
b) call attention to your problem by submitting your post?
Answers:
a) I'm a self deprecationist, among other things; and
b) I'm not ashamed of being imperfect; it makes me more loveable, and I'm always hoping some favorite female coin dealer reads something of mine and maybe, who knows....dinner, soft music.....ya know, you weren't born yesterday, you can fill in the blanks.
We graded the Naftzger coins about 15 years ago or so. I held in my hand the SP65 Chain Ameri (the now TDN coin), the SP67 Chain America, the SP68RD Wreath cent. I consider that event one of the highlights of my numismatic career. And Ted Naftzger was one of the greatest coin collectors of all time...did you know that in the 1950s he owned Judd-1776?
The Chain Ameri in SP65 is one of the great coins in American numismatics. I am wondering why someone would compare it to a Franklin mint item. I am wondering why someone would rag on a 1913 Liberty nickel. Do they possess some superior numismatic knowledge that eludes us mere mortal coin nerds. Do they have even better coins in their collections/inventory? Or are they just trying to a) stir up a reaction by being contrary, b) trying somehow get people to think they are smarter than the rest of us, c) or just saying something so obviously wrong in an effort to be entertaining or to celebrate April's Fool day. The logic eludes me.
I'm not trying to say there are sacred cows, and everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. But when the statement is so inappropriate for a great coin...I mean, perhaps this person thinks the 1849 $20 in the Smithsonian is not that great because it has a few hairlines!?!?!?! As far as participation on the PCGS boards goes...though we had some requests to stifle this silliness...we really can't ban someone for saying stupid things (though I'm considering it since the tone and possible purpose of the post(s) are really on the line).
By the way, one of the smartest and most respected dealers in the market (not me) has offered TDN a $500,000 profit on the coin, (but maybe he didn't see the "spittle!)
hrh
In hand, you don't see lines or spots or anything - just an amazing coin with beautiful mirrors and fantastic luster and detail. If you need more than that, collect moderns.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>As far as participation on the PCGS boards goes...though we had some requests to stifle this silliness...we really can't ban someone for saying stupid things (though I'm considering it since the tone and possible purpose of the post(s) are really on the line). >>
Mr. Hall,
I've never posted a direct post in response to one of yours, (in fact I don't think I've ever posted a post on a post you've posted on). But I hope you recognize the irony of your statement of considering bamming someone for their opinion on this coin (good, bad, ugly) in light of the coin we are talking about and the time period it was produced.
I would think a few founding fathers would be extremely disappointed in you for acting on this, let alone thinking this, considering you are talking about a coin produced so few years after what they fought for.
Also, profit isn't the motive, nor should it be for something like this. No sense in bringing up what others only hope to entertain in their minds just to ward off someone else who isn't posting in the nicest manner. Remember, your company is built not on TDN's, but on us with coin profits/collectibles in the $5's/$50's/$500's and $5000's.
TDN, beautiful coin, glad you were able to acquire it. I know 0.00% about these coins but I know that most things from that time period don't look that good. You seem like a nice person, with an ample posting appetite who is willing to share his knowledge. I appreciate that and thank you.
Nick
<< <i>I'm not certain that is a staple scratch, simply because I cannot fathom someone putting that coin into a cardboard 2x2.
But it's still a scratch, isn't it? >>
Let's see, considering that the coin itself is 27mm in diameter, that makes the "scratch" (if you really want to call it that) about 18 micrometers wide -- that's 18 one-thousandths of one millimeter (or about 1/6th the width of an average human hair). Talk about splitting hairs!!
Nit picking about such nearly invisible things about this coin is a lot like debating about a tree falling in the woods with no one around to hear. Does it still make a sound? That debate rages on, but I think everyone would agree that the tree is still a tree. In this case, the coin is still an incredible artifact of early U.S. history! Besides, no one ever said it was perfect (SP70).
"Someone" (by the way, my name is Adrian) might compare it to a Franklin mint item because specimen coins, like Franklin mint items are made specifically for collectors; specimen coins were made to be saved and collected, much like a Nascar commemorative plate celebrating Ricky Bobby. A specimen coin would not normally be spent nor would one normally dig a piece of spinich out from between their teeth with their Dale Earnhardt NASCAR pocket knife. Additionally, while I have never seen mintage figures for specimen chain cents, my suspicion is that a higher percentage of them survive as compared to chain cents that were minted for circulation. Has PCGS graded any circulated specimen chain cents? Have they graded any other specimens chain cents in any grade? For me, all other things considered, especially the grade of a coin, I would rather have a coin that was minted for circulation than one specifically made for a collector which is likely to be saved.
"I am wondering why someone would rag on a 1913 Liberty nickel."
No one has "rag(ged)" on any 1913 nickel. What was said was "Reminds me of the unfortunate but obvious rim filing on that 1913 Liberty Nickel that finally sold a while back to someone who just plain didn't know."
That statement was made to make a point, the point being that carelessness and "improvements" made to coins bother most numismatists WAY more than distractions that are not caused by negligence or attempts to "improve" coins. My suspicions are that the most recent buyer of that 1913 nickel that was on the market for years from what I understand, had he (she or they) been made aware of the rim filing on the coin (the coin's most recent auction catalog description omitted the fact that the rim had been filed unlike a previous catalog description of that very coin which did in fact correctly and forthrightly identify the "improvement") might have chosen to spend his (or her or their) money on a coin (or several thousand coins) that had not had it's rim filed. Now you know.
"Do they possess some superior numismatic knowledge that eludes us mere mortal coin nerds. Do they have even better coins in their collections/inventory? Or are they just trying to a) stir up a reaction by being contrary, b) trying somehow get people to think they are smarter than the rest of us, c) or just saying something so obviously wrong in an effort to be entertaining or to celebrate April's Fool day. The logic eludes me."
Possibly prior to now, yes since no one before me pointed out the permanent and unfortunate negatives of the coin; however every "mortal" now shares in the same knowledge as I possessed; no (and why do I have to have better coins to point something out??? If that were the case there could only be one person who could post on this forum) ; a) no (I wasn't being contrary; I didn't disagree with any previous comment); b) no; I realize that it's quite unlikely that I am smarter than absolutely everyone here c) the question includes assertions that are not correct because nothing I stated that was "obviously wrong" - kind of like "Do you still beat your wife?". And if you still think I have stated something "obviously wrong" please tell me what was said that was obviously wrong? You tellin' me you know that scratch wasn't caused by a staple? That you know that that spot wasn't caused by errant spit? That I don't prefer circulation strikes as compared to specimen strikes? Ok, what number am I thinking about right now?
"I'm not trying to say there are sacred cows, "
So, there's no sacred cows...whew...for a minute there I thought some coins owned by some people are above criticism......funny thing, I don't remember you defending any other coins...EVER, but I'm sure you have, I must have just missed it. Point it out to me, please.
and everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion."
That certainly means we all get treated equally. Excellent. That's what I like to hear. Frequently. Even better than hearing it, I like seeing it actually implemented. Banning me means I wasn't actually entitled to my opinion.
"But when the statement is so inappropriate for a great coin...
Can you be more specific about which statement I made was "inappropriate"?
"I mean, perhaps this person thinks the 1849 $20 in the Smithsonian is not that great because it has a few hairlines!?!?!?!"
It certainly would be "greater" if it didn't have the hairlines, now wouldn't it!?!?!?! And distractions and problems matter, right!?!?!?! Isn't that why we have grading companies!?!?!?! And that chain cent in everyone's opinion would be "greater" if it didn't have a spittle stain on the cheek or a staple scratch across her face, right!?!?!?! And you would agree that the surviving populations of specimen coins are generally proportionally WAY higher than circulation strikes, eh!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!!?!?!?!
"As far as participation on the PCGS boards goes...though we had some requests to stifle this silliness...we really can't ban someone for saying stupid things (though I'm considering it since the tone and possible purpose of the post(s) are really on the line)."
Gee, I wonder what plurality of people requested that this "silliness" be stifled? (At least I can sleep at night knowing that I have never whined to anyone in authority saying "So and so is hurting my very sensitive feelings because he keeps posting pictures over and over and over and over again of a Peace dollar I would rather not be reminded about......wwwwwwwhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!")
So "everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion" yet you are (certainly?) "considering" banning me because of my "tone" and "purpose"? Seems just a wee bit oxymoronic. Just out of curiosity, where is my inappropriate tone manifested and what do you presume my purpose is?
And, when you get a chance, Mr. Hall (I respectfully refrain from calling you "David" like TDN does because as you know, we aren't buddies who do favors for each other), please let me know which one of the rules I have violated, which are set out below for your convenience and which include my comments in parenthesis:
Rule 1) This is not a public forum. This is a PCGS forum paid for by PCGS and provided for PCGS customers to exchange information regarding collecting US coins. We make the rules this is not a democracy. (Fair enough, I respect that even though it probably is in fact a public forum. Notwithstanding that little item, I never diss PCGS on this forum, or any other forum for that matter, or break their rules. Never. Well, at least not anymore. Never have dissed them. Might have posted some inappropriate stuff in the past, especially late at night on the open forum.....on a weekend when Carol wasn't around.....might have.....didn't say "did".....)
Rule 2) Anyone posting crude or vulgar pictures or language will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings. (I have carefully reviewed my postings in this thread. No crude, vulgar pictures or language was included, although out of an abundance of caution, I will re-read my posts and will check especially closely for vulgar pictures.)
Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings. (I have attacked no one nor have I made disparaging personal remarks about anyone. I called no one names nor have I said anything snide like referring to someone's "esteemed numismatic opinion" followed up by a laughing emoticon. Furthermore, I have suggested to no one that they get some thicker skin. Finally, I didn't correct your spelling of "whinning" like Russ, the Coin Ferengengi.)
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings. (I have libeled no one, no company and no other entity. Didn't even think such horrible thoughts while posting here. I'm pretty sure that's true.)
Rule 5) If you have nothing to contribute to an OP then do not post. Snide remarks and other negative comments will result in your losing your ability to post. No more warnings. (I think my comments, as usual, were edifying. I was not snide like TDN and my comments were factual and educational without being unnecessarily negative. Having said that, if "losing my ability to post" means that I will be somehow struck down with something like MS or that I will have a stroke, please advise.)
Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed. (My comments were about coins, and all coins commented upon were made in the United States. None of my comments were about colonials which arguably are not US coins because colonials are coins made before the signing of the Declaration of Independance, the document that begat the "U.S.".)
Rule 7) This is a PCGS forum. Posts promoting or bashing other grading companies or service are not allowed. Those posts will be removed and your posting privileges may be removed as well. (I never publicly bash any grading companies, including but not limited to PCGs and Accugrade. Furthermore, I never went on and on and on about puttied Saints, like some people we know. Nor have I ever started a thread like "I'm starting to lose faith in the PCGS Price Guide.")
Rule 8) This forum is provided for the education and sharing of information. Not as a personal soapbox. If you want to learn and share information about US Coins you are welcome. (My posts are always educational in one way or another. Furthermore, I have no soap for sale. None.)
Rule 9) Your signature may contain multiple images and/or links but must be limited to a single line. If you would like additional advertising space on this site please contact our Advertising Department. Violators will have their posting privileges removed. (I have checked my sig line four times and I have been in compliance every time.)
Rule 10) If you don't like any of the rules outlined above see Rule 1. (I love all of the rules outlined above and therefore will not be revisiting Rule 1.)
Penultimately, give me a break! No one thinks that chain cent isn't cool. Would I like to own it? Duh!
Can some people dish it out but not take it? (Res ipsa loquitur on that one......).
<< <i>In hand, you don't see lines or spots or anything... >>
No of course you can't see them....they're magic!
Hey ... come on now
Wondercoin
<< <i>
"I am wondering why someone would rag on a 1913 Liberty nickel."
No one has "rag(ged)" on any 1913 nickel. What was said was "Reminds me of the unfortunate but obvious rim filing on that 1913 Liberty Nickel that finally sold a while back to someone who just plain didn't know."
That statement was made to make a point, the point being that carelessness and "improvements" made to coins bother most numismatists WAY more than distractions that are not caused by negligence or attempts to "improve" coins. My suspicions are that the most recent buyer of that 1913 nickel that was on the market for years from what I understand, had he (she or they) been made aware of the rim filing on the coin (the coin's most recent auction catalog description omitted the fact that the rim had been filed unlike a previous catalog description of that very coin which did in fact correctly and forthrightly identify the "improvement") might have chosen to spend his (or her or their) money on a coin (or several thousand coins) that had not had it's rim filed. Now you know.
And, when you get a chance, Mr. Hall (I respectfully refrain from calling you "David" like TDN does because as you know, we aren't buddies who do favors for each other), please let me know which one of the rules I have violated, which are set out below for your convenience and which include my comments in parenthesis:
>>
I do find it curious how in this twisted imagination the quote from the B&M Eliasberg catalog of "a small planchet lamination is at the rim" turns into an insinuation that PCGS holdered a multimillion dollar doctored classic rarity [ie: rims filed].
Precisely which catalog mentioned this? I have the Eliasberg catalog right here and it shows the coin was sold privately until its first auction appearance in 1996. I see no mention of any such improvement in the sale. I was the underbidder at the next auction appearance in 2001 and I recall no mention of any such improvement. I was the consignor at its next auction appearance and I recall no mention of any such improvement.
So pardon me if I call bullcrap on your statement.
I've been away for a while, and notice that this place is still filled with people who don't care to be positive contributors. Oh well.
Can someone please start another thread on another great US numismatic item or topic?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
How can someone knock coins they never held? Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Its not like this has not happened before.
I have also recently held and seen a virtually perfect speciman 1793 chain cent in NGC 67 brown,,,,,,it was magnificent and the strike and surfaces virtually perfect.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>I do find it curious how in this twisted imagination... >>
Twisted imagination? Sounds like you are violating Rule 3):
"Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings."
I'm sure though, this won't be applied to you; you won't get banned, Mr. Sacred Cow. I bet you don't even get a warning.
I don't have access to a coin library in Colorado. Check with Brandon - he and I did the research some 5 or six years ago. I have better things to do other than your research.....like laundry or getting the hair out of my brush.
That is a violation of rules three and four:
Rule 3) Anyone attacking another poster or making disparaging personal remarks will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
Rule 4) Anyone making libelous remarks concerning any individual, any company, or any other entity will no longer be allowed to post. No more warnings.
"Or maybe he's just jealous of Charlie Sheens "godesses". "
That comment is in no way related to US Coins (violation of Rule 6) AND it is wrong. Three is a better number than two and ex-porn stars don't even count as one.
"How can someone knock coins they never held?"
Post a picture of a coin with a hole in it...make sure I've never held it....I'll tell you that the hole doesn't make the coin better AND I'll tell you why.
"Its not like this has not happened before. "
Yes, it happens all the time. Someone will post a picture of a nice coin and someone else will point out it's flaws. However, I challenge you to find just one other time when I have been the one to point out the flaws in someone else's coin during one of these back-patting sessions.
I don't want to be banned and I don't want anyone else to be banned even though my imagination is twisted, I'm off my meds and jealous of an unemployed lover of women of the night. We all had our say and Bruce has a great coin. (Like "Hello".....and in the punctuation of HRH.....!?!?!?!?!)
<< <i>It's always sad seeing a member go out in a blaze of glory while digging their own grave
Violation of Rule 6:
Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed.
<< <i>
Violation of Rule 6:
Rule 6) This forum is about US Coins. If your post is not directly related to US Coins then this is the wrong forum. Do not post it or your posting privileges may be removed. >>
Technically that is a rule 6 violation too.
Back to coins.
On the reverse is that a die crack? I know very little (next to next to nothing), but would like to learn more from those that know more then me. Are they common in these?
(And I totally agree with you that pointing out that someone has violated the rules is not a comment "directly related to US coins", as is a comment pointing out that a comment pointing out that a comment is a rule violation is not directly related to US coins.
The question really is, will the rules be applied evenly, fairly and equally to everyone, since they are broken all the time by many people, some of them wealthier, more likeable and more "sacred" then others?
In the United States we take it for granted that the poor like me (the only rare coin I have is a dateless buffalo nickel) will be treated like the wealthy, when it isn't always that way. And finally, thanks for your comment about freedom of speech. Insightful. Obviously you have been to the mountaintop and seen the promised land. And while I may not be able to go there with you....)