Copper cent rolls in a collapse

BBN

I do not buy into the SHTF theory, but I am curious of the opinions here. Would rolls of pre 1982 copper cents be of any value in a trading system like gold and silver for small purchases like bread or eggs?

Baley

in a SHTF scenario, would YOU take them in exchange for YOUR bread and eggs?

RedTiger

If times get really bad, money with metal value gets hidden and the rest gets spent. That's what happened during the Civil War and were a big reason for the Civil War Tokens. Now, if things get that bad, there will be a lot more to worry about than rolls of cents. It takes a boatload of cents to buy anything useful in any quantity. For example, how many cents does an average family need to buy a week's worth of food? Let's estimate a hundred pounds worth of cents at $1.60 per pound at face value, and that's for just one week, so it does not seem a practical idea unless a person has special circumstances. The storage area, the strain of moving the weight around make copper unwieldy unless a person has an industrial use for it as well.

I do sense an extra dose of doom and gloom on the forum these days. Folks, the U.S. isn't Egypt, or Albania where there is a chance that times are going to the status of 1864 America (Civil War, brother shooting brother, slash and burn military tactics leaving folks homeless and penniless, food riots, draft riots, starvation, martial law, suspension of habeus corpus, etc, etc, etc.). There is a chance the U. S. is heading that way, but it is likely a long ways off. We will almost certainly see it in other developed countries first (not just the poor countries.)

gecko109

<< <i>in a SHTF scenario, would YOU take them in exchange for YOUR bread and eggs? >>




If I was a chicken farmer and had 3,000 eggs per day being produced, you are damn right i'd take them!

What would YOU do Baley? Watch 2,990 eggs per day just rot?

ProofCollection

The cents would be worth the copper metal value of what a cent is made of, just like the silver value of a dime. Right now the ratio appears to be about 1 silver dime:79 copper cents.

Baley

If I was a chicken farmer and had 3,000 eggs per day being produced, you are damn right i'd take them!

What would YOU do Baley? Watch 2,990 eggs per day just rot?

I dunno. Does the guy I get my chicken feed and chicken medicine and chicken wire and egg cartons from, take pennies as payment?

gecko109

<< <i>If I was a chicken farmer and had 3,000 eggs per day being produced, you are damn right i'd take them!

What would YOU do Baley? Watch 2,990 eggs per day just rot?

I dunno. Does the guy I get my chicken feed and chicken medicine and chicken wire and egg cartons from, take pennies as payment? >>




I dont know what he will be accepting, all I know is that he WONT be accepting paper dollars. If all U.S. dollars were to become worthless tomorrow, something would spontaneously fill that void. Since direct barter is far too cumbersome to facilitate commerce, what do you suppose the new standardized trading unit will be? TV's are cool, if you need one...but are not divisible. Bullets will do well, batteries too, but not as much since they have a shelf life. Toilet paper perhaps...soap for sure as well as medical supplies. Gold and silver bullion will both do exceptionally well due to their divisible nature.....infinite shelf life....already established role as valuable commodities....and relatively compact value to size ratio. The thing you need to realize Baley, is that in a total monetary collapse, there will still be commerce. A chicken doesnt stop laying eggs because the DOW drops 2,000 points in a day. Wheat fields dont care about Wall Street derivatives. And a cow will still need to be milked whether the U.S. dollar is a healthy, functioning unit of exchange or not. The bottom line is that the ENTIRE U.S. business base currently accepts little green pieces of paper as payment for valuable and essential goods and services currently. Why do you think they wont accept actual gold/silver metal in exchange for those same goods/services if the dollar became extinct tomorrow?

sumrtym

<< <i>The cents would be worth the copper metal value of what a cent is made of, just like the silver value of a dime. Right now the ratio appears to be about 1 silver dime:79 copper cents. >>



If anyone wants to trade me silver dimes for 79 copper cents ea, let me know.

Baley

I dont know what he will be accepting, all I know is that he WONT be accepting paper dollars.

gosh, you're lucky to KNOW things about the future. Guys like me just have to form opinions based upon information available.

If all U.S. dollars were to become worthless tomorrow...

That's a really, really big IF. Something that hasn't happened through all the booms and busts and crises of US history. Worth Less, sure. "Worthless"? Not likely, ever, IMO.

something would spontaneously fill that void ...

... barter, etc. Fine, postulate all that, the concept is understood. But you forgot to mention Coffee, Tobacco, and Booze

Why do you think they wont accept actual gold/silver metal in exchange for those same goods/services if the dollar became extinct tomorrow?

Where did I say that?? There's that really big IF again. I'll concede, if that really big IF comes to pass, then gold and silver will be among the favored barter currencies.

but we were talking about pennies, remember?

calleocho

The idea of hoarding something that has 3X the metal value and still can be acquired at face sounds great until you realize what a pain it would be to actually go about hoarding pennies.

First I would have to sort these things which would take forever, even with a sorting machine considering all the trips to the bank etc.

The space and weight of say $5K in pennies is half million pennies or about 200 boxes and the whole thing would weight around 3000 punds or so...

Its just not practical. the same amount of money can be had in 3 gold coins or 7 rolls of ASE's

metalmeister

I would stick to Pt, Pd,Au and Ag although I do save pre-82' cents

Overdate

<< <i>I do not buy into the SHTF theory, but I am curious of the opinions here. Would rolls of pre 1982 copper cents be of any value in a trading system like gold and silver for small purchases like bread or eggs? >>


I think the answer is "no", for two reasons:

1) Rolls of zinc cents look very much like rolls of 95% copper cents. Therefore, your trading partner would have to examine the date on each cent, or weigh each roll, a cumbersome procedure for a barter item. This problem does not exist for silver or gold coins.

2) It is illegal to melt cents, or export large quantities of them, and this will likely continue to be the case for the indefinite future. Therefore the value of the copper in a roll of cents is "locked up" and cannot readily be extracted. Again, this problem does not exist for silver or gold coins.

mkman123

Whose to say that when there is a SHTF scenario that copper pennies are worth only 3x melt? They might be worth 10x, 20x, etc!

gecko109

Baley, there is no "if" about it. It is a 100% ironclad outcome that at some point in the future, the U.S. dollar will be absolutely obsolete...i.e. WORTHLESS. That is an indisputable fact! Not some tinfoil hat theory. The only debate is WHEN this will happen. You may think that currency only fails in banana republic regimes, but what do you call a nation that has amassed more than 14 trillion worth of current debt mixed with more than 53 trillion of NPV (net present value) shortfalls in SS and medicaid?

Fiat money makes it too easy to overspend, overpromise, and overextend. All fiat money eventually returns to its intrinsic value....zero. The death of the U.S. dollar is inevitable, as is the death of any fiat, unbacked currency system. Will we see that death in our lifetime? Thats where our opinions differ.

ksammut

<< <i>

<< <i>I do not buy into the SHTF theory, but I am curious of the opinions here. Would rolls of pre 1982 copper cents be of any value in a trading system like gold and silver for small purchases like bread or eggs? >>


I think the answer is "no", for two reasons:

1) Rolls of zinc cents look very much like rolls of 95% copper cents. Therefore, your trading partner would have to examine the date on each cent, or weigh each roll, a cumbersome procedure for a barter item. This problem does not exist for silver or gold coins.

2) It is illegal to melt cents, or export large quantities of them, and this will likely continue to be the case for the indefinite future. Therefore the value of the copper in a roll of cents is "locked up" and cannot readily be extracted. Again, this problem does not exist for silver or gold coins. >>



Eventually, the composition of cents and nickels will change. As China and the rest of the world grows, copper and nickel will see higher prices. Our government will be forced to change the metal content (or may even eliminate the cent).

When that happens, you may see the melting restriction rescinded. Until then, no harm in saving your nickels and dimes.

Nickels may be easier as all nickels have 75% copper and 25% nickel (5 total grams). You can buy a few nickel bricks and stash them away or simpleypull your nickels out of change and put them in a large container.

I am sure everyone would like to turn back the clock (for all of us who are old enough) to pre 1964 and hoard as many silver dimes, quarters, and halves that we could afford. It did not take too many years to have enjoyed a great deal of $ appreciation. Not saying nickel or copper will ever see the percentage gain silver enjoyed, but it is not out of the question to see both metals go up in price by 2 or 3 or more times their present cost/value.

I bought a $100 brick of nickels yesterday and will simply store it. Just a very small part of my overall investment portfolio. Each week I will add to my increasingly diverse investment strategy as I do not have a crystal ball. However, history has shown us that metal prices trend up and I cannot see why that trend will be broken.

Even with higher silver prices, I dollar cost average every week. I do not think we have felt the worse in regards to the eventual affect our budget crisis will have on all of us.

bstat1020

<< <i>If I was a chicken farmer and had 3,000 eggs per day being produced, you are damn right i'd take them!

What would YOU do Baley? Watch 2,990 eggs per day just rot?

I dunno. Does the guy I get my chicken feed and chicken medicine and chicken wire and egg cartons from, take pennies as payment? >>



What came first the chicken or the egg?

I am sticking to AU and AG. Interesting thread though.

roadrunner

Face value is sort of a useless concept. The melt value of the metal in the coin is the important issue.

1) Rolls of zinc cents look very much like rolls of 95% copper cents. Therefore, your trading partner would have to examine the date on each cent, or weigh each roll, a cumbersome procedure for a barter item. This problem does not exist for silver or gold coins.

2) It is illegal to melt cents, or export large quantities of them, and this will likely continue to be the case for the indefinite future. Therefore the value of the copper in a roll of cents is "locked up" and cannot readily be extracted. Again, this problem does not exist for silver or gold coins.

In a shtf scenario you'll need to check the edge on every silver or gold coin you are offered as well. Not much different than today. Going through even a few dozen or few hundred 90% silver dimes can be cumbersome as well....but still needs to be done.

The illegality of melting anything won't have much of an effect in a shtf scenario. If there is a demand for circulating copper and nickel coins, then the underground market will come up with a system to melt and distribute the new product. Alcholol was illegal once too. It didn't stop a huge "illegal" industry from being created. There will be a need for a divisible monetary system if paper becomes undesireable and many merchants cease excepting it. Something will fill that void. The US greenbacks of the 1861-1879 were the circulating currency of the time. I'm sure there were merchants, middlemen, citizens, etc. who refused to accept them.

The most barterable monetary unit in such a scenario will be having a highly desired skill or trade....not a hoard of pennies.

roadrunner

gecko109

"The most barterable monetary unit in such a scenario will be having a highly desired skill or trade...."


Strongly disagree. Being a skilled carpenter in a SHTF scenario would be an excellent skill set to have...no debate. However, as a means of direct bartering it will have very limited options. Unless the potato farmer needs a patio built, or the guy with a herd of cattle wants an addition built, your skills will be useless in terms of "barter". Furthermore, since building an addition on a home might be comparable in value to 300 pounds of beef, even IF the butcher did need the carpenter's services there would still be a glaring gap. This is why direct barter will not work. Some unit with a store of value would be needed to efficiently facilitate commerce. Gold and silver.....and even 95% pure copper metal disks will work well.

roadrunner

Who says it has to be done on one transaction? Why not weeks or months of services until paid off? I find it hard to believe that the potato farmer could not find a single job for a skilled carpenter, unless he has one on staff or does the work himself. Or maybe that potato farmer knows another farmer that does need the patio and he sends you to him. The 2 farmers then settle their differences in another manner. Or maybe that farmer owes the doctor some money and the doc does need carpentry services. But, if not the potato farmer, then why not the local grocer or convenience store owner? No one said you had to get all your food from one guy or only from bartering. If bartering made up 20-40% of all exchanges for goods and services, it would be way ahead of the penny hoarder. Go ahead and send the 300 lbs of beef, I have >100 homes in my neighborhood and could easily rebarter that around for goods and services in return (tree trimming & cutting, floor installer, burner tech, auto mechanic, roofer, etc. all within 300 yds.). And I have a nice deli-convenience store 1/4 mile up the street that could probably use the remaining beef for a tab at their combined hardware, deli, food, gas store. One is limited only by their own imagination. No doubt there would be wholesalers sensing opportunity popping up in the middle of this joining up the varying demands and acting as the "banker," facilitator, exchanger. Only this time it wouldn't be JPM or BoA, at least not in my neighborhood.

Example:

You need plumbing or electrical services for a year from a skilled craftsman:

the doctor living down the street will provide medical treatment for the same gross amount due.
the local farmer, butcher, convenience store owner, etc. will trade you for food.
the auto mechanic living down the street is happy to service your vehicle in trade.
the local roofer - carpenter - landscaper - snow remover - welder - computer tech - day care services - veterenarian - tutor - dentist - hair stylist - liquor store owner - gun shop - etc.

Having a real useful and barterable skill would come in quite handy. There are no doubts hundreds of thousands if not millions of people doing this already therefore it's already working. In a time of crisis when circulating money is scarce (esp of fiat is not accepted) it will only play a larger role. Copper pennies still rank low on the totem pole to me. With our mass produced and distributed food/water today that's probably the hardest to be able to barter for and maybe just won't work very well. But the other trades, skills, professions, would be far easier to deal with. And people spend much more of their money on other goods and services than they do food. They can try and save the gold, silver, and copper coin for food.

And when there was a real gold standard (pre-1914), they used circulating paper "real bills" (ie bill payable in demand in gold) between merchants and consumers to extinguish the key short term transactions, not necessarily physical gold and silver coin. We've already taught ourselves around here that there isn't enough physical PM's to go around to purchase the everyday goods and services we need. So something else will have to fill in that gap...and it won't be "govt-promised" paper. People will be unwilling to give up their silver coin for carpentry services. They'll figure a way to get around that and get both done...while preserving that precious barterable coin for critical items like food and emergency services.

roadrunner

Overdate

<< We've already taught ourselves around here that there isn't enough physical PM's to go around to purchase the everyday goods and services we need. >>

Unless there is a law of nature dictating a maximum exchange value for gold and silver, I don't agree with this statement.

Baley

my goodness, that will be quite a STHF scenario! The dollar, government, and all social institutions will collapse, and folks will live in harmony, peacefully bartering goods and services?

This is hilarious. Tell us, O seeers of the One True Future, what will workers producing all the goods of refineries, factories and farms get paid with?

roadrunner

<< <i>my goodness, that will be quite a STHF scenario! The dollar, government, and all social institutions will collapse, and folks will live in harmony, peacefully bartering goods and services?

This is hilarious. Tell us, O seeers of the One True Future, what will workers producing all the goods of refineries, factories and farms get paid with? >>



You must have skipped history classes from 4th to 12th grade. That's pretty much how a lot of commerce was done in our first 100-150 yrs. Don't need a SHTF scenario for that. I never said or intimated that all institutions would collapse, but they are doing a pretty good job of slowly disintegrating all by themselves. Considering there are less US farms, refineries, and factories with each passing year, there will be less need to worry about how those workers get paid. The real issue is not getting paid, but getting paid with something they can actually purchase something with, without having to discount it. The 19th century greenback never collapsed either. But it certainly wasn't the most desired method of payment from 1861-1879 when the nation was off the gold standard. There's plenty of bartering going on in today's world, you just may not see it at the lofty professional levels that you operate in. But the world that my son lives in, there's a lot of you do this for me, and I do that for you going on at the tradesmen level. Those guys will have a better chance of getting through a tough scenario than the professional class that cannot separate themselves from the fiat based value system.

Back in the days of a real gold standard, the workers got paid in real bills or gold coin. Those bills could be turned in for food and key consumer goods until they matured in 91 days...when they could be turned in for gold coins. I have no clue how our govt would handle "greenback2" when it shows up. However it works out, and as the tax burden continues to escalate, bartering will certainly play a much larger bigger role....the point I originally made. A fiat based world eventually has to be redesigned or fall apart.

If we take all the words goods and tangible wealth, and divide it by the above ground and available gold, the net result would be astronomical. Long before that ever happened, the shtf scenario would certainly come to fruition. While theoretically the gold price could rise to $5,000,000/oz, something would give long before then. I could see it rising to $10,000, $20,000, or even $50,000/oz to balance sovereign, state, and municipal debts, but at some point pricing towards infinity blows up. Gold doesn't live in a vacuum. So on it's way to an essentially infinite price, so goes food, water, and energy...and that's what breaks the system down long before $5 MILL/oz gold.

roadrunner

Baley

We get the concept of the underground barter economy, our community members get local produce, exchange babysitting, help fix each other's broken stuff and do home improvements, the montessori school is a non-profit co-op, we hand down and across barely-used kids clothes, etc. etc.

but this friendly trading operates under the umbrella of American society, which so many of you seem to think is "collapsing"
(unless we don't share a common understanding of the word "collapse", or the expression of TSHTF)

take away that umbrella, (i.e., there's no "dollar" or equivalent to lubricate commerce, in addition to Law and Order to protect integrity) and mobs will "take away" all advantage of physical possession and reduce the local area to the lowest common denominator. Gonna tell me that the Police will work for barter??

So unless you're Mad Max or Auntie Entity or The Humongous, or even the Gyro Captain, you're gonna find yourself either robbed, dead, or following a warlord and helping "defend the perimeter"



PS, currently reading Niemcewicz' "Under Their Vine and Fig Tree, Travels through America in 1797-1799", a very interesting account of life back then.
There's no going back, though.. only forward

meluaufeet

A couple of youtube vids:

My Copper Cent Hoard - FortNikitaBullion

Home Made Penny Coin Sorter Under $40 - Tourney64

BBN

thanks for the responses and this spawned a pretty nice conversation. So, to everyone's opinion, is it worthwhile to start hoarding copper cent rolls or is this a waste of time? I don't mean by actively seeking copper cents through roll searching. I mean just accumulate as you receive them in change.

RedTiger

<< <i>thanks for the responses and this spawned a pretty nice conversation. So, to everyone's opinion, is it worthwhile to start hoarding copper cent rolls or is this a waste of time? I don't mean by actively seeking copper cents through roll searching. I mean just accumulate as you receive them in change. >>



How much is your time worth? If it is more than say $5 an hour, I'd say it is a waste of time. The other side is that it might be a fun diversion for someone with the coin bug. If a person doesn't roll search, they might accumulate $50 worth of face value in few years. Say a person sells it for five times face in an inflationary scenario. $200 profit. Okay. It might have been fun, but that is not going to make much difference to anyone. Most middle class kids would turn up their noses at the notion of doing so much, holding so long, for such a small payoff. As for the barter thing, $50 doesn't buy much food even today, much less if food is in short supply. Better to just stock up on more food if that is the primary focus.

To lighten up the thread, a bit, all of this did motivate me into looking at what might be some other useful barter items. Unfortunately, cigarettes and chocolate only have a shelf life of a year or so. In any difficult times, these will be high demand items with huge trade value. Whiskey or other booze might be better to hoard, though a person can't get that at 1/3 of melt value. Twinkies, despite their reputation are only good for a month. Jelly Donuts only good for a few days, and that's if a person has low standards.