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NGC VF/Cleaned to PCGS VF25/CAC... 1861-C $5

GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
I have no relation to this coin... just thought this was an interesting jump.

NGC VF Details, Cleaned
Same coin, PCGS VF25 CAC

Comments

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is interesting... speaks to the subjectivity of the grading issue. Not a criticism, just a comment. Cheers, RickO
  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,773 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ngc got it wrong? perhaps they thought die polish lines or semi pl surfaces was a cleaning?
    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭
    whats sad is I bid on both and didn't notice, It looks like MA gold that does not have an old skin to me. I think CAC and NGC are wrong and PCGS is right.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>whats sad is I bid on both and didn't notice, It looks like MA gold that does not have an old skin to me. I think CAC and NGC are wrong and PCGS is right. >>

    PCGS and CAC saw it the same way. If PCGS is right, CAC isn't wrong.
  • ebaytraderebaytrader Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
    Without seeing the coin in hand I can only hazard a guess and say the coin was lightened and NGC was overly critical. From the images I see the coin is certainly within the realm of a problem free holder.

  • AnkurJAnkurJ Posts: 11,370 ✭✭✭✭
    NGC can be overly harsh when it comes to giving a cleaned designation. Especially to proofs.
    All coins kept in bank vaults.
    PCGS Registries
    Box of 20
    SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
  • SeaEagleCoinsSeaEagleCoins Posts: 3,262 ✭
    This apparent "flip-flop" is more common than most want to admit or accept...

    In either direction between TPG's and also in multiple submissions to the same TPG...

    This may not be appropriate for me to say ... but here goes anyway...

    It is because of such ambiguity (or read subjectivity) in grades given (or non-grades, as the case might be)... that I have little "faith" in + grades... or stickers from ____ ... and I am also nonplussed image by non-grades, as they can often turn into grades somewhere down the line...


    When a coin can go in for grading 3-4 or more times and receive the same grade each time, I will be inclined to give the + consideration...

    and as for that (in)famous sticker... the businessman in me accepts the marketing aspect of the sticker... and it IS helpful with high end coins and gold (read "more likely to be doctored")...

    yet overall, the collector in me is simply not impressed by all these "additives" nor discouraged (except in regards to my wallet for paying submission fees) by non-grades...



    please note that I am aware that + grades were not a part of this particular thread... yet I do feel it is somehow related to this topic... and anyway... I felt like "throwing it in" the mix image
    Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free image
  • ColonialCoinUnionColonialCoinUnion Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭


    << <i>That is interesting... speaks to the subjectivity of the grading issue. Not a criticism, just a comment. Cheers, RickO >>



    Yes, no question about it. Not black and white - many shades of gray
    Coin Rarities Online
  • LancastercoinLancastercoin Posts: 251
    Wow, do none of the posters above me think the coin has been "healed by a numismatic physician" between the two holders? I mean generally NGC is pretty forgiving of cleaning on Charlotte gold and this guy didn't make a straight grade. Then it goes PCAC? I'm not a big advocate of grading or surface evaluation from photos, but just from the two holders the chance of this being a straight crack and resubmit is zero. Photos seem to agree.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Wow, do none of the posters above me think the coin has been "healed by a numismatic physician" between the two holders? I mean generally NGC is pretty forgiving of cleaning on Charlotte gold and this guy didn't make a straight grade. Then it goes PCAC? I'm not a big advocate of grading or surface evaluation from photos, but just from the two holders the chance of this being a straight crack and resubmit is zero. Photos seem to agree. >>

    I strongly disagree with your assertion that "the the chance of this being a straight crack and resubmit is zero". I think it's more like 90%, and I don't see the photos as supporting your position.
  • kurtdogkurtdog Posts: 1,456


    << <i>I'm not a big advocate of grading or surface evaluation from photos, but just from the two holders the chance of this being a straight crack and resubmit is zero. >>

    I think the chance may even be lower than that. image
  • Halfhunter06Halfhunter06 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭
    That is an awesome roller coaster ride for that coin
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,842 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In old days I had coins that got body bags from one service and grades from the other. It went both ways. Needless to say I thought that the body bag was wrong, which was the reason why I tried the other service.

    Without seeing the coin in person it's not possible to comment intelligently.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • ranshdowranshdow Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭✭
    That is an awesome roller coaster ride for that coin

    ...and will only fuel the fires of the crackout speculators. good gravy! image
  • BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That is an awesome roller coaster ride for that coin >>



    Ballsy $4K profit pot shot!
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>whats sad is I bid on both and didn't notice, It looks like MA gold that does not have an old skin to me. I think CAC and NGC are wrong and PCGS is right. >>

    PCGS and CAC saw it the same way. If PCGS is right, CAC isn't wrong. >>



    Mark I disagree and feel that sometimes PCGS net grades by policy and CAC doesn't as it their whole purpose. I don't think that all MA coins that deserve to be in a holders deserve to be CAC'ed... do you? And I think it was a straight crack and submit by the photos.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭


    << <i>That is an awesome roller coaster ride for that coin

    ...and will only fuel the fires of the crackout speculators. good gravy! image >>

    That fire has been fueled for decades and is nothing new, although it might fan the next Gen of them
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,209 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All non modern coins are net graded. Period.
    Early Dollar Set
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭


    << <i>All non modern coins are net graded. Period. >>


    Is your 75p Trade doller Net Graded or Modern ?!? image
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>whats sad is I bid on both and didn't notice, It looks like MA gold that does not have an old skin to me. I think CAC and NGC are wrong and PCGS is right. >>

    PCGS and CAC saw it the same way. If PCGS is right, CAC isn't wrong. >>



    Mark I disagree and feel that sometimes PCGS net grades by policy and CAC doesn't as it their whole purpose. I don't think that all MA coins that deserve to be in a holders deserve to be CAC'ed... do you? And I think it was a straight crack and submit by the photos. >>

    Fair point. I misunderstood your post, thinking you had said something other than what you meant to. My apologies.
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,209 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>All non modern coins are net graded. Period. >>


    Is your 75p Trade doller Net Graded or Modern ?!? image >>



    It's net graded down a point due to a tiny mark where a camera fell on it during photography and shinyness on Liberty's breast from where a capitol plastics holder was tightened down on it.
    Early Dollar Set
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>All non modern coins are net graded. Period. >>


    Is your 75p Trade doller Net Graded or Modern ?!? image >>



    It's net graded down a point due to a tiny mark where a camera fell on it during photography and shinyness on Liberty's breast from where a capitol plastics holder was tightened down on it. >>



    Her Ta Ta's look just fine to me but I will take your word for it since she is your lady. Besides I tend to hang around with a loser(graded of course) group of ladies and wouldn't know what to do with that class.
  • 09sVDB09sVDB Posts: 2,420 ✭✭✭
    Numismaticly "healed" was my first thought too.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Numismaticly "healed" was my first thought too. >>

    What do you think you see in the second image that causes you to think that? I suspect that you and the poster with whom you agreed are being swayed, by virtue of knowing the differing grading results, and not by the images, themselves.
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭
    i do not see anything wrong with the coin that would stop it from grading except
    it was more then likely cleaned up/dipped to remove any dirt/gunk/whatever in
    the past. I am not saying anything was done to it after it was cracked out of the
    NGC problem holder.

    it is nothing special to me. a blah coin. i have owned others like it before in that
    date range area (1860s) and they are the boring.
  • LancastercoinLancastercoin Posts: 251
    Without a question Mr Feld knows more than I do. That said, despite the difference in exposure between the two photos the coin appears to have more toning in the fields and reverse crevices in the P holder than the N. If this is the case I would also assume any hairlines were mechanically reduced first.
  • FrankcoinsFrankcoins Posts: 4,572 ✭✭✭
    I have submitted coins to both major services which have gone from "problem" to "no problem" and from "circulated" to "uncirculated" with absolutely nothing being done to them.
    Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
  • RedHerringRedHerring Posts: 2,077 ✭
    I read your letter in Coin World Frank. Nice job. image
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    Anyone know where it is now?

    Coin's for sale/trade.


    Tom Pilitowski
    US Rare Coin Investments
    800-624-1870

  • IrishMikeyIrishMikey Posts: 1,561 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Wow, do none of the posters above me think the coin has been "healed by a numismatic physician" between the two holders? I mean generally NGC is pretty forgiving of cleaning on Charlotte gold and this guy didn't make a straight grade. Then it goes PCAC? I'm not a big advocate of grading or surface evaluation from photos, but just from the two holders the chance of this being a straight crack and resubmit is zero. Photos seem to agree. >>

    I strongly disagree with your assertion that "the the chance of this being a straight crack and resubmit is zero". I think it's more like 90%, and I don't see the photos as supporting your position. >>



    Have to disagree with you on this one, Mark. After comparing the two images in full screen size,
    I think the color has changed on the coin. Nothing major, but just enough to diminish the impact
    of the cleaning.
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 14,011 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is my 2nd favorite personal experience along these lines:
    1. Buy very rare Morgan VAM in ANACS VF20 holder.
    2. Coin crosses to VF20 at PCGS on first try.
    3. Coin goes in for regrade not long afterward and comes back VF30.
    4. Coin goes to CAC and gets a sticker.
    When in doubt, don't.

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