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POLL: Is the Carr 64-D Peace Dollar a counterfeit coin?

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Please read all of the options before making your selection.
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
«1

Comments

  • mbbikermbbiker Posts: 2,873 ✭
    You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist. No I Don't own one just my take on the whole thing.
    Gold + Silver for sale on BST, Eagles, Pandas, ATB's...
  • RRich2004RRich2004 Posts: 252


    << <i>Please read all of the options before making your selection. >>



    If those are the only options, then your poll is seriously flawed.

    The better option to add would be:

    These are altered from their genuine state and finish and subject to the regulations of the HPA.
  • JamesMurrayJamesMurray Posts: 4,036 ✭
    Overpriced bullion might be another useful option to the poll.
  • PawPaulPawPaul Posts: 5,845 ✭
    .......just can't let it go

    ........have to keep fighting ...

    arghhhhhhh
  • Tdec1000Tdec1000 Posts: 3,852 ✭✭✭
    Where is the beating a dead horse emoticon at when you need it? image
    Awarded the coveted "You Suck" Award on 22 Oct 2010 for finding a 1942/1 D Dime in silver, and on 7 Feb 2011 Cherrypicking a 1914 MPL Cent on Ebay!

    Successful BST Transactions!SIconbuster, Meltdown, Mission16, slothman2000, RGjohn, braddick, au58lover, allcoinsrule, commemdude, gerard, lablade, PCcoins, greencopper, kaz, tydye, cucamongacoin, mkman123, SeaEaglecoins, Doh!, AnkurJ, Airplanenut, ArizonaJack, JJM,Tee135,LordMarcovan, Swampboy, piecesofme, Ahrensdad,
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,781 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Which version?

    The ones struck over mutilated Peace dollars, or the ones struck on blank silver or copper disks?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,781 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist. No I Don't own one just my take on the whole thing. >>



    There are counterfeit 1923-D and 1930-D dimes in existence. The Mint never made any. Are you saying that they are not counterfeits because they never existed?
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • questor54questor54 Posts: 1,351 ✭
    These objects are counterfeits because the originals were struck. The present existance of any originals are unknown and irrelevant. If these objects were marked 'copy' they would no longer be counterfeits. The overstriking is just the method of counterfeiting.

    If these were counterfeit Trade Dollars from China we all would be raising heck. These should not get a 'pass'.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist. No I Don't own one just my take on the whole thing. >>

    "Imitation numismatic items" are also covered by the the Hobby Protection Act, which defines them as:

    "Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government."
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Does it make any difference how the dies were manufactured?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 23,281 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is the 1913 Liberty Nickel a counterfeit? What about Confederate coinage?
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780 ✭
    I didn't see much "artistry" there IMHO. Manipulation of many things besides metal? Hmmm. Anyway, would a "normal" person (non coin collector) see this as another Peace dollar? What is the problem there? Why blur this line? What motive....? Lots of people "...want..." stuff...

    Eric
  • dsessomdsessom Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If it were really a counterfeit, Dan Carr would be facing charges right now. Fortunately, opinions don't change the law - unless you are a judge or member of Congress.
    Best regards,
    Dwayne F. Sessom
    Ebay ID: V-Nickel-Coins
  • bstat1020bstat1020 Posts: 2,157 ✭✭
    this is getting old...image
    Madelyn's Birth Year Registry Set, Sophia's Birth Year Registry Set, My 10 Best Coins
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,556 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Where is the beating a dead horse emoticon at when you need it? image >>



    What he said. Enough already. Everyone has their own opinion on this topic and no thread is going to change anyone's mind, so let's move on to bashing eBay and following the prices of the hockey pucks!

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>.......just can't let it go

    ........have to keep fighting ...

    arghhhhhhh >>



    At least the two of us have moved on my friend
    image
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • ebaybuyerebaybuyer Posts: 2,984 ✭✭✭
    an altered genuine coin is an altered genuine coin not a counterfeit coin. just as a counterfeit coin is not an altered coin. when carr strikes the coin with his dies he is altering a genuine coin, he is not counterfeiting. if one adds an S to a genuine 1909 indian cent, the result is a genuine coin that has been altered, if carr was using pillar dollar dies over peace dollars, it would still be a genuine coin that has been altered. many people here seem to have trouble understanding the difference between a genuine coin that has been altered and a counterfeit coin.
    regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
  • anablepanablep Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not counterfeit; there is nothing to counterfeit if there is no original.

    And while it may be a fantasy, its not the object of my fantasies... image
    Always looking for attractive rim toned Morgan and Peace dollars in PCGS or (older) ANA/ANACS holders!

    "Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."


    ~Wayne
  • Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,275 ✭✭✭
    Where's the choice "I don't give a rat's toches?"
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
  • OchoRealesOchoReales Posts: 1,500 ✭
    imageimageimage
    Lurker since '02. Got the seven year itch!

    Gary
  • notwilightnotwilight Posts: 12,864 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Please read all of the options before making your selection. >>



    You didn't list all the options....so how can I read them?
  • renman95renman95 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image
  • fcfc Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭


    << <i>If it were really a counterfeit, Dan Carr would be facing charges right now. Fortunately, opinions don't change the law - unless you are a judge or member of Congress. >>



    I guess you are making the assumption all laws are actually equally enforced and
    all possible offenders are investigated.

    Which we know is not the case.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,663 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When I was growing up, Pluto was a planet.

    Now, it's not.

    (Pluto itself hasn't noticed the difference)

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Who really cares anymore?

    Now that 1894 AU58 Morgan dollar in a PCGS AU58 slab that sold for around $1500.00 has me worried.

    My Current project....https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/mysetregistry/album/160794
  • HotfootspinHotfootspin Posts: 430 ✭✭
    Why does this same durn question keep getting asked over and over?

    Mark
    The Secret Of Success Law:
    Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seriously? Are you serious? Enough already! I'm a fan of the coin for sure, but GET OVER IT EVERYONE!!!!!! LET IT GO!!!!! STOP THE INSANITY!!!!

    All you need to do is create a post about the Dcarr peace dollar, type it all out, and then delete it without posting it. get it out of your system but don't clog up ours... sheesh

    And who cares anyway. Ask yourself the question and let it go, nobody else is going to change your mind...

    sorry, but seriously?
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seriously? Are you serious? Enough already! I'm a fan of the coin for sure, but GET OVER IT EVERYONE!!!!!! LET IT GO!!!!! STOP THE INSANITY!!!!

    Sorry, I missed the other threads. Yes, really. I simply didn't care enough about the 64-D to read them. But now I'm involved in another situation with another coin, and I thought the results of this poll could be helpful.

    (BTW, try turning off the CAPS LOCK and chilling out. It's not like you had to respond to my post, you know.)
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • mrcoin3mrcoin3 Posts: 384


    << <i>Why does this same durn question keep getting asked over and over?

    Mark >>



    Because no one has come up with an answer that is acceptable to everyone.
    successful BST deals with Meltdown, Broadstruck, lordmarcovan, MisterTicToc, JINX86, BXBOY143, MBCOINS and others
  • ecichlidecichlid Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭
    As I view the poll right now, 85% of the people who replied do not feel this coin is a counterfeit. Of course the poll does not matter, even if it is a counterfeit, the law has chosen not to do anything about it.
    There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
  • ecichlidecichlid Posts: 1,212 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Because no one has come up with an answer that is acceptable to everyone. >>



    If the authorities don't think it's a problem and 85% of us don't think it's a problem, then why should take that 15% minority seriously?
    There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ...even if it is a counterfeit, the law has chosen not to do anything about it.


    I'm pretty sure "The Law" would act if somebody passed one off as the real thing and lots of money changed hands. Which brings up another question. Is a counterfeit not a counterfeit until it is offered as a real coin?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • hockeyfan9hockeyfan9 Posts: 457
    Who cares? How many times are we going to beat this dead horse?
  • mudskippiemudskippie Posts: 540 ✭✭


    << <i>Who cares? How many times are we going to beat this dead horse? >>



    I don't understand! If you don't like the subject, just ignore the thread. No need to waste your time commenting on it.
  • pocketpiececommemspocketpiececommems Posts: 6,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If I had a 1922 Lincoln cent die made and struck it over a real Lincoln cent would that be a counterfeit? since their weren't any P mints that year.
    Pocketpiececommemoratives

    Lafayette Grading Set
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,781 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Which version?

    The ones struck over mutilated Peace dollars, or the ones struck on blank silver or copper disks? >>



    Andy.......you didn't answer this question..........please do.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • robecrobec Posts: 6,868 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>If I had a 1922 Lincoln cent die made and struck it over a real Lincoln cent would that be a counterfeit? since their weren't any P mints that year. >>



    I've heard there are a few 1922's circulating. It may have been Denver, but somehow they managed to escape destruction. I don't think the same can be said of the 64-D Peace. I don't think anybody even knows what they looked like or would even know an authentic one if they saw it.

    - Bob -

    MPL's - Lincolns of Colorimage
    Central Valley Roosevelts

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 24,419 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The ones struck over mutilated Peace dollars, or the ones struck on blank silver or copper disks?

    Does it matter? Anyway, I was thinking about the overstruck pieces, which is why I phrased my "fantasy" answer as I did.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • PinkFloydPinkFloyd Posts: 1,762 ✭
    Not a counterfeit until an original surfaces. Private fantasy piece.

    Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
  • trosentrosen Posts: 231
    COUNTERFEIT- A counterfeit is an imitation, usually one that is made with the intent of fraudulently passing it off as genuine. Counterfeit products are often produced with the intent to take advantage of the superior value of the imitated product

    definition is compliments of wikipedia.

  • robecrobec Posts: 6,868 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>COUNTERFEIT- A counterfeit is an imitation, usually one that is made with the intent of fraudulently passing it off as genuine. Counterfeit products are often produced with the intent to take advantage of the superior value of the imitated product

    definition is compiments of wikipedia. >>



    There you go. With all the disclosure and documentation D. Carr has provided and by this definition...... Not Counterfeit.

    - Bob -

    MPL's - Lincolns of Colorimage
    Central Valley Roosevelts

  • JamesMurrayJamesMurray Posts: 4,036 ✭
    If conceded that it's not a counterfeit one must also conclude with it's not a US coin either , which begs the question why it's so prominent in so many threads on a US coin forum.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,781 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The ones struck over mutilated Peace dollars, or the ones struck on blank silver or copper disks?

    Does it matter? Anyway, I was thinking about the overstruck pieces, which is why I phrased my "fantasy" answer as I did. >>



    Yes, it matters greatly.

    Mr. Carr and his supporters keep saying that his 1964-D dollars are legal because they are merely alterations of genuine Peace dollars. That is the crux of their argument. Who knows; it might even hold up in a court of law?

    However, back when I was authenticating coins for the American Numismatic Association, we called U.S. coins made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets COUNTERFEITS.

    Mr. Carr and his supporters seem to wish to ignore those strikes. Perhaps Mr. Carr would like to reconsider his decision not to destroy them.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780 ✭


    << <i>Not a counterfeit until an original surfaces. >>




    Mr. Hall thinks that more than 50% likely.

    Eric
  • pennyanniepennyannie Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭
    I did not see the poll but vote overpriced bullion. Some will flip them and do okay and others will lose. In the end they are just 90 percent. I am actually in the i could care less camp, if you want to buy them rock on. Hope it turns out well. I know what my local B@M would offer if any walk thru the door. lol
    Mark
    NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
    working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!

    RIP "BEAR"
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    image The 'final solution' will, of course, only be found in a court of law... which, those in the counterfeit camp, will heartily disagree with if the coin is found to be not counterfeit. So the debate will continue to rage on. I expect this will become as perennial as the AT/NT issue. Cheers, RickO
  • INXSINXS Posts: 1,202 ✭
    Don't really care, my set is in the vault.
    "Well here's another nice mess you have gotten me into" Oliver Hardy 1930
    image

    BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
  • Raybob15239Raybob15239 Posts: 1,359 ✭✭✭
    The poll is disingenuous... the real question is a simple yes or no question: does the Daniel Carr 1964 D Peace Dollar violate the Hobby Protection Act?

    Here's another question for all the defenders of this piece... if Daniel Carr's pieces are OK, are those 1964-D Peace Dollars offered by hunanawai (Chinese ebay seller) OK, too? (And forget the arguements about artistic merits; if Dan Carr can make and sell these with impunity, why can't the chinese makers do the same thing?)
    Successful B/S/T transactions: As Seller: PascoWA (June 2008); MsMorrisine (April 2009); ECHOES (July 2009) As Buyer: bfjohnson (July 2008); robkool (Dec 2010); itsnotjustme (Dec 2010) TwoSides2aCoin (Dec 2018) PrivateCoin Jan 2019
  • mrcoin3mrcoin3 Posts: 384
    "Which answer best describes your opinion? ---None of those listed.
    Is the Carr 64-D Peace dollar a counterfeit coin? Answer is NO!
    successful BST deals with Meltdown, Broadstruck, lordmarcovan, MisterTicToc, JINX86, BXBOY143, MBCOINS and others
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 2,013 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The ones struck over mutilated Peace dollars, or the ones struck on blank silver or copper disks?

    Does it matter? Anyway, I was thinking about the overstruck pieces, which is why I phrased my "fantasy" answer as I did. >>



    Yes, it matters greatly.

    Mr. Carr and his supporters keep saying that his 1964-D dollars are legal because they are merely alterations of genuine Peace dollars. That is the crux of their argument. Who knows; it might even hold up in a court of law?

    However, back when I was authenticating coins for the American Numismatic Association, we called U.S. coins made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets COUNTERFEITS.

    Mr. Carr and his supporters seem to wish to ignore those strikes. Perhaps Mr. Carr would like to reconsider his decision not to destroy them. >>



    Coins that say U.S. currency that are made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets are counterfeits. Had the D-Carr pieces not been struck over legal tender Peace Dollars, they would not be allowed to say "United States of America / One Dollar" least they be counterfeits as well. The D-Carr '64-D Peace Dollars are legal tender, therefore they are not counterfeits.

    Now, another question to ask, would be are they forgeries...



    image
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    >>>My Collection

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