<< <i>Don't really care, my set is in the vault. >>
I buried mine in an underground bunker in an undisclosed location; safe from confiscation by the government, or extra terrestrial aliens
Being a fan of these pieces, I read the Carr threads, but I am absolutely amazed at how this debate can go on, and on, and on with ZERO resolution. In the end, I doubt any of us here is a true expert on the law. Except maybe Daniel Carr himself, considering after all, he is the one who put his neck and company on the line and I doubt he would risk it without confidence in his actions.
<< <i>The ones struck over mutilated Peace dollars, or the ones struck on blank silver or copper disks?
Does it matter? Anyway, I was thinking about the overstruck pieces, which is why I phrased my "fantasy" answer as I did. >>
Yes, it matters greatly.
Mr. Carr and his supporters keep saying that his 1964-D dollars are legal because they are merely alterations of genuine Peace dollars. That is the crux of their argument. Who knows; it might even hold up in a court of law?
However, back when I was authenticating coins for the American Numismatic Association, we called U.S. coins made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets COUNTERFEITS.
Mr. Carr and his supporters seem to wish to ignore those strikes. Perhaps Mr. Carr would like to reconsider his decision not to destroy them. >>
Coins that say U.S. currency that are made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets are counterfeits. Had the D-Carr pieces not been struck over legal tender Peace Dollars, they would not be allowed to say "United States of America / One Dollar" least they be counterfeits as well. The D-Carr '64-D Peace Dollars are legal tender, therefore they are not counterfeits.
Now, another question to ask, would be are they forgeries...
>>
Once again, not all of Mr. Carr's strikes were done on legal tender Peace dollars. Some were made on plain disks of silver or copper. The "altered genuine coins" defense does not work with these.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>The ones struck over mutilated Peace dollars, or the ones struck on blank silver or copper disks?
Does it matter? Anyway, I was thinking about the overstruck pieces, which is why I phrased my "fantasy" answer as I did. >>
Yes, it matters greatly.
Mr. Carr and his supporters keep saying that his 1964-D dollars are legal because they are merely alterations of genuine Peace dollars. That is the crux of their argument. Who knows; it might even hold up in a court of law?
However, back when I was authenticating coins for the American Numismatic Association, we called U.S. coins made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets COUNTERFEITS.
Mr. Carr and his supporters seem to wish to ignore those strikes. Perhaps Mr. Carr would like to reconsider his decision not to destroy them. >>
Coins that say U.S. currency that are made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets are counterfeits. Had the D-Carr pieces not been struck over legal tender Peace Dollars, they would not be allowed to say "United States of America / One Dollar" least they be counterfeits as well. The D-Carr '64-D Peace Dollars are legal tender, therefore they are not counterfeits.
Now, another question to ask, would be are they forgeries...
>>
Once again, not all of Mr. Carr's strikes were done on legal tender Peace dollars. Some were made on plain disks of silver or copper. The "altered genuine coins" defense does not work with these. >>
One thing we can all agree on, it's obviously not anything that resembles what we're accustom to collecting. It's not a "counterfeit" in the true sense of how counterfeit coins are made. But than again, I see little difference in using blank silver planchets or silver dollars. It's not a "copy" or a replica, in that sense either. It's more like an altered dated coin except the entire coin was plated to make it look like something else. Like I said, it's not anything that most usually collect, altered dates/coins.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
<< <i>You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist. No I Don't own one just my take on the whole thing. >>
Yes you can.
2016 quarters do not exist but they could easily be made up in which case they would be considered counterfeit and easily passable.
I believe that composition has a lot to do with the interpretation of counterfeit since, in the old days, when circulating coins were made with silver or gold, it was relatively easy (as shown by today's Chinese Counterfeiters) to make a non-precious metal disk look like it's precious metal coin counterpart. In such cases, those base metal coins really had no value to general consumers that relied upon the PM content to at least support the coins minted value and insure that the government wasn't just coining money without having some type of "real" financial backing. Take away the base metal value and you have just another token.
For today's coins, even though they are comprised of lowly copper and nickel, they still have the backing of the financial "trust" of the US Government for value.
BTW, anybody have any counterfeit SAC's to share? Preferably dated 2016.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I voted the 2nd option, but am under the impression that every piece that left his ownership was overstruck on a genuine US dollar. Captain, were pieces struck on blank planchets actually released? Because that would be counterfeiting, plain and simple. I was under the impression that only die adjustment strikes were made on blank disks, then later destroyed.
<< <i>I voted the 2nd option, but am under the impression that every piece that left his ownership was overstruck on a genuine US dollar. Captain, were pieces struck on blank planchets actually released? Because that would be counterfeiting, plain and simple. I was under the impression that only die adjustment strikes were made on blank disks, then later destroyed. >>
Mr. Carr has admitted that he struck 1964-D Peace dollars on plain silver or copper disks. Where they are today I could not say.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>he does nice work, but I have no interest in one. I like his original stuff better.
I seriously think his 64-D is a slap in the mints face- are those marked copy?
that makes the world of diff IMHO >>
None of his 1964-D Peace dollar strikes, either on mutilated Peace dollars or plain silver or copper disks, are marked with the word "COPY."
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>If someone printed $100 bills with similar paper, ink, and details of circulating $100 bill, with a fantasy date, and some slight markings to distinguish it from real bills, would it be considered counterfeit? >>
In the real world, yes.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
if someone took a genuine $1 bill and scribbled it with "where's george.com" would that be counterfeiting as well ? after all, you are altering the look of the bill, just as overstriking a dollar coin with a different date. how about love tokens ? those are counterfeit as well, what about holed coins ? are those counterfeit ? now if carr struck dollars on blank planchets that HE produced, that WOULD be counterfeiting.
regardless of how many posts I have, I don't consider myself an "expert" at anything
<< <i> now if carr struck dollars on blank planchets that HE produced, that WOULD be counterfeiting. >>
He did.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Mr. Carr has admitted that he struck 1964-D Peace dollars on plain silver or copper disks. Where they are today I could not say. >>
Some were destroyed. All that remain are still in my posession and will remain there. I will either destroy them, or mark them "COPY" once I'm finished studying them.
if I am not mistaken, if you take a paper dollar, set it on fire and then deliver it to the appropriate authorities, they can analyze the remains, and will give you back your dollar, brand new. and they don't call it a counterfeit.
Counterfeit to me means intention to defraud, mislead, and or fool. DCarr has no intention of fooling anyone, and clearly discloses how the 64 dollar was made. So NO, it's not a counterfeit. Mark Hofmann was in the counterfeit business, and fooled several experts, his intention was clearly to mislead.
Is this a counterfeit? If I find people stupid enough to take them and start passing them off as US$, you better believe that the secret service will think so. As it sits in my trashcan, not so much I hope - I'd hate to live in the Federal pen. I do admit that I made it, though.
A crude example I know, but illustrative of the difference between production and distribution, which seems to be the crux of the anti-counterfeiting statutes. A photograph of both sides of a $100 bill, or a bill altered with a magic marker to show a different denomination would probably be better examples but less amusing to me than a handdrawn on a Chinese reference book.
When Dan started this project years ago I was truly worried about the possibly of a charge of counterfeiting against him. But after some reading, I think the language in the HPA seems to leave him room to work on the right side of the law.
Notice that the Carr 1964-D coins are going for a lot more than the other non-Carr versions. I guess it's only a matter of time before Chinese counterfeiting starts happening.
Improperly Cleaned, Our passion for numismatics is Genuine! Now featuring correct spelling.
the D.Carr Peace Dollar controversy will seemingly never end ........... lets get them all to the top until everyone has has their fill and are plumb sick of the issue
<< <i>the D.Carr Peace Dollar controversy will seemingly never end ........... lets get them all to the top until everyone has has their fill and are plumb sick of the issue >>
Some people are at least discussing. You're just spamming the same sentence into all the threads.
Comments
<< <i>Don't really care, my set is in the vault. >>
I buried mine in an underground bunker in an undisclosed location; safe from confiscation by the government, or extra terrestrial aliens
Being a fan of these pieces, I read the Carr threads, but I am absolutely amazed at how this debate can go on, and on, and on with ZERO resolution. In the end, I doubt any of us here is a true expert on the law. Except maybe Daniel Carr himself, considering after all, he is the one who put his neck and company on the line and I doubt he would risk it without confidence in his actions.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The ones struck over mutilated Peace dollars, or the ones struck on blank silver or copper disks?
Does it matter? Anyway, I was thinking about the overstruck pieces, which is why I phrased my "fantasy" answer as I did. >>
Yes, it matters greatly.
Mr. Carr and his supporters keep saying that his 1964-D dollars are legal because they are merely alterations of genuine Peace dollars. That is the crux of their argument. Who knows; it might even hold up in a court of law?
However, back when I was authenticating coins for the American Numismatic Association, we called U.S. coins made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets COUNTERFEITS.
Mr. Carr and his supporters seem to wish to ignore those strikes. Perhaps Mr. Carr would like to reconsider his decision not to destroy them. >>
Coins that say U.S. currency that are made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets are counterfeits. Had the D-Carr pieces not been struck over legal tender Peace Dollars, they would not be allowed to say "United States of America / One Dollar" least they be counterfeits as well. The D-Carr '64-D Peace Dollars are legal tender, therefore they are not counterfeits.
Now, another question to ask, would be are they forgeries...
Once again, not all of Mr. Carr's strikes were done on legal tender Peace dollars. Some were made on plain disks of silver or copper. The "altered genuine coins" defense does not work with these.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The ones struck over mutilated Peace dollars, or the ones struck on blank silver or copper disks?
Does it matter? Anyway, I was thinking about the overstruck pieces, which is why I phrased my "fantasy" answer as I did. >>
Yes, it matters greatly.
Mr. Carr and his supporters keep saying that his 1964-D dollars are legal because they are merely alterations of genuine Peace dollars. That is the crux of their argument. Who knows; it might even hold up in a court of law?
However, back when I was authenticating coins for the American Numismatic Association, we called U.S. coins made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets COUNTERFEITS.
Mr. Carr and his supporters seem to wish to ignore those strikes. Perhaps Mr. Carr would like to reconsider his decision not to destroy them. >>
Coins that say U.S. currency that are made from privately-made dies on privately-made planchets are counterfeits. Had the D-Carr pieces not been struck over legal tender Peace Dollars, they would not be allowed to say "United States of America / One Dollar" least they be counterfeits as well. The D-Carr '64-D Peace Dollars are legal tender, therefore they are not counterfeits.
Now, another question to ask, would be are they forgeries...
Once again, not all of Mr. Carr's strikes were done on legal tender Peace dollars. Some were made on plain disks of silver or copper. The "altered genuine coins" defense does not work with these. >>
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I like the comment that it's just 90% silver after all ;
that could be said for nearly every U.S. silver coin minted in the past 200 years
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
<< <i>You can't counterfeit something that doesn't exist. No I Don't own one just my take on the whole thing. >>
Yes you can.
2016 quarters do not exist but they could easily be made up in which case they would be considered counterfeit and easily passable.
I believe that composition has a lot to do with the interpretation of counterfeit since, in the old days, when circulating coins were made with silver or gold, it was relatively easy (as shown by today's Chinese Counterfeiters) to make a non-precious metal disk look like it's precious metal coin counterpart. In such cases, those base metal coins really had no value to general consumers that relied upon the PM content to at least support the coins minted value and insure that the government wasn't just coining money without having some type of "real" financial backing. Take away the base metal value and you have just another token.
For today's coins, even though they are comprised of lowly copper and nickel, they still have the backing of the financial "trust" of the US Government for value.
BTW, anybody have any counterfeit SAC's to share? Preferably dated 2016.
The name is LEE!
I seriously think his 64-D is a slap in the mints face- are those marked copy?
that makes the world of diff IMHO
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>I voted the 2nd option, but am under the impression that every piece that left his ownership was overstruck on a genuine US dollar. Captain, were pieces struck on blank planchets actually released? Because that would be counterfeiting, plain and simple. I was under the impression that only die adjustment strikes were made on blank disks, then later destroyed. >>
Mr. Carr has admitted that he struck 1964-D Peace dollars on plain silver or copper disks.
Where they are today I could not say.
<< <i>Not a counterfeit until an original surfaces. Private fantasy piece. >>
that makes total sense, and I agree
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>he does nice work, but I have no interest in one. I like his original stuff better.
I seriously think his 64-D is a slap in the mints face- are those marked copy?
that makes the world of diff IMHO >>
None of his 1964-D Peace dollar strikes, either on mutilated Peace dollars or plain silver or copper disks, are marked with the word "COPY."
<< <i>If someone printed $100 bills with similar paper, ink, and details of circulating $100 bill, with a fantasy date, and some slight markings to distinguish it from real bills, would it be considered counterfeit? >>
In the real world, yes.
<< <i> now if carr struck dollars on blank planchets that HE produced, that WOULD be counterfeiting. >>
He did.
LINK
<< <i>Mr. Carr has admitted that he struck 1964-D Peace dollars on plain silver or copper disks.
Where they are today I could not say. >>
Some were destroyed. All that remain are still in my posession and will remain there. I will either destroy them, or mark them "COPY" once I'm finished studying them.
<< <i>Here is a cheaper, sorta counterfeit option.
LINK >>
Well, you know what they say when someone copies your stuff, "its the ultimate compliment"
if you take a paper dollar,
set it on fire and then deliver it to the appropriate authorities,
they can analyze the remains,
and will give you back your dollar, brand new.
and they don't call it a counterfeit.
DCarr has no intention of fooling anyone, and clearly discloses how the 64 dollar was made.
So NO, it's not a counterfeit. Mark Hofmann was in the counterfeit business, and fooled
several experts, his intention was clearly to mislead.
Is this a counterfeit? If I find people stupid enough to take them and start passing them off as US$, you better believe that the secret service will think so. As it sits in my trashcan, not so much I hope - I'd hate to live in the Federal pen. I do admit that I made it, though.
A crude example I know, but illustrative of the difference between production and distribution, which seems to be the crux of the anti-counterfeiting statutes. A photograph of both sides of a $100 bill, or a bill altered with a magic marker to show a different denomination would probably be better examples but less amusing to me than a handdrawn on a Chinese reference book.
When Dan started this project years ago I was truly worried about the possibly of a charge of counterfeiting against him. But after some reading, I think the language in the HPA seems to leave him room to work on the right side of the law.
<< <i>the D.Carr Peace Dollar controversy will seemingly never end ........... lets get them all to the top until everyone has has their fill and are plumb sick of the issue >>
Some people are at least discussing. You're just spamming the same sentence into all the threads.