Guess the grade of this 1908 NM Saint. (Answer posted.)

nencoin

Tough to do based on images, but what do y'all think?

Obverse

Reverse

illini420

I saw that one in hand recently and thought it was overgraded ______________

Edited my answer to not give anyone too much of a hint...

nencoin

I think some folks will be surprised to hear what the consensus grade was versus the slabbed grade.

ricko

Well.. what are they??? Cannot deduce much from those pictures, very bright. Cheers, RickO

illini420

no one else making a guess??

coinguy1

I'll play and guess MS68.

BigE

I like it, MS66?--BigE

Kove

Curious to know what the slab says, but from the photos, I'm thinking the coin is

MS 66

Broadstruck

I'll take a stab at MS64

tightbudget

66

PerryHall

66

crazyhounddog

67

BillJones

I'd say MS-64. It's got a couple of marks in the obverse field and there is mark on Ms. Liberty's leg.

One of the tough things about the 1908 No Motto $20 gold is that the strikes were often less than perfect and luster only so-so. Trying to grade this coin from photo is even harder than usual. Luster and marks or a lack of them play roles in the grade, and that makes picture grading fairly tough.

chumley

gawd am I off ...was thinkin 62

messydesk

Looks like a 66 to me. I'm guessing it's an ubergrade Wells Fargo?

AUandAG

Very few contact marks....can't tell the luster from the pics....but, I'll say that it
should grade MS67 with the proper luster.

bob

ChrisRx

62

BigMoose

67

roadrunner

A very clean 67. I've owned a couple 67's of this date and this is cleaner than either one I had. The 2 tone gold toning hints that this has the blast and eye appeal needed for a super grade. It's as cleans as a whistle on the eagle, sun, Liberty, and fields. yeah, a minute graze here or there. But take those away and that's what a 68/69 grade is for. Gold coins are typically graded 1 point more lenient than a typically sized silver coin (ie seated dollar, trade dollar, etc.). Don't expect a 67 saint to be as clean as a MS67 1880-s Morgan.

Mark's 68 is possible. NGC used to be much easier on these and this would easily meet NGC67 standards from a few yrs back. Not so sure today but I love the coin. This date often comes real mushy on the lower half of the eagle giving the appearance of rub. This one doesn't have that problem because it looks so fresh.

If it's a 66 I'd love it even more, and would try to buy it.

roadrunner

AnkurJ

AU55

PerryHall

<< <i>AU55 >>



My first thought was that it was a 58 super slidder. Since the coin was relatively mark free and the grading services forgive a slight rub (market grading at work here), I figured they gave it a high MS grade.

AngryTurtle

<< <i>Very few contact marks....can't tell the luster from the pics....but, I'll say that it
should grade MS67 with the proper luster.

bob >>

joebb21

66+

nencoin

"I wouldn't knock that out of a MS64 holder" was a commonly shared opinion of those who saw the piece in person. Click here to see the grade.

coinguy1

<< <i>"I wouldn't knock that out of a MS64 holder" was a commonly shared opinion of those who saw the piece in person. Click here to see the grade. >>

Chris, did you and/or Tom see the coin in person? And, if so, what did you think? Or, did one of you see it, but don't wish to post your opinion here?

nencoin

<< <i>

<< <i>"I wouldn't knock that out of a MS64 holder" was a commonly shared opinion of those who saw the piece in person. Click here to see the grade. >>

Chris, did you and/or Tom see the coin in person? And, if so, what did you think? Or, did one of you see it, but don't wish to post your opinion here? >>



Tom saw the piece in person and felt it MS63/64 quality. Those around him viewing lots shared that opinion, including those he later heard talking about the coin. I did not see the coin myself. Based on the images alone, I think it looks like a solid gem. (But no MS69!)

coinguy1

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>"I wouldn't knock that out of a MS64 holder" was a commonly shared opinion of those who saw the piece in person. Click here to see the grade. >>

Chris, did you and/or Tom see the coin in person? And, if so, what did you think? Or, did one of you see it, but don't wish to post your opinion here? >>



Tom saw the piece in person and felt it MS63/64 quality. Those around him viewing lots shared that opinion, including those he later heard talking about the coin. I did not see the coin myself. Based on the images alone, I think it looks like a solid gem. (But no MS69!) >>

Thanks for your (expected) candor.

crazyhounddog

How in the world could a coin graded MS-69 be thought to look like a 63? 64? I just don't get it? This piece looks as if easy 67 all day long by the images, and they're all washed out, but zero bag marks, looks like a great strike, but because if the imaging I sure can't speak of the luster I can't see but will assume it's great. But I sure do not see a 63-64 coin here.....Sorry!

Broadstruck

Estimated Value $90,000 - 100,000.

Realized $57,500

What a bargain!

roadrunner

One dealer once told me that he loved buying this date because it was so easy to cherry pick gems as AU's and low mint state specimens. It's clear that even today people are fooled by the design weakness in the eagle's breast and leg feathers and Liberty's breast and left knee. This is a particularly well struck specimen that even with the so-so photo screams gem. I doubt I'd have graded it MS69 but I also have never sat down and compared all the 68's from the Wells Fargo hoard, which this probably was part. The only $5-$20 size MS69 gold coin I've seen was the Eliasberg MS69 1894-s $5 Lib. When that coin was up for auction in 1983 I graded it superb MS66-67. Don't recall which. I was very surprised to see it in a 69 holder a few years ago because it does have some obverse scuffs or grazes that are very obvious. But the luster, freshness and look are to die for....and clearly the finest known with nothing even close. This MS69 Saint probably is in a similar situation though there a couple of other 69's to keep it company. Great coin. But not for me at $57K. I'd much prefer a few dozen lower grade pieces in 63-66.

Don't get too concerned about the slight strike flatness on her left knee. The right leg typically shows rub or friction as well and that knee is absolutely perfect. I've shown my wife some gem and choice $20's over the years and was interested what she would grade this. She really harps on marks and wear. But surprisingly she started off with MS65 and thought maybe even MS66. Thought for sure she'd focus on the weaker design elements and call it AU. So not too shabby. Based on the photo I'd crack this coin out of a 66 holder with no problems. Anything higher I'd probably go the regrade route. I don't recall if I've seen any of the 68's or 69's of this date in hand. But based on the photo, I don't recall seeing anything nicer in person than this.

CoinGuy1 had it pretty much right from the start. 1908 no motto's will never look like a primo 1924 Saint in both strike and blazing luster. Just won't happen. And who knows, if you're lucky, you'll be able to buy an "AU" at your local B&M someday and make a $1,000 or two. I like the coin as a 67 but would not be comfortable paying higher than that without a sticker or + sign. The luster on these tends to be satiny and a tad subdued compared to the 1923 - 1928 common dates.

Is this 69 CAC'd?

roadrunner

illini420

I saw this one in hand during lot viewing as I wanted to see what an MS69 St. Gaudens looked like in person... I wasn't impressed at all and though I'm no expert in grading $20 Saints, I have seen plenty of MS66 & MS67 coins at coin shows so I have a good idea of what they look like.

While it is true this example has relatively few marks, the coin isn't attractive and has very weak luster and almost looks flat. I would have graded it MS65, maybe an MS66 given the issues often found on the no motto examples. But there's no way I could call the coin MS67 or better just based on the lack of mint luster and eye appeal, even if it had zero marks on it (which this coin had several).

mbbiker

If this really Is a 66 or 67 like most people here think that's what it should Max out at wouldn't the high bidder be allowed to send it in for grade review?

roadrunner

What are the chances of an NGC MS69 $20 Saint being reviewed and downgraded for a tidy 5 figure loss? I'm sure NGC thought it over real hard before placing this coin (or any other pre-1934 US coin for that matter) into a MS69 holder.

I looked back at some pop reports 5-6 yrs after the Wells Fargo hoard broke and NGC had graded 145 MS68's and 0 MS69's. PCGS had 10 MS69's out of around 100 MS68's. It's not likely a MS69 was made by a grading "error" between 3-4 graders. There may even be a house policy in effect where anything achieving that high a grade (and risk) gets an additional look from another finalizer or even the "boss." I'd bet the pops of 68's and 69's is still relatively unchanged over the past 7 years. While there was plenty of grade inflation in the 64-66 grades over the past 10-15 yrs, and a small amount in the 67 grade, it did not occur in the 68-69 grades.

The quality of the (Wells Fargo hoard) coins is considered "amazing" in that the No Motto 1908 coins were struck with less pressure than the 1908 With Motto and later dated $20 gold coins, according to the Spectrum news release. The lower relief pieces would attract more marks and nicks more readily to their wide, flat surfaces.

roadrunner

nencoin

<< <i>What are the chances of an NGC MS69 $20 Saint being reviewed and downgraded for a tidy 5 figure loss? I'm sure NGC thought it over real hard before placing this coin (or any other pre-1934 US coin for that matter) into a MS69 holder. >>



This coin resides in a PCGS MS69 holder.

roadrunner

<< <i>

<< <i>What are the chances of an NGC MS69 $20 Saint being reviewed and downgraded for a tidy 5 figure loss? I'm sure NGC thought it over real hard before placing this coin (or any other pre-1934 US coin for that matter) into a MS69 holder. >>



This coin resides in a PCGS MS69 holder. >>



My mistake. I saw what looked like a white ring around the photos and assumed NGC. Makes no difference though in the logic as PCGS. Still not going to be downgraded.
After looking at thousands of WF 1908 NM $20's over a few days I'd bet PCGS was pretty fine tuned as to which ones were the best dozen or so. That's the environment you want to be in when deciding what are the best $20 Saints currently in existence.

roadrunner