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Does an NGC Coin with a CAC sticker usually Cross over to a PCGS?
panther
Posts: 395 ✭
What is Your experience when sending in an NGC coin with a Green CAC sticker in for a crossover? I am sure it’s not a lock to cross , but have any of You had one that wouldn’t cross ?
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I know of a CAC gold NGC coin that DNC'd twice, and when cracked and sent in raw came back 1 grade higher than when it was in the PCGS plastic.
Of course, I have personally had excellent luck, but it seems that I might be exceptionally lucky.
I suspect if cracked out the large majority of them would achieve that grade at PCGS, though it might take a couple of submissions.
roadrunner
Every few months this question comes up, doesn't it? And the answer is always the same.
The green bean means nothing to PCGS. The holder means nothing to them. PCGS graders are unbiased and judge coins on their own merits. If you don't believe this just crack it out and resubmit it and you will see that you always get the same grade...well, maybe not always...just sometimes.
Lance.
Those of you who think there is politics in crossovers just don't get it. We would like to cross over as many coins as possible. We prefer having coins in our holders as opposed to other grading service's holders, especially the nice coins. Think about, it is to our advantage to cross as many nice coins as possible.
As for coins not crossing, but making the grade raw, this is easily explained by one fact...it is much easier to look at a coin out of a holder than in a holder. On crossovers the graders have to look at the coins thru the plastic holders. It's hard to see the coin, especially proofs, and the graders are probably a little more careful (i.e. conservative) when looking at crossovers.
comes up frequently.
Thank you,
Mark
Discover all unpredictable errors before they occur.
P.S. Just for the record (and pride) I'll show off my latest crossover.
Ron
<< <i>I have sent 2 coins to PCGS in the past in NGC holders to get PCGS slabs on them for Registry purposes. Both came back re-slabbed at the same grade. I sent an Antietam commem and a Maryland commem, both 65's in and both crossed as 65's. I kind of hoped the Antietam would jump a grade but no luck. I have no regrets.
Ron >>
If anyone needs help with estimating whether a classic silver commem will cross, please just post as good and number of pics that you can. Through the years, I have a pretty good record (numbers and percentage) for NGC's that crossover, both in same grade or higher. I'd be happy to give an opinion.
<< <i>As for coins not crossing, but making the grade raw, this is easily explained by one fact...it is much easier to look at a coin out of a holder than in a holder. On crossovers the graders have to look at the coins thru the plastic holders. It's hard to see the coin, especially proofs, and the graders are probably a little more careful (i.e. conservative) when looking at crossovers. >>
Makes even more sense considering that stickered coins sent for crossovers will be in NGC slabs, and pre-fang NGC plastic is not terribly clear and scuffs badly. So I suppose if you're going to send a coin for a crossover, polish the slab first.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
Just look at all the graded coin postings where folks "disagree" with the assigned grade.
In a nutshell, crossovers encourage "micro" grading whereas raw coins do not.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Just for the record...one more time...
Those of you who think there is politics in crossovers just don't get it. We would like to cross over as many coins as possible. We prefer having coins in our holders as opposed to other grading service's holders, especially the nice coins. Think about, it is to our advantage to cross as many nice coins as possible.
As for coins not crossing, but making the grade raw, this is easily explained by one fact...it is much easier to look at a coin out of a holder than in a holder. On crossovers the graders have to look at the coins thru the plastic holders. It's hard to see the coin, especially proofs, and the graders are probably a little more careful (i.e. conservative) when looking at crossovers. >>
About the last paragraph. Its interesting that PCGS now admits that some graders have a tough time grading through another holder. Shakes my confidence on a possible cross.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>Just for the record...one more time...
...As for coins not crossing, but making the grade raw, this is easily explained by one fact...it is much easier to look at a coin out of a holder than in a holder. On crossovers the graders have to look at the coins thru the plastic holders. It's hard to see the coin, especially proofs, and the graders are probably a little more careful (i.e. conservative) when looking at crossovers. >>
Well OK. That makes perfect sense.
I was one of those who assumed it *was* "politics", but that is a very reasonable explanation.
(I *still* don't understand why people don't just snap them ALL out, before sending them in. If they are fearful of a "downgrade" then maybe they shouldn't be *buying* them for regrading in the first place, since they are not confident in what they're doing.) >>
In the slab is the equivalent of a "bird in the hand." Snap it out and you risk and you risk "two in the bush." The upside might be a higher grade but few want to risk the downside of the coin being slabbed by PCGS with a lower grade.
<< <i>
<< <i>Just for the record...one more time...
Those of you who think there is politics in crossovers just don't get it. We would like to cross over as many coins as possible. We prefer having coins in our holders as opposed to other grading service's holders, especially the nice coins. Think about, it is to our advantage to cross as many nice coins as possible.
As for coins not crossing, but making the grade raw, this is easily explained by one fact...it is much easier to look at a coin out of a holder than in a holder. On crossovers the graders have to look at the coins thru the plastic holders. It's hard to see the coin, especially proofs, and the graders are probably a little more careful (i.e. conservative) when looking at crossovers. >>
About the last paragraph. Its interesting that PCGS now admits that some graders have a tough time grading through another holder. Shakes my confidence on a possible cross. >>
Not mine. First, HRH was being candidly honest and I commend him for that. Second, while tougher on the graders, it's also IMHO easier, in some ways, to get the same or a higher grade. If you have solid grading skills and a good eye, you're more likely to have purchased a coin in a non-PCGS slab that you "know" would crossover, most times. Get to that point and the odds are in your favor, I think. Remember, PCGS wants to slab as many coins as possible. It's not just about the fees, it's about being the top grading company. Bring them good coins and, slabbed or not, they will want them in their holder.
<< <i>As I see it, since the bean represents the "A" and "B" range for the grade (top 2/3) and since PCGS is going to err towards being conservative on crossovers in the slabs, you need to have an "A" coin or better to cross. Given this, there will be a significant amount of bean coins that DNC. I'm sure all of us that have tried (including me) can attest to bean failures. JMHO >>
Never had a bean failure but, then again, I put very little faith in beans of any color. I know the beans are "hot, hot, hot" now but IMHO, in the next 1-3 years, Secure Plus will come close to putting beans out of business and back into the ground for planting....where they belong.
I think that this is highly unlikely, as the two are completely different products/services, with different price structures, criteria for eligibility, etc. Apples and oranges.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>What does the bean have to do with it? What does the bean have to do with anything? >>
My guess is that the OP is suggesting that, compared to a random assortment of NGC-graded coins, those NGC-graded coins that have been further verified and approved by JA/CAC have a better chance of being deemed acceptable to PCGS for crossover. It makes a lot of sense to me.
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My Toned Lincoln Registry Set
for the record one was an early $5.oo in NGC au-58 cac went to pcgs 55
the other a better date morgan $ that went from NGC CAC 64 to PCGS 63+
both were sent via crossover service and box checked for lower grade okay! time fram about 6 months ago + - a month
<< <i>I have seen many, many commems graded one point too high by NGC, to the point I believe that is their normal. I haven't seen many NGC CAC commems, but the ones I have seen seem to be graded properly. I think some commems in some grades (think BTW and WC in 64 and 65) are randomly graded by the mail-room staff at either service, they don't actually send them to the grading room. >>
Now back to the op's question no the bean does not = a cross because as I said different standards are applied in the grading room.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
<< <i>You can't put the genie back in the bottle; what happens if an NGC coin gets cracked and the sniffer technology declares it an AT coin, etc.? At least with a P coin submitted for upgrade at PCGS you are almost guaranteed same grade unless when they crack it the sniffer is used and they decide it would not be to their benefit to reslab. >>
Don Willis addressed this some time back.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>What is Your experience when sending in an NGC coin with a Green CAC sticker in for a crossover? I am sure it’s not a lock to cross , but have any of You had one that wouldn’t cross ? >>
I sent in gem seated, bust, barber MS coins to PCGS before there was a CAC and none of them crossed. Those all later stickered. At least for gem grades on classic type coins
I don't think it changes the equation any. These kinds of coins have always been hard to cross....even back in 1997 when I first started trying it as the market came off the bottom.
My crossing batting average of 0 for 36 with gem MS seated, bust, barber type suggest that there is more in play here. I'm just wondering if someday I'll ever cross an NGC coin
on my own account? I've had no problems with crossing ANACS or even getting upgrades on PCGS regrades. I've just never been able to cross a gem NGC seated coin. When I've
cracked coins out and sent them back raw, I typically got the grade I was seeking. But that was only for lesser valued coins. I saw no reason to have to crack out nice 65-66-67 coins
worth $2K and up in order to get a "cross." Ironically, the market for NGC coins getting crushed the past few years has reduced the risk of cracking coins out to almost nothing.
It's odd how the market came to that decision point. While the overall market cross rate is 38% there's no way it's anywhere near that when looking at gem 19th century bust, barber
and seated silver type. My guess would be around 10-20%.
I even gave a dozen coins to one of the nation's leading submitters/coin dealers, and they went 1 for 12 with my NGC coins. The one that crossed was stickered but I had never tried it
before. One of my favorite coins was a MS67 NGC no drapery half dime that was graded during the 1989 market. The coin eventually starred and stickered. When sold at auction in
2009 it fetched 3X the going rate for PCGS MS67 coins and 4X what NGC's were bringing. The coin was submitted for crossing 4X from 1997 to 2007 and never made it. Ultimately it
sold for low end MS68 money or 67++ money depending on how one looks at it. No one could ever explain to me how a MS67+ AAA coin in eye appeal, strike, color, and luster couldn't
cross. I've gotten a number of PM's over the years from other collectors of high grade type and they stated they had similar experiences to mine, though certainly not 0%. All I know is
that it's mucho difficult to cross high end NGC gem type, stickered or otherwise. In the future I'll just stick to upgrading PCGS coins via regrades which I've done quite well at. My best
day ever was sending in 3 better date MS65 rattler/ogh seated halves in early 2002 and having all 3 regrade up to MS66. Those 3 coins are worth over $100K today and were plucked
out of a 2002 coin auction. They are also all stickered today as well. A logical (or illogical?) conclusion to this is that I can grade holdered PCGS coins but not NGC coins. I even recall
a really nice ogh 1849 PCGS MS64 seated quarter I bought out of that same 2002 auction for solid MS64 money. While it was a solid to higher end 64 there was no way it should ever go
higher so I never attempted a regrade or anything. Imagine my surprise when I later noticed it went PCGS MS65 (pop 1) shortly after I sold it to a well known PNG upgrader. That
was a case where I couldn't grade a PCGS holdered coin correctly. Story of my coin collecting life: watching numerous coins that I gave up or didn't pursue strong enough getting
upgraded or crossed over by others. Hmmm, that 1890 NGC PF68 Kaufman half comes to mind as well. Now PCGS PF 68 CAM. Not my gain, but someone else's.
1880-p NGC MS63 VAM-9 - MS63 even cross
1880-p NGC MS63 VAM-25 - MS63 even cross
1884-o NGC MS63PL VAM-25 - MS63PL even cross
1887-s NGC MS61 VAM-11 - MS61 even cross
1889-p NGC MS64 VAM-19A - MS64 even cross
1889-p NGC MS65 VAM-5A - MS64 lost 1 pt. (Thought it would downgrade so put 64 at min. Variety worth the difference.)
1891-o NGC AU50 VAM-3A - DNC (Definitely AU, had XF45 as min, must be cleaned or altered? Order doesn't say so won't know until the coins arrive.)
1902-o NGC MS64 VAM-43 - MS64 even cross
1921-p NGC MS65 VAM-3F - MS64+ lost point but got a + (had ms64 min)
If they were all set to even cross I would have had 3 DNC's out of 9 so 1/3rd. I knew the NGC 65's were over graded by PCGS standards but was ok with downgrades on those because of the varieties. I normally avoid NGC MS65's unless they are cheap or rarer varieties. I'm extremely happy with my results.
FYI, I had two other coins in the same order, 1 ANACS and 1 ICG. They crossed an 1878-s ICG VG08 coin even and they downgraded the ANACS 1878 VAM-198 VF35 to VF30. I actually bought the ANACS coin for my low ball set expecting it to get downgraded. The coin looked grossly over graded. I was actually thinking (hoping) it might go VF25.
FWIW, I have never sent a coin for a CAC label and never will. I also wouldn't pay extra for a coin that has a CAC sticker.
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<< <i>You can't put the genie back in the bottle; what happens if an NGC coin gets cracked and the sniffer technology declares it an AT coin, etc.? At least with a P coin submitted for upgrade at PCGS you are almost guaranteed same grade unless when they crack it the sniffer is used and they decide it would not be to their benefit to reslab. >>
Let's remember that the Sniffer is used with Secure Plus, and rarely with regular services. And the Sniffer does not detect AT. It sniffs for banned substances.
The point remains that cracking can be risky. I do it all the time for CBH's and have never suffered BB's. But colorful copper is very risky.
I agree with coinbuf. It isn't looser/tighter grading. It's different standards between the TPG's. Five years ago I crossed more than 40 NGC small cents. Roughly half dropped a point or more and/or a color grade. It was a great lesson I won't forget.
Lance.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I don't see the point in crossing over especially if the coin has a CAC sticker. >>
PCGS coins almost always sell for more money. It's as simple as that. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
That being said, I have submitted NGC CAC'd coins to PCGS and they have not crossed at the same grade. In a few rare instances, the coin has upgraded.
Here is one of them. This upgraded to XF40, and was green stickered by CAC.
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Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
That said, it's threads like this that keep me coming back. The knowledge and experience of the collectors on this board is frankly amazing.
Dave
The CAC guy is no where near the room where the PCGS guys do their thing or anywhere else when other company grades coins.
PCGS has an opinion, NGC has an opinion and so does CAC. What does that tell you? You better have an opinion of your own.
On another note, for crossover grading, since these coins are not cracked out for grading, a grading service doesn't include their own holders for this service. It makes sense that they could have combined this new Reconsiderating Service by simply adding that PCGS graded coins will be accepted for this service for the exception that they must grade one point higher and be charged a 1% fee on the coin's increased value.
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
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Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
"I even gave a dozen coins to one of the nation's leading submitters/coin dealers, and they went 1 for 12 with my NGC coins."
2 things about this.
1- If this is true, it is encouraging to know that favorites are not being played here.
2- If this is true, who is it? I want to make sure I NEVER send them coins to send in for me, EVER!
I don't know if that's entirely true, but for collectors who prefer their coins in PCGS holders, it's pretty much the case.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes