Local B&M's are getting tight with the 90% silver
piecesofme
Posts: 6,669 ✭✭✭
Visted 5 local B&M's today and not one of them will sell under $20 x face. I said to all of them they weren't charging $20 x face when spot was $30, so why now a hair over $29?
3 said they dont have much left and not much is coming thru the door so they are fearful that their "replacement costs'" are going to be high.
The other 2 said people who normally dont buy 90% are now, therefore their stash is getting low too.
Could non-cull 90% be drying up, or are the B&M's taking advantage of a little pop recently and using the "low on inventory" line to get as much as they can?
I dont know honestly. I offered to buy half a bag at all 5 places. They all claimed to not have 1/5 of a bag...and then wanted more than it's going for for that $100 FV.
Somethings going on....
3 said they dont have much left and not much is coming thru the door so they are fearful that their "replacement costs'" are going to be high.
The other 2 said people who normally dont buy 90% are now, therefore their stash is getting low too.
Could non-cull 90% be drying up, or are the B&M's taking advantage of a little pop recently and using the "low on inventory" line to get as much as they can?
I dont know honestly. I offered to buy half a bag at all 5 places. They all claimed to not have 1/5 of a bag...and then wanted more than it's going for for that $100 FV.
Somethings going on....
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On the other hand, maybe the B&M's are being smart and just saying their low because they too think another run at $31 Ag & $1425 Au is in the cards near term.
Either way, I came up way short of what I set out to buy today...and this time it wasn't because I didnt have the $ LOL.
"We are doing everything we can to deliver in a timely manner. Under normal conditions we ship within 2-4 days, and even now in these crazy times we are working hard to provide shipments within 1-3 weeks. (Other companies out there are 3-4 months)"
Also, I have several silver common 1 oz bullion bars & rounds at auction ending tonight, with all going for more than $33 per oz...(SilverTown bars going for $37+ per oz)
What's going on?
<< <i>I believe he may be telling the truth...I received an email from Scottsdale today & here is an excerpt from it.
"We are doing everything we can to deliver in a timely manner. Under normal conditions we ship within 2-4 days, and even now in these crazy times we are working hard to provide shipments within 1-3 weeks. (Other companies out there are 3-4 months)"
Also, I have several silver common 1 oz bullion bars & rounds at auction ending tonight, with all going for more than $33 per oz...(SilverTown bars going for $37+ per oz)
What's going on? >>
Very simple. Stores generally sell what they buy in over the counter.
Potential sellers who watched it run up to $30+ and were holding out for more won't sell at $28 because to do so would be to admit that they made a mistake by not selling at $30+.
Meanwhile, other people who kicked themselves for not buying before it got up to $30+ are taking advantage of the second chance.
So, supply is down, demand is up. That drives premiums up.
Was I penny wise and pound foolish to not by them all @ $30 ea.?
Edited to say that my intention would be to flip them, not necessarrily keep them.
<< <i>1 place I was at today had about 100-120 1 oz. generic silver rounds/bars. You know, the Happy Birthday/Merry Christmas/Morgan or Peace Dollar designs. He wanted $30/ea. I said if they were Engelhards or JM's I'd pay the premium, He said, they'll be gone by mid-week at the rate he's selling them for basically .80 over Spot. I asked if I bought them all could I get them for $29.50 ea.? He said no, he's getting $30 and not even trying hard to sell them. I said, more power to ya brother, but I'd just rather have the good ones for that premium.
Was I penny wise and pound foolish to not by them all @ $30 ea.?
Edited to say that my intention would be to flip them, not necessarrily keep them. >>
Only time will tell whether you guessed right, when the market opens Sunday night.
.
However, that said, what you were quoted was the market price today. You can't fault the guy for not treating you special and selling to you at last week's or last month's premiums. Don't live in the past.
TD
He said that six weeks earlier we had sold him ten ounce bars at spot plus $1.00 per ounce. I said yes we did, because just before that sale we had bought 200 of the bars in over the counter and wanted to reduce our inventory, but these three were all we had left, and the price was spot +$1.50.
The schmuck spent 20 minutes whining and complaining that we were not selling them to him at spot + $1.00. Finally he left, mewling and puking about how we were being unfair to him. Within a half hour somebody else came in and bought them, at + $1.50.
TD
Me personally, I dont trust the current run enough to commit alot. I wanted to buy $5k of 90% today and was only able to snag $85 FV. I guess the good thing is I still have cash to cost avg. down if it goes down.
We'll see what happens soon enough I guess.
Get to know them, be civil, pay cash (check is OK after you get to know them) and give them a note with your name and immediate contact phone number on it that says "CALL ME WHEN YOU BUY IN A DEAL OF (xxxx) THAT YOU WANT TO GET RID OF."
Then, when they call, be prepared to give a yes or no right away. If they know you they will be willing to wait a day or two for payment, so long as the price is locked in. Just don't ever renege on a deal.
TD
When you go into a shop, be ready to pay in cash or check. CC purchases result in the dealer getting raked for swipe fees and that reduces profit and when you're talking a deal worth a few K's than that is a substantial amount of money he loses for all you CC mavens. Remember to keep your receipt because most b&ms do "cash in-cash out". Don't dicker with the dealer, if he wants $1.50 premium and you want to carp about 50 cents and oz then you should be working some other type of hobby. These b&m guys have people walking in every day that want the world for their circ kennedy half collection or their dad's commem collection in the boxes from the mint...what can you say except they are worth what they are worth on the market, the fact that they were your dads has nothing to do with the price.
Different shops will want different premiums based on inventory, market conditions, other factors like maybe he's in a bad mood today and he doesn't feel like selling anything to some arrogant butt head and he wishes you would just leave. The b&ms get trails of people coming in every day that don't know much about what they are doing and are working off of something they heard or read and when the dealer tells him what he's got and what it goes for then they think they are being ripped off. Customers that walk in thinking they are going to pull the guy off of his number are living in Egypt, the land of de nile.
When you walk in and you are selling bullion, know current spot, know if you have something that demands a premium like a slabbed 70 from pcgs/ngc, know what you paid for it and what you want to get out of it. If the two of you don't agree then it's not particularly bad form to point out the attributes of your piece but if you hammer him with it, he's gonna let you walk. If you are just selling 90% or ase's or 1/10 eagles then you get spot and maybe a little premium but don't expect much more. If you are buying then you will pay a premium and the better relationship you have with the dealer, the more likely that the premium might be a little more favorable for you. If you dig around in the junk box, you can get 90% cheaper with almost no premium but if you want current ase's in the mint box w/coa, you're going to pay a nice premium, as you should. If you sell it back to him, you're not going to get much more than spot...that's just the way life is.
I love going to the b&m, watching the counter guys, working with the dealer. They like me there and call me by name when I come in and I call them by name. I know how it goes, they know how to do the deal, if I like the deal then I take it and if I don't then I don't with no hard feelings either way. When I'm selling, I know my numbers and what they are likely to offer and if it's pretty close then it's a deal and if it's not then it goes back in the box. They have their prices and I know they won't come off of them because what they offer to sell to me for is with any good client stroke already in the deal. They know I'm as likely to spend 5K's there as I am to just pick through their walker junk box and walk out with a $150 tab. They also know that I'm going to give them bens or a check and they always give me bens when I sell. If I have bullion then we all know what's going on. If I have numismatic material then it's a whole different deal and everybody has to stay loose and have an open mind. Bullion and numismatics are not the same kind of deal. My dealer told me straight up, don't come here to sell numismatics...you need to sell them on an auction site or better to sell them at a show. We have a good relationship, so to speak, and that is what it takes to have liquidity both ways in the coin buying/selling business. He treats me fairly, I accept his wisdom and pricing and if we do a deal then good and if we don't then there's next time and we'll see what happens then.
JMHO, trying to offer some experiences to those that are just checking in. Good luck.
<< <i>At a big annual show today, (probably) the biggest bullion dealer there was paying 19.65 face for 90%. >>
With melt at approx. 20.85 x face.
However, FWIW, I just looked over on my old dealer-to-dealer network, and there is a guy I know willing to sell a $1,000 bag of quarters for 20.425 x face, and he pays the shipping.
TD
<< <i>1 place I was at today had about 100-120 1 oz. generic silver rounds/bars. You know, the Happy Birthday/Merry Christmas/Morgan or Peace Dollar designs. He wanted $30/ea. I said if they were Engelhards or JM's I'd pay the premium, He said, they'll be gone by mid-week at the rate he's selling them for basically .80 over Spot. I asked if I bought them all could I get them for $29.50 ea.? He said no, he's getting $30 and not even trying hard to sell them. I said, more power to ya brother, but I'd just rather have the good ones for that premium.
Was I penny wise and pound foolish to not by them all @ $30 ea.?
Edited to say that my intention would be to flip them, not necessarrily keep them. >>
yeah if you want to flip them then you ave to have to have a basement price and stick to it.
if you were holding, then the logic of walking away because of $50 is, well, illogical.
<< <i>1 place I was at today had about 100-120 1 oz. generic silver rounds/bars. You know, the Happy Birthday/Merry Christmas/Morgan or Peace Dollar designs. He wanted $30/ea. I said if they were Engelhards or JM's I'd pay the premium, He said, they'll be gone by mid-week at the rate he's selling them for basically .80 over Spot. I asked if I bought them all could I get them for $29.50 ea.? He said no, he's getting $30 and not even trying hard to sell them. I said, more power to ya brother, but I'd just rather have the good ones for that premium.
Was I penny wise and pound foolish to not by them all @ $30 ea.?
Edited to say that my intention would be to flip them, not necessarrily keep them. >>
I guess I did not get this the other day, that you wanted to compete with the dealer by selling his products to his potential customers and cutting him out of 50 cents of the profit.
My bad.
Yeah, god forbid I try to make a buck laying out $5k at a time.
No need to, I have a car and internet use. I guess I have expenses too, gasoline driving around, wear & tear on my personal vehicle that cant be recouped if it breaks down like a business can recoup on their taxes if their "company" vehilce does (even though it's their personal vehicle). A monthly internet fee, and most importantly my time sorting it all out, taking pics and waiting in never ending lines shipping items at the P.O. Thanks for the tip though.
I clearly understand the point you're making Capt., but the dealers I buy from don't sell to the same customers as I do. That's the difference in the whole thing. So in fact I'm not cutting them out of any profit at all, because the customers I've established thru many years of doing this will never meet the dealers I buy from.
In fact, the dealers I buy from are almost always happy to sell to me (if they have what I want) to keep their money flow going and avoiding them from having to dip into savings to pay rent, payoff those showcases and registers, their Ins. premiums and utilities. touche.
When will dealers get it that they need a customer more than a customer needs them as long as the internet is around? Smart dealers utilize the internet, the dinosaurs that don't only have themself to blame for not doing so. I guess it's why those guys are always so bitter. It's like a haze when you walk into one of them. Carpeting that hasn't been changed, let alone vacuumed in decades, poor lighting because they dont want to turn on too many lights I guess (there's that utility issue again), oh and extremely narrow walkways because they cant sell anything because they dont utilize the internet.
We've all heard all the excuses why dealers have it so tough, and I agree to some point they do, but guess what, if they dont enjoy doing it anymore they should just get the hell out of the hobby and stop being such bitter old grumpy characters. Do it for their helath if nothing else.
People like me who buy to sell just to make a few bucks do it because I ENJOY doing it and it is what keeps this hobby going imo. There's times I lay out $2500 only to profit $75, but I dont care because I enjoy the hobby and unlike alot of B&M's, i'm not greedy. It keeps me out of trouble and I enjoy meeting and talking with most who I do business with.
I can also see how someone who's been on the other side of it can be so entrenched in their ways of thinking that they cant even comprehend what I've said.
None of this has been said to provoke anything either, it's simply my opinion. Please accept it as I do yours.
<< <i>........When will dealers get it that they need a customer more than a customer needs them......... >>
Maybe they do, but if you really felt that way then this tantrum for not getting what you wanted at the price you wanted to pay would not be necessary. You would have simply said thanks anyway, and moved on to the next dealer that needs you more than you need him.
<< <i>
<< <i>........When will dealers get it that they need a customer more than a customer needs them......... >>
Maybe they do, but if you really felt that way then this tantrum for not getting what you wanted at the price you wanted to pay would not be necessary. You would have simply said thanks anyway, and moved on to the next dealer that needs you more than you need him. >>
This statement says it all as well as the pattern of the OP's posts
In relation to the 2006,07, and 08 W silver eagles, the amount available is sufficient but the prices are skyrocketing.
<< <i>1 place I was at today had about 100-120 1 oz. generic silver rounds/bars.
Was I penny wise and pound foolish to not by them all @ $30 ea.? >>
<< <i>People like me who buy to sell just to make a few bucks do it because I ENJOY doing it >>
not even 2weeks later and silver is ~$31.50
Anyway, how funny this thread was replied to today because I was going to update it.
Went to 2 B&M's today. They want $21.50-21.80 for 90% (OUCH!) and $32.50-34.00 for .999. Didn't even ask about Au.
Picked up a cool 25 oz'er poured silver loaf, Tri-State Refining (anyone ever hear of them or see them kind?) and a couple 5 oz. silver loafs for the heck of it.
jim
What area are you in?
I see a little 90%, SAE & rounds every weakend.
I am in western Pa.
Thank You Papabear
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>I cant keep silver eagles in stock, they sell as fast as I can get them in, but nobody wants 90% or .999 generic 1 oz rounds. I have to ship it daily. I ship between 4-5k a day out of the store due to lack of buyers!! Yet I see comments on here about everybody cant keep it in? It must be this area?
jim >>
My local B&M does the same.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>yeah...it's always easy to say that 2 weeks later lol. gecko has a thread all about hindsight.
Anyway, how funny this thread was replied to today because I was going to update it.
Went to 2 B&M's today. They want $21.50-21.80 for 90% (OUCH!) and $32.50-34.00 for .999. Didn't even ask about Au.
Picked up a cool 25 oz'er poured silver loaf, Tri-State Refining (anyone ever hear of them or see them kind?) and a couple 5 oz. silver loafs for the heck of it. >>
What was spot when they asked you for 21.5 to 21.8 times face for 90% silver? That sounds cheap! As of late this afternoon the local big buyer here in Chicago was PAYING around 22.2x on solid bags.
$31.75 at the time. Keep in mind, I've done more 90% business with this dealer than anyone else he deals with over a 13 year period. He does give me best price because he knows I'll buy consistently, sometimes 4-5 times a week.
Now buying Au or Ag from him is a whole 'nother story lol. It's to the point where I wont buy from him for that because he's too high on that stuff.
<< <i>What was spot when they asked you for 21.5 to 21.8 times face for 90% silver? That sounds cheap! As of late this afternoon the local big buyer here in Chicago was PAYING around 22.2x on solid bags.
$31.75 at the time. Keep in mind, I've done more 90% business with this dealer than anyone else he deals with over a 13 year period. He does give me best price because he knows I'll buy consistently, sometimes 4-5 times a week.
Now buying Au or Ag from him is a whole 'nother story lol. It's to the point where I wont buy from him for that because he's too high on that stuff. >>
Thank you.
So at $31.75 silver 90% melted at approx. 22.7 x face.
I still say that 21.5 x to 21.8 x sounds cheap.
MOO
TD
paying 22.2 vs. wanting 21.50 ?
any arbitrage possible on this?!?!
Suddenly they will be depleted and not have anything for sale...because they have once again bought into a rally therefore raising their cost avg. on what they do have. Or am I being too cynical? I don't know, just seems like it happens every time.
Why do you consider calling reality for what it is to be "cynical"?
If I buy 100 oz today at $36 and it goes to $28 tomorrow, I'm not inclined to rush out and find a buyer either. That's simply not good investing.
I knew it would happen.
It's the bald faced being lied to I have a problem with when they say they don't have any when they're stumbling over it behind the counter.
If they don't want to sell it because of cost issues, then tell me that...maybe I'll make a better offer.
The most likely scenario would be they no one is selling to them and every one wants to buy , causing short supplies in a hurry.
When silver fell to 9 bucks in 2008, APMEX was offering spot plus $3 on ASE's and they still couldnt keep an inventory.
Big dealers make money on the spreads not on the price of silver.
Groucho Marx
I have a feeling that if Ag takes a dive, which I feel is incredibly overdue and imminent, B&M's will be offering up the same line as I stated they were saying in my original post.
Well with Ag down $1, this is a buying opportunity. Lets see what excuses I get today making the rounds.
People who stand as middlemen, such as B&M stores, find that a lot fewer people want to sell to them on a day like today, while a lot more people want to buy on a day like today. This results in a shortage of supply.
Did I mention its like deja vu all over again?????
I'm with piecesofme on this, it's the principle of the thing about being lied to, not that the fact that they have it and don't want to sell it.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>The problem with buying during a dip is finding somebody willing to sell at the new, lower price. See Gecko's thread about the seller who reneged on selling 400 ozs. to him, presumably because silver dove today.
People who stand as middlemen, such as B&M stores, find that a lot fewer people want to sell to them on a day like today, while a lot more people want to buy on a day like today. This results in a shortage of supply.
Did I mention its like deja vu all over again????? >>
can't you guys see that, it's so simple and basic!
<< <i><<Why do you consider calling reality for what it is to be "cynical"?>>
It's the bald faced being lied to I have a problem with when they say they don't have any when they're stumbling over it behind the counter.
If they don't want to sell it because of cost issues, then tell me that...maybe I'll make a better offer.
FWIW, when I was working we often had bags or bars on the floor or the backup table that had been sold but not yet picked up. Sometimes we were waiting for checks to clear, sometimes the buyers could only carry so much at one time. We had one guy that might buy 5 to 10 100 ounce bars at a time, but he could only carry two at a time. We just held the other for him.
Assuming you did indeed look ovr the counter and see the silver they were stumbling over, how do you know they own it?
.