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Pop 1 for sale
derryb
Posts: 36,375 ✭✭✭✭✭
Rampant currency debasement will be the most important investment trend of this decade, and it will devastate most people.
- Nick Giambruno Buy dollar insurance now, because the policy will cost more as the dollar becomes worth less.
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<< <i>That's asking alot of money. Are you trying to advertise on the wrong forum or are you trying to raise conversation? >>
As stated in the OP I'm discussing a Pop 1 coin being sold by a fellow forum member. Please direct me to the forum where we discuss other people's coins.
Rampant currency debasement will be the most important investment trend of this decade, and it will devastate most people.
- Nick Giambruno Buy dollar insurance now, because the policy will cost more as the dollar becomes worth less.
Way Way Way tooooooo Much .......Again IMHO
The price guide editor recently asked me for an opinion on what to price this coin at in the Price Guide (there is a "-" right now).
I believe I told him my opinion was $20,000, especially because when a board member had the pop 1 $5 99-W coin a number of years ago it was priced at $10,000. That coin later became pop 17, but is still roughly a $5,500 coin today (Price Guide shows $8,000 today but a coin is going unsold at $5,900 out there right now so that $8,000 level probably needs to be dropped a bit IMHO). Also, there is nothing wrong with prices rising in the price guide rather than dropping (i.e. this coin could certainly move up from the $20,000 range if it stayed pop 1 for a while). Another factor for the pricing of this coin IMHO is just how "solid" for the grade it is. A "lower end 70" might justify a $15,000 level while a "monster 70" might justify $25,000+. I can also see why the editor might be comfortable leaving the "-" for now while the coin is being marketed. Assuming Julian has had firm offers from respectable sources above $20,000 for the coin, that might also influence my opinion as to value.
All in all ... a very neat modern coin. Don't you just love it when these highly esteemed classic coin dealers market the ultra modern coins!! Warms the heart of us modern coin fans!!
Wondercoin
No one is obligated to agree with them, though.
<< <i>I realize that a seller has the right to ask whatever he wants for his merchandise. But pop 1 or not, shame on Julian. >>
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Just my eversohumble opinion.
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>I realize that a seller has the right to ask whatever he wants for his merchandise. But pop 1 or not, shame on Julian. >>
You brought me out, Mark, as I was not going to comment. However, when you shame me........
I honestly do not have any real way to evaluate this coin, but have been told that other Pop 1's in 70 gold eagles have brought 50k+. This is just going on hearsay, as I did not witness any of the sales.
This coin is the rarest of the entire Eagle series, and therefore I believe the most important. I just put a price on the coin, obviously with a Make an Offer. I have not received any acceptable offers. I am actually thinking of consigning it for auction sale.
The coin is almost 12 years old now & most of these have been encapsulated. This coin was encapsulated 8/10.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>
<< <i>I realize that a seller has the right to ask whatever he wants for his merchandise. But pop 1 or not, shame on Julian. >>
You brought me out, Mark, as I was not going to comment. However, when you shame me........
I honestly do not have any real way to evaluate this coin, but have been told that other Pop 1's in 70 gold eagles have brought 50k+. This is just going on hearsay, as I did not witness any of the sales.
This coin is the rarest of the entire Eagle series, and therefore I believe the most important. I just put a price on the coin, obviously with a Make an Offer. I have not received any acceptable offers. I am actually thinking of consigning it for auction sale.
The coin is almost 12 years old now & most of these have been encapsulated. This coin was encapsulated 8/10. >>
Julian, I probably would have sent you a link to the thread if you didn't make an appearance, anyway.
Public auction is likely an excellent way to determine fair market value and get rid of that bullion, while it is still near an all time high (unadjusted for inflation, of course).
I will implement that rule at this moment.
Everybody has a right to ask whatever they want to for their coins.
If it doesn't sell, it hurts no one except the seller.
IMHO
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
Actually, I believe a single proof gold eagle sold for about $37,000 a number of years ago in a "bidding war" best I can tell as I believe the coin was reserved around $12,000 or so (now worth about $4,500 today). I am not aware of any gold eagle pop 1 coins (or otherwise) that sold for more than that amount.
"Rumor has it" that the pop 1 1995-W SILVER Eagle sold for more than $50k the last time it changed hands. But, the coin is now pop 2 and in the Price Guide around $30,000 as I recall.
Good luck Julian with the sale!
Wondercoin
<< <i>Everybody has a right to ask whatever they want to for their coins.
If it doesn't sell, it hurts no one except the seller.
IMHO
~ >>
That's exactly the point, which is why I was astonished to see this thread.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Wondercoin
<< <i>
<< <i>Everybody has a right to ask whatever they want to for their coins.
If it doesn't sell, it hurts no one except the seller.
IMHO
~ >>
That's exactly the point, which is why I was astonished to see this thread. >>
Purpose of the post was the coin, not the price. My apologies to Julian for any problem I created in discussing his coin. That was not my intention.
Rampant currency debasement will be the most important investment trend of this decade, and it will devastate most people.
- Nick Giambruno Buy dollar insurance now, because the policy will cost more as the dollar becomes worth less.
So why not list a coin for moon money?
He does have a 'make an offer' option.
I do agree however, that these modern 'ms70' coins are not the best investment around (and that's saying it nicely).
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>I believe at the present time, there is no Ebay fee for listing a coin.
So why not list a coin for moon money?
He does have a 'make an offer' option.
I do agree however, that these modern 'ms70' coins are not the best investment around (and that's saying it nicely). >>
Sure, and if a buyer offers 80% of the listed price and the seller accepts it, all is good right? Maybe not.
Edited to add: To be fair, anyone who cares to say the same (or worse) about any coin I ever offer for sale is free to do so.
<< <i>I believe at the present time, there is no Ebay fee for listing a coin.
So why not list a coin for moon money?
He does have a 'make an offer' option.
I do agree however, that these modern 'ms70' coins are not the best investment around (and that's saying it nicely). >>
Had TPGs been around at the turn of the century, what do you think a bullion 1908 S Saint in MS70 would be worth today?
Rampant currency debasement will be the most important investment trend of this decade, and it will devastate most people.
- Nick Giambruno Buy dollar insurance now, because the policy will cost more as the dollar becomes worth less.
<< <i>MisterBungle - Forget about this coin for a moment. Generally speaking, in some cases though, might an entirely uneducated (new to the hobby) buyer simply assume (obviously to his detriment) that a knowledgeable and respected seller is asking a "fair" price for a coin when an asking price is listed? This is sort of the explanation I am getting as to why "hidden reserves" might become a thing of the past for most numismatic major auction houses (of course Heritage did away with them a number of years ago already).
Wondercoin >>
It is VERY unlikely that that 'coin' will sell for anywhere near the suggested price (or even 20% of it). Nonetheless, I did find that ebay listing rather interesting. There are aspects of the coin business that I evidently still do not understand.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>I have a pop 1 pattern I have been trying to help someone price. Pop one coins are tough. The one in this thread means nothing to me, just a modern. >>
Okay, forgetting about this coin for a moment. There are dealers
(and collectors) all over, who overprice their coins. Even low end
coins from someone like Littleton are overpriced in my opinion.
But as long as the condition of the coin is accurately described,
the seller has the right to charge whatever the market will pay.
I don't see why someone would pay hundreds, and maybe
thousands, for an 1881-S Morgan dollar in MS64 just because
it has some color to it, when a white one would be sixty bucks,
but it happens, and I don't fault the seller.
But back to Julian's coin. If you're going to pay tens of
thousands of dollars for a coin, you're going to have some
idea of it worth to you. We're not talking about some guy
who's never owned a coin being a buyer for this one.
If the coin doesn't sell, it hurts no one. If it does sell then
someone else thinks the coin is worth that much money.
It's all about free market.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
Lucanus
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Opulence: I Has It
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
So now there is one MS70? Will that never change? How will its eventual buyer feel, once that happens?
FWIW, another MS69 sold for $1436 three weeks ago (eBay #250751443068)
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Modern bashers love to ruminate about how wonderful their own coins are, in spite of the fact that 100 years ago those very coins were Moderns. >>
Indeed, they were. But they weren't selling at premiums which even begin to approach those which many "modern bashers" take issue with. Likewise, for the same reasonso many of the "modern bashers" are critical of some of the color premiums that classic coins bring.
All true enough. However, the coin hasn't sold yet, so the premium has yet to be established. And, I venture to say that someone such as myself could go all day long making disparaging and unseemly comments about what many "classic" coin collectors pay premiums in order to own, but I don't.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>Indeed, they were. But they weren't selling at premiums which even begin to approach those which many "modern bashers" take issue with. Likewise, for the same reasonso many of the "modern bashers" are critical of some of the color premiums that classic coins bring.
All true enough. However, the coin hasn't sold yet, so the premium has yet to be established. And, I venture to say that someone such as myself could go all day long making disparaging and unseemly comments about what many "classic" coin collectors pay premiums in order to own, but I don't. >>
Fair enough. While I won't speak for others, my own comments about the listing weren't based on it being a modern coin. I would have said the same about a low pop classic coin. Still, your way is admittedly more polite than mine.
<< <i>Modern bashers love to ruminate about how wonderful their own coins are, in spite of the fact that 100 years ago those very coins were Moderns. >>
100 years ago, coins in collections were stored in open trays ('coin cabinets'), paper envelopes, or cloth pouches, and were subject to much more handling than is typical today.
Due to modern mint-making procedures and equipment, coins are exiting the U. S. mints more sharply struck and with far fewer marks (on average). Who wants moderns graded
MS/PR 65-66?
One hundred years from now, today's moderns will be far more available in superb+ grades than coins made in 1910 can be found in MS65-66 today.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
Well, yes and no. For example, there are 60,000 MS65 and better graded 1881-S Morgans graded at PCGS alone right now. There are roughly a scant (5,100) 2008-W $10 Proof Platinum Eagles in the universe in ANY grade. Even if close to half of these are perfect "70" grade, that means they are still 20x scarcer than that gem morgan (and about as scarce of an MS67 specimen). Yet, they sell for a fraction of the price. Just one of myriad examples of low mintage moderns that have an amazing future ahead of them. For an in depth review of many of the great (future) moderns, just pick up a copy of Eric Jordan's book from last year.
Wondercoin
<< <i> One hundred years from now, today's moderns will be far more available in superb+ grades than coins made in 1910 can be found in MS65-66 today. >>
Just the fact that "coins of today" are not used like "coins of yesterday" makes your statement true, in 1910 how many credit card transaction were completed on a dailly average?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I realize that a seller has the right to ask whatever he wants for his merchandise. But pop 1 or not, shame on Julian. >>
Julian, I probably would have sent you a link to the thread if you didn't make an appearance, anyway.
Public auction is likely an excellent way to determine fair market value and get rid of that bullion, while it is still near an all time high (unadjusted for inflation, of course).
HUH?
BST Transactions: DonnyJf, MrOrganic, Justanothercoinaddict, Fivecents, Slq, Jdimmick,
Robb, Tee135, Ibzman350, Mercfan, Outhaul, Erickso1, Cugamongacoins, Indiananationals, Wayne Herndon
Negative BST Transactions:
Except for flipping-coins' ICG 70 these are ALL Julian's
<< <i>what's the world coming to when one respected dealer bashes another on a public forum like this?? >>
how drab and lonely the threads would be if we were courteous and well mannered all the time!!
The demand difference between a gem Morgan and proof $10 plat is probably many multiples of 20x. While Morgans are a bread and butter collectible owned by a fairly large percentage of all collectors, the platinum coin is still more on the fringe. I could offer up a comparison to classic half dollar commems from 1918-1954. Individual Texas, Oregon, Boone, Arkansas, Columbia, BTW's, and GWC's commems have mintages under 10,000 each. They are all "rarities" whose price basically peaked in 1989. I won't disagree that the potential is there for the proof $10 plats even if they could be forever restrained by "smallcoinitis." Certainly then the potential for 10,000 mintage classic commems is still "great" as well even if they've been a major disappointment for the past 20 yrs. (other than the <1% that qualify as top pops or monster toners). If there were 10,000 classic commem collectors building gem sets then they would be under great demand. Obviously there aren't anywhere near close to 10,000 gem set collectors for classic commems. Conjuring up 5,000 collectors for a $10 plat set could be equally as difficult. By using that same logic the lower mintage proof gold eagles (1/4 to 1 oz) with mintages generally under 10,000 should become great collectibles as well. But there is probably a better chance they will just become a hunk of precious metal as the price of gold continues to mulitply.
There are already too many mint made rarities for most collectors to ever be able to assemble. And with each passing year that task grows ever greater as the mint continues to pump out every new design imagineable. The mint has wised up and realizes that making 10 designs at 30,000 copies each is far more lucrative than a single one at 300,000. The latter may never sell out while the former are all instant rarities. I'm going to wait for the 10 coin set of the largest U.S. fast food franchises. After all they are a major part of American Culture getting far more visistors per year than any state park. I have many happy memories from visiting each of them. And you could probably get those franchises to underwrite the mint's startup costs.
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>Modern bashers love to ruminate about how wonderful their own coins are, in spite of the fact that 100 years ago those very coins were Moderns. >>
Indeed, they were. But they weren't selling at premiums which even begin to approach those which many "modern bashers" take issue with. Likewise, for the same reasonso many of the "modern bashers" are critical of some of the color premiums that classic coins bring. >>
Indeed they weren't. But neigher were 100 yr old coins either. So classic dealers should be ashamed for the prices they are asking now compared to 100 years ago.
1. I could have just as easily used the 2008-W $25 Mint State Platinum with a mintage of less than 3,000 as my example and we would have no "smallness" issue to talk about. And, we might just find 3,000 people that care in the next 25 years (as opposed to the 5,000 figure that concerns you)!
2. Are there really 3,000 serious collectors out there for the MS67 1881-S Morgan in my comparison either after all these years (PCGS and NGC coins combined)? Honestly, how many serious Morgan dollar collectors exist today that want to pay the price for an 1881-S MS67 Morgan?
3. Your argument concerning all the super low mintage modern coins of the past few years (i.e. too many rarities already with more to come) ... couldn't you have made the same argument in 1936 and cautioned us against buying the proof set coming out that year with the mintage the Mint announced? For that matter, think of all of the low mintage proof coins coming out of the mint during all of the Barber years (and earlier). Your caution would have been just as appropriate for many of those coins back then as it is now with these great low mintage moderns - no?
Wondercoin
<< <i>what's the world coming to when one respected dealer bashes another on a public forum like this?? >>
I consider Mark a friend and do not take his comments as bashing.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>If that POP-1 is worth $99,995, what is this POP-1 worth? This 1838-D half eagle is tied with another MS-63 as the highest graded pieces for that issue. I own this coin, and I can tell you that I paid a good deal less than that asking price.
By definition, Bill, your coin is actually Pop 2 if it is tied with another. Your coin is almost certainly rarer than the subject coin, but it is not the "ultimate" grade. It is highly unlikely that the ultimate grade will ever turn up for the 38-d, but there is a possibility that a higher grade coin may be encapsulated.
I don't think that there are as many collectors trying to complete a classic half eagle set in this grade, but there are many that are working on the modern gold eagle collections. It is all about supply and demand.
Yours is certainly a time tested classic. The subject coin is not.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
<< <i>
<< <i>what's the world coming to when one respected dealer bashes another on a public forum like this?? >>
I consider Mark a friend and do not take his comments as bashing. >>
Thank you, Julian, I am glad to hear that. And had you considered it bashing, I would have gladly apologized.