First of all, I am under the impression that Canadians still have the provincial taxes and/or VAT taxes to contend with so the Canadian comeback is still not yet complete, but they are gaining on us.
Sid Belzberg did spend a lot of time in the USA when acquiring and selling the Canadian coins. He is a great guy. Quite frankly, I was shocked when he sold his Canadian collection as well and I was not financially prepared to buy the better pieces.
My favorite Canadian dealer and auctioneer Michael Walsh is sort of retired and is no longer active as he has been on his sailboat and doing wines instead of Canadian coins. I thought he was the strongest of the Canadian auctioneers.
Heritage has been gaining strength in a sort of a counter-reverse evolution to all the above in which an American auctioneer has been more effective than all foreign auctioneers in auctioning USA and foreign coins. I guess that is partially because of their unique strength in their web site on the internet and foreign bidders seem to be more comfortable with that despite the currency conversion, shipping, and customs issues? This makes it appear that based on the strength of a single American auctioneer that the American auction industry is more world-wide dominant than ever. I do not know if this is so.
<< <i>"Add all this up, and CLEARLY proves how rare coins are. It also clearly proves how UNDER valued great quality is. As collectors start to realize they are not seeing great coins they know they MUST pay more. Its been proven recent auction after auction (forget about using other rags for printed information-auctions are reality) how the “best” quality coins perform. That’s why we keep telling you not to let an incredible coin go because of an extra 10-40% cost. When you buy a great coin, you should be doing so with a long term objective. That’s when you will see the staggering returns like a Pittman earned or a Norweb got. Its all about demand and time. These days so few cool coins are for sale-do NOT miss opportunity!"
Rarity does not necessarily equate with something being undervalued. The people with the deepest pockets are simply buying the finest examples of what they like because they have the money to do it. Price / cost does not matter to many of these people. This is the case with all kinds of collectibles, and has been going on for generations.
While these people set the standard for the pricing of rarities like the 1804 Dollar of 1913 Nickel, they are irrelevant to 99% of the rest of us, who are the "unwashed masses" of numismatics. Ie., an individual paying 4X sheet for a CC Morgan in PC 5 DMPL has nothing to do with the price of a nice MS 65 Barber Half.
The "I want it because I have a blank check to pay for it" mentality is irrelevant to 99% of us in the hobby. Practically speaking, price does matter to me and I don't collect certain coins because of it. >>
I'll add to that, let's not lose our heads, here. Dragon's experiences in the DMPL Carson City dollars market are certainly worth taking note of. But, seriously, just as an example, do you sincerely believe that, had these coins been offered in that market, they'd have transacted at the prices we're being informed these big chumps with nothing but big money to burn got jerked-off by their big brokers to pay for them? Get real. What an idiot with nothing but money to burn pays for something is hardly the fair market value of that thing. I'd like to see just one of these coins submitted to PCGS for a grade without the big-shot pedigree behind it and then offered in a Heritage auction to a knowledge-base of experienced collectors. I sincerely doubt that a single one of these would transact at the price these nitwits were talked into paying for it.
Yap, yap, yap. See Olsen 1913 Lib nickel. Sold privately by myself thru legend and blanchard and then offered a few years later in heritage. Just the situation you yearned for...
<< <i>The "I want it because I have a blank check to pay for it" mentality is irrelevant to 99% of us in the hobby. >>
That is taking Laura's comment which was <<<<The people with the deepest pockets are simply buying the finest examples of what they like because they have the money to do it. Price / cost does not matter to many of these people. This is the case with all kinds of collectibles, and has been going on for generations.>>>> completely out of context .
No what Laura was saying was the opposite. Those with the deepest pockets will not let money stand in the way of buying the finest examples of what they like. It is FIRST deciding what they LIKE and then just BUYING it. Perhaps a little hankering here and there but that might be all. Others will negotiate even harder. Still others have coins to trade that have appreciated fantastically and need to work out a like kind exchange. The buyer with the deepest pockets just MIGHT ALSO be someone from a foreign country such as Australia which currency has recently (the last 10 years) appreciated 100% against the US dollar so that EVERYTHING IS 50% DISCOUNTED TO SUCH BUYER right now!!
Of course, there are other deep pocket buyers who have tried buying coins based on the greysheet prices time and time again and failing to do so creating great frustration. Sometimes the buyer out of frustration buys the ONE FINEST coin he wants and is finally determined NOT to LOSE AGAIN. SOMETIMES IT IS THE COIN THEY HAVE WAITED 15 YEARS FOR.
Yes, there is egos involved as well at times.
But you CANNOT GENERALIZE WITH BROAD BRUSH STROKES AND state that ones with the deepest pockets buy certain coins they like BECAUSE they have the money to buy them.
Oreville - I'll just have to agree to disagree with you on your last post. People do some things in life "because they can" do them. This explains why some -- but not all -- of the most well to do buy the most expensive collectibles.
The only thing on which I concur re said post is that egos are often involved. A major reason why some particular coin brings what appears to be a shocking amount of money is because two guys with deep pockets get into a "pi**ing context" over said coin. I'll let you make the call re how much of this is a desire to own said coin, and how much of it is ego. I imagine it varies on the particular sets of facts and circumstances.
My point is, if King Farouk's son or TDN pay $4,000,000 for a 1913 Liberty Nickel, it doesn't affect anyone outside of an elite handful of people.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i> My point is, if King Farouk's son or TDN pay $4,000,000 for a 1913 Liberty Nickel, it doesn't affect anyone outside of an elite handful of people. >>
You can't make that broad statement. If the media reports that King Farouk's son or TDN pays $4,000,000 for a 1913 Liberty Nickel many things can happen affecting MOST collectors of the hobby. That is not saying that it WILL happen but that it could.
Example:
Media reports that 1913 Liberty nickel sells for a lot of money. All of a sudden it is possible that the general public gets excited and buys a silver dollar or two on TV. Demand crushes the supply of silver dollars causing wholesale prices of even the cheapest circulated silver or even silver american eagles to rise by 5%.
Result, most collectors see the values of their circulated silver dollar go up by 5%.
Collectors selling their silver dollars are thrilled at the upcoming Long Beach show for instance. They are affected. Those collectors WITHOUT a single silver dollar or who want to buy one or more for their set are PISSED!. They are equally affected but in the opposite direction.
Next example: Media reports that 1913 Liberty nickel sells for a HUGE LOSS to the seller. The media plays on this and all of a sudden coin collecting becomes an ugly step sister to everything else! The average coin collector owning his coins may be hurt by DECREASED demands for his coins. The average coin collector may be THRILLED because he can now ADD more coins to his collection at a bargain. He may be thrilled but all his friends are DEPRESSED abut the coin hobby so our friend here may decide NOT TO BUY EVEN AT A BARGAIN PRICED MARKET!
My additional comment:
What is it with all these over-generalizations? There are so many factors that affect the average coin collectors, good and bad. What the rich do affect the average coin collector just as much as what the coin collector with a $120 a year budget does!
<< <i>Oreville - I'll just have to agree to disagree with you on your last post. People do some things in life "because they can" do them. This explains why some -- but not all -- of the most well to do buy the most expensive collectibles.
The only thing on which I concur re said post is that egos are often involved. A major reason why some particular coin brings what appears to be a shocking amount of money is because two guys with deep pockets get into a "pi**ing context" over said coin. I'll let you make the call re how much of this is a desire to own said coin, and how much of it is ego. I imagine it varies on the particular sets of facts and circumstances.
My point is, if King Farouk's son or TDN pay $4,000,000 for a 1913 Liberty Nickel, it doesn't affect anyone outside of an elite handful of people. >>
The same sort of argument applies to those who collect MS70/PF70 coins or top pop moderns more generally.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
<< <i>Coolness is in the eye of the beholder (and is not directly proportional to the depth of the pocketbook.)
Legend wrote: Yes, Legend happens to exclusively deal with 3 of them. We unhesitatingly would say that between our good friend from Ft Worth, TX, and the family down the road in Dallas (who own 2 1804 $1 and the unquestioned greatest BUST collections ever), COMBINED their collections are worth a startling $500,000,000.00!
Does Legend sign exclusivity contracts with these buyers? If so, what's in it for the buyers? If not, how does Legend know these buyers do not shop elsewhere, as well? >>
so much easier to snag a healthy percentage off rich people who dont know exactly what the frig they're buying and are just looking to invest, I would suspect. Im sure the high end market is extremely lucrative for the dealer with the most-silver tongue.
<< <i>Coolness is in the eye of the beholder (and is not directly proportional to the depth of the pocketbook.)
Legend wrote: Yes, Legend happens to exclusively deal with 3 of them. We unhesitatingly would say that between our good friend from Ft Worth, TX, and the family down the road in Dallas (who own 2 1804 $1 and the unquestioned greatest BUST collections ever), COMBINED their collections are worth a startling $500,000,000.00!
Does Legend sign exclusivity contracts with these buyers? If so, what's in it for the buyers? If not, how does Legend know these buyers do not shop elsewhere, as well? >>
so much easier to snag a healthy percentage off rich people who dont know exactly what the frig they're buying and are just looking to invest, I would suspect. Im sure the high end market is extremely lucrative for the dealer with the most-silver tongue. >>
Except that THOSE rich people DO know exactly what they are buying.
Member: EAC, NBS, C4, CWTS, ANA
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
I think many people take many things including coins way to seriously. On your deathbed will they be the only thoughts you have or your last breath, will it be about the coins you own? Does knowing that you are a mere caretaker for a short time of all your coins bother you? Have you seen a Brinks truck following a hearse? Relax will ya and keep this stuff in perspective. There are people in the world that do not even have clean water or a place to sleep....
<< <i>Yap, yap, yap. See Olsen 1913 Lib nickel. Sold privately by myself thru legend and blanchard and then offered a few years later in heritage. Just the situation you yearned for... >>
Relax. The real chumps in this theater are those innocent collectors who read about these transactions from people like your broker and as she advises don’t think twice about shelling out premiums over fair market value for the coins they like simply because they’re thoroughly convinced they must emulate the buying habits of an elite crowd of collectors who consider money no object when they go to buy the coins they like. I should have made that clear, before; sorry...
Those with the deepest pockets will not let money stand in the way of buying the finest examples of what they like. It is FIRST deciding what they LIKE and then just BUYING it. Perhaps a little hankering here and there but that might be all. Others will negotiate even harder
My admittedly limited experience with billionaires is they are less inclined to overpay X% for a fabulous seven figure coin than J6P is willing to overpay X% for a fabulous four figure coin.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> The real chumps in this theater are those innocent collectors who read about these transactions from people like your broker and as she advises don’t think twice about shelling out premiums over fair market value for the coins they like simply because they’re thoroughly convinced they must emulate the buying habits of an elite crowd of collectors who consider money no object when they go to buy the coins they like. I should have made that clear, before; sorry... >>
The top dealers scarf up all of the good stuff at the auctions and from other dealers during dealer set up at shows, and then they mark it up to painful premium prices, leaving the coin junkies with the choice of paying more than might make sense or passing on the nice coins and paying less for lesser quality elsewhere. The only alternative is to fly around the country from auction to auction and try to buy at one bid increment above the dealers. Of course once you add in travel, lodging, time, and the ensuing divorce, that might not be such a deal either.
<< <i>Yap, yap, yap. See Olsen 1913 Lib nickel. Sold privately by myself thru legend and blanchard and then offered a few years later in heritage. Just the situation you yearned for... >>
Relax. The real chumps in this theater are those innocent collectors who read about these transactions from people like your broker and as she advises don’t think twice about shelling out premiums over fair market value for the coins they like simply because they’re thoroughly convinced they must emulate the buying habits of an elite crowd of collectors who consider money no object when they go to buy the coins they like. I should have made that clear, before; sorry... >>
Point being that great coins for the grade are generally not available except at a premium. And certainly not for Greysheet in the areas that I collect. At least not the last time that I checked Greysheet.
<< <i>Those with the deepest pockets will not let money stand in the way of buying the finest examples of what they like. It is FIRST deciding what they LIKE and then just BUYING it. Perhaps a little hankering here and there but that might be all. Others will negotiate even harder My admittedly limited experience with billionaires is they are less inclined to overpay X% for a fabulous seven figure coin than J6P is willing to overpay X% for a fabulous four figure coin. >>
Some do, some don't. But they ALL gripe and moan about it! LOL
Lets be totally ridiclous. You won the lottery. After buying everything else you want, you wouldn't turn to your beloved hobby of coins and do what it takes to buy your dream coins?
Are you then not a collector but a stupid person with too money? In the end, you are just a collector with the means to buy your dream coins.
Don't be afraid to pay 10 to 40% more for a cool coin when you see it.
Don't be afraid to pay 10 to 40% more for THE RIGHT cool coin when you see it. Most of us would agree that that's good advice. The trick, of course, is knowing the right coin when you see it.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> Don't be afraid to pay 10 to 40% more for THE RIGHT cool coin when you see it. Most of us would agree that that's good advice. The trick, of course, is knowing the right coin when you see it. >>
What Andy says might be the right thinking in the upper strata, but the reality is more along what I posted above. Dealers scarf up the cream of the popular coins that are not going to make the cover of the catalog and are not the objects of desire for the big boys from Texas. These popular coins are then offered to the less well heeled collectors at substantial premiums. Even if paying a premium for coins that are obviously not the “right” coins is a bad deal, the alternative deal is to buy nothing or lesser quality. As one board member said some time ago, once someone shows you the nice stuff, the rest looks like a bunch of rusty washers.
Dealers scarf up the cream of the popular coins that are not going to make the cover of the catalog and are not the objects of desire for the big boys from Texas. These popular coins are then offered to the less well heeled collectors at substantial premiums.
Is that what they call "retail"?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Dealers scarf up the cream of the popular coins that are not going to make the cover of the catalog and are not the objects of desire for the big boys from Texas. These popular coins are then offered to the less well heeled collectors at substantial premiums. >>
There's nothing stopping collectors from outbidding dealers for these coins, is there? I mean- aside from having to devote time and money to the effort, right?
What is it with all these over-generalizations? There are so many factors that affect the average coin collectors, good and bad. What the rich do affect the average coin collector just as much as what the coin collector with a $120 a year budget does! >>
You question over-generalizations and then offer one of your own?
I would say the vast majority of the areas that the "average" coin collector dabbles in have seen substantial to moderate price declines in the last couple of years. The fact that some rich people in Japan have decided to pay up to horde proof gold apparently hasn't done much to sustain the overall US coin market.
Speaking strictly for myself, I could care less what the whale collectors are doing at any given moment. I'm looking at the overall market and specific coins when making my buy/sell decisions.
The best way to be is to have a wide taste for collectibles.....develope an appetite for whatever is available and affordable. Don't begrudge the rich guy his caviar, unless you want to go through life as a miserable person. And if you can afford corn bread and beans, give thanks.
There is always going to be someone who has more money than you and there is always going to be someone with less money than you have.
We should all be thankful that we have enough money that we can set anything aside. At least we are not picking through the garbage at some dump looking for a half eaten grapefruit.
Point being that great coins for the grade are generally not available except at a premium. And certainly not for Greysheet in the areas that I collect. At least not the last time that I checked Greysheet. >>
Pick one. My point is you don't judge a thing's fair market value on what that thing may have happened to have sold for in a privately-brokered off-market transaction.
I have been reading Laura Sperber's complaints of the dire lack of quality coins in the market for over 15 years; nothing new there.
Yet somehow, new collections continue to be formed and her firm is still in business.
The coin market is cyclical like all markets. When prices are low, many people hold on to their best coins. When prices are high, rarities somehow come out of the woodwork.
It is no coincidence that Walter Husak sold his entire large cent collection in 2008, at the top of the market.
<< <i>Do many of us on this Forum really want to put 400,000 dollars all on one coin. What if it drops on the floor, or rolls under the icebox? I hear that the Japanese are paying for their coins in rice. Laura is now making a two way market with 18,000 tons of rice. Make a bid,.....anyone? >>
Excellent advice as usual Bear...I've even heard of a board member who recently lost a coin in his recliner.
<< <i>You question over-generalizations and then offer one of your own? >>
My response: I do not recall making any generalizations.
You then stated:
<< <i> I would say the vast majority of the areas that the "average" coin collector dabbles in have seen substantial to moderate price declines in the last couple of years. The fact that some rich people in Japan have decided to pay up to horde proof gold apparently hasn't done much to sustain the overall US coin market. >>
My response: I am not sure what your point is? Many areas of the overall US coin market has done quite well indeed. But you can't pick one single causal factor such as the Japanese buying lots of US proof gold coins (at cheap prices to them because of the very strong Yen) and then attack it because it did not prop the entire market.
You then stated:
<< <i> Speaking strictly for myself, I could care less what the whale collectors are doing at any given moment. I'm looking at the overall market and specific coins when making my buy/sell decisions. >>
My response: This should not be about what we care about and what we could care less about. This is NOT about our personal likes and dislikes and our personal preferences. Just trying to get into the root cause and effect as much as possible which is not easy to determine.
Comments
First of all, I am under the impression that Canadians still have the provincial taxes and/or VAT taxes to contend with so the Canadian comeback is still not yet complete, but they are gaining on us.
Sid Belzberg did spend a lot of time in the USA when acquiring and selling the Canadian coins. He is a great guy. Quite frankly, I was shocked when he sold his Canadian collection as well and I was not financially prepared to buy the better pieces.
My favorite Canadian dealer and auctioneer Michael Walsh is sort of retired and is no longer active as he has been on his sailboat and doing wines instead of Canadian coins. I thought he was the strongest of the Canadian auctioneers.
Heritage has been gaining strength in a sort of a counter-reverse evolution to all the above in which an American auctioneer has been more effective than all foreign auctioneers in auctioning USA and foreign coins. I guess that is partially because of their unique strength in their web site on the internet and foreign bidders seem to be more comfortable with that despite the currency conversion, shipping, and customs issues? This makes it appear that based on the strength of a single American auctioneer that the American auction industry is more world-wide dominant than ever. I do not know if this is so.
<< <i>Since 'they' don't buy coins valued at <$100,000 I guess I don't have to worry about competing with them! >>
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>All I can afford is Cool Dreck!!!
Cool Dreck (TM)
<< <i>"Add all this up, and CLEARLY proves how rare coins are. It also clearly proves how UNDER valued great quality is. As collectors start to realize they are not seeing great coins they know they MUST pay more. Its been proven recent auction after auction (forget about using other rags for printed information-auctions are reality) how the “best” quality coins perform. That’s why we keep telling you not to let an incredible coin go because of an extra 10-40% cost. When you buy a great coin, you should be doing so with a long term objective. That’s when you will see the staggering returns like a Pittman earned or a Norweb got. Its all about demand and time. These days so few cool coins are for sale-do NOT miss opportunity!"
Rarity does not necessarily equate with something being undervalued. The people with the deepest pockets are simply buying the finest examples of what they like because they have the money to do it. Price / cost does not matter to many of these people. This is the case with all kinds of collectibles, and has been going on for generations.
While these people set the standard for the pricing of rarities like the 1804 Dollar of 1913 Nickel, they are irrelevant to 99% of the rest of us, who are the "unwashed masses" of numismatics. Ie., an individual paying 4X sheet for a CC Morgan in PC 5 DMPL has nothing to do with the price of a nice MS 65 Barber Half.
The "I want it because I have a blank check to pay for it" mentality is irrelevant to 99% of us in the hobby. Practically speaking, price does matter to me and I don't collect certain coins because of it. >>
I'll add to that, let's not lose our heads, here. Dragon's experiences in the DMPL Carson City dollars market are certainly worth taking note of. But, seriously, just as an example, do you sincerely believe that, had these coins been offered in that market, they'd have transacted at the prices we're being informed these big chumps with nothing but big money to burn got jerked-off by their big brokers to pay for them? Get real. What an idiot with nothing but money to burn pays for something is hardly the fair market value of that thing. I'd like to see just one of these coins submitted to PCGS for a grade without the big-shot pedigree behind it and then offered in a Heritage auction to a knowledge-base of experienced collectors. I sincerely doubt that a single one of these would transact at the price these nitwits were talked into paying for it.
<< <i>The "I want it because I have a blank check to pay for it" mentality is irrelevant to 99% of us in the hobby. >>
That is taking Laura's comment which was <<<<The people with the deepest pockets are simply buying the finest examples of what they like because they have the money to do it. Price / cost does not matter to many of these people. This is the case with all kinds of collectibles, and has been going on for generations.>>>> completely out of context .
No what Laura was saying was the opposite. Those with the deepest pockets will not let money stand in the way of buying the finest examples of what they like. It is FIRST deciding what they LIKE and then just BUYING it. Perhaps a little hankering here and there but that might be all. Others will negotiate even harder. Still others have coins to trade that have appreciated fantastically and need to work out a like kind exchange. The buyer with the deepest pockets just MIGHT ALSO be someone from a foreign country such as Australia which currency has recently (the last 10 years) appreciated 100% against the US dollar so that EVERYTHING IS 50% DISCOUNTED TO SUCH BUYER right now!!
Of course, there are other deep pocket buyers who have tried buying coins based on the greysheet prices time and time again and failing to do so creating great frustration. Sometimes the buyer out of frustration buys the ONE FINEST coin he wants and is finally determined NOT to LOSE AGAIN. SOMETIMES IT IS THE COIN THEY HAVE WAITED 15 YEARS FOR.
Yes, there is egos involved as well at times.
But you CANNOT GENERALIZE WITH BROAD BRUSH STROKES AND state that ones with the deepest pockets buy certain coins they like BECAUSE they have the money to buy them.
The only thing on which I concur re said post is that egos are often involved. A major reason why some particular coin brings what appears to be a shocking amount of money is because two guys with deep pockets get into a "pi**ing context" over said coin. I'll let you make the call re how much of this is a desire to own said coin, and how much of it is ego. I imagine it varies on the particular sets of facts and circumstances.
My point is, if King Farouk's son or TDN pay $4,000,000 for a 1913 Liberty Nickel, it doesn't affect anyone outside of an elite handful of people.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
You stated:
<< <i> My point is, if King Farouk's son or TDN pay $4,000,000 for a 1913 Liberty Nickel, it doesn't affect anyone outside of an elite handful of people. >>
You can't make that broad statement. If the media reports that King Farouk's son or TDN pays $4,000,000 for a 1913 Liberty Nickel many things can happen affecting MOST collectors of the hobby. That is not saying that it WILL happen but that it could.
Example:
Media reports that 1913 Liberty nickel sells for a lot of money. All of a sudden it is possible that the general public gets excited and buys a silver dollar or two on TV. Demand crushes the supply of silver dollars causing wholesale prices of even the cheapest circulated silver or even silver american eagles to rise by 5%.
Result, most collectors see the values of their circulated silver dollar go up by 5%.
Collectors selling their silver dollars are thrilled at the upcoming Long Beach show for instance. They are affected. Those collectors WITHOUT a single silver dollar or who want to buy one or more for their set are PISSED!. They are equally affected but in the opposite direction.
Next example: Media reports that 1913 Liberty nickel sells for a HUGE LOSS to the seller. The media plays on this and all of a sudden coin collecting becomes an ugly step sister to everything else! The average coin collector owning his coins may be hurt by DECREASED demands for his coins. The average coin collector may be THRILLED because he can now ADD more coins to his collection at a bargain. He may be thrilled but all his friends are DEPRESSED abut the coin hobby so our friend here may decide NOT TO BUY EVEN AT A BARGAIN PRICED MARKET!
My additional comment:
What is it with all these over-generalizations? There are so many factors that affect the average coin collectors, good and bad. What the rich do affect the average coin collector just as much as what the coin collector with a $120 a year budget does!
Of course we love each other and that we get along just fine. LOL.
<< <i>Oreville - I'll just have to agree to disagree with you on your last post. People do some things in life "because they can" do them. This explains why some -- but not all -- of the most well to do buy the most expensive collectibles.
The only thing on which I concur re said post is that egos are often involved. A major reason why some particular coin brings what appears to be a shocking amount of money is because two guys with deep pockets get into a "pi**ing context" over said coin. I'll let you make the call re how much of this is a desire to own said coin, and how much of it is ego. I imagine it varies on the particular sets of facts and circumstances.
My point is, if King Farouk's son or TDN pay $4,000,000 for a 1913 Liberty Nickel, it doesn't affect anyone outside of an elite handful of people. >>
The same sort of argument applies to those who collect MS70/PF70 coins or top pop moderns more generally.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Coolness is in the eye of the beholder (and is not directly proportional to the depth of the pocketbook.)
Legend wrote:
Yes, Legend happens to exclusively deal with 3 of them. We unhesitatingly would say that between our good friend from Ft Worth, TX, and the family down the road in Dallas (who own 2 1804 $1 and the unquestioned greatest BUST collections ever), COMBINED their collections are worth a startling $500,000,000.00!
Does Legend sign exclusivity contracts with these buyers? If so, what's in it for the buyers? If not, how does Legend know these buyers do not shop elsewhere, as well? >>
so much easier to snag a healthy percentage off rich people who dont know exactly what the frig they're buying and are just looking to invest, I would suspect. Im sure the high end market is extremely lucrative for the dealer with the most-silver tongue.
<< <i>
<< <i>Coolness is in the eye of the beholder (and is not directly proportional to the depth of the pocketbook.)
Legend wrote:
Yes, Legend happens to exclusively deal with 3 of them. We unhesitatingly would say that between our good friend from Ft Worth, TX, and the family down the road in Dallas (who own 2 1804 $1 and the unquestioned greatest BUST collections ever), COMBINED their collections are worth a startling $500,000,000.00!
Does Legend sign exclusivity contracts with these buyers? If so, what's in it for the buyers? If not, how does Legend know these buyers do not shop elsewhere, as well? >>
so much easier to snag a healthy percentage off rich people who dont know exactly what the frig they're buying and are just looking to invest, I would suspect. Im sure the high end market is extremely lucrative for the dealer with the most-silver tongue. >>
Except that THOSE rich people DO know exactly what they are buying.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Yap, yap, yap. See Olsen 1913 Lib nickel. Sold privately by myself thru legend and blanchard and then offered a few years later in heritage. Just the situation you yearned for... >>
Relax. The real chumps in this theater are those innocent collectors who read about these transactions from people like your broker and as she advises don’t think twice about shelling out premiums over fair market value for the coins they like simply because they’re thoroughly convinced they must emulate the buying habits of an elite crowd of collectors who consider money no object when they go to buy the coins they like. I should have made that clear, before; sorry...
<< <i>
<< <i>Do you think it's appropriate for other people to tell you how you should spend your money, or is it just okay when you do it to them?
Isn't that the definition of a Democrat? >>
Didn't they ban you Berry for saying dumb/off topic Ka Ka like that.
My admittedly limited experience with billionaires is they are less inclined to overpay X% for a fabulous seven figure coin than J6P is willing to overpay X% for a fabulous four figure coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> The real chumps in this theater are those innocent collectors who read about these transactions from people like your broker and as she advises don’t think twice about shelling out premiums over fair market value for the coins they like simply because they’re thoroughly convinced they must emulate the buying habits of an elite crowd of collectors who consider money no object when they go to buy the coins they like. I should have made that clear, before; sorry... >>
The top dealers scarf up all of the good stuff at the auctions and from other dealers during dealer set up at shows, and then they mark it up to painful premium prices, leaving the coin junkies with the choice of paying more than might make sense or passing on the nice coins and paying less for lesser quality elsewhere. The only alternative is to fly around the country from auction to auction and try to buy at one bid increment above the dealers. Of course once you add in travel, lodging, time, and the ensuing divorce, that might not be such a deal either.
CG
<< <i>
<< <i>Yap, yap, yap. See Olsen 1913 Lib nickel. Sold privately by myself thru legend and blanchard and then offered a few years later in heritage. Just the situation you yearned for... >>
Relax. The real chumps in this theater are those innocent collectors who read about these transactions from people like your broker and as she advises don’t think twice about shelling out premiums over fair market value for the coins they like simply because they’re thoroughly convinced they must emulate the buying habits of an elite crowd of collectors who consider money no object when they go to buy the coins they like. I should have made that clear, before; sorry... >>
Define 'fair market value'. Greysheet ask? PCGS priceguide? Auction prices realized?
Point being that great coins for the grade are generally not available except at a premium. And certainly not for Greysheet in the areas that I collect. At least not the last time that I checked Greysheet.
<< <i>Those with the deepest pockets will not let money stand in the way of buying the finest examples of what they like. It is FIRST deciding what they LIKE and then just BUYING it. Perhaps a little hankering here and there but that might be all. Others will negotiate even harder My admittedly limited experience with billionaires is they are less inclined to overpay X% for a fabulous seven figure coin than J6P is willing to overpay X% for a fabulous four figure coin. >>
Some do, some don't. But they ALL gripe and moan about it! LOL
Are you then not a collector but a stupid person with too money? In the end, you are just a collector with the means to buy your dream coins.
we would be up to our assets in these super coins.
Camelot
<< <i>The article seems a little self serving to me but in the end it's just advertising I guess.
All the cool coins are drying up. We sell cool coins. Don't be afraid to pay 10 to 40% more for a cool coin when you see it.
Advertising with a little fear, uncertainty, and doubt tossed in. (We call it FUD in the military).
John >>
Laura, self serving? ROTFLMAO!
Don't be afraid to pay 10 to 40% more for THE RIGHT cool coin when you see it. Most of us would agree that that's good advice. The trick, of course, is knowing the right coin when you see it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i> Don't be afraid to pay 10 to 40% more for THE RIGHT cool coin when you see it. Most of us would agree that that's good advice. The trick, of course, is knowing the right coin when you see it. >>
What Andy says might be the right thinking in the upper strata, but the reality is more along what I posted above. Dealers scarf up the cream of the popular coins that are not going to make the cover of the catalog and are not the objects of desire for the big boys from Texas. These popular coins are then offered to the less well heeled collectors at substantial premiums. Even if paying a premium for coins that are obviously not the “right” coins is a bad deal, the alternative deal is to buy nothing or lesser quality. As one board member said some time ago, once someone shows you the nice stuff, the rest looks like a bunch of rusty washers.
CG
Is that what they call "retail"?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Is that what they call "retail"? >>
For some of us buying retail is psychologically traumatic.
CG
<< <i>Dealers scarf up the cream of the popular coins that are not going to make the cover of the catalog and are not the objects of desire for the big boys from Texas. These popular coins are then offered to the less well heeled collectors at substantial premiums. >>
There's nothing stopping collectors from outbidding dealers for these coins, is there? I mean- aside from having to devote time and money to the effort, right?
<< <i>
My additional comment:
What is it with all these over-generalizations? There are so many factors that affect the average coin collectors, good and bad. What the rich do affect the average coin collector just as much as what the coin collector with a $120 a year budget does! >>
You question over-generalizations and then offer one of your own?
I would say the vast majority of the areas that the "average" coin collector dabbles in have seen substantial
to moderate price declines in the last couple of years. The fact that some rich people in Japan have decided
to pay up to horde proof gold apparently hasn't done much to sustain the overall US coin market.
Speaking strictly for myself, I could care less what the whale collectors are doing at any given moment.
I'm looking at the overall market and specific coins when making my buy/sell decisions.
There is always going to be someone who has more money than you and there is always going to be someone with less money than you have.
We should all be thankful that we have enough money that we can set anything aside. At least we are not picking through the garbage at some dump looking for a half eaten grapefruit.
Capiche?
all on one coin. What if it drops on the floor, or rolls under the icebox?
I hear that the Japanese are paying for their coins in rice. Laura is now
making a two way market with 18,000 tons of rice. Make a bid,.....anyone?
Camelot
<< <i>Define 'fair market value'. Greysheet ask? PCGS priceguide? Auction prices realized?
Point being that great coins for the grade are generally not available except at a premium. And certainly not for Greysheet in the areas that I collect. At least not the last time that I checked Greysheet. >>
Pick one. My point is you don't judge a thing's fair market value on what that thing may have happened to have sold for in a privately-brokered off-market transaction.
Yet somehow, new collections continue to be formed and her firm is still in business.
The coin market is cyclical like all markets. When prices are low, many people hold on to their best coins. When prices are high, rarities somehow come out of the woodwork.
It is no coincidence that Walter Husak sold his entire large cent collection in 2008, at the top of the market.
<< <i>Do many of us on this Forum really want to put 400,000 dollars
all on one coin. What if it drops on the floor, or rolls under the icebox?
I hear that the Japanese are paying for their coins in rice. Laura is now
making a two way market with 18,000 tons of rice. Make a bid,.....anyone? >>
Excellent advice as usual Bear...I've even heard of a board member who recently lost a coin in his recliner.
You stated:
<< <i>You question over-generalizations and then offer one of your own? >>
My response: I do not recall making any generalizations.
You then stated:
<< <i>
I would say the vast majority of the areas that the "average" coin collector dabbles in have seen substantial
to moderate price declines in the last couple of years. The fact that some rich people in Japan have decided
to pay up to horde proof gold apparently hasn't done much to sustain the overall US coin market. >>
My response:
I am not sure what your point is? Many areas of the overall US coin market has done quite well indeed. But you can't pick one single causal factor such as the Japanese buying lots of US proof gold coins (at cheap prices to them because of the very strong Yen) and then attack it because it did not prop the entire market.
You then stated:
<< <i>
Speaking strictly for myself, I could care less what the whale collectors are doing at any given moment.
I'm looking at the overall market and specific coins when making my buy/sell decisions. >>
My response: This should not be about what we care about and what we could care less about. This is NOT about our personal likes and dislikes and our personal preferences. Just trying to get into the root cause and effect as much as possible which is not easy to determine.