Ken Griffey Jr. in your top ten?
Tomi
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So how many of you put Ken Griffey Jr. in your top 10 all-time players. Stats, body of work (basically all-around ability-offense and defense) ,etc.
Just curious how many people have him in their top 10 all-time.
Given all of his injuries for the second half of his career, all I can say is what could have been even though he had an amazing career anyway.
One of the sweetest swings ever.
Just curious how many people have him in their top 10 all-time.
Given all of his injuries for the second half of his career, all I can say is what could have been even though he had an amazing career anyway.
One of the sweetest swings ever.
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In terms of the last 20-25 years, he is probably #1. Career wise and without the juice.
Ruth
Mays
T. Williams
Cobb
Aaron
Mantle
Gehrig
Brett
Wagner
Schmidt
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Half his career was simply just spending time on the DL and playing a few games. He had enough spectacular seasons to make his case, though. He was top 10 in OPS+ nine times in his career finishing 2nd (his best) one time. He was top 10 in eight out nine seasons on one stretch and made it on top again later in his career. Just having that kind of performance with a 10 year span merits the HOF. His 2nd half did not tarnish what he did earlier in his career. Frank Thomas was actually the more dominant offensive force, but Griffey was so close for so long, plus had a stellar glove, that it make ups for it.
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<< <i>By far the best player of the '90s...I'd rank him very high, not sure about top 10, though...does he rank higher than any of these position players?
Ruth
Mays
T. Williams
Cobb
Aaron
Mantle
Gehrig
Brett
Wagner
Schmidt >>
For the players that played the majority of their career post WW2 I would take him over Williams,Brett and Schmidt.
Maybe just maybe Mantle and Aaron not Mays though as much as I would like to I won't.
Pre war stuff I don't know? Ruth was the only guy in his time that made enough money to not have a part time
job? Yeah he was great and all but it was different back then. Ruth, Cobb,Wagner and Gehrig never played against
blacks or faced a 7th inning guy throwing 98 fresh from the bull pen. It is hard to compare them to modern players.
I probably would take Pujols and Rodriguez over Griffey but its hard for me as I watched him be a human highlight
reel each and every night for about 11 years..
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Geo Ruth
Barry Bonds
Ted Williams
Tyrus Cobb
Willie Mays
Joe DiMaggio
Jimmie Foxx
Rogers Hornsby
Lou Gehrig
Albert Pujols
Joe Jackson
Henry Aaron
Geo Sisler
Hans Wagner
Tris Speaker
Nap Lajoie
Stan Musial
Ichiro Suzuki
Tony Gwynn
Aloisius Szymanski
Many Ramirez, Ken Griffey Jr, and Alex Rodriguez would fit into the 2nd 10 IMO
Mickey Mantle maybe top 30,.....
4 X 100+ RBI seasons for a cleanup hitter on best team in MLB .....wtf?
(Kent 8X, Mays 10X, Ramirez 12X, Szymanski 12X, Rodriguez 14X, etc.)
(Ruth was a token, Aaron Rules)
I'd like to see the ages of the people who put him in their top 10. My guess is they are all under 50 and possibly all under 40.
Like others have said, hard to compare today's players with those of yesteryear.
Those who still think MANTLE was not one of the best to ever put on a uniform ... you just don't get it. Not looking to debate the issue.
Doug
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Quite honestly....when the words "all around" are used how does anyone put Ted Williams in the mix? Granted he was an elite hitter; but basically below average on everything else.
Yes to top 10.
<< <i>Though if it weren't for the steroid issue, I'd have to rank Bonds over Griffey, too...probably Arod, too.. >>
Bonds w/o the clear & the cream was still a beast of a player. His OPS, his patience at the plate, his glove, his speed.
Not sure about Griffey as a top 10 - mostly because of injuries - but a future HOF'er and a helluva player, yes.
As for injuries...if you knock Griffey you really have to knock Mantle.
He tore his hamstring in what 2001 and he was never the same.
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Like-a-bility top ten - YES...
Overall player - No
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<< <i>By far the best player of the '90s...I'd rank him very high, not sure about top 10, though...does he rank higher than any of these position players?
Ruth
Mays
T. Williams
Cobb
Aaron
Mantle
Gehrig
Brett
Wagner
Schmidt >>
"By far"? You are forgeting about one of the best pure hitters baseball has ever seen. Here is a trivia question.....you tell me who the fourth player is:
He is one of four players (the others being Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams) to have at least a .300 batting average, 500 home runs, 1,500 RBI, 1,000 runs and 1,500 walks in a career.
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David (LD_Ferg)
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Ruth
Mays
T. Williams
Cobb
Aaron
Mantle
Gehrig
Brett
Wagner
Schmidt >>
"By far"? You are forgeting about one of the best pure hitters baseball has ever seen. Here is a trivia question.....you tell me who the fourth player is:
He is one of four players (the others being Mel Ott, Babe Ruth and Ted Williams) to have at least a .300 batting average, 500 home runs, 1,500 RBI, 1,000 runs and 1,500 walks in a career.
Frank Thomas was a beast at the plate, but Griffey was hands down the best all around player (he was a much better fielder and played a much more significant position in the field). BTW, Arod also fits the criteria you listed, too..
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He played a great centerfield. He was a great player but possibly a teensy bit over-hyped.
Top 50 for sure. Not near my top ten.
<< <i>How many times over the course of someone's career do their wall-scaling abilities really factor in to their overall production?
He played a great centerfield. He was a great player but possibly a teensy bit over-hyped.
Top 50 for sure. Not near my top ten. >>
Over hyped? How long would it have taken for the game to recover from the strike without Griffey's energy and fan's adoration for him? Things like that, things that aren't tangible, put him at a level above Bonds (who, btw, was a better hitter by far) and everyone else in the 90's. Not to mention, that if the strike hadn't happened, Griffey would have, in all likelihood, been the one to hit 61. Other players were on a pace that year, but it was Griffey people wanted to see do it.
<< <i>How many times over the course of someone's career do their wall-scaling abilities really factor in to their overall production?
He played a great centerfield. He was a great player but possibly a teensy bit over-hyped.
Top 50 for sure. Not near my top ten. >>
How do you overhype a guy with 630 home runs who at his peak was one of the greatest defensive CF's to play the game? Even though he declined, he still was a productive (albeit injury prone) hitter for a good 570 of those. And he did all of this while losing around 4 seasons worth of play due to injury before age 34 or 35 (so better years skill-wise).
Mays was better, but Griffey could easily be right behind him on the alltime CF list.
Griffey is probably top 20, but not top 10.
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<< <i>You know, I'm no Pete Rose fan, but I wonder why he is never in a debate of top 10s of all time? Or even top 25s? Whether you like him or not (I don't), he was a pretty decent player. >>
I just don't see Rose as a dominant player. He was great, but not top 10.
It is tough to compare Griffey to Pre WWII, like Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, and Aloysius Szymanski.
<< <i>You know, I'm no Pete Rose fan, but I wonder why he is never in a debate of top 10s of all time? Or even top 25s? Whether you like him or not (I don't), he was a pretty decent player. >>
He had a lot of at bats in a lot of plate appearances in a lot of seasons. No doubt a very good player, but he did nothing well enough to be considered top 10 or even top 50 I believe. He could hit for average...that was about it.
He held on too long...
He will be a great coach one day...
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I can think of several reasons to keeP him far away from the top tEn, but I feel like this threaD iS more of a Griffey lovefest than an actual debate so I'll keep those thoughts to myself for now.
It is possible to be simultaneously awesome AND over-hyped as well. I think Griffey definitely qualifies. The guy was a teenage phenom with arguably the coolest attainable rookie card ever. He was showing up in really neat ads when a lot of us were at an impressionable age. He wore his hat backwards and swung for the fences and climbed outfield walls. Over-hyped? Absolutely. I don't doubt that he and his agency would take that as a compliment.
1. Aaron
2. Mays
3. Ruth
4. Williams
5. Cobb
6. Gehrig
7. Bonds
8. Musial
9. Hornsby
10. Schmidt
Edited to add, Henderson is the only other modern player I'd put ahead of Griffey
IMF
<< <i>Hey was a great player. No way top ten.
I'd like to see the ages of the people who put him in their top 10. My guess is they are all under 50 and possibly all under 40.
Like others have said, hard to compare today's players with those of yesteryear.
Those who still think MANTLE was not one of the best to ever put on a uniform ... you just don't get it. Not looking to debate the issue. >>
Doug,I fully agree with your assessment of the Mick who is also my favorite player maybe not the best of all time but definetley up there in the top 10.
however you know how old I am and I do put Griifey Jr at 10.He is the only post 70 player I would include in my top 10 although George Brett was my favorite post 70 player right ahead of KGJ.
If the Mick had taken care of himself and did not have two bad legs throughout most of his career he would be in a class by himself.
Creating 85 runs on offense, and saving 2 on defense is better than...
Creating 35 runs on offense, and saving 25 on defense!
That is how you have to look at a comparison with someone like Williams vs. Griffey. Who cares that Griffey did it with a more balanced offense/defense effort. The final ledger is what matters!
People that are saying Griffey is as good as Mantle and Mays are absolutely insane. Not even sure that is worth the effort to debate, it is that ridiculous. Those guys were the best of the best. I think Griffey managed to be the best player in MLB one season. Those guys did it several times...and they were closer to the very top for much longer too(mays more than mantle in that regard, but both more than Griffey).
Griffey is not as good as Bonds, not even close. Yeah, I know, the steroids....Griffey is not beyond use himself. Don't be so sure of yourself guys.
Also, before roids, Bonds was better than Griffey those years too.
- Griffey a great coach some day? Really? This is a guy who was criticized throughout his career for not keeping himself in shape (never stretching, rarely exercising, etc) and not being a hard worker. He was naturally talented and that worked for him until his body broke down even a little bit.
- Pete Rose a top 10 guy? Really? A career .409 slugging % guy? Who, despite his 2 Gold Gloves, was never an elite defender (if he were, would he REALLY have played so many positions?) He "hit for average" but finished with just a .303 for his career.
As for Griffey, I'm really torn on him. His first 11 years were off the charts great. 10-time Gold Glover, an MVP, back-to-back 56 HR seasons, etc. But man, those last 10 years... he had 2 good ones (2005 & 2007) but the rest of the time was an average - or worse - player. By the time he returned to Seattle, he was fat, slow, and not good at all. Yes, injuries impacted him, but really, how long should the effects of a hamstring injury be on a guy who is 31?
So, for me, definitely outside the top 10. Even in the last 20 years, I'd take (at least) Bonds, A-Rod, and Clemens ahead of him.
Tabe
<< <i>You know, I'm no Pete Rose fan, but I wonder why he is never in a debate of top 10s of all time? Or even top 25s? Whether you like him or not (I don't), he was a pretty decent player. >>
I would put Rose in the top 20 for sure. Mantle and Clemente as well.
"All around" player means squat. BETTER is what matters.
Devon White was more of an "all around" player than Ted Williams.
Raul Mondesi was more of an "all around player" than Willie McCovey...I think the folly of that criteria is pretty clear, no?
So to answer the initial question of top 10 all time players, anyone that says Griffey is ahead of Ted Williams, needs a new baseball education.
As for Griffey in the top 10 all time...he still has from his own era Barry Bonds dwarfing him, Alex Rodriguez beating him, and when it is said in done Pujols and Jeter will probably be ahead of him too. Not to mention Pedro, CLemens, Unit, and Maddux...those guys are "Players" too. So just from his own era he is almost out of the top 10.
As for Ted Williams, he is in the top ten as it stands....and when you consider strongly the prime years missed during the war, he is in the top three or four all time. Yeah, I know, he never won a title...and I know naive fans still want to believe in that garbage....
THen we have people putting Griffey with Mantle and Mays....good lord.
Clearly he is NOT top 10 all time. I'm not going to bother nailing down an exact area for his all time ranking...that takes too much time, and it would just be some sort or range anyway. It doesn't take much time at all to determine if he is in the range of the top 10 all time.
Please do not forget that Griffey's prime years came during the ultimate Live Ball era of the late 90's. If you have any salt in your cupboard, just go ahead and throw it on the spreadsheet of his stats on those years. Even when you give an a era adjustment,that still isn't enough compared to guys like Brett and Schmidt who had to excel in a much harder time for a super star to excel in.
<< <i>In the 1st post to this thread...he said all around ability and Ted Williams is still being mentioned- I don't understand this. "All around" Everyone knows that Willams was a great hitter and everyone knows that he was not a great baserunner or fielder. Babe Ruth was a much better all around player than Williams. Ruth ran well for a big man and had a great arm in the outfield. Not to mention his pitching performances in the post season. Enough about Williams as this all around player...
If "all around" suddenly means fielding/baserunning is as important as hitting (which is silly) and there are no points lost for injuries and lean years, then Bo Jackson is better than everyone, right?
I don't think it can be overstated that Griffey was the MLB posterboy for "cool" in a time PErioD when the saturation of cable TV and high quality sports video games were growing exponentially. It makes sense to me that people are having an emotional reaction in Griffey's favor.
I think Bill James makes a pretty interesting case in this excerpt.
<< <i>
<< <i>In the 1st post to this thread...he said all around ability and Ted Williams is still being mentioned- I don't understand this. "All around" Everyone knows that Willams was a great hitter and everyone knows that he was not a great baserunner or fielder. Babe Ruth was a much better all around player than Williams. Ruth ran well for a big man and had a great arm in the outfield. Not to mention his pitching performances in the post season. Enough about Williams as this all around player...
If "all around" suddenly means fielding/baserunning is as important as hitting (which is silly) and there are no points lost for injuries and lean years, then Bo Jackson is better than everyone, right?
I don't think it can be overstated that Griffey was the MLB posterboy for "cool" in a time PErioD when the saturation of cable TV and high quality sports video games were growing exponentially. It makes sense to me that people are having an emotional reaction in Griffey's favor.
I think Bill James makes a pretty interesting case in this excerpt. >>
TheHallmark, stop...valid research has no place for many on these boards
That "all around" tag is used so incorrectly, and it is almost now a worthless term. Ted Williams was so far superior to Griffey offensively, it makes ZERO difference that Griffey's very modest stolen base totals, and Griffey's overly flashy exubernt centerfield play were stuff that Williams did not do. The sum total of their ability to creat runs/wins has Williams way ahead.
P.S. Good points
<< <i>He would be top-ten if he worked harder. He always got-by on talent alone and never really put-in the extra effort. He is an all-time great, just not top-ten. >>
And Ruth was a work out machine? Yup crashing into walls nightly, diving for balls in the middle of May and
hustling the bases in April is definitly not putting in the extra effort....The thing that gets me is if he signed with the Yankees
in 1995 and was part of the 96 , 98 ,99 and 2000 teams we wouldn't even be having this conversation. He told the Yankees to go
pound and now he is a bum that didn't work hard and wore his hat backwards,go figure.
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