<< <i> There it is. The bottom line is that MY opinion of a coin is all that matters to me--not anyone else's. >>
That's a fair strategy for putting together a coin collection, but not if you (or your heirs) intend to sell later on---at that time, the opinions of others will matter a great deal. >>
That's just it, though. I don't intend to sell it later, and as I have stated before I really couldn't care less what my kids receive from it when they sell it off. And the original question asked what I personally was doing to protect myself.
It is my contention (and always has been) that if I personally cannot tell that a coin has been messed with then I either need to do more study before buying that particular coin or take personal responsibility for my lack of knowledge if I buy it anyway. It is not up to the PNG, or PCGS, or NGC, or the ANA, or CAC, or SPG, or any other letter conglomeration to save me from myself--NOR SHOULD IT BE!!
Just because I'm old doesn't mean I don't love to look at a pretty bust.
<< <i> There it is. The bottom line is that MY opinion of a coin is all that matters to me--not anyone else's. >>
That's a fair strategy for putting together a coin collection, but not if you (or your heirs) intend to sell later on---at that time, the opinions of others will matter a great deal. >>
That's just it, though. I don't intend to sell it later, and as I have stated before I really couldn't care less what my kids receive from it when they sell it off. And the original question asked what I personally was doing to protect myself.
It is my contention (and always has been) that if I personally cannot tell that a coin has been messed with then I either need to do more study before buying that particular coin or take personal responsibility for my lack of knowledge if I buy it anyway. It is not up to the PNG, or PCGS, or NGC, or the ANA, or CAC, or SPG, or any other letter conglomeration to save me from myself--NOR SHOULD IT BE!! >>
Here, Here ... I don't imbibe or I would drink to that bit of truly "conservative" wisdom... but I will take another sip of coffee
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
...as I have stated before I really couldn't care less what my kids receive from it when they sell it off.
If that's the case, why leave the coins to the kids in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to leave the coins to a charitable cause that means something to you?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>...as I have stated before I really couldn't care less what my kids receive from it when they sell it off.
If that's the case, why leave the coins to the kids in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to leave the coins to a charitable cause that means something to you? >>
Maybe his kids don't need the money and it is likely he doesn't care how much the charitable cause gets either. In either case one should at least leave the recipients with the name/s of a trustworthy person/company who would help them if they decide to sell.
When I buy a coin, it will be under the following condition:
1. PCGS secure Graded
2. CAC
3. From a reputable dealer, that stands behind every coin they sell.
At the present time, that is the very best that one can do. At that, it seems
pretty good to me. One heck of a lot better then anything that has gone before.
I also agree that PCGS would be well served to keep most details and security statistics classified so as not to assist the coin doctors, in computing their chances of getting a doctored coin passed and graded.
I'm "protecting myself from coin doctors" the same way I'm protecting myself from terrorists, the swine flu, hyperinflation, lone gunman madmen, droughts, bird flu, global warming, black widow spiders, asteroid impacts, the government, the recession, floods, gang activity, earthquakes, poisonous snakes, and falls from high places.
I go about my damned business and take reasonable precautions, not worrying very much at all about any of the hype
I'm "protecting myself from coin doctors" the same way I'm protecting myself from terrorists, the swine flu, hyperinflation, lone gunman madmen, droughts, bird flu, global warming, black widow spiders, asteroid impacts, the government, the recession, floods, gang activity, earthquakes, poisonous snakes, and falls from high places.
I go about my damned business and take reasonable precautions, not worrying very much at all about any of the hype >>
Much of what you might call "hype" about coin doctoring, is anything but.
I don't claim that you fall into this category, but many participants in the coin hobby have no idea how widespread coin doctoring is, or how badly they can be or have been damaged by it.
I hear ya, Mark. If I dealt in coins, I'd be more concerned. As a collector, this affects me Zero, because I go with the assumption that EVERY coin is "doctored" because I define doctoring so broadly that the definition includes simply toucing a coin by the edges and carefully putting it into a flip.
Now, since every single numismatic coin is "doctored", to me it's just a matter of degree. For common coin I have zero tolerance for anything even remotely questionable
for more expensive coins, I either price in my level of "doubt" or simply pass
... whereas a dealer doesn't have the option of simply living and learning from mistakes that only affect himself, but must stand behind his material because
a buyer may later come back and say, "hey, this coin you sold me a while ago, in a reputable holder, is turning ugly, or looks the same as always, but is now questionable by several opinion-givers. Can I have a refund?"
Does the dealer or does the dealer not undwind the deal? (accept return for refund)
<< <i>... whereas a dealer doesn't have the option of simply living and learning from mistakes that only affect himself, but must stand behind his material because
a buyer may later come back and say, "hey, this coin you sold me a while ago, in a reputable holder, is turning ugly, or looks the same as always, but is now questionable by several opinion-givers. Can I have a refund?"
Does the dealer or does the dealer not undwind the deal? (accept return for refund) >>
The first step should probably be for the dealer to assist the client in trying to get the grading company to make good on its guarantee.
right, see, it's already getting complicated. Got to be sending coins around, waiting for more opinions?
Better to avoid doctorish kinds of coins in the first place, and/or develop a very good eye for toning, repairs, alterations, hairlines, and all the rest
<< ... whereas a dealer doesn't have the option of simply living and learning from mistakes that only affect himself, but must stand behind his material because
a buyer may later come back and say, "hey, this coin you sold me a while ago, in a reputable holder, is turning ugly, or looks the same as always, but is now questionable by several opinion-givers. Can I have a refund?"
Does the dealer or does the dealer not undwind the deal? (accept return for refund) >>
Through my experience with discussing this and similar issues with collectors and dealers as part of my "ethics" column in the Numismatist, as well as at the "Lie, Cheat & Steal" sessions at ANA Summer Seminar, I've learned beyond question that there is a strong consensus that dealers are not considered to be responsible for the authenticity or quality of slabbed coins. And this consensus does not change even if the coin is slabbed by a "third world" TPG, or - in the future - by a major TPG that has gone out of business. Horrifying, but true. (Please don't shoot the messenger.)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i><< ... whereas a dealer doesn't have the option of simply living and learning from mistakes that only affect himself, but must stand behind his material because
a buyer may later come back and say, "hey, this coin you sold me a while ago, in a reputable holder, is turning ugly, or looks the same as always, but is now questionable by several opinion-givers. Can I have a refund?"
Does the dealer or does the dealer not undwind the deal? (accept return for refund) >>
Through my experience with discussing this and similar issues with collectors and dealers as part of my "ethics" column in the Numismatist, as well as at the "Lie, Cheat & Steal" sessions at ANA Summer Seminar, I've learned beyond question that there is a strong consensus that dealers are not considered to be responsible for the authenticity or quality of slabbed coins. And this consensus does not change even if the coin is slabbed by a "third world" TPG, or - in the future - by a major TPG that has gone out of business. Horrifying, but true. (Please don't shoot the messenger.) >>
Not responsible for the "authenticity"? Legally, I believe they are. I don't care what the consensus is, though I'd love to hear the rationale.
Not responsible for the "authenticity"? Legally, I believe they are. I don't care what the consensus is, though I'd love to hear the rationale.
I believe the rationale is that the coin comes with a guaranty of authenticity from the TPG, and that both the buyer and the seller therefore rely on that guaranty and accept it as the only guaranty. Personally, I think the argument is cr*p, but it does seem to be the consensus.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>If a doctor job is good enough to fool the TPGs, it is most likely good enough to fool most dealers.
Someone needs to put out a list of the most commonly doctored coins and as best they can descriptions of the most common types of doctoring with pics. >>
I am a newbie! But this is what I don't get. Toned Coins are caused by contaminates that form a chemical reaction with the coin. one is intentional (coin doctors) the other is not? (stuck in an album or bag for decades) How can intentional be proven? There isn't any difference IMO. if you like colorful coins, I don't see any difference in how they got their colors. They all should be graded as environmental damage cause isn't that what it is? Guess its too late for that.
Assuming that coin doctors=toned coins. How do you protect yourself? Don't buy them?
<< <i> As a collector, this affects me Zero, because I go with the assumption that EVERY coin is "doctored" because I define doctoring so broadly that the definition includes simply toucing a coin by the edges and carefully putting it into a flip. >>
On Dec. 27, I bought the elusive AU Heraldic Eagle Bust $ I have spent the last eight years trying to find. It's the most expensive coin I've ever purchased. It's original, in a PC holder, a 53, and has a CAC sticker (they rarely sticker coins in this series, and this one deserves it).
* I use people whom I consider to be reliable sources whom I have known personally for years, sometimes a decade or more * I always get a second opinion on any coin I purchase from someone I think knows more about potential issues (specifically, the possibility of coin doctoring) than I do. When possible, I get a third opinion * I am open to learning new things about what I collect, and am not afraid to ask questions * I never buy a coin just because I have the funds, or without doing the other starred items
I'd rather trust my people, their skills and expertise, and mine as well, than defer to others in these matters. If you think buying a coin because it has a slab, a plus, a sticker or a star is the answer, I wish you a lot of luck, because frankly, I think you'll need it.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>Not responsible for the "authenticity"? Legally, I believe they are. I don't care what the consensus is, though I'd love to hear the rationale.
I believe the rationale is that the coin comes with a guaranty of authenticity from the TPG, and that both the buyer and the seller therefore rely on that guaranty and accept it as the only guaranty. Personally, I think the argument is cr*p, but it does seem to be the consensus. >>
What about fake slabs? High quality fakes in fake slabs are a bigger problem than doctored coins. Are some dealers playing a game of "hot potato," with fake slabs, knowingly dumping fakes when they are discovered, to the dumbest dealer they can find and having them handle it?
<< <i>4. I buy dirty original coins, an area where I have not seen much doctoring. Has anyone seen coins that have been AD'ed, artificially dirtied? >>
RYK brings up a pretty good point. Are circulated coins less doctored than uncirculated coins and what percentage of doctored coins are uncirculated verses circulated? >>
I agree, it usually means the coin is original... though I have seen some nicely done AD'ed counterfeit Trade Dollars and other Chinese copies of early silver. IMO the eBay AT toned coin market is probably 75%+ circulated coins. The sellers who specialize in AT are buying AU and slider coins at a bit more than melt, adding color and passing them off as BU toners, hoping for the biggest bids. There are few coin docs that are skilled enough to be messing with uncirculated coins minted before 1950, but there are plenty of hideous modern BS and proofs.
What about fake slabs? High quality fakes in fake slabs are a bigger problem than doctored coins. Are some dealers playing a game of "hot potato," with fake slabs, knowingly dumping fakes when they are discovered, to the dumbest dealer they can find and having them handle it?
I'm sure that's happening to some extent. But I also think that the consensus is that buyers always have recourse on fake slabs, in part because there is in reality no guaranty from any other party. Ironically, coin dealers are, in this respect, considered to be more responsible for the plastic they sell than for the coins they sell.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>........ So, what can we do to protect ourselves? >>
Buy the new garbage from the US Mint. Rest assured, nothing's been done to those unartistic coins. >>
And yet you have a modern U.S. Mint coin as your avatar.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Frank---What are you planning to do with that stack of coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
This weekend, I heard of a fool-proof method of avoiding coin doctors and their wares...
drum roll
stop buying coins
nothing else will EVER work... build a better mouse trap and "they" will build a better mouse... human greed will always "find a way" ... it is the nature of the beast known as "capitalism"...
no winky, either...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Comments
For by wise guidance and in abundance of counselors there is victory. Proverbs 11:14 and 26:4
Gary
<< <i>
There it is. The bottom line is that MY opinion of a coin is all that matters to me--not anyone else's. >>
That's a fair strategy for putting together a coin collection, but not if you (or your heirs) intend to sell later on---at that time, the opinions of others will matter a great deal. >>
That's just it, though. I don't intend to sell it later, and as I have stated before I really couldn't care less what my kids receive from it when they sell it off. And the original question asked what I personally was doing to protect myself.
It is my contention (and always has been) that if I personally cannot tell that a coin has been messed with then I either need to do more study before buying that particular coin or take personal responsibility for my lack of knowledge if I buy it anyway. It is not up to the PNG, or PCGS, or NGC, or the ANA, or CAC, or SPG, or any other letter conglomeration to save me from myself--NOR SHOULD IT BE!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
There it is. The bottom line is that MY opinion of a coin is all that matters to me--not anyone else's. >>
That's a fair strategy for putting together a coin collection, but not if you (or your heirs) intend to sell later on---at that time, the opinions of others will matter a great deal. >>
That's just it, though. I don't intend to sell it later, and as I have stated before I really couldn't care less what my kids receive from it when they sell it off. And the original question asked what I personally was doing to protect myself.
It is my contention (and always has been) that if I personally cannot tell that a coin has been messed with then I either need to do more study before buying that particular coin or take personal responsibility for my lack of knowledge if I buy it anyway. It is not up to the PNG, or PCGS, or NGC, or the ANA, or CAC, or SPG, or any other letter conglomeration to save me from myself--NOR SHOULD IT BE!! >>
Here, Here ... I don't imbibe or I would drink to that bit of truly "conservative" wisdom... but I will take another sip of coffee
If that's the case, why leave the coins to the kids in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to leave the coins to a charitable cause that means something to you?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>...as I have stated before I really couldn't care less what my kids receive from it when they sell it off.
If that's the case, why leave the coins to the kids in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to leave the coins to a charitable cause that means something to you? >>
Maybe his kids don't need the money and it is likely he doesn't care how much the charitable cause gets either. In either case one should at least leave the recipients with the name/s of a trustworthy person/company who would help them if they decide to sell.
1. PCGS secure Graded
2. CAC
3. From a reputable dealer, that stands behind every coin they sell.
At the present time, that is the very best that one can do. At that, it seems
pretty good to me. One heck of a lot better then anything that has gone before.
I also agree that PCGS would be well served to keep most details and security
statistics classified so as not to assist the coin doctors, in computing their chances
of getting a doctored coin passed and graded.
Camelot
I have also stocked up on tinned food, I hope I get it finished before they come to my neighbourhood...
I'm "protecting myself from coin doctors" the same way I'm protecting myself from terrorists, the swine flu, hyperinflation, lone gunman madmen, droughts, bird flu, global warming, black widow spiders, asteroid impacts, the government, the recession, floods, gang activity, earthquakes, poisonous snakes, and falls from high places.
I go about my damned business and take reasonable precautions, not worrying very much at all about any of the hype
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Lafayette Grading Set
<< <i>heh, the previous reply made me smile.
I'm "protecting myself from coin doctors" the same way I'm protecting myself from terrorists, the swine flu, hyperinflation, lone gunman madmen, droughts, bird flu, global warming, black widow spiders, asteroid impacts, the government, the recession, floods, gang activity, earthquakes, poisonous snakes, and falls from high places.
I go about my damned business and take reasonable precautions, not worrying very much at all about any of the hype >>
Much of what you might call "hype" about coin doctoring, is anything but.
I don't claim that you fall into this category, but many participants in the coin hobby have no idea how widespread coin doctoring is, or how badly they can be or have been damaged by it.
Now, since every single numismatic coin is "doctored", to me it's just a matter of degree. For common coin I have zero tolerance for anything even remotely questionable
for more expensive coins, I either price in my level of "doubt" or simply pass
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
a buyer may later come back and say, "hey, this coin you sold me a while ago, in a reputable holder, is turning ugly, or looks the same as always, but is now questionable by several opinion-givers. Can I have a refund?"
Does the dealer or does the dealer not undwind the deal? (accept return for refund)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>... whereas a dealer doesn't have the option of simply living and learning from mistakes that only affect himself, but must stand behind his material because
a buyer may later come back and say, "hey, this coin you sold me a while ago, in a reputable holder, is turning ugly, or looks the same as always, but is now questionable by several opinion-givers. Can I have a refund?"
Does the dealer or does the dealer not undwind the deal? (accept return for refund) >>
The first step should probably be for the dealer to assist the client in trying to get the grading company to make good on its guarantee.
Better to avoid doctorish kinds of coins in the first place, and/or develop a very good eye for toning, repairs, alterations, hairlines, and all the rest
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
a buyer may later come back and say, "hey, this coin you sold me a while ago, in a reputable holder, is turning ugly, or looks the same as always, but is now questionable by several opinion-givers. Can I have a refund?"
Does the dealer or does the dealer not undwind the deal? (accept return for refund) >>
Through my experience with discussing this and similar issues with collectors and dealers as part of my "ethics" column in the Numismatist, as well as at the "Lie, Cheat & Steal" sessions at ANA Summer Seminar, I've learned beyond question that there is a strong consensus that dealers are not considered to be responsible for the authenticity or quality of slabbed coins. And this consensus does not change even if the coin is slabbed by a "third world" TPG, or - in the future - by a major TPG that has gone out of business. Horrifying, but true. (Please don't shoot the messenger.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i><< ... whereas a dealer doesn't have the option of simply living and learning from mistakes that only affect himself, but must stand behind his material because
a buyer may later come back and say, "hey, this coin you sold me a while ago, in a reputable holder, is turning ugly, or looks the same as always, but is now questionable by several opinion-givers. Can I have a refund?"
Does the dealer or does the dealer not undwind the deal? (accept return for refund) >>
Through my experience with discussing this and similar issues with collectors and dealers as part of my "ethics" column in the Numismatist, as well as at the "Lie, Cheat & Steal" sessions at ANA Summer Seminar, I've learned beyond question that there is a strong consensus that dealers are not considered to be responsible for the authenticity or quality of slabbed coins. And this consensus does not change even if the coin is slabbed by a "third world" TPG, or - in the future - by a major TPG that has gone out of business. Horrifying, but true. (Please don't shoot the messenger.) >>
Not responsible for the "authenticity"? Legally, I believe they are. I don't care what the consensus is, though I'd love to hear the rationale.
been sayin' that since day one I joined these boards - and took a hellova lot of heat for it too..............
nice some folks are coming around to reality .........
I believe the rationale is that the coin comes with a guaranty of authenticity from the TPG, and that both the buyer and the seller therefore rely on that guaranty and accept it as the only guaranty. Personally, I think the argument is cr*p, but it does seem to be the consensus.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>When the most expensive coin I ever purchased turned in it's holder, I changed my collecting focus substantially.
4. I buy dirty original coins, an area where I have not seen much doctoring. Has anyone seen coins that have been AD'ed, artificially dirtied?
>>
Yes, it is a known technique to take PVC and other such things off of one coin and add it to another to dull some of the shine from cleaning. AD'ed.
<< <i>If a doctor job is good enough to fool the TPGs, it is most likely good enough to fool most dealers.
Someone needs to put out a list of the most commonly doctored coins and as best they can descriptions of the most common types of doctoring with pics. >>
I am a newbie! But this is what I don't get. Toned Coins are caused by contaminates that form a chemical reaction with the coin. one is intentional (coin doctors) the other is not? (stuck in an album or bag for decades) How can intentional be proven? There isn't any difference IMO. if you like colorful coins, I don't see any difference in how they got their colors. They all should be graded as environmental damage cause isn't that what it is? Guess its too late for that.
Assuming that coin doctors=toned coins. How do you protect yourself? Don't buy them?
BTW I like purple pennies!
<< <i> As a collector, this affects me Zero, because I go with the assumption that EVERY coin is "doctored" because I define doctoring so broadly that the definition includes simply toucing a coin by the edges and carefully putting it into a flip. >>
ding ding ding. I agree!
On Dec. 27, I bought the elusive AU Heraldic Eagle Bust $ I have spent the last eight years trying to find. It's the most expensive coin I've ever purchased. It's original, in a PC holder, a 53, and has a CAC sticker (they rarely sticker coins in this series, and this one deserves it).
* I use people whom I consider to be reliable sources whom I have known personally for years, sometimes a decade or more
* I always get a second opinion on any coin I purchase from someone I think knows more about potential issues (specifically, the possibility of coin doctoring) than I do. When possible, I get a third opinion
* I am open to learning new things about what I collect, and am not afraid to ask questions
* I never buy a coin just because I have the funds, or without doing the other starred items
I'd rather trust my people, their skills and expertise, and mine as well, than defer to others in these matters. If you think buying a coin because it has a slab, a plus, a sticker or a star is the answer, I wish you a lot of luck, because frankly, I think you'll need it.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>What are you doing to protect yourself from coin doctors? >>
Learn as much as I can from the history available in the archives here.
<< <i>Not responsible for the "authenticity"? Legally, I believe they are. I don't care what the consensus is, though I'd love to hear the rationale.
I believe the rationale is that the coin comes with a guaranty of authenticity from the TPG, and that both the buyer and the seller therefore rely on that guaranty and accept it as the only guaranty. Personally, I think the argument is cr*p, but it does seem to be the consensus. >>
What about fake slabs? High quality fakes in fake slabs are a bigger problem than doctored coins. Are some dealers playing a game of "hot potato," with fake slabs, knowingly dumping fakes when they are discovered, to the dumbest dealer they can find and having them handle it?
<< <i>
<< <i>4. I buy dirty original coins, an area where I have not seen much doctoring. Has anyone seen coins that have been AD'ed, artificially dirtied? >>
RYK brings up a pretty good point. Are circulated coins less doctored than uncirculated coins and what percentage of doctored coins are uncirculated verses circulated? >>
I agree, it usually means the coin is original... though I have seen some nicely done AD'ed counterfeit Trade Dollars and other Chinese copies of early silver. IMO the eBay AT toned coin market is probably 75%+ circulated coins. The sellers who specialize in AT are buying AU and slider coins at a bit more than melt, adding color and passing them off as BU toners, hoping for the biggest bids. There are few coin docs that are skilled enough to be messing with uncirculated coins minted before 1950, but there are plenty of hideous modern BS and proofs.
rainbowtoned on Instagram
https://instagram.com/rainbowtoned/
I'm sure that's happening to some extent. But I also think that the consensus is that buyers always have recourse on fake slabs, in part because there is in reality no guaranty from any other party. Ironically, coin dealers are, in this respect, considered to be more responsible for the plastic they sell than for the coins they sell.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>........ So, what can we do to protect ourselves? >>
Buy the new garbage from the US Mint. Rest assured, nothing's been done to those unartistic coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>........ So, what can we do to protect ourselves? >>
Buy the new garbage from the US Mint. Rest assured, nothing's been done to those unartistic coins. >>
And yet you have a modern U.S. Mint coin as your avatar.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>So, what can we do to protect ourselves? >>
<< <i>
<< <i>So, what can we do to protect ourselves? >>
Frank---What are you planning to do with that stack of coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>What are you doing to protect yourself from coin doctors? >>
Well, I had a clove of garlic but ended up putting that in the spaghetti sauce.
I had a wooden stake but tied the dog to it. Had a crucifix I'd found while out detecting, but lost it again.
Too bad the liquid inside my holy water vials is suspiciously blue and smells like EZ-Est or Jeweluster.
drum roll
stop buying coins
nothing else will EVER work... build a better mouse trap and "they" will build a better mouse... human greed will always "find a way" ... it is the nature of the beast known as "capitalism"...
no winky, either...