What are you doing to protect yourself from coin doctors?
MrEureka
Posts: 24,198 ✭✭✭✭✭
Obviously, it's not enough to rely on the PNG to make the world safe for coin collectors. And, also obviously, we would not be having this conversation if we could completely rely on the TPGs to protect us. So, what can we do to protect ourselves?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
0
Comments
<< <i>I stopped buying coins. That should prevent me from getting burned.
Actually, I did just that. I sold off the contents of my 7070 when the remaining holes were pricey and the risk wasn't worth it.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>collect common dates below VG. $10 max at risk. >>
<< <i>collect common dates below VG. $10 max at risk. >>
If you have a common date trade dollar in VG for $10 - PM me - I'll take it!
<< <i>Buy CAC coins. >>
Or even better, buy only PCGS Secure/CAC coins...
(does that protect me or PCGS from buy-backs?)
1. I purchase coins in a lower price point, where coin docs are less likely to tread.
2. I look for older holder coins and those that are CAC approved, to help protect me from bad coins.
3. I increasingly buy coins from a select handful of dealers who are experts at spotting bad coins.
4. I buy dirty original coins, an area where I have not seen much doctoring. Has anyone seen coins that have been AD'ed, artificially dirtied?
5. I am buying more gold coins from the US Mint. That way, I will be the only doc who gets to play with them.
Two things come to mind. Educate yourself and use common sense.
Ken
Opps the question was "What are you doing to protect yourself?". Nothing. Widgets are safe.
I was hoping for a more practical solution...
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Two things come to mind. Educate yourself and use common sense.
I was hoping for a more practical solution... >>
See my first answer.
Andy:
Don't know the answer.
For me, I'm buying fewer coins from fewer dealers, preferring older holders. Trying to learn all I can about AT vs NT. If any red flags appear, I pass.
<< <i>4. I buy dirty original coins, an area where I have not seen much doctoring. Has anyone seen coins that have been AD'ed, artificially dirtied? >>
RYK brings up a pretty good point. Are circulated coins less doctored than uncirculated coins and what percentage of doctored coins are uncirculated verses circulated?
EAC 6024
<< <i>
4. I buy dirty original coins, an area where I have not seen much doctoring. Has anyone seen coins that have been AD'ed, artificially dirtied? >>
Yes, quite a few actually, but not a whole lot. Mostly early silver. No gold.
A whole new doctoring technique for your consideration: coins that are "artificially worn". Be very afraid
1997-present
For names of reputable dealers, look on these boards and ask around. Get yourself educated.
For the DON'TS:
Don't buy from someone you don't know or aren't sure of their reputation.
Don't expect to get a great coin at a bargain price.
Don't buy under weird or unusual circumstances.
Have fun.
Secure + or Secure + and CAC if they reach my price point.
I trust that our hosts not only do what they can to protect us, but they also do what they can to protect themselves. They have a lot of power they can bring to bear on this issue, and that gives me comfort.
Drunner
2. Above $1.5K or so, I want the coins in recently graded holders (PCGS SecurePlus, having a PCGS + grade) OR in an old holder (e.g., Rattler) if I have any concerns about the color. CAC or Eagle Eye Photo Seal stickers help me make up my mind some of the time. Uncertified early coppers are OK if they are accompanied by a grading card and/or clear provenance to a past auction.
3. I am making a real effort to curb impulse buying, as this is how I was burned on occasion in the past. Now I want to make each purchase count, so I do my homework.
4. If I do not understand something about a coin (e.g., toning pattern), my money stays put. Sometimes the color on a coin looks too nice (think red gem coppers). I learned some expensive lessons about this.
5. I have assembled a library of thousands of coin images pulled off the internet, primarily to document different types of toning (good, neutral, and bad) and color on early coppers, silver, and gold.
6. Years ago, I was fooled on occasion into buying certain coins because their prices were 'good deals'. This is one technique used to dump coins on the unsuspecting. I learned some expensive lessons. Quality for the grade counts first, then worry about the price.
7. I am especially careful when considering the purchase of a mint state coin when one point lower means a large reduction in price (3x or more).
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
The bottom line is... look at alot of coins and get a feel for what's been doctored and what has not... caveat emptor!
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Someone needs to put out a list of the most commonly doctored coins and as best they can descriptions of the most common types of doctoring with pics.
I'm wearing my cup.
<< <i>If a doctor job is good enough to fool the TPGs, it is most likely good enough to fool most dealers.
Someone needs to put out a list of the most commonly doctored coins and as best they can descriptions of the most common types of doctoring with pics. >>
Some starters:
1. 1944D 1C tooled to resemble 1914D 1C
2. MS63 and up early coppers that look full red (i.e., artificially colored)
3. Recently minted coins (last year or two) with wild toning
4. Standing Liberty 25C with metal added to simulate the full head look
5. Pre-1933 mint-state gold---puttied
6. Draped Bust and Flowing Hair $1, 50C---tooled
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Buy CAC coins. >>
No, have your coins Secure Plus instead.
The greed of unscrupulous dealers that have coins doctored
and knowingly handle and sell doctored coins for thr sake of greed.
The demand of collectors for specific coins without the knowledge to
know what they are doing or from whom they are buying. There are also
collectors that have their coins worked on to sell for a higher price all in
the name of greed.
Then there is the coin doctors, there always is a line out theit door for the really good
ones. They have no ethics or love of coins. All they have is a demonic ability to turn damage
into PQ, toned into blast wgite and blast white back into toned. The word is GREED.
All efforts to limit such activity are good and helpful, but all they can do is make life a little harder
and more difficult for all of these slime buckets. PCGS can hurt then by catching and notating as many
doctored coins as possible, to cut the profit margins and increase the risk to the slime buckets. Dealers
like Laura who take a hard stand are to be commended. She has made many important enemies, but she
is proud of each and every enemy she has made in her long effort to root out these slime buckets.
The long term health and economic future of coin collecting, dealing and grading depends on confidence in the
coin product, the grade and the originality of the coin. If that trust level vanishes, gone will be a great hobby and
business.
Camelot
<< <i>
<< <i>Buy CAC coins. >>
No, have your coins Secure Plus instead. >>
Why? Secure only provides a topographical map of your coin. The map AFAIK of your 1878-CC Morgan is not compared against the map of a reference 1878-CC Morgan so your coin could have been tooled when you submitted it and if not detected visually it will go into the holder as such.
equipment that PCGS now has.
Camelot
<< <i>Are circulated coins less doctored than uncirculated coins and what percentage of doctored coins are uncirculated verses circulated? >>
I think it's more obvious when a circulated coin (XF or lower) has been messed with, and thus far easier to detect.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>At the moment Secure coins are the way to go. CAC may be a backup, but does not have the technical
equipment that PCGS now has. >>
At this point it is unclear exactly what the capabilities of the Anteater are. This may or may not be intentional.
If I were trying to catch the mouse, why would I tell the mouse's breeder the details of how I plan to catch him? It just gives the mouse breeder a target for what the smarter mouse should do.
Another incremental gain. If HRH and Don Willis are smart (lol, agree with me) they would not ever reveal the number of coins the sniffer rejected. Nor what residues, refraction ratios(??), and lots of stuff I haven't considered. Why should they give away proprietary information that not only undermines their brand on a business basis and also might contribute to a diminuition of its effectiveness?
I am bothered by the lack of analysis that results in the conclusion that any one of these partial solutions is THE answer. It is cumulative.
Nothing is going to solve the problem overnight.
Protracted efforts over a expectedly extended period of time will reduce both the probability and existence of doctored coins, at least at the TPG level. These will be political and technical.
And when I do (I'm saying that with a soft snarl and one eye half closed with my index finger pointing right at you and going gently up and down)..........I intend to buy only white morgans in PCGS Secure Plus holders with CAC stickers on them where a photo can also be produced showing that it was also once in an NGC holder and that are also only sold jointly by Joe O'Connor and The Coin Dealer Whose Name Shall Not Be Spoken. That oughta do it.
I cannot protect myself.
UNLESS, I buy from the US Mint.
<< <i>Don't buy certified coins. >>
How is buying raw coins protecting you from the coin doctors? Not every doctored coin is slabbed.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Collect Moderns.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Obviously, it's not enough to rely on the PNG to make the world safe for coin collectors. And, also obviously, we would not be having this conversation if we could completely rely on the TPGs to protect us. So, what can we do to protect ourselves? >>
@ your first point. Has there ever been a time this has been true? Those blindly buying holders will always be at a loss.
For me I am not changing anything in terms of how I buy or what I buy. I am arming myself with knowledge and going about business as usual.
got a CAC sticker.
<< <i>4. I buy dirty original coins, an area where I have not seen much doctoring. Has anyone seen coins that have been AD'ed, artificially dirtied? >>
I don't know if this qualifies, RYK ... but I once had a dealer pull a handful of coins out from what must have been his underwear ( I mean, he went deep to get them
In answer to the OP ... a combination of education (a long, sometimes tedious... sometimes expensive, ongoing process) along with avoiding high priced coins (especially the coins that are on the top end of those huge spreads between grades) IMHO, that's what really attract the docs ... oh yeah... and I refuse to play into the huge-premium-for-color game... not that I don't like pretty toning... I just won't help to encourage docs to mess with coins, in order that they can feed the frenzy... collectors' willingness to pay obscene premiums for pretty colors is an open invitation to those lacking in integrity...
<< <i>
<< <i>Obviously, it's not enough to rely on the PNG to make the world safe for coin collectors. And, also obviously, we would not be having this conversation if we could completely rely on the TPGs to protect us. So, what can we do to protect ourselves? >>
@ your first point. Has there ever been a time this has been true? Those blindly buying holders will always be at a loss.
For me I am not changing anything in terms of how I buy or what I buy. I am arming myself with knowledge and going about business as usual. >>
There it is. The bottom line is that MY opinion of a coin is all that matters to me--not anyone else's.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Obviously, it's not enough to rely on the PNG to make the world safe for coin collectors. And, also obviously, we would not be having this conversation if we could completely rely on the TPGs to protect us. So, what can we do to protect ourselves? >>
@ your first point. Has there ever been a time this has been true? Those blindly buying holders will always be at a loss.
For me I am not changing anything in terms of how I buy or what I buy. I am arming myself with knowledge and going about business as usual. >>
There it is. The bottom line is that MY opinion of a coin is all that matters to me--not anyone else's. >>
That's a fair strategy for putting together a coin collection, but not if you (or your heirs) intend to sell later on---at that time, the opinions of others will matter a great deal.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>At the moment Secure coins are the way to go. CAC may be a backup, but does not have the technical
equipment that PCGS now has. >>
point, game, set and match to PCGS.
Some where raw some where cracked out and some where crossovers. I have not bought any fakes yet.
But it worries me and I am very reluctant to pull the trigger on anything of great value unless I have it in hand and I know
the dealer has a good return policy.
<< <i>
<< <i>At the moment Secure coins are the way to go. CAC may be a backup, but does not have the technical
equipment that PCGS now has. >>
point, game, set and match to PCGS. >>
Not necessarily. The real focus of CAC (remember that CAC is a consortium), how its members expect to make money, is via that facilitation of sight-unseen trading. CAC stickers are just a means to that end.
If a CAC-stickered coin is discovered to have been doctored, sell it to them. They will likely want to buy it back to get it off the market. As would PCGS.
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>There it is. The bottom line is that MY opinion of a coin is all that matters to me--not anyone else's. >>
..............until it's time to sell that coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Now, if I suspect coin doctoring, coin nursing, coin con, or any other numismatic malpractice, I just pop the top on my handy Torts-To-Go "Counsel in a Can" and out pops Larry Mason complete with preprinted pleadings and summary judgement forms.
It makes me feel soooo safe.