The foremost professional guild of numismatics I would think should have the responsibility to ensure that its members not commit fraud, and with coin doctoring being such a hot topic, I would think an active investigation warranted. Fear of "McCarthyism" is a logical theoretical issue, but not valid enough to justify effectively ignoring a real problem that already exists, any more than leaving the window up in the parked car with the baby in it is a good idea in the middle of July on the off chance the infant might get cold.
Improperly Cleaned, Our passion for numismatics is Genuine! Now featuring correct spelling.
<< <i>It's not up to dealers of coins to police dealers of coins, it's up to the _____ to police dealers of coins?
Fill in the blank... >>
Law enforcement agency's
I read this post and the second comment makes the case. Fraud is a crime it is handled very well by our state or federaly funded
law enforcement. Forming a "neighborhood watch" should be the goal of the PNG.
When a doctor submits a coin to a TPG that has been doctored that should be fraud. As one member said coin doctoring is counterfeiting, which is to defraud the public. No less of a crime then counterfeiting $100 bills.
Law enforcement has the power and tools to investigate.
Counterfeit TPG holders should be handled the same way.
The PNG is right in voting against enforcing or defining a "Coin Doctor" amendment. It has the language in the bylaws now.
It is a federal or state crime to perpetrate fraud. A few coin doctors doing jail time will clean up the situation quickly.
If they are PNG members they might not want pay there dues in the Big House. Or PNG has to prove nothing to expell them, if the courts
find them guilty of fraud.
Think outside the box . Coin collector for 45 years
I think the PNG should step up to the plate and declare a moratorium on all dreck coins. They can throw in all putz coins, too. Never mind that they can't define those terms in any meaningful way that would permit for non-discriminatory enforcement. Just ask me, I'll tell them when a coin is a dreck and a putz. Of course, I'll require a modest fee for my services, but that's just to defray expenses.
The definition of "the perfect coin" is continually moved by those who not only make a living in the hobby but also create policy regarding it, so how could you expect those same people to make policy that might effect their bottom line somewhere down the road. This week toners, even some that are AT but "market acceptable", are all the rage, next week 200 year old blast white silver coins that have no doubt been dipped are the thing that dreams are made of, and the week after that it's something altogether different. The same coins continually circle in this cesspool of numismatic folly, coveted one day and reviled the next based on the skewed opinions of those who make their living buying and selling them. In my opinion, the hobby is rotting from the inside out and the importance given to certain "players" or dealer's opinions by others who stand to make money by giving that importance to those opinions is one of the biggest causes of this rot.
Everybody professes to love the rare and elusive "original" coin. Why not add a designation to all coins on the holder if they stray from the original turd-brown toning and let the collectors decide what they want. You might get a proof morgan with a "dipped" designation or a rainbow toned coin with the "recent album toning" label, but if that's what you like collecting, then it should all be good, right? It's only when you add the judgement of what's worthy of "big money" into the mix that you get all the problems. When the "big money" target is constantly moving based on dealer inventory, it's even more confusing for the sheep that try and keep up with collecting trends.
<< <i>....Everybody professes to love the rare and elusive "original" coin. . >>
That's not necessarily true. Many of us prefer "original" coins, some, or even most of the time, but feel that certain examples are down-right ugly, and avoid them. And others prefer toned or color-free coins, whether original or not.
<< <i>The definition of "the perfect coin" is continually moved by those who not only make a living in the hobby but also create policy regarding it, so how could you expect those same people to make policy that might effect their bottom line somewhere down the road. This week toners, even some that are AT but "market acceptable", are all the rage, next week 200 year old blast white silver coins that have no doubt been dipped are the thing that dreams are made of, and the week after that it's something altogether different. The same coins continually circle in this cesspool of numismatic folly, coveted one day and reviled the next based on the skewed opinions of those who make their living buying and selling them. In my opinion, the hobby is rotting from the inside out and the importance given to certain "players" or dealer's opinions by others who stand to make money by giving that importance to those opinions is one of the biggest causes of this rot.
Everybody professes to love the rare and elusive "original" coin. Why not add a designation to all coins on the holder if they stray from the original turd-brown toning and let the collectors decide what they want. You might get a proof morgan with a "dipped" designation or a rainbow toned coin with the "recent album toning" label, but if that's what you like collecting, then it should all be good, right? It's only when you add the judgement of what's worthy of "big money" into the mix that you get all the problems. When the "big money" target is constantly moving based on dealer inventory, it's even more confusing for the sheep that try and keep up with collecting trends. >>
And that's the expanded version of what I was trying to say.
I've read about every post war Numismatist. People would be suprised at which ANA members who have either been suspended or expelled for misdeeds(including altering coins).
Some of those previously suspended members are even prominent contributors right here, right now on this PCGS forum.
This current problem will never be solved to everyones satisfaction.
Seems like policing doctors ultimately falls on the shoulders of the collector. We are not supposed to expose them here, but we can certainly share this information by e-mail---------------------BigE
The PNG is just another example of how and why self-regulation of a trade / profession doesn't work.
If the scams were big enough, some (more) people would wind up in the big house.. There would also either be Federal regulations governing the conduct of coin dealers, or else existing laws regarding fraud and breach of contract might finally be enforced to a greater extent in the numismatic arena.
"Vou invadir o Nordeste, "Seu cabra da peste, "Sou Mangueira......."
Truecollector 70 - I used to own that coin - the image is from the old Goldberg auction - happy see it! I bought it from DLRC which showed a dead flat glossy brown photo - when I found the old auction photo I bought it immediately. Smoeone mentioned "self policing" - how has that worked out on these forums?
Comments
<< <i>It's not up to dealers of coins to police dealers of coins, it's up to the _____ to police dealers of coins?
Fill in the blank... >>
Law enforcement agency's
I read this post and the second comment makes the case. Fraud is a crime it is handled very well by our state or federaly funded
law enforcement. Forming a "neighborhood watch" should be the goal of the PNG.
When a doctor submits a coin to a TPG that has been doctored that should be fraud. As one member said coin doctoring is counterfeiting, which is to defraud the public. No less of a crime then counterfeiting $100 bills.
Law enforcement has the power and tools to investigate.
Counterfeit TPG holders should be handled the same way.
The PNG is right in voting against enforcing or defining a "Coin Doctor" amendment. It has the language in the bylaws now.
It is a federal or state crime to perpetrate fraud. A few coin doctors doing jail time will clean up the situation quickly.
If they are PNG members they might not want pay there dues in the Big House. Or PNG has to prove nothing to expell them, if the courts
find them guilty of fraud.
Everybody professes to love the rare and elusive "original" coin. Why not add a designation to all coins on the holder if they stray from the original turd-brown toning and let the collectors decide what they want. You might get a proof morgan with a "dipped" designation or a rainbow toned coin with the "recent album toning" label, but if that's what you like collecting, then it should all be good, right? It's only when you add the judgement of what's worthy of "big money" into the mix that you get all the problems. When the "big money" target is constantly moving based on dealer inventory, it's even more confusing for the sheep that try and keep up with collecting trends.
<< <i>....Everybody professes to love the rare and elusive "original" coin. . >>
That's not necessarily true. Many of us prefer "original" coins, some, or even most of the time, but feel that certain examples are down-right ugly, and avoid them. And others prefer toned or color-free coins, whether original or not.
<< <i>The definition of "the perfect coin" is continually moved by those who not only make a living in the hobby but also create policy regarding it, so how could you expect those same people to make policy that might effect their bottom line somewhere down the road. This week toners, even some that are AT but "market acceptable", are all the rage, next week 200 year old blast white silver coins that have no doubt been dipped are the thing that dreams are made of, and the week after that it's something altogether different. The same coins continually circle in this cesspool of numismatic folly, coveted one day and reviled the next based on the skewed opinions of those who make their living buying and selling them. In my opinion, the hobby is rotting from the inside out and the importance given to certain "players" or dealer's opinions by others who stand to make money by giving that importance to those opinions is one of the biggest causes of this rot.
Everybody professes to love the rare and elusive "original" coin. Why not add a designation to all coins on the holder if they stray from the original turd-brown toning and let the collectors decide what they want. You might get a proof morgan with a "dipped" designation or a rainbow toned coin with the "recent album toning" label, but if that's what you like collecting, then it should all be good, right? It's only when you add the judgement of what's worthy of "big money" into the mix that you get all the problems. When the "big money" target is constantly moving based on dealer inventory, it's even more confusing for the sheep that try and keep up with collecting trends. >>
And that's the expanded version of what I was trying to say.
Some of those previously suspended members are even prominent contributors right here, right now on this PCGS forum.
This current problem will never be solved to everyones satisfaction.
If the scams were big enough, some (more) people would wind up in the big house.. There would also either be Federal regulations governing the conduct of coin dealers, or else existing laws regarding fraud and breach of contract might finally be enforced to a greater extent in the numismatic arena.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>
"Not ever good man is a Mason, and not every single Mason is a good man"
Buying top quality Seated Dimes in Gem BU and Proof.
Buying great coins - monster eye appeal only.
Truecollector 70 - I used to own that coin - the image is from the old Goldberg auction - happy see it! I bought it from DLRC which showed a dead flat glossy brown photo - when I found the old auction photo I bought it immediately.
Smoeone mentioned "self policing" - how has that worked out on these forums?
Eric
Edited to spell "worked out" correctly