PNG drops expanded definition of coin doctoring
Frankcoins
Posts: 4,569 ✭✭✭
The Jan 31 Coin World reports that the Professional Numismatists Guild has dropped the expanded definition of "coin doctoring" that was adopted just six months ago. The vote was 45 to 2, with only Steve Ivy and Mike Fuljenz supporting the stricter language. John Feigenbaum stated "This is McCarthyism - It's not PNG's torch to bear, to decide who is a coin doctor and who is not."
Just incredible.
Just incredible.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
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Comments
Fill in the blank...
<< <i>It's not up to dealers of coins to police dealers of coins, it's up to the _____ to police dealers of coins?
Fill in the blank... >>
Federal Government Coin Czar
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I think an open minded approach to "coin doctoring" is necessary.
It is an easy trap to get into to think this is an issue of morality. Those who are against "coin doctoring" and those who aren't.
It is easy to get self righteous......"Oh, I'm a better person (or you should buy coins from me) because I think coin doctoring is wrong......and so and so thinks it's ok to defraud people.....because they aren't against coin doctoring......"
Should taking a coin that have problems and making it permanently better (taking all things into consideration) be a bad thing?
<< <i>
<< <i>It's not up to dealers of coins to police dealers of coins, it's up to the _____ to police dealers of coins?
Fill in the blank... >>
Federal Government Coin Czar >>
It's going to be something like that if the big dealers fail in "self regulation" with tough - and enforced - ethics policies.
The excesses of the late 1980s - selling overgraded crap through boiler room high pressure sales pitches, guarantees of
100% buybacks or guaranteed rates of appreciation, investment plans that were Ponzi schemes - ALMOST resulted in
the government declaring coins as SECURITIES, meaning every dealer must be registered with the SEC, issue a
prospectus on coin sales, reveal his cost and profit margins, etc.
<< <i>First of all this isn't directed at anyone including PNG or any people. These are just my general thougts.
I think an open minded approach to "coin doctoring" is necessary.
It is an easy trap to get into to think this is an issue of morality. Those who are against "coin doctoring" and those who aren't.
It is easy to get self righteous......"Oh, I'm a better person (or you should buy coins from me) because I think coin doctoring is wrong......and so and so thinks it's ok to defraud people.....because they aren't against coin doctoring......"
Should taking a coin that have problems and making it permanently better (taking all things into consideration) be a bad thing? >>
Here is the wording that was added 6 months ago, and deleted at the FUN show meeting
Coin doctoring is the action of a person or the enabling of another to alter a coin’s surface or appearance, usually to diminish or conceal defects, and thereby represent the condition or value of a coin as being superior to its actual condition or value. Among the practices defined as doctoring are effacing hairlines by polishing or manipulating the surfaces of proof coins, applying substances to the surface of coins to hide marks and defects, hiding marks or otherwise changing the appearance of a coin by adding toning, adding chemicals or otherwise manipulating the surfaces to create “cameo” frost on the devices of proof coins, and making a coin appear more fully struck by re-engraving portions of the devices, such as re-engraving bands on the reverse of a Mercury Dime or adding head detail to a Standing Liberty Quarter. Altering dates or mintmarks or other struck portions of a coin to make it appear to be from a mint date or type other than that of origin, and altering business strike coins to make them resemble proof issues are also examples of coin doctoring. This definition is not intended to be all-inclusive, but only illustrative of forms of coin doctoring.
The PNG has rules in place that concern fraud. Coin doctoring constitutes fraud. If you have been a victim of a PNG dealer that has sold you a doctored coin, please contact Robert Brueggeman, executive director, and he will get you a proper remedy.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
However, I will say that the "expanded definition" was very sloppily worded and - given that the rules pertaining to coin doctoring were not clearly defined - largely irrelevant. So, if the only options were for members to keep or to remove the new coin doctoring language from the PNG bylaws, I would have voted to remove it.
That said, it still makes sense for the PNG to revisit the issue, because the integrity of our product is of paramount importance.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
members to have changed there minds there had to be a reason! I think that there may of been some legal pressure? That is
just pure opinion I have no affiliations or insight.
<< <i>Just curious, but any board members part of that vote? >>
Yes, I was there, Julian was there as well. I am sure there were others but that is all I can think of for now.
<< <i>First of all this isn't directed at anyone including PNG or any people. These are just my general thougts.
I think an open minded approach to "coin doctoring" is necessary.
It is an easy trap to get into to think this is an issue of morality. Those who are against "coin doctoring" and those who aren't.
It is easy to get self righteous......"Oh, I'm a better person (or you should buy coins from me) because I think coin doctoring is wrong......and so and so thinks it's ok to defraud people.....because they aren't against coin doctoring......"
Should taking a coin that have problems and making it permanently better (taking all things into consideration) be a bad thing? >>
You missed confession... that was yesteday!
<< <i> That said, it still makes sense for the PNG to revisit the issue, because the integrity of our product is of paramount importance. >>
Couldn't be said any better. Survival of any business demands it.
<< <i>This was discussed in another thread about Legend Topics.
The PNG has rules in place that concern fraud. Coin doctoring constitutes fraud. If you have been a victim of a PNG dealer that has sold you a doctored coin, please contact Robert Brueggeman, executive director, and he will get you a proper remedy. >>
Julian, what about the PCGS claims/allegations against one or more PNG members? What is being done about that?
<< <i>The PNG has rules in place that concern fraud. Coin doctoring constitutes fraud. If you have been a victim of a PNG dealer that has sold you a doctored coin, please contact Robert Brueggeman, executive director, and he will get you a proper remedy. >>
That is absolutely unacceptable. Instead of banning their members from doctoring coins, or SELLING doctored coins, it's up to the buyer of
a coin to CATCH the fact that he has been sold a doctored coin, and then file a complaint.
<< <i>The problem is that there are too many stupid people especially here who are blind to reality and are playing into the hands of the people perpetrating fraud. People are forcing the PNG to define something that is not definable. You have people taking extremist views saying that anything that is not original with a coin means it was doctored. That is stupid. What we need to focus on is outright fraud, moving and adding metal in such a way that is meant to deceive (and adding the caveat that it only applies to coins of a certain age or newer). Plain and simple. All the garbage about dipped coins being doctored is what is playing into the hands of the defendants from the PCGS case. This is because yes, all coin dealers have dipped coins and there are thousands of coins that have been dipped have CAC stickers. If we focus on the issues not mob stupidity, something might get done. But then again, who am I to advocate logic. >>
How to win friends...
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem is that there are too many stupid people especially here who are blind to reality and are playing into the hands of the people perpetrating fraud. People are forcing the PNG to define something that is not definable. You have people taking extremist views saying that anything that is not original with a coin means it was doctored. That is stupid. What we need to focus on is outright fraud, moving and adding metal in such a way that is meant to deceive (and adding the caveat that it only applies to coins of a certain age or newer). Plain and simple. All the garbage about dipped coins being doctored is what is playing into the hands of the defendants from the PCGS case. This is because yes, all coin dealers have dipped coins and there are thousands of coins that have been dipped have CAC stickers. If we focus on the issues not mob stupidity, something might get done. But then again, who am I to advocate logic. >>
How to win friends...
He's spot on.
<< <i>The problem is that there are too many stupid people especially here who are blind to reality and are playing into the hands of the people perpetrating fraud. People are forcing the PNG to define something that is not definable. You have people taking extremist views saying that anything that is not original with a coin means it was doctored. That is stupid. What we need to focus on is outright fraud, moving and adding metal in such a way that is meant to deceive (and adding the caveat that it only applies to coins of a certain age or newer). Plain and simple. All the garbage about dipped coins being doctored is what is playing into the hands of the defendants from the PCGS case. This is because yes, all coin dealers have dipped coins and there are thousands of coins that have been dipped have CAC stickers. If we focus on the issues not mob stupidity, something might get done. But then again, who am I to advocate logic. >>
OK, I'll ask you the same question I asked Julian- what about the PCGS claims/allegations against one or more PNG members (which includes moving and adding metal in such a way that is meant to deceive) What is being done about that?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem is that there are too many stupid people especially here who are blind to reality and are playing into the hands of the people perpetrating fraud. People are forcing the PNG to define something that is not definable. You have people taking extremist views saying that anything that is not original with a coin means it was doctored. That is stupid. What we need to focus on is outright fraud, moving and adding metal in such a way that is meant to deceive (and adding the caveat that it only applies to coins of a certain age or newer). Plain and simple. All the garbage about dipped coins being doctored is what is playing into the hands of the defendants from the PCGS case. This is because yes, all coin dealers have dipped coins and there are thousands of coins that have been dipped have CAC stickers. If we focus on the issues not mob stupidity, something might get done. But then again, who am I to advocate logic. >>
How to win friends...
He's spot on. >>
My point was, calling people stupid probably isn't the best approach if you expect to effect change (it's a little elitest too). As a matter of fact, calling someone stupid in the military will get you a free trip to a Court Martial; loss of pay and probably even unemployed. I'm just saying...
<< <i>
Triplets are soooo HOT!
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem is that there are too many stupid people especially here who are blind to reality and are playing into the hands of the people perpetrating fraud. People are forcing the PNG to define something that is not definable. You have people taking extremist views saying that anything that is not original with a coin means it was doctored. That is stupid. What we need to focus on is outright fraud, moving and adding metal in such a way that is meant to deceive (and adding the caveat that it only applies to coins of a certain age or newer). Plain and simple. All the garbage about dipped coins being doctored is what is playing into the hands of the defendants from the PCGS case. This is because yes, all coin dealers have dipped coins and there are thousands of coins that have been dipped have CAC stickers. If we focus on the issues not mob stupidity, something might get done. But then again, who am I to advocate logic. >>
How to win friends...
He's spot on. >>
Even if you think he's spot on (which i don't), I don't see the PNG focusing on anything pertaining to coin doctoring, and that includes "outright fraud".
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem is that there are too many stupid people especially here who are blind to reality and are playing into the hands of the people perpetrating fraud. People are forcing the PNG to define something that is not definable. You have people taking extremist views saying that anything that is not original with a coin means it was doctored. That is stupid. What we need to focus on is outright fraud, moving and adding metal in such a way that is meant to deceive (and adding the caveat that it only applies to coins of a certain age or newer). Plain and simple. All the garbage about dipped coins being doctored is what is playing into the hands of the defendants from the PCGS case. This is because yes, all coin dealers have dipped coins and there are thousands of coins that have been dipped have CAC stickers. If we focus on the issues not mob stupidity, something might get done. But then again, who am I to advocate logic. >>
How to win friends...
He's spot on. >>
My point was, calling people stupid probably isn't the best approach if you expect to effect change (it's a little elitest too). As a matter of fact, calling someone stupid in the military will get you a free trip to a Court Martial; loss of pay and probably even unemployed. I'm just saying... >>
But the gist of his message is accurate, just how much "doctoring" IS acceptable? We all agree that making full head standing liberty's using a high tech exacto knife is fraud, and dipping is industry accepted. I doubt you could build a consensus on what degree of alteration is acceptable.
<< <i>
Here is the wording that was added 6 months ago, and deleted at the FUN show meeting
Coin doctoring is the action of a person or the enabling of another to alter a coin’s surface or appearance, usually to diminish or conceal defects, and thereby represent the condition or value of a coin as being superior to its actual condition or value. Among the practices defined as doctoring are effacing hairlines by polishing or manipulating the surfaces of proof coins, applying substances to the surface of coins to hide marks and defects, hiding marks or otherwise changing the appearance of a coin by adding toning, adding chemicals or otherwise manipulating the surfaces to create “cameo” frost on the devices of proof coins, and making a coin appear more fully struck by re-engraving portions of the devices, such as re-engraving bands on the reverse of a Mercury Dime or adding head detail to a Standing Liberty Quarter. Altering dates or mintmarks or other struck portions of a coin to make it appear to be from a mint date or type other than that of origin, and altering business strike coins to make them resemble proof issues are also examples of coin doctoring. This definition is not intended to be all-inclusive, but only illustrative of forms of coin doctoring.
>>
For those who supported dropping this definition of 'coin doctoring', what was unacceptable?
I can't see anything in this statement that should be problematic for an ethical coin dealer, but maybe I am missing something?
<< <i>
<< <i>The problem is that there are too many stupid people especially here who are blind to reality and are playing into the hands of the people perpetrating fraud. People are forcing the PNG to define something that is not definable. You have people taking extremist views saying that anything that is not original with a coin means it was doctored. That is stupid. What we need to focus on is outright fraud, moving and adding metal in such a way that is meant to deceive (and adding the caveat that it only applies to coins of a certain age or newer). Plain and simple. All the garbage about dipped coins being doctored is what is playing into the hands of the defendants from the PCGS case. This is because yes, all coin dealers have dipped coins and there are thousands of coins that have been dipped have CAC stickers. If we focus on the issues not mob stupidity, something might get done. But then again, who am I to advocate logic. >>
OK, I'll ask you the same question I asked Julian- what about the PCGS claims/allegations against one or more PNG members (which includes moving and adding metal in such a way that is meant to deceive) What is being done about that? >>
Show me the complaint that has been issued to the PNG and the proof that the specific individuals perpetrated the fraud. I would like to see this because people who commit fraud should be removed. The fact remains there is no formal complaint (at least that I have seen) and no evidence presented.
<< <i>
Show me the complaint that has been issued to the PNG and the proof that the specific individuals perpetrated the fraud. I would like to see this because people who commit fraud should be removed. The fact remains there is no formal complaint (at least that I have seen) and no evidence presented. >>
If this is truly the standard the PNG applies, then i have lost all respect for them. This is very reminiscent of the tobacco industry lawyers: Prove cigarettes caused cancer to you and we will do something.
If PCGS would file a complaint with PNG instead of posturing in court, the PNG could act on that. Otherwise, if you suspend the dealers you'll just get sued. What point would that serve?
Remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I really don't see them taking any action to change mine. Luckily the majority of PNG dealers don't deal in areas I collect, or I would have to avoid them like the plague.
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
<< <i>
<< <i>
Show me the complaint that has been issued to the PNG and the proof that the specific individuals perpetrated the fraud. I would like to see this because people who commit fraud should be removed. The fact remains there is no formal complaint (at least that I have seen) and no evidence presented. >>
If this is truly the standard the PNG applies, then i have lost all respect for them. This is very reminiscent of the tobacco industry lawyers: Prove cigarettes caused cancer to you and we will do something. >>
I agree.
PNG: You are a part of the problem. Question is--do you want to be a part of the solution?
Time to make up your mind.
I can't see anything in this statement that should be problematic for an ethical coin dealer, but maybe I am missing something?
First, regardless of how it's worded, there's the question of whether or not a definition of coin doctoring belongs in the organization's bylaws at all. (And please don't assume that eliminating the definition means that PNG is in favor of coin doctoring. It doesn't.)
That said, there's plenty wrong with the definition. Here's my revision, which I provided to PNG at their request. If you take the time to carefully compare it to the original PNG text, you'll see the problems.
"Coin doctoring is the action of a person to deceptively alter a coin's surface or appearance, usually to diminish or conceal defects, for the purpose of increasing the price at which it can be sold. Among the practices defined as doctoring are effacing hairlines by polishing or otherwise manipulating the surfaces of a coin, applying substances or artificially accelerated toning to the surface of a coin to hide marks and defects, adding chemicals or otherwise manipulating the surfaces to create cameo frost on the devices of a proof coin, altering a business strike coin to make it resemble a proof coin, and re-engraving a coin to make it appear to be either a higher grade and/or more fully struck. This definition is not intended to be all-inclusive but only illustrative of forms of coin doctoring."
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>For those who supported dropping this definition of 'coin doctoring', what was unacceptable?
I can't see anything in this statement that should be problematic for an ethical coin dealer, but maybe I am missing something?
First, regardless of how it's worded, there's the question of whether or not a definition of coin doctoring belongs in the organization's bylaws at all. (And please don't assume that eliminating the definition means that PNG is in favor of coin doctoring. It doesn't.)
That said, there's plenty wrong with the definition. Here's my revision, which I provided to PNG at their request. If you take the time to carefully compare it to the original PNG text, you'll see the problems.
"Coin doctoring is the action of a person to deceptively alter a coin's surface or appearance, usually to diminish or conceal defects, for the purpose of increasing the price at which it can be sold. Among the practices defined as doctoring are effacing hairlines by polishing or otherwise manipulating the surfaces of a coin, applying substances or artificially accelerated toning to the surface of a coin to hide marks and defects, adding chemicals or otherwise manipulating the surfaces to create cameo frost on the devices of a proof coin, altering a business strike coin to make it resemble a proof coin, and re-engraving a coin to make it appear to be either a higher grade and/or more fully struck. This definition is not intended to be all-inclusive but only illustrative of forms of coin doctoring." >>
The problem with a defined definition is that it can be too restrictive or too loose... either you break the "law" by allowing coins that can be construed as doctored because it's too restrictive or because there are too many loopholes because it's too loose. Relying on a complaint of fraud is unlikely because you can't have a definition of coin doctoring. The PNG is a dealers only organization, which means they have to self-police... which is also unlikely. The good intentions of a founding group can be and will be diluted the longer an organization remains after the death of the founding members.
Lets work on the disgraceful PNG membership attitude where is ok to that cheat and mess with coins while KNOWINGLY commiting fraud (decieiving the grading services).
Hey PNG, I have complaint! Have the membership who doctor coins STOP!
I am not convinced that that is the attitude of anything close to the majority of PNG members. And frankly, I find your characterization of the PNG membership offensive, obnoxious, reckless and seemingly ignorant. (I say "seemingly" because I suspect you know better.)
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thank you!
Dave
<< <i> Lets work on the disgraceful PNG membership attitude where is ok to that cheat and mess with coins while KNOWINGLY commiting fraud
I am not convinced that that is the attitude of anything close to the majority of PNG members. And frankly, I find your characterization of the PNG membership offensive, obnoxious, reckless and seemingly ignorant. (I say "seemingly" because I suspect you know better.) >>
While Dave E's characterization of the PNG may be offensive to you and others, you must admit that they (PNG leaders) have brought this attitude upon themselves with their official action, or lack of action as the case may be. The question still is---part of the problem or part of the solution?
I don't see PNG as "part of the problem". As to whether or not they will be "part of the solution", the jury is still out.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>While Dave E's characterization of the PNG may be offensive to you and others, you must admit that they (PNG leaders) have brought this attitude upon themselves with their official action, or lack of action as the case may be. The question still is---part of the problem or part of the solution?
I don't see PNG as "part of the problem". As to whether or not they will be "part of the solution", the jury is still out. >>
I like speaking for others... I think the implication is, that PNGs inaction allows the doctors to continue status quo.
Frankcoins, JCMhouston, AngryTurtle, mrcoin3, coinguy1,
<< <i>
<< <i>This was discussed in another thread about Legend Topics.
The PNG has rules in place that concern fraud. Coin doctoring constitutes fraud. If you have been a victim of a PNG dealer that has sold you a doctored coin, please contact Robert Brueggeman, executive director, and he will get you a proper remedy. >>
Julian, what about the PCGS claims/allegations against one or more PNG members? What is being done about that? >>
I would think that PCGS could make a complaint to the PNG, Mark, but I am unaware that one has been filed.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
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I fail to see from afar as I am how the PNG is supposed to deter coin doctoring. That's kind of like demanding that AAA stop all auto accidents or Planned Parenthood stop all unplanned births. Without seeing their by laws or mission statement it seems like they are just what they say they are. A guild. A formal association of people with similar interests. Guild.
And again, if I own a coin and I want to shake and bake it, dip it, laser it, put it on the railroad tracks, I can do that. I can even put that coin up for sale afterwards and I've violated no law. (within reason.......you can really dream up some extreme examples here).
For me the sticky point becomes entering into a contract with the grading companies. Their Terms of Agreement are that you're not to submit knowingly any doctored coins and they have a buy back policy for those that slip through the cracks. The contract protects them and I think they are well within their rights to do this.
But I'm not so sure what importance a group such as the PNG holds here. Does anyone NEED them to buy or sell coins? Is it a requirement to belong to PNG? Do they control the hobby in any aspect? How can one expect a Guild to enforce an industry?
As a collector of coins I sure wouldn't want a coin that had been knowingly tampered with although I have some coins in my collection that could surely use some help but the reality is the ones that do probably aren't worth the trouble.
All I know for sure is this makes for some interesting and lively discussion that is fun to watch around here. Certainly there are some very strong opinions. But my thought is that the only way to defeat this is through technology.
Certainly a Guild of experts in a hobby could determine some method or methods of detection or at least have some input on the subject. I think high tech is the only solution.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
<< <i>It certainly appears to me that the PNG is a group to be avoided. I'm really tired of hearing the same old excuses trotted out about how honorable the PNG dealers are and how no complaint has ever been filed against a PNG dealer, and they can't define what doctoring is. To be honest I wouldn't believe them is they claimed the earth was round at this point, it seems like it's a just a good old boys club out to protect their profit margins however they can.
Remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I really don't see them taking any action to change mine. Luckily the majority of PNG dealers don't deal in areas I collect, or I would have to avoid them like the plague. >>
This seems like a pretty silly statement. Would you rather deal with someone that is responsible to no one?
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Spoken like a true PNG relic!
Seems everything I have read of late points out the PNG has no responsiblity unless a complaint is made. So as a few bad apples rape coins, until a complaint is made, the PNG has no problem.
The PNG is totally
<< <i>
<< <i>It certainly appears to me that the PNG is a group to be avoided. I'm really tired of hearing the same old excuses trotted out about how honorable the PNG dealers are and how no complaint has ever been filed against a PNG dealer, and they can't define what doctoring is. To be honest I wouldn't believe them is they claimed the earth was round at this point, it seems like it's a just a good old boys club out to protect their profit margins however they can.
Remember, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and I really don't see them taking any action to change mine. Luckily the majority of PNG dealers don't deal in areas I collect, or I would have to avoid them like the plague. >>
This seems like a pretty silly statement. Would you rather deal with someone that is responsible to no one? >>
Absolutely... I appreciate people most that have free will.
Edited to add: Would you rather make a bilateral decision between two parties, or involve a third-party gamble... a Judge? I would always choose to participate in my own decisions rather than to give them away to a third-party. Before someone goes on the "Well, PCGS is a third-party!" I'm still making my own unilateral decision to agree or disagree with their opinion of grade before I purchase their slab AND they aren't an organization; they're a business.
Do you really expect us to believe that no formal or informal complaints have been filed with any members of PNG regarding coin doctors? Really? If there is truly this much distrust in the PNG... how can it be effective? The question is "Can they rebuild their trust or is it a lost cause?"
http://macrocoins.com
<< <i>It's not up to dealers of coins to police dealers of coins, it's up to the _____ to police dealers of coins?
Fill in the blank... >>
IMHO, I would fill in the blank as follows, "it's up to the COWARDS of PNG to police dealers of coins."
So much for my buying anything soon from David Lawrence.
<< <i>This was discussed in another thread about Legend Topics.
The PNG has rules in place that concern fraud. Coin doctoring constitutes fraud. If you have been a victim of a PNG dealer that has sold you a doctored coin, please contact Robert Brueggeman, executive director, and he will get you a proper remedy. >>
Julian, we're "neighbors" in some very real senses, as you know. You also know the respect I have in you. However, on this we disagree. PNG, as a "leadership/exclusive" group, IMHO, PNG should be taking a strong and distinctly public leadership role on this. PNG is supposed to be the "Mt. Olympus" of coin dealer organizations. As such, more, much more is expected by all of you, individually and collectively as an organization, on this, I believe.
<< <i>
Ok, which dealers really are: Moe, Larry and Curly? (Shemp had more brains than it seems PNG as a collective group does on this matter, IMHO)