What is it about colonials and colonial coin collectors?
MidLifeCrisis
Posts: 10,540 ✭✭✭✭✭
Taking a very unscientific survey of threads about colonials compared to other popular thread topics on this forum, it's easy to reach the conclusion that colonials are just not very popular.
And yet, outside of the context of this forum, colonials represent a popular and significant segment of the collecting community - even with their own club and conventions.
I think colonials are some of the most challenging coins that can be collected. Even our own Longacre has said for years that he is "deathly afraid of colonials". I guess many collectors don't like "challenging" hobbies - especially when those hobbies cost money. I get that, but most collector-grade colonials are really inexpensive compared to other, more popular coins.
Also, the colonial coin collector is indeed a special breed - even more of a numismatic odd duck than the typical collector of US federal early copper.
What is it about colonials and colonial coin collectors that make them seem like the "red headed step-children" of numismatics?
And yet, outside of the context of this forum, colonials represent a popular and significant segment of the collecting community - even with their own club and conventions.
I think colonials are some of the most challenging coins that can be collected. Even our own Longacre has said for years that he is "deathly afraid of colonials". I guess many collectors don't like "challenging" hobbies - especially when those hobbies cost money. I get that, but most collector-grade colonials are really inexpensive compared to other, more popular coins.
Also, the colonial coin collector is indeed a special breed - even more of a numismatic odd duck than the typical collector of US federal early copper.
What is it about colonials and colonial coin collectors that make them seem like the "red headed step-children" of numismatics?
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Comments
lol thats funny
I like colonials , i wouldn't say i collect them but i do have a few in my collection.I'd add more given the chance.
They are kind of like, in the shopping mall of life, the piano & organ store.
However, if it became widely known that I sold a colonial (a ________________ token in 66RB, I believe or was it 65RD?) to a forum member about 8-10 years ago for less than 9K that is now worth around 50-60K, they might become more popular.
(And the buyer is more than welcome to correct my facts and elaborate if desired.)
There's really no single "series"... which coins do you collect? If you do specialize in a "series", there's not ONE impossible to find coin, but several impossible to find coins. Who wants a few examples of inexpensive "common" colonials? We're collectors, we thrive in completing our collections.
I don't own a Colonial, know nothing about them, but if you want to collect them then have at it. You have always been nice to me here on the Forum and that is all I can judge you by. Your choice in collecting doesn't make you an oddball. It makes you specialzed. One's tastes is their own thing and I will support to the death your right to collect Colonials.
No seriously, is your collecting Colonials any more strange than my collecting Classic Commems or someone else collecting half dimes?
Ron
<< <i>Are they US coins or are they World coins? Which ones are REALLY US coins... the ones listed in Redbook, or ONLY the ones that actually circulated in the US (how can one determine this criteria), etc.?
There's really no single "series"... which coins do you collect? If you do specialize in a "series", there's not ONE impossible to find coin, but several impossible to find coins. Who wants a few examples of inexpensive "common" colonials? We're collectors, we thrive in completing our collections. >>
And thus you've defined the challenge...But here's some answers to your questions:
Are they US coins or are they World coins?
Yes.
Which ones are REALLY US coins... the ones listed in Redbook, or ONLY the ones that actually circulated in the US (how can one determine this criteria), etc.?
If you have even the slightest interest in early US history, then examining the facts surrounding these coins and coming to your own conclusion about what you consider REALLY US coins can be fascinating and enlightning. You don't need a book to tell you what you should choose to include in a colonial collection any more than you need a book to tell you whether or not you like the 55 DDO Lincoln and consider it part of the Lincoln series.
There's really no single "series"... which coins do you collect?
Of course there are. But, as noted above, they are not necessarily by date and mint-mark. A colonial series - Fugios or New Jersey coppers, for example - are usually collected by die variety.
If you do specialize in a "series", there's not ONE impossible to find coin, but several impossible to find coins.
Well, that's true. But there are stoppers in most federal series too.
Who wants a few examples of inexpensive "common" colonials?
Anyone interested in holding a tangible piece of our early history that could have easily spent time in the pocket of a founding father.
Enjoy the road less traveled. The scenery is much better. You dont need everyone hogging the same road.
I sold most of mine a few years back, still have a few R.6 CT and NJ pieces. I really liked Washington pieces which were mostly technically medals or tokens, not coins. I also like Vermonts but can't afford the rare ones or many nice ones...so I came back to the mainstream...at least for a while.
<< <i>Middie. I think the case is that as a whole, as a series....they are a very specialized coin to collect. But, as a single, representative piece....I think youd be surprised how many general collectors have at least ONE of them, and a very basic understanding of what they are.
Enjoy the road less traveled. The scenery is much better. You dont need everyone hogging the same road. >>
Good points. Less popular = less competition for coins that I want!
But it also means I don't get to talk about my specialty enough on this forum. People roll their eyes.
<< <i>I think colonial collectors are wack-jobs who are too paranoid to participate in forums.
Nah...the rest of you are the wack-jobs!
As the years go by, many numismatists either gravitate towards early copper, including colonials, or books about coins.
some of your pieces have made us DROOL!
This forum is ALL about education. What you know, what you can teach us...and show us, to me that is MUCH more valuable than learning from an ad that I can buy gold for $159 an ounce. At least, I believe you.
<< <i>This thread is worthless w/o pictures..........
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
You know I'm just joking.
Ron
With that being said, I do hope that some day I can save up and get one. I'd be more than happy to get one, well circulated is fine, as long as I can tell what it is, I'm happy!
<< <i>
<< <i>I think colonial collectors are wack-jobs who are too paranoid to participate in forums.
Nah...the rest of you are the wack-jobs!
A rather Manichean view. Denial is a psychological defense often appearing hand in hand with its own saftety valve, projection. Projection is the defense that facilitates staying out of touch with whatever it might be that is bothersome inside ourselves. That's because we project it onto the other guy.
However it might appear to keep us in temporary balance, projection doesn't, in the final analysis, obscure the fact that we are ALL wack-jobs.
This is a generalization that is operationally valid on a statistical basis. But it's a really a continuum.
Colonial collectors, it seems to me, have a lower likelihood of posting here because many of them are still making the transition from quill pens to computer keyboards.
<< <i>A rather Manichean view. Denial is a psychological defense often appearing hand in hand with its own saftety valve, projection. Projection is the defense that facilitates staying out of touch with whatever it might be that is bothersome inside ourselves. That's because we project it onto the other guy.
However it might appear to keep us in temporary balance, projection doesn't, in the final analysis, obscure the fact that we are ALL wack-jobs.
This is a generalization that is operationally valid on a statistical basis. But it's a really a continuum.
Colonial collectors, it seems to me, have a lower likelihood of posting here because many of them are still making the transition from quill pens to computer keyboards.
This is how you bump my thread for the morning crew? Uhh...thanks.
A lot of it may well be the cost of many of the Colonials. One can collect many popular series sans the keys and semi-keys on a modest budget. Not so w/the Colonials. I for one just love them. I usually post on the - gasp - moderns threads. However, by far my favorites are Colonials. I read about them at every opportunity. I seek them out every Balto. show. I go to the Colonial talks at the Balto. show when they have them. I go to Williamsburg just to see the incredible Colonial collection at the DeWitt Wallace Museam. They are just expensive and the ones that I really love (Cont. Currency - not acutally a Colonial I suppose, NE Shillings, Oak and Pine tree.....) are very expensive. I don't know why folks don't post more about them other than that they are, on average, quite expensive to collect.
<< <i>Great post MidLife!!
A lot of it may well be the cost of many of the Colonials. One can collect many popular series sans the keys and semi-keys on a modest budget. Not so w/the Colonials. I for one just love them. I usually post on the - gasp - moderns threads. However, by far my favorites are Colonials. I read about them at every opportunity. I seek them out every Balto. show. I go to the Colonial talks at the Balto. show when they have them. I go to Williamsburg just to see the incredible Colonial collection at the DeWitt Wallace Museam. They are just expensive and the ones that I really love (Cont. Currency - not acutally a Colonial I suppose, NE Shillings, Oak and Pine tree.....) are very expensive. I don't know why folks don't post more about them other than that they are, on average, quite expensive to collect. >>
Thanks Raufus!
I have never thought of colonials as being a very expensive sector of numismatics. There are several colonial types that are relatively inexpensive in lower- and mid-grades. Some types are even relatively inexpensive in high grades. I understand that "relatively inexpensive" means different things to different people...but I'm thinking of the Hibernia types, the Virginia Halfpennies, French Colonies silver and copper pieces, common variety state coinage, common variety Fugios, and a lot of Washingtonia.
Certainly the coins you mentioned - the Continental Currency pieces, NE Shillings - as well as other Massachusetts silver, Higleys, pattern pieces, etc. are out of reach for the average collector, but this is no different than many of the "stoppers" that collectors encounter in Federal series coinage.
Just a different perspective, I suppose. But some of this may be because people develop a perception that most colonials are expensive or are too complicated to learn about or that the potential to get burned is greater when collecting colonials.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>They don't collect dates and mintmarks like the rest of us, which is very suspicious. Clearly, there is something wrong with them.
They are kind of like, in the shopping mall of life, the piano & organ store. >>
Love it!
<< <i>I know it's been a couple of days but...any other thoughts on this topic? >>
Got any in Early Release or First Strike slabs?
RMR: 'Wer, wenn ich schriee, hörte mich denn aus der Engel Ordnungen?'
CJ: 'No one!' [Ain't no angels in the coin biz]
<< <i>Could it be due to the forum culture? It is clear that, in general, this forum emphasizes, uhh, slabs, and coins as financial items compared to historical items. With many colonials being raw, and viewed more as history, many colonial posters have less reason to post here. There's also the issue that they have a couple of busy email lists to use instead, without having to go through pages and pages on Morgans, platinum eagles, and questions as to what slab/sticker combinations are best. >>
I agree. I get the sense that most EAC people don't care all that much about most of the content one finds around here.
Just because we don't see many colonial collectors on these boards doens't mean that colonials are "just not popular". I would love to collect colonials, but they seem difficult to find are quite expensive. Someday maybe...
My big problem is, I don’t like ugly corroded coins, and my grade standards usually run no lower than VF. So the “colonial coins” I do own tend to be better grades with good eye appeal. Those standards exclude a lot of the surviving coins. Primitave minting techques are okay and give the coins character, but environmental damage does not.
Here are a couple of pieces that met my standard.
Oak Tree Shilling
Rosa Americana half penny
Vermont Landscape
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Bill - I'm guessing that Vermont piece wasn't cheap. >>
Actually it wasn't that expensive. I bought it raw back in the 1980s for $400. The heavy hitters didn't like it because the date was weak, and had planchet fissures, which are par for the course on these coins. Color and surfaces count for a lot on these Vermont pieces.
I could have had a really nice one, well centered, on a good planchet in EF, for $1,200 but my friends talked me out of it. I learned after a while to trust my own opinions when it come to buying coins, I've been right a lot more times than I've been wrong.
-They were usually minted poorly, on junky planchets, and the grading on them is all over the board (or so they seem to be unless you are versed in this area of numismatics.)
-People have a hard time deciding what a quality Colonial coin looks like. Most of the colonial coins out there look like they came out of the ground, which turns people off.
-Colonial coins that are nice are VERY VERY expensive in most cases, especially the historically important and interesting ones. The series just doesn't lend itself to the "collector" mindset. Most collectors at least want to have the possibility of completing a set (no matter how remote that possibility is.)
-They are too rare.
-Too esoteric.
-There are too many variables for each issue and series. It confuses many people.
-On top of it all, the information about colonial coins is mostly educated guesses, does anyone really know for sure what coins circulated in the US and which ones did not? NO SIR!
In the end most collectors want something that is challanging yet attainable. Coin collecting is a hobby for most, to be a sucessful Colonial coin collector one one must be more on the obsessive side. I think this is one of the biggest reasons that the Morgan dollar and the Lincoln cent are the most collected coins. It's possible to complete, yet still a challange to get there. Colonial coins are an undefined area of numismaitcs, so the "set" is never complete. For most, that's a deal breaker!
<< <i>I have a fair number of the so-called colonial coins (They include the pre 1776 and post 1776 coins, which are not colonials at all), but I could not see myself going after 300 die varieties of Connecticut cents or some lesser number of New Jersey cents.
My big problem is, I don’t like ugly corroded coins, and my grade standards usually run no lower than VF. So the “colonial coins” I do own tend to be better grades with good eye appeal. Those standards exclude a lot of the surviving coins. Primitave minting techques are okay and give the coins character, but environmental damage does not.
Vermont Landscape
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q320/BillJones_album/Colonial Coins/VTRev.jpg"> >>
Love this Vermont Bill!!!
I haven't heard or seen him post in awhile.
I think he had one or two colonial coins last I remembered
<< <i>Speaking of Colonial Coins, whatever happened to SpaceMonkey?
I haven't heard or seen him post in awhile.
I think he had one or two colonial coins last I remembered
I'm still lurking... been a little bummed lately because I have been slowly selling my collection out of necessity.
So I have not been too jazzed up about reading about the lovely attributes of coins I am having to let go... I'm sure many of you here can understand that!
Once work gets back to full steam I am planning on getting back to it and rebuilding with even more knowledge and excitement.
-sm
The Maddy Rae Collection
CURRENT BST OFFERINGS
Another interesting thread. I think those that postulated that Colonial Collectors don't hang around here much because most collectors including me, usually don't buy coins in slabs and frequently marvel at the magnitude of the grading, attribution and authenticity errors made by the grading services. But I must admit that I have purchased maybe two dozen Colonial Coins in slabs and cracked them out. I have even done this on several occasions where they have been the highest graded coin in the Pop Reports........sometimes by a wide margin.
Also, in buying a coin, I rarely even look at the slab description or grade. I am certain that half the coins I have purchased in slabs, I never did look at the assigned grade or description until after I cracked the coin out to save the blue or green certificate in the slab (Colonial Coin Collectors keep everything about the history of a coin <s>
Secondly, we do have our own chat board on Yahoo though that seems to be getting overrun by discussions of British Counterfeit Halfpennies these days which are interesting....to a point.
But I would also point out that everything goes in cycles and the cycle for Colonials seems to ebb and flow around the availability of these scarce items. If you go back to the late 1800s, every serious Collector from Mickley on had a fair number of Colonials represented in their Collections. Want proof, take a look at just about any auction catalog done by the Chapman Brothers (Heritage of the Era) from say the late 1880s to about 1920. Lot's of Colonails. But starting around 1900 an interesting thing started to happen, just about every noteworthy Colonial Coin began getting scooped up by the Garrett Family, the Holden/Norweb Family, Virgil Brand and Col. EH Green. By the mid 1920s......pooff, they were all gone.
The Brand and Greens holdings largely went to FCC Boyd and then to Ford. Bareford got what Boyd didn't get from Brand holdings and Eric Newman got much of what Green had. So from about 1910 to 1980 there were no meaningful Colonial Coins to collect. Everything was locked away in the Garrett, Norweb, Ford, Bareford and Newman Collections. And thus only the most dedicated of Colonial Collectors (maybe two or three dozen at most) picked up what came out of the woodwork or got by Boyd, Bareford or Norweb.
But then the faucet slowly began to open...first Garrett, then Bareford, then Norweb then Ford.........then "voila"....supply. Likewise you saw Colonial Collectors go from about a dozen early patrons of The Colonial Newsletter to about 400+ active members of C-4. Then Colonial Registry Sets and slowly but surely, Colonial Coins are becoming mainstream collectibles.
I have streamlined history a bit here, but these are the high points of what happened. There are a few mega Colonial Collections still out there largely assembled from the Garrett et. al. sales, but when they go...more supply. And I expect that like Ford, those sales will bring even more collectors into Colonials.
My Two Pence
nova caesarea
<< <i>Hi Guys,
Another interesting thread. I think those that postulated that Colonial Collectors don't hang around here much because most collectors including me, usually don't buy coins in slabs and frequently marvel at the magnitude of the grading, attribution and authenticity errors made by the grading services. But I must admit that I have purchased maybe two dozen Colonial Coins in slabs and cracked them out. I have even done this on several occasions where they have been the highest graded coin in the Pop Reports........sometimes by a wide margin.
Also, in buying a coin, I rarely even look at the slab description or grade. I am certain that half the coins I have purchased in slabs, I never did look at the assigned grade or description until after I cracked the coin out to save the blue or green certificate in the slab (Colonial Coin Collectors keep everything about the history of a coin <s>
Secondly, we do have our own chat board on Yahoo though that seems to be getting overrun by discussions of British Counterfeit Halfpennies these days which are interesting....to a point.
But I would also point out that everything goes in cycles and the cycle for Colonials seems to ebb and flow around the availability of these scarce items. If you go back to the late 1800s, every serious Collector from Mickley on had a fair number of Colonials represented in their Collections. Want proof, take a look at just about any auction catalog done by the Chapman Brothers (Heritage of the Era) from say the late 1880s to about 1920. Lot's of Colonails. But starting around 1900 an interesting thing started to happen, just about every noteworthy Colonial Coin began getting scooped up by the Garrett Family, the Holden/Norweb Family, Virgil Brand and Col. EH Green. By the mid 1920s......pooff, they were all gone.
The Brand and Greens holdings largely went to FCC Boyd and then to Ford. Bareford got what Boyd didn't get from Brand holdings and Eric Newman got much of what Green had. So from about 1910 to 1980 there were no meaningful Colonial Coins to collect. Everything was locked away in the Garrett, Norweb, Ford, Bareford and Newman Collections. And thus only the most dedicated of Colonial Collectors (maybe two or three dozen at most) picked up what came out of the woodwork or got by Boyd, Bareford or Norweb.
But then the faucet slowly began to open...first Garrett, then Bareford, then Norweb then Ford.........then "voila"....supply. Likewise you saw Colonial Collectors go from about a dozen early patrons of The Colonial Newsletter to about 400+ active members of C-4. Then Colonial Registry Sets and slowly but surely, Colonial Coins are becoming mainstream collectibles.
I have streamlined history a bit here, but these are the high points of what happened. There are a few mega Colonial Collections still out there largely assembled from the Garrett et. al. sales, but when they go...more supply. And I expect that like Ford, those sales will bring even more collectors into Colonials.
My Two Pence
nova caesarea >>
Great post! Thanks for the perspective, novacaesarea!
<< <i>Why does NovaCaesarea have a Fugio icon instead of a New Jersey copper
If you are a member of the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4) in good standing and you know the secret handshake and password, then maybe he'll tell you...but only after you correctly attribute 75 different varieties of Connecticut coppers. (There are more that 355 die combinations, with at least 126 type varieties having 26 distinct bust styles made by at least six different mints.)
<< <i>I am member in good standing of the C4, but what is this "secret handshake" you speak of? >>
Ahh Grasshopper, you clearly have not yet advanced to the appropriate level to be given access to certain knowledge.
You may ask again in 5 years.
Plus I am 63 and soooooooooo far into dimes........I think it is too late to start in a different direction.
But please don't stop posting threads about colonials....I love to see them and read threads about them.
<< <i>I don't collect colonials, but think they are really neat. I don't know enough about them and you don't see that many around to buy. And they are really pricey.
Plus I am 63 and soooooooooo far into dimes........I think it is too late to start in a different direction.
But please don't stop posting threads about colonials....I love to see them and read threads about them. >>
Thanks! I won't stop posting about them.
And, by the way, you could sell a dime or two and buy a colonial...you might get hooked!
Well..........I have been collecting Colonials for a while but I started with New Jersey Coppers....hence nova caesarea. I have since branched out and collect a little bit of everything here and there. When I joined this Board, they wanted you to pick an icon and they had a few available to pick from. There it was, an American Congress Fugio. It's a coin that had great appeal to me as by then my collecting interest had expanded by a fair bit. And the American Congress Fugio was the consumate-end of the line for Colonial, Pre-Confederation and Confederation Coinage (a debate I don't want to get into <s>
I was wondering if anyone was ever going to ask that question <s>.
And if you are fellow C-4 member and have ever been to a Convention you know there is no secret handshake, but you never really are an official member till you have fought off the other members of C-4 at the open Hospitality party and got a jumbo shrimp for yourself to go along with your drink!
Best,
nova caesarea
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......