<< <i>"For Al340, I'll send you your coin back. Let me know when you get it. For the record,I won't be doing any more business with you, nor recommending you to anyone here on the boards. All I ask is that you go ahead and post, on this thread, how much you want for postage and I'll send you a check or cash. That way everyone can see how much your rep was worth.
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice."
John, as I said earlier, I will not be threatened or bullied, you have managed to ruin my reputation over your buyers remorse, I know that you have a lot of friends on this forum and as far as my reputation well you ruined that. I have also heard from several forum members agreeing that it is proabably buyers remorse but some just are like me and don't want to be involved in any more of your drama. But what you did not do is succeed in getting me to bend to your mistake with threats. What I would have expected from a person in your position was to take ownership of your decisions. Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over. Please do not ask me to respond again to this thread, unlike you I do not need this drama in my life.
AL >>
If your reputation has been ruined (and I don't know that it has) it is due to the facts and the way you handled the situation. Do I understand your above post as indicating that you are now also going back on returning the coins to each other, with the other party being responsible for his and your return postage? If so, that almost certainly will ruin your reputation.
Thanks. I see a toning streak between the feathers in that area but nothing that I would dream of asking whether it was a raised carbon fleck.
Edit: 2a) Even if you get a direct answer to a question, establish up front a clear return policy.
Be sure to include some caveat as to establishing contact with the seller. I ran into this problem once where I specifically emailed an eBay dealer about a return privilege on a fairly expensive raw FH half dollar that they claimed came out of an ANACS VF holder. They said no problem to a return priv if I was not satisfied. So I went ahead and made a strong bid and won the coin. What I didn't count on was the seller ignoring my emails for the next week. I had asked to return the coin within 24 hours, as well as 48 and 72 hours, but they later claimed they never got an email. After a month they finally acknowledged an email. They then refused the return claiming that a month had gone by and time expired. After a week I already knew what their game was and had lost. The option was there to just mail the coin back on day 1 but then potentially I could be out both coin and cash. And that in fact happened to me once before in the old days. So it still comes down to who do you trust and what is their word worth? There's really nothing to protect against a seller who is out to take advantage of the situation. I just hope the seller in this thread remains a collector. We can do without another dealer using tactics like that. Frankly, I'm flabbergasted at the seller's latest response to pound sand.
Those are fairly detailed pics. I wonder if there's any buyers remorse involved here
Obviously not detailed enough as to clearly show an obverse spot that has depth to it. And without some clarification from the seller which wasn't forthcoming, I'd be concerned about the green corrosion spot on the reverse...unless that's on the holder. I think the seller is delighted to be rid of a problem coin that was easily saleable because of the ogh. I know I would be.
<< <i>"For Al340, I'll send you your coin back. Let me know when you get it. For the record,I won't be doing any more business with you, nor recommending you to anyone here on the boards. All I ask is that you go ahead and post, on this thread, how much you want for postage and I'll send you a check or cash. That way everyone can see how much your rep was worth.
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice."
John, as I said earlier, I will not be threatened or bullied, you have managed to ruin my reputation over your buyers remorse, I know that you have a lot of friends on this forum and as far as my reputation well you ruined that. I have also heard from several forum members agreeing that it is proabably buyers remorse but some just are like me and don't want to be involved in any more of your drama. But what you did not do is succeed in getting me to bend to your mistake with threats. What I would have expected from a person in your position was to take ownership of your decisions. Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over. Please do not ask me to respond again to this thread, unlike you I do not need this drama in my life.
AL >>
I'm getting blunt in my old age: the above post is total bullchit. Buyer's remorse over this? Doubtful. If a man asks about spots, is assured there are none and then when he receives the coin there's carbon .... well, that about says it all.
<< <i>Edit: 2a) Even if you get a direct answer to a question, establish up front a clear return policy.
Be sure to include some caveat as to establishing contact with the seller. I ran into this problem once where I specifically emailed an eBay dealer about a return privilege on a fairly expensive raw FH half dollar that they claimed came out of an ANACS VF holder. They said no problem to a return priv if I was not satisfied. So I went ahead and made a strong bid and won the coin. What I didn't count on was the seller ignoring my emails for the next week. I had asked to return the coin within 24 hours, as well as 48 and 72 hours, but they later claimed they never got an email. After a month they finally acknowledged an email. They then refused the return claiming that a month had gone by and time expired. After a week I already knew what their game was and had lost. The option was there to just mail the coin back on day 1 but then potentially I could be out both coin and cash. And that in fact happened to me once before in the old days. So it still comes down to who do you trust and what is their word worth? There's really nothing to protect against a seller who is out to take advantage of the situation. I just hope the seller in this thread remains a collector. We can do without another dealer using tactics like that.
roadrunner >>
After several days of non-responsiveness from a seller, I would be on the horn to PayPal alerting them of a "developing situation". I'm pretty sure they'd have ruled in your favor in the instance you cite.
<< <i>"For Al340, I'll send you your coin back. Let me know when you get it. For the record,I won't be doing any more business with you, nor recommending you to anyone here on the boards. All I ask is that you go ahead and post, on this thread, how much you want for postage and I'll send you a check or cash. That way everyone can see how much your rep was worth.
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice."
John, as I said earlier, I will not be threatened or bullied, you have managed to ruin my reputation over your buyers remorse, I know that you have a lot of friends on this forum and as far as my reputation well you ruined that. I have also heard from several forum members agreeing that it is proabably buyers remorse but some just are like me and don't want to be involved in any more of your drama. But what you did not do is succeed in getting me to bend to your mistake with threats. What I would have expected from a person in your position was to take ownership of your decisions. Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over. Please do not ask me to respond again to this thread, unlike you I do not need this drama in my life.
AL >>
I'm getting blunt in my old age: the above post is total bullchit. Buyer's remorse over this? Doubtful. If a man asks about spots, is assured there are none and then when he receives the coin there's carbon .... well, that about says it all. >>
After several days of non-responsiveness from a seller, I would be on the horn to PayPal alerting them of a "developing situation". I'm pretty sure they'd have ruled in your favor in the instance you cite.
Me too. But this occured back in 2006 or so before the PayPal only days. I paid by check. The dealer in question was in the upper MidWest and was fairly well known, even on this board. They are still around probably doing the same old schtick.
TDN, you aren't getting older, you're getter better.
And while you can certainly assign a general grade to any coin from nice enlarged photos like this one. What they can't do for you is to clearly identify subtle faults such as hairlines, stains, rim taps, and even spotting. For instance what are those 2 whitish "flakes" on the obv near the rim at 11-12:00? I'd guess planchet flaws but I could be mistaken. They could be stains or other foreign material. Seller would have to help out and define those.
This is why I do not trade coins unless both parties are in person or at the very least I make sure we both need to be 100% satisfied before a deal is finished. What may turn me away from a coin may not be an issue to someone else and what may be an issue to someone else may not be an issue to me. On another note I did just purchase three coins from the seller al40 and all seems to be goiing just fine at the moment. I will update when the coins arrive but I am not worried at all and I assume the deal will go through fine.
<< <i>"For Al340, I'll send you your coin back. Let me know when you get it. For the record,I won't be doing any more business with you, nor recommending you to anyone here on the boards. All I ask is that you go ahead and post, on this thread, how much you want for postage and I'll send you a check or cash. That way everyone can see how much your rep was worth.
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice."
John, as I said earlier, I will not be threatened or bullied, you have managed to ruin my reputation over your buyers remorse, I know that you have a lot of friends on this forum and as far as my reputation well you ruined that. I have also heard from several forum members agreeing that it is proabably buyers remorse but some just are like me and don't want to be involved in any more of your drama. But what you did not do is succeed in getting me to bend to your mistake with threats. What I would have expected from a person in your position was to take ownership of your decisions. Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over. Please do not ask me to respond again to this thread, unlike you I do not need this drama in my life.
AL >>
I'm getting blunt in my old age: the above post is total bullchit. Buyer's remorse over this? Doubtful. If a man asks about spots, is assured there are none and then when he receives the coin there's carbon .... well, that about says it all. >>
I agree with this. sounds like Al doesnt want the carbon spotted indian back. now there is "buyers remorse".
This is why I do not trade coins unless both parties are in person or at the very least I make sure we both need to be 100% satisfied before a deal is finished. What may turn me away from a coin may not be an issue to someone else and what may be an issue to someone else may not be an issue to me.
I think that these trade deals are much more complicated than an outright purchase, and more apt to blow up. Hypothetically, and assuming that both parties are on speaking terms, what if Al really wants to keep what he received? Should he send CL something else? Should they agree on a purchase price? And when should the coin come back? What if CL does not like the second coin? Do standard return privileges for purchases apply to trades? And on and on...
I agree with Soty. Trades work best in person, or, outside that, between two parties that have a good relationship and know and trust each others tastes and coins.
I was involved in two long distance trades in 2010:
In one case, my trading partner offered me a coin that I had previously seen in his collection, and he traded it to me, with some cash, for a coin that he had previously seen in my collection. Everything worked well.
In the second case, I initiated the choice of a coin and a check to trade the same person in exchange for a coin of his that I had previously seen, in person. I sent my coin and the check to him, on approval, as it were. In this case, he did not like my coin and returned it and the check. We are friends, and there are no hard feelings. The ball is now in my court to come up with an appropriate trade to send back to him.
I feel for both parties, kind of like when my wife and i get into a stupid fight over something inconsequential, but both to stubborn to admit we were wrong. A simple apology works wonders.
<< <i>John, this is not a hypothetical conflict. Please edit the title of your thread to accurately reflect the issue in the thread. >>
Pay shipping both ways, call it done. Don't deal with him again. >>
Based on (edited to reflect his correct user name) Al410's's last post to this thread, now, it sounds to me as if he is unwilling to allow John to return the coin, even if he is willing to pay postage both ways. "....Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over."
Am I missing something here? Everybody keeps calling him Al340 but his moniker seems to be Al410.
My own personal thoughts are all over the place on this one. For one thing the OP outed the transaction but kept names out. Then the original seller outed himself and now seems to be angry he was outed.
However if the trade occurred on BST it was probably just a matter of time before someone else dug it up and posted anyway.
File me in the "I don't care either way" camp. I see no great failure or fault on either end. Just two guys butting heads over a transaction. Let them butt heads. I still don't think either party has done anything shocking or outrageous enough that anybody else shouldn't deal with them but that's everybody's own call to make.
It's fun to watch but probably never should have gotten posted here.
Here's my thinking. I did not see the toning spot on the reverse right away but it does appear on the reverse image. Important info, maybe.
My suspicions are that the recipient of the coin missed seeing the spot on the images and only saw the spot for the first time when the coin was in hand.
They're both not dealers, I am assuming.
The reverse spot is what every sophisticated owner of that coin will see from now until hell freezes over and that's why the "seller" of the coin wanted to jettison it and why now the recipient wants to send it back with as little financial loss as possible.
Here's what I would recommend, assuming I am correct in my assumptions:
Recipient, you should chalk up this experience as being a learning experience and suck it up. Be glad your loss is probably only going to be worth the price of shovelling out your neighbor's driveway of snow.
Seller of the coin didn't do anything wrong, accept get stuck with the coin in the first place....like you are now.....it's a hot potato that neither of you wants.
Because seller is not a PNG dealer who would have to give a 30 days return privilege, and because you did not get a return privilege with the coin, oral or written, there is no return privilege since the goods were not misdescribed......there is no fraud, you just missed seeing the spot.
Recipient.....put the coin into a Teletrade auction or another auction, unreserved, say goodbye to it and never buy a coin without getting a written approval OR buy all your coins from PNG dealers.
Seller probably:
1. wishes that he never bought the coin in the first place 2. wishes that he would not have sold the coin to a board member and 3. wishes he would have off loaded the coin through Teletrade less than 20 picoseconds after seeing the spot. 4. is glad that he will never have to see that coin again.
1. wishes that he never bought the coin in the first place 2. wishes that he would not have sold the coin to a board member and 3. wishes he would have off loaded the coin through Teletrade less than 20 picoseconds after seeing the spot. 4. is glad that he will never have to see that coin again. >>
Those still aren't good reasons for not answering a direct question about the coin before agreeing to a trade.
Ok, so, the seller said "it looks like the image" in response to the question of "does it have any spots"?
Sorry buds, doesn't change anything. Buyer made an incorrect assumption.
Now, rememer the legal or just or fair thing isn't always the wise thing.
If I were the buyer, I would do what I recommended.....off load it on Teletrade.
If I was the seller, and $150 wasn't a large amount of money I would do the wise thing and at least offer to split the loss with the buyer afte it goes away through Teletrade. That is a compromise and both of you can maybe even stay friends.
It was a trade- there was no exclusive "buyer" or "seller" in the deal. Maybe I've lived a sheltered life, but I've always figured in a trade, both parties have to be satisfied in order for it to be a "done deal".
It was a trade- there was no exclusive "buyer" or "seller" in the deal. Maybe I've lived a sheltered life, but I've always figured in a trade, both parties have to be satisfied in order for it to be a "done deal". >>
However, if the seller has an IQ of over 145, he probably would say......
"Ya, know....while I have no legal obligation to undo the transaction, I wouldn't have done it that way if I had it all over to do again. I should have answered the question directly, 'yes, it's got a spot'. I should have realized long ago that no one is going to want the coin, and just offloaded it myself through Teletrade instead of trying to take advantage of another person's mistake. I did something I would not have wanted anyone else to do to me and now realize that it is going to be wiser of me to belly up to the bar of kindness and higher standards and just work with the buyer to a mutually satisfactory conclusion even if it means taking the coin back. I was thinking about doing this long before the Snake posted his suggestion."
(Remember, you can't get anywhere in politics or business if you have not been "in recovery".)
(And I would think......"Boy, I'm glad I turned this thing around.....if I hadn't have changed directions, this thing would have only gotton worse. Snake....he's alright. A little narcisistic, but alright.)
I didn't read all the posts. I read far enough to learn that the OP was started over about a $5 dispute over who was paying for return postage. I wouldn't have started a thread over a $5 dispute in a BST transaction. I would have paid the postage both ways and made a mental note not to deal with the person in the future.
Bottom line, I wouldn't have handled either side the way our two combatants chose to.
I'm checking the moon cycle. We seem to have an abundance of embattled BST deals here today.
<< <i>However, if the seller has an IQ of over 145, he probably would say......
"Ya, know....while I have no legal obligation to undo the transaction, I wouldn't have done it that way if I had it all over to do again. I should have answered the question directly, 'yes, it's got a spot'. I should have realized long ago that no one is going to want the coin, and just offloaded it myself through Teletrade instead of trying to take advantage of another person's mistake. I did something I would not have wanted anyone else to do to me and now realize that it is going to be wiser of me to belly up to the bar of kindness and higher standards and just work with the buyer to a mutually satisfactory conclusion even if it means taking the coin back. I was thinking about doing this long before the Snake posted his suggestion."
(Remember, you can't get anywhere in politics or business if you have not been "in recovery".)
(And I would think......"Boy, I'm glad I turned this thing around.....if I hadn't have changed directions, this thing would have only gotton worse.) >>
The seller and I had this discussion via PM earlier. But I, with an IQ much higher than 145, did it in far fewer words.
Does ANA membership also assume return privilege? Does it apply to collectors? Trades? >>
I don't think membership in the ANA requires you to adhere to any code of behavior other than the check paying the dues must not bounce. Break that one and they don't let you in.
Does ANA membership also assume return privilege? Does it apply to collectors? Trades? >>
<< I don't think membership in the ANA requires you to adhere to any code of behavior other than the check paying the dues must not bounce. Break that one and they don't let you in.>>
"Dealer Code of Ethics
Approved August 1967 by the ANA Board of Governors; revised March 2002.
As an ANA member dealer, I agree to comply with the following principles:
To comply with the ANA Member Code of Ethics. To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate. To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability. To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such. To frequently publish my statement of return privileges, which will allow my customers a designated period of time in which to return numismatic material for a refund, except bullion or bullion-related material may not be returned for a refund. Said period of time shall not be less than fifteen (15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material or not less than ten (10) days after my customer’s receipt thereof or my attempted delivery thereof to my customer, whichever time period shall be the earlier. If a customer submits a misdescribed or overgraded coin to a certification service for authentication or grading and notifies me of such submission within ten (10) days of my date of mailing or other delivery, I will continue to recognize his/her return privilege for thirty (30) days after my customer’s receipt of said coin from me. In an auction sale of consigned material, the return privilege period may be made available only to mail bidders, and the period for the return of such material may be limited to five (5) days from the mail bidder’s receipt thereof or fifteen (15) days from the bidder’s receipt of the invoice for such material or my attempted delivery of my invoice therefor, whichever time period shall be the earlier. Whether or not an item has been returned within the limited return period, a dealer may be subject to expulsion or other disciplinary action for a) the intentional sale of any counterfeit item or any item with an altered date or mintmark; b) the intentional misrepresentation as to the grade of any item; or c) the failure or refusal to provide a refund or replacement for any item referred to in a) or b) preceding, whether or not the sale or misrepresentation was intentional. Anything herein to the contrary notwithstanding, I shall have the right to enforce my written terms of sale furnished to a customer or the written provisions of my contract with a customer, even if such terms and/or provisions restrict or prohibit the return of numismatic material, contrary to the return privilege provisions set forth herein. However, said terms and provisions may not provide a time limit for the return of a counterfeit coin unless I have informed my customer that a coin may not be genuine and he/she has agreed that the coin cannot be returned to me for a refund in the event it is determined to be counterfeit.
To abide by all local, state and federal laws in all numismatic matters and to assist in the prosecution of violators of the law in this respect. To recognize and respect my own contracts and business dealings and those of fellow members of the Association. To refrain from making unjustified and/or false statements or misrepresentations in my relations with others, and to fully cooperate in the advancement of our hobby and business in my relations with collector and dealer alike. Any violation of this code will be grounds for expulsion from the American Numismatic Association."
The ANA Dealer Code of Ethics is great, but I don't think either party was acting as a dealer in this transaction. Of course, Mark did not state that this code of ethics specifically applied to this transaction and was rather addressing part of Adrian's statement.
And to think I got blocked for asking for additional pictures and when I asked on here what I did wrong, basically I was told that I had provided too much information, that I am a PITA..
The details regarding this transaction are symptoms of a larger problem with both parties IMHO..... where there is smoke, there is fire.. It takes two to tango, etc etc etc.
Is just me, and association is bringing about an assimilation? because I feel both should be blocked from any further BST business.
Both of you, the deal is done. go to your rooms, time out for the rest of the night, furthermore you bring it up again you, will be grounded for the weekend!
Thanks, TomB. I think you are correct on all points. I posted this message just to further validify your post, clarifying Mark's post.
I, of course, will PM Mark to let him know that his post has been both clarified and that the clarification has been validated.
llafoe may possibly clarify and expound on some points. I think though, it is even more likely that he may refudiate at two words used in this post, he, being always one who eschews obfuscation. Furthermore, he will probably do so in a succinct way.
<< <i>The ANA Dealer Code of Ethics is great, but I don't think either party was acting as a dealer in this transaction. Of course, Mark did not state that this code of ethics specifically applied to this transaction and was rather addressing part of Adrian's statement. >>
Tom, (and Adrian), I purposely, initially omitted the following reference to the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics - see the last item below. I interpret it as requiring that any ANA member must adhere to the dealer code of ethics, when buying or selling coins. Please let me know what you think.
"Member Code of Ethics
Approved August 1965 by the ANA Board of Governors; revised February 1995.
Membership in the American Numismatic Association is a privilege extended to those persons and organizations deemed worthy thereof and is not a matter of right. Such membership can be maintained unless the Board of Governors determines that the conduct of a member has been such that, in the best interest of the Association, his/her membership should be terminated.
For the guidance of its members, this Code of Ethics has been duly adopted by the Board of Governors under the authority vested in it by the Federal Charter and the bylaws of the Association. Any violation of this code will be grounds for expulsion from the American Numismatic Association.
As a member of the American Numismatic Association, I agree to comply with the following standards of conduct:
To support and be governed by the Federal Charter and the bylaws of the Association, and by such rules, policies and regulations as may be in force from time to time. To conduct myself so as to bring no reproach or discredit to the Association, or impair the prestige of the membership therein. To base all of my dealings on the highest plane of justice, fairness and morality, and to refrain from making false statements as to the condition of a coin or as to any other matter. To neither buy nor sell numismatic items of which the ownership is questionable. To conform to the accepted standards of dignified advertising. To take immediate steps to correct any error I may make in any transaction. Not to sell, exhibit, produce or advertise a counterfeit, copy, restrike or reproduction of any numismatic item if its nature is not clearly indicated by the word “counterfeit,” “copy,” “restrike,” or “reproduction,” incused in the metal or printed on the paper thereof, with the exception of items generally accepted by numismatists and not in any way misrepresented as genuine. To represent a numismatic item to be genuine only when, to the best of my knowledge and belief, it is authentic. To fulfill all contracts made by me, either oral or written, to make prompt payments upon delivery and to return immediately any item that is not satisfactory. To give aid to members in their quest for numismatic knowledge. To comply with the Dealer Code of Ethics with respect to my sale or purchase of any numismatic item."
<< <i>Thanks, TomB. I think you are correct on all points. I posted this message just to further validify your post, clarifying Mark's post.
I, of course, will PM Mark to let him know that his post has been both clarified and that the clarification has been validated.
llafoe may possibly clarify and expound on some points. I think though, it is even more likely that he may refudiate at two words used in this post, he, being always one who eschews obfuscation. Furthermore, he will probably do so in a succinct way. >>
That's fine, Mark, but it would have been much more clear and likely have resulted in fewer posts if you had also posted the member code of ethics in the first post I responded to in this thread instead of only the dealer code of ethics. By posting the dealer code of ethics only, you left the meaning of you post less clear than if you had posted both codes of ethics.
Comments
<< <i>"For Al340, I'll send you your coin back. Let me know when you get it. For the record,I won't be doing any more business with you, nor recommending you to anyone here on the boards. All I ask is that you go ahead and post, on this thread, how much you want for postage and I'll send you a check or cash. That way everyone can see how much your rep was worth.
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice."
John, as I said earlier, I will not be threatened or bullied, you have managed to ruin my reputation over your buyers remorse, I know that you have a lot of friends on this forum and as far as my reputation well you ruined that. I have also heard from several forum members agreeing that it is proabably buyers remorse but some just are like me and don't want to be involved in any more of your drama. But what you did not do is succeed in getting me to bend to your mistake with threats. What I would have expected from a person in your position was to take ownership of your decisions. Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over. Please do not ask me to respond again to this thread, unlike you I do not need this drama in my life.
AL >>
If your reputation has been ruined (and I don't know that it has) it is due to the facts and the way you handled the situation. Do I understand your above post as indicating that you are now also going back on returning the coins to each other, with the other party being responsible for his and your return postage? If so, that almost certainly will ruin your reputation.
Thanks. I see a toning streak between the feathers in that area but nothing that I would dream of asking whether it was a raised carbon fleck.
Edit: 2a) Even if you get a direct answer to a question, establish up front a clear return policy.
Be sure to include some caveat as to establishing contact with the seller. I ran into this problem once where I specifically emailed an eBay dealer about a return privilege on a fairly expensive raw FH half dollar that they claimed came out of an ANACS VF holder. They said no problem to a return priv if I was not satisfied. So I went ahead and made a strong bid and won the coin. What I didn't count on was the seller ignoring my emails for the next week. I had asked to return the coin within 24 hours, as well as 48 and 72 hours, but they later claimed they never got an email. After a month they finally acknowledged an email. They then refused the return claiming that a month had gone by and time expired. After a week I already knew what their game was and had lost. The option was there to just mail the coin back on day 1 but then potentially I could be out both coin and cash. And that in fact happened to me once before in the old days. So it still comes down to who do you trust and what is their word worth? There's really nothing to protect against a seller who is out to take advantage of the situation. I just hope the seller in this thread remains a collector. We can do without another dealer using tactics like that. Frankly, I'm flabbergasted at the seller's latest response to pound sand.
Those are fairly detailed pics. I wonder if there's any buyers remorse involved here
Obviously not detailed enough as to clearly show an obverse spot that has depth to it. And without some clarification from the seller which wasn't forthcoming, I'd be concerned about the green corrosion spot on the reverse...unless that's on the holder. I think the seller is delighted to be rid of a problem coin that was easily saleable because of the ogh. I know I would be.
roadrunner
<< <i>
Not to change the subject, but is that a "die clash" on the reverse? Is that common for indian head cents?
I hope both parties can work throu thier differences. >>
Yes, Caleb, it is. I think it is fair to say that they are neither rare nor particularly common.
<< <i> It still comes down to who do you trust and what is their word worth. >>
And if you stay here long enough, you can get a good idea of both.
<< <i>"For Al340, I'll send you your coin back. Let me know when you get it. For the record,I won't be doing any more business with you, nor recommending you to anyone here on the boards. All I ask is that you go ahead and post, on this thread, how much you want for postage and I'll send you a check or cash. That way everyone can see how much your rep was worth.
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice."
John, as I said earlier, I will not be threatened or bullied, you have managed to ruin my reputation over your buyers remorse, I know that you have a lot of friends on this forum and as far as my reputation well you ruined that. I have also heard from several forum members agreeing that it is proabably buyers remorse but some just are like me and don't want to be involved in any more of your drama. But what you did not do is succeed in getting me to bend to your mistake with threats. What I would have expected from a person in your position was to take ownership of your decisions. Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over. Please do not ask me to respond again to this thread, unlike you I do not need this drama in my life.
AL >>
I'm getting blunt in my old age: the above post is total bullchit. Buyer's remorse over this? Doubtful. If a man asks about spots, is assured there are none and then when he receives the coin there's carbon .... well, that about says it all.
<< <i>Edit: 2a) Even if you get a direct answer to a question, establish up front a clear return policy.
Be sure to include some caveat as to establishing contact with the seller. I ran into this problem once where I specifically emailed an eBay dealer about a return privilege on a fairly expensive raw FH half dollar that they claimed came out of an ANACS VF holder. They said no problem to a return priv if I was not satisfied. So I went ahead and made a strong bid and won the coin. What I didn't count on was the seller ignoring my emails for the next week. I had asked to return the coin within 24 hours, as well as 48 and 72 hours, but they later claimed they never got an email. After a month they finally acknowledged an email. They then refused the return claiming that a month had gone by and time expired. After a week I already knew what their game was and had lost. The option was there to just mail the coin back on day 1 but then potentially I could be out both coin and cash. And that in fact happened to me once before in the old days. So it still comes down to who do you trust and what is their word worth? There's really nothing to protect against a seller who is out to take advantage of the situation. I just hope the seller in this thread remains a collector. We can do without another dealer using tactics like that.
roadrunner >>
After several days of non-responsiveness from a seller, I would be on the horn to PayPal
alerting them of a "developing situation". I'm pretty sure they'd have ruled in your favor
in the instance you cite.
<< <i>
<< <i>"For Al340, I'll send you your coin back. Let me know when you get it. For the record,I won't be doing any more business with you, nor recommending you to anyone here on the boards. All I ask is that you go ahead and post, on this thread, how much you want for postage and I'll send you a check or cash. That way everyone can see how much your rep was worth.
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice."
John, as I said earlier, I will not be threatened or bullied, you have managed to ruin my reputation over your buyers remorse, I know that you have a lot of friends on this forum and as far as my reputation well you ruined that. I have also heard from several forum members agreeing that it is proabably buyers remorse but some just are like me and don't want to be involved in any more of your drama. But what you did not do is succeed in getting me to bend to your mistake with threats. What I would have expected from a person in your position was to take ownership of your decisions. Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over. Please do not ask me to respond again to this thread, unlike you I do not need this drama in my life.
AL >>
I'm getting blunt in my old age: the above post is total bullchit. Buyer's remorse over this? Doubtful. If a man asks about spots, is assured there are none and then when he receives the coin there's carbon .... well, that about says it all. >>
alerting them of a "developing situation". I'm pretty sure they'd have ruled in your favor
in the instance you cite.
Me too. But this occured back in 2006 or so before the PayPal only days. I paid by check. The dealer in question was in the upper MidWest and was fairly well known, even on this board. They are still around probably doing the same old schtick.
TDN, you aren't getting older, you're getter better.
And while you can certainly assign a general grade to any coin from nice enlarged photos like this one. What they can't do for you is to clearly identify subtle faults such as hairlines, stains, rim taps, and even spotting. For instance what are those 2 whitish "flakes" on the obv near the rim at 11-12:00? I'd guess planchet flaws but I could be mistaken. They could be stains or other foreign material. Seller would have to help out and define those.
roadrunner
This is why I do not trade coins unless both parties are in person or at the very least I make sure we both need to be 100% satisfied before a deal is finished. What may turn me away from a coin may not be an issue to someone else and what may be an issue to someone else may not be an issue to me. On another note I did just purchase three coins from the seller al40 and all seems to be goiing just fine at the moment. I will update when the coins arrive but I am not worried at all and I assume the deal will go through fine.
<< <i>
<< <i>"For Al340, I'll send you your coin back. Let me know when you get it. For the record,I won't be doing any more business with you, nor recommending you to anyone here on the boards. All I ask is that you go ahead and post, on this thread, how much you want for postage and I'll send you a check or cash. That way everyone can see how much your rep was worth.
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice."
John, as I said earlier, I will not be threatened or bullied, you have managed to ruin my reputation over your buyers remorse, I know that you have a lot of friends on this forum and as far as my reputation well you ruined that. I have also heard from several forum members agreeing that it is proabably buyers remorse but some just are like me and don't want to be involved in any more of your drama. But what you did not do is succeed in getting me to bend to your mistake with threats. What I would have expected from a person in your position was to take ownership of your decisions. Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over. Please do not ask me to respond again to this thread, unlike you I do not need this drama in my life.
AL >>
I'm getting blunt in my old age: the above post is total bullchit. Buyer's remorse over this? Doubtful. If a man asks about spots, is assured there are none and then when he receives the coin there's carbon .... well, that about says it all. >>
I agree with this.
sounds like Al doesnt want the carbon spotted indian back. now there is "buyers remorse".
I think that these trade deals are much more complicated than an outright purchase, and more apt to blow up. Hypothetically, and assuming that both parties are on speaking terms, what if Al really wants to keep what he received? Should he send CL something else? Should they agree on a purchase price? And when should the coin come back? What if CL does not like the second coin? Do standard return privileges for purchases apply to trades? And on and on...
I agree with Soty. Trades work best in person, or, outside that, between two parties that have a good relationship and know and trust each others tastes and coins.
I was involved in two long distance trades in 2010:
In one case, my trading partner offered me a coin that I had previously seen in his collection, and he traded it to me, with some cash, for a coin that he had previously seen in my collection. Everything worked well.
In the second case, I initiated the choice of a coin and a check to trade the same person in exchange for a coin of his that I had previously seen, in person. I sent my coin and the check to him, on approval, as it were. In this case, he did not like my coin and returned it and the check. We are friends, and there are no hard feelings. The ball is now in my court to come up with an appropriate trade to send back to him.
Edited to add GO STEELERS!
<< <i>John, this is not a hypothetical conflict. Please edit the title of your thread to accurately reflect the issue in the thread. >>
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>
<< <i>John, this is not a hypothetical conflict. Please edit the title of your thread to accurately reflect the issue in the thread. >>
Based on (edited to reflect his correct user name) Al410's's last post to this thread, now, it sounds to me as if he is unwilling to allow John to return the coin, even if he is willing to pay postage both ways. "....Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over."
My own personal thoughts are all over the place on this one. For one thing the OP outed the transaction but kept names out. Then the original seller outed himself and now seems to be angry he was outed.
However if the trade occurred on BST it was probably just a matter of time before someone else dug it up and posted anyway.
File me in the "I don't care either way" camp. I see no great failure or fault on either end. Just two guys butting heads over a transaction. Let them butt heads. I still don't think either party has done anything shocking or outrageous enough that anybody else shouldn't deal with them but that's everybody's own call to make.
It's fun to watch but probably never should have gotten posted here.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
Here's my thinking. I did not see the toning spot on the reverse right away but it does appear on the reverse image. Important info, maybe.
My suspicions are that the recipient of the coin missed seeing the spot on the images and only saw the spot for the first time when the coin was in hand.
They're both not dealers, I am assuming.
The reverse spot is what every sophisticated owner of that coin will see from now until hell freezes over and that's why the "seller" of the coin wanted to jettison it and why now the recipient wants to send it back with as little financial loss as possible.
Here's what I would recommend, assuming I am correct in my assumptions:
Recipient, you should chalk up this experience as being a learning experience and suck it up. Be glad your loss is probably only going to be worth the price of shovelling out your neighbor's driveway of snow.
Seller of the coin didn't do anything wrong, accept get stuck with the coin in the first place....like you are now.....it's a hot potato that neither of you wants.
Because seller is not a PNG dealer who would have to give a 30 days return privilege, and because you did not get a return privilege with the coin, oral or written, there is no return privilege since the goods were not misdescribed......there is no fraud, you just missed seeing the spot.
Recipient.....put the coin into a Teletrade auction or another auction, unreserved, say goodbye to it and never buy a coin without getting a written approval OR buy all your coins from PNG dealers.
Seller probably:
1. wishes that he never bought the coin in the first place
2. wishes that he would not have sold the coin to a board member and
3. wishes he would have off loaded the coin through Teletrade less than 20 picoseconds after seeing the spot.
4. is glad that he will never have to see that coin again.
Note to Anaconda: By not reading the thread, you missed the essence of the matter...
Does ANA membership also assume return privilege? Does it apply to collectors? Trades?
<< <i>Seller probably:
1. wishes that he never bought the coin in the first place
2. wishes that he would not have sold the coin to a board member and
3. wishes he would have off loaded the coin through Teletrade less than 20 picoseconds after seeing the spot.
4. is glad that he will never have to see that coin again. >>
Those still aren't good reasons for not answering a direct question about the coin before agreeing to a trade.
Did you have some amnesia in costa rica?
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
Sorry buds, doesn't change anything. Buyer made an incorrect assumption.
Now, rememer the legal or just or fair thing isn't always the wise thing.
If I were the buyer, I would do what I recommended.....off load it on Teletrade.
If I was the seller, and $150 wasn't a large amount of money I would do the wise thing and at least offer to split the loss with the buyer afte it goes away through Teletrade. That is a compromise and both of you can maybe even stay friends.
<< <i>Ok, so, the seller said... >>
It was a trade- there was no exclusive "buyer" or "seller" in the deal. Maybe I've lived a sheltered life, but I've always figured in a trade, both parties have to be satisfied in order for it to be a "done deal".
<< <i>
<< <i>Ok, so, the seller said... >>
It was a trade- there was no exclusive "buyer" or "seller" in the deal. Maybe I've lived a sheltered life, but I've always figured in a trade, both parties have to be satisfied in order for it to be a "done deal". >>
"Ya, know....while I have no legal obligation to undo the transaction, I wouldn't have done it that way if I had it all over to do again. I should have answered the question directly, 'yes, it's got a spot'. I should have realized long ago that no one is going to want the coin, and just offloaded it myself through Teletrade instead of trying to take advantage of another person's mistake. I did something I would not have wanted anyone else to do to me and now realize that it is going to be wiser of me to belly up to the bar of kindness and higher standards and just work with the buyer to a mutually satisfactory conclusion even if it means taking the coin back. I was thinking about doing this long before the Snake posted his suggestion."
(Remember, you can't get anywhere in politics or business if you have not been "in recovery".)
(And I would think......"Boy, I'm glad I turned this thing around.....if I hadn't have changed directions, this thing would have only gotton worse. Snake....he's alright. A little narcisistic, but alright.)
<< <i>Adrian,
Did you have some good ganja in costa rica?
John >>
Fixed it for you. The net effect's the same.
Bottom line, I wouldn't have handled either side the way our two combatants chose to.
I'm checking the moon cycle. We seem to have an abundance of embattled BST deals here today.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
<< <i>
<< <i>Adrian, Did you have some good ganja in costa rica? John >>
Fixed it for you. The net effect's the same.
What, do you think I would buy cheap ganja (if I were to buy ganga)?
<< <i>However, if the seller has an IQ of over 145, he probably would say......
"Ya, know....while I have no legal obligation to undo the transaction, I wouldn't have done it that way if I had it all over to do again. I should have answered the question directly, 'yes, it's got a spot'. I should have realized long ago that no one is going to want the coin, and just offloaded it myself through Teletrade instead of trying to take advantage of another person's mistake. I did something I would not have wanted anyone else to do to me and now realize that it is going to be wiser of me to belly up to the bar of kindness and higher standards and just work with the buyer to a mutually satisfactory conclusion even if it means taking the coin back. I was thinking about doing this long before the Snake posted his suggestion."
(Remember, you can't get anywhere in politics or business if you have not been "in recovery".)
(And I would think......"Boy, I'm glad I turned this thing around.....if I hadn't have changed directions, this thing would have only gotton worse.) >>
The seller and I had this discussion via PM earlier. But I, with an IQ much higher than 145, did it in far fewer words.
<< <i>Furthermore, I never said I was the brightest knife in the shed. >>
No need to apologize, we already knew you were an attorney.
<< <i>Anaconda,
Does ANA membership also assume return privilege? Does it apply to collectors? Trades? >>
I don't think membership in the ANA requires you to adhere to any code of behavior other than the check paying the dues must not bounce. Break that one and they don't let you in.
<< <i>
<< <i>Furthermore, I never said I was the brightest knife in the shed. >>
No need to apologize, we already knew you were an attorney.
Yes, that's true, I were an attorney.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Adrian, Did you have some good ganja in costa rica? John >>
Fixed it for you. The net effect's the same.
What, do you think I would buy cheap ganja (if I were to buy ganga)? >>
oh man you rock
as for the 2 parties involved, just send the stuff back and end this, it wasnt a done deal.
both parties are over 30 years old correct?:
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
<< <i>
<< <i>Anaconda,
Does ANA membership also assume return privilege? Does it apply to collectors? Trades? >>
<< I don't think membership in the ANA requires you to adhere to any code of behavior other than the check paying the dues must not bounce. Break that one and they don't let you in.>>
"Dealer Code of Ethics
Approved August 1967 by the ANA Board of Governors; revised March 2002.
As an ANA member dealer, I agree to comply with the following principles:
To comply with the ANA Member Code of Ethics.
To purchase and sell numismatic items at prices commensurate with a reasonable return to the seller and for a reasonable return on my investment with regards to the then prevailing rate.
To furnish my clientele with advice on numismatic information to the best of my ability.
To not knowingly handle for resale forgeries, counterfeits, unmarked copies, altered coins or other spurious numismatic merchandise that is not clearly labeled as such.
To frequently publish my statement of return privileges, which will allow my customers a designated period of time in which to return numismatic material for a refund, except bullion or bullion-related material may not be returned for a refund. Said period of time shall not be less than fifteen (15) days from the recorded date of receipt or other transmittal of said material or not less than ten (10) days after my customer’s receipt thereof or my attempted delivery thereof to my customer, whichever time period shall be the earlier.
If a customer submits a misdescribed or overgraded coin to a certification service for authentication or grading and notifies me of such submission within ten (10) days of my date of mailing or other delivery, I will continue to recognize his/her return privilege for thirty (30) days after my customer’s receipt of said coin from me.
In an auction sale of consigned material, the return privilege period may be made available only to mail bidders, and the period for the return of such material may be limited to five (5) days from the mail bidder’s receipt thereof or fifteen (15) days from the bidder’s receipt of the invoice for such material or my attempted delivery of my invoice therefor, whichever time period shall be the earlier.
Whether or not an item has been returned within the limited return period, a dealer may be subject to expulsion or other disciplinary action for
a) the intentional sale of any counterfeit item or any item with an altered date or mintmark;
b) the intentional misrepresentation as to the grade of any item; or
c) the failure or refusal to provide a refund or replacement for any item referred to in a) or b) preceding, whether or not the sale or misrepresentation was intentional. Anything herein to the contrary notwithstanding, I shall have the right to enforce my written terms of sale furnished to a customer or the written provisions of my contract with a customer, even if such terms and/or provisions restrict or prohibit the return of numismatic material, contrary to the return privilege provisions set forth herein.
However, said terms and provisions may not provide a time limit for the return of a counterfeit coin unless I have informed my customer that a coin may not be genuine and he/she has agreed that the coin cannot be returned to me for a refund in the event it is determined to be counterfeit.
To abide by all local, state and federal laws in all numismatic matters and to assist in the prosecution of violators of the law in this respect.
To recognize and respect my own contracts and business dealings and those of fellow members of the Association.
To refrain from making unjustified and/or false statements or misrepresentations in my relations with others, and to fully cooperate in the advancement of our hobby and business in my relations with collector and dealer alike.
Any violation of this code will be grounds for expulsion from the American Numismatic Association."
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
And to think I got blocked for asking for additional pictures and when I asked on here what I did wrong, basically I was told that I had provided too much information, that I am a PITA..
The details regarding this transaction are symptoms of a larger problem with both parties IMHO..... where there is smoke, there is fire.. It takes two to tango, etc etc etc.
Is just me, and association is bringing about an assimilation? because I feel both should be blocked from any further BST business.
Both of you, the deal is done. go to your rooms, time out for the rest of the night, furthermore you bring it up again you, will be grounded for the weekend!
sheeesh kids today...
<< <i>Out him so this thread can grow to hundreds of responses.
Russ, NCNE >>
hahahahaa I hit reply and saw this post at the top. You called it! Hats off!
I, of course, will PM Mark to let him know that his post has been both clarified and that the clarification has been validated.
llafoe may possibly clarify and expound on some points. I think though, it is even more likely that he may refudiate at two words used in this post, he, being always one who eschews obfuscation. Furthermore, he will probably do so in a succinct way.
<< <i>The ANA Dealer Code of Ethics is great, but I don't think either party was acting as a dealer in this transaction. Of course, Mark did not state that this code of ethics specifically applied to this transaction and was rather addressing part of Adrian's statement. >>
Tom, (and Adrian), I purposely, initially omitted the following reference to the ANA Dealer Code of Ethics - see the last item below. I interpret it as requiring that any ANA member must adhere to the dealer code of ethics, when buying or selling coins. Please let me know what you think.
"Member Code of Ethics
Approved August 1965 by the ANA Board of Governors; revised February 1995.
Membership in the American Numismatic Association is a privilege extended to those persons and organizations deemed worthy thereof and is not a matter of right. Such membership can be maintained unless the Board of Governors determines that the conduct of a member has been such that, in the best interest of the Association, his/her membership should be terminated.
For the guidance of its members, this Code of Ethics has been duly adopted by the Board of Governors under the authority vested in it by the Federal Charter and the bylaws of the Association. Any violation of this code will be grounds for expulsion from the American Numismatic Association.
As a member of the American Numismatic Association, I agree to comply with the following standards of conduct:
To support and be governed by the Federal Charter and the bylaws of the Association, and by such rules, policies and regulations as may be in force from time to time.
To conduct myself so as to bring no reproach or discredit to the Association, or impair the prestige of the membership therein.
To base all of my dealings on the highest plane of justice, fairness and morality, and to refrain from making false statements as to the condition of a coin or as to any other matter.
To neither buy nor sell numismatic items of which the ownership is questionable.
To conform to the accepted standards of dignified advertising.
To take immediate steps to correct any error I may make in any transaction.
Not to sell, exhibit, produce or advertise a counterfeit, copy, restrike or reproduction of any numismatic item if its nature is not clearly indicated by the word “counterfeit,” “copy,” “restrike,” or “reproduction,” incused in the metal or printed on the paper thereof, with the exception of items generally accepted by numismatists and not in any way misrepresented as genuine.
To represent a numismatic item to be genuine only when, to the best of my knowledge and belief, it is authentic.
To fulfill all contracts made by me, either oral or written, to make prompt payments upon delivery and to return immediately any item that is not satisfactory.
To give aid to members in their quest for numismatic knowledge.
To comply with the Dealer Code of Ethics with respect to my sale or purchase of any numismatic item."
<< <i>Thanks, TomB. I think you are correct on all points. I posted this message just to further validify your post, clarifying Mark's post.
I, of course, will PM Mark to let him know that his post has been both clarified and that the clarification has been validated.
llafoe may possibly clarify and expound on some points. I think though, it is even more likely that he may refudiate at two words used in this post, he, being always one who eschews obfuscation. Furthermore, he will probably do so in a succinct way. >>
Be nice!
P.S. Why use a "p" when an "f" will suffice?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson