"Hypothetical" Conflict with forum member on a coin trade: What would you do?
coinlieutenant
Posts: 9,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hello all,
I must say that I am loathe to even write this thread, but I don't know what else I can do at this point. The amount of money that is involved is relatively insignificant ~$150, but I feel a wrong has been committed and needs to be addressed for future people that may have to deal with this forum member.
I will try to keep things unidentifiable as much as possible.
The story goes like this:
I saw a coin posted by a forum member that was recently sold on a bst thread of another forum member that I missed. He (the buyer) had mentioned that it was out of his core collecting area, and would most likely get rid of it via trade in the future. I contacted the buyer and asked if he would like to sell the coin, and that I would make him a small profit.
He wrote me and said he would prefer to trade, I asked him if he wanted anything specific. I had something that matched. Before sending, I asked if there were any spots on the coin (it was copper). He replied back that it looked "exactly like the picture" and was a stellar coin. I was a bit perplexed by the answer, but given the long tenured nature of his on the board, I gave him the benefit of the doubt that it wouldn't all be a waste of time.
There was never any specific mention of approval, although there was no specific mention of a "done deal" either (Shout out to RKKay)
I assumed that both coins would need to meet the standards of the other for the deal to be finalized.
He got his coin, which he said that he liked. I got mine yesterday and was disappointed to see that what appeared to me on the picture as a discoloration that was simply a toning spot, was in fact a significant carbon spot from someone talking over the coin at some time in the past.
I wrote him and said that the coin was unacceptable and that I had specifically asked about the spot for this very reason and that I would be sending it back and that if he wanted to keep the other coin, he could pay me for it or simply send me my coin back.
This made him quite upset and he said he would only send it back after he got his coin in hand, and if I paid him the postage both ways.
We have been unable to come to a resolution and he has broken off comms with me after what I consider to be a reasonable discussion on my part with polite conversation.
What would you do in this situation?
Edited to add: Hypothetical is how I originally posted the thread...I changed it back....
I must say that I am loathe to even write this thread, but I don't know what else I can do at this point. The amount of money that is involved is relatively insignificant ~$150, but I feel a wrong has been committed and needs to be addressed for future people that may have to deal with this forum member.
I will try to keep things unidentifiable as much as possible.
The story goes like this:
I saw a coin posted by a forum member that was recently sold on a bst thread of another forum member that I missed. He (the buyer) had mentioned that it was out of his core collecting area, and would most likely get rid of it via trade in the future. I contacted the buyer and asked if he would like to sell the coin, and that I would make him a small profit.
He wrote me and said he would prefer to trade, I asked him if he wanted anything specific. I had something that matched. Before sending, I asked if there were any spots on the coin (it was copper). He replied back that it looked "exactly like the picture" and was a stellar coin. I was a bit perplexed by the answer, but given the long tenured nature of his on the board, I gave him the benefit of the doubt that it wouldn't all be a waste of time.
There was never any specific mention of approval, although there was no specific mention of a "done deal" either (Shout out to RKKay)
I assumed that both coins would need to meet the standards of the other for the deal to be finalized.
He got his coin, which he said that he liked. I got mine yesterday and was disappointed to see that what appeared to me on the picture as a discoloration that was simply a toning spot, was in fact a significant carbon spot from someone talking over the coin at some time in the past.
I wrote him and said that the coin was unacceptable and that I had specifically asked about the spot for this very reason and that I would be sending it back and that if he wanted to keep the other coin, he could pay me for it or simply send me my coin back.
This made him quite upset and he said he would only send it back after he got his coin in hand, and if I paid him the postage both ways.
We have been unable to come to a resolution and he has broken off comms with me after what I consider to be a reasonable discussion on my part with polite conversation.
What would you do in this situation?
Edited to add: Hypothetical is how I originally posted the thread...I changed it back....
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This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Russ, NCNE
Having communicated and if I recall correctly even conducing business with John, I have trouble believing he acted anything but responsibly and respectfully, I would like to hear the other side of the story -- if only for entertainment value.
Bail out of this bad deal with as little loss as possible and never do business with him again.
AL
<< <i>I would send it back and pay postage both ways and never do biz with him again. Shame on him for not mentioning the spot when asked, but don't sweat the small stuff [ie: postage] >>
Agree. Out this other forum member so we can hear his side of the story.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Why would you think he changed his mind vs. noticing the spot was actually a carbon spot which was clearly unacceptable to him?
You don't want that spotted coin under even if it takes a 10% postage loss to get it done. 2nd extortion thread in a week. These are getting popular.
But there was no deal here until both parties got to inspect the coins in hand. Dealers often work sight-unseen but this involved at least 1-1/2 collectors. No deal.
Even big dealers buying slabbed generic gold sight-unseen can return them if they decide there is something on the coin that disqualifies it from being "problem-free." Those same
standards certainly would apply when collectors are involved, probably more so. Short of a valid written contract to the contrary, no deal until both parties are happy.
Those pics show no dark carbon spotting. Where or how are they being hidden? I had a similar experience on eBay where the photos of a gem MS65 RED early Lincoln showing no spotting. Seller's description said there was no spotting at all. When I got the coin the reverse had a fingerprint that was hidden by how the rev photo was taken/adjusted. Needless to say the seller wanted to part of a return and I ate it.
roadrunner
In this case: I believe you both should send the coins back to each other at the same time, and each party should pay for their own postage. a trade is not a trade unless both parties are happy which in this case one party isn't happy.
a message for the member that is happy, do what is right and send the coin back and pay your own postage.
a message to the member that isn't happy, please out the other trader if he doesn't do what is right. jmho
You guys should have had a little more detail for your "deal"--what if someone doesn't like it. However, we're all a trusting group here and deals get done (especially small ones) where are the details are not worked out.
CL, if those are the spots in question I'd say pay shipping both ways and lesson learned. This doesn't need to have anyone get that bent out of shape.
If it's something that is simply not there in the pictures, al420, I'd say maybe you should pick up the shipping because he asked.
Hope you guys can work this out.
Andrew
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
Al, I am sorry, but there has no twisting or tweaking of the facts. None at all.
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
A little 'give' on both parties would be in order here.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
siliconvalleycoins.com
<< <i>First of all I will out myself, I will not be part of a flame thread. I was contacted and asked if I wanted to sell this coin. Long story short the pictures were absolutley reflective of this coin. Had the pictures been flawed I would have no problem with this persons wanting to return the coin. He could have asked for an approval service and did not. I am not a coin dealer so this is not a bussiness for me. and have always been upfront and honest in my coin trades or buys and sells. Just because he changes his mind is not grounds for returning or me being out any money. There are 2 sides to all situations. I will not be bullied or threatened. He feels that by bringing this out in the forum as if asking advice will make me change my mind, well he is wrong. Proabably what will happen is both of us being banned here. Some times we need to be responsible for our actions, He needs to accept his part in this transaction. I will not respond any further except to say that these are the pictures that he purchased this coin from. I asked him to quit sending me PM's when he threatened to go to " higher authorities". Amazing how a person can twist things around so that they have no part in a tranaction except to be the innocent one.
>>
Unfortunately for you, nothing that you wrote conflicts with the relevant parts of the other party's side of the story.
There apparently was no completed transaction, unless or until you both agreed to it, after having seen the coins in person.
The other party specifically asked about a spot, BEFORE you shipped the coin, and you failed to mention it.
And, under the circumstances of this transaction, unless you agreed otherwise, in advance, there is no reason why one party should be responsible for the other's return postage.
You are making yourself look bad, at least to some of us, and over a very small amount of money.
I would have passed based on the pictures. Likes like a green spot on the reverse at 3:00. There also appears to be a spot in the head dress (obv).
I have no doubt that if CoinLT says it's there and it's problematic...it's there.
roadrunner
<< <i>Geez...does it have to come down to signing a 5 page agreement contract when transacting a BST deal?
A little 'give' on both parties would be in order here. >>
And what "give and take" would you recommend for the OP in this case - pay postage both ways? If so, what would you recommend for the other party?
Sometimes if you are completely honest the deal falls through. And if are you pretty honest, it still falls through. That's why the in-hand inspection is the only way to complete a deal.
roadrunner
An in person trade is completed when coins change hands and both people walk away happy.
A through the mail trade is completed when both parties contact the other and say they are happy.
If someone is not happy all items go back to their original owners. At this point you can try another trade or move on.
<< <i>Both parties in a trade have to be happy, otherwise no deal, I would think it goes without saying. >>
1) Technically, you are in the right here.
2) Next time you get a non-direct answer to a question, establish up front a clear return policy.
3) Pay the postage both ways, get out of the deal, and consider it a cheap price for a lesson learned.
Edit: 2a) Even if you get a direct answer to a question, establish up front a clear return policy.
That being said...I also agree that it shouldn't be that hard for the two parties to both "give a little" in order to settle amicably. Good luck with that guys.
(PS - the BST transactions (6-7) I've done to date have all been extremely positive experiences.)
<< <i>Great eye Ahrensdad, I completely missed that green spot on the rev. But I still can't see anything on the headress.
I would have passed based on the pictures. Likes like a green spot on the reverse at 3:00. There also appears to be a spot in the head dress (obv).
I have no doubt that if CoinLT says it's there and it's problematic...it's there.
roadrunner >>
roadrunner,
Look above the L and I in Liberty.
Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>I wonder how many future trades al410 will miss out on with forum members based on his conduct on this deal? I hope it was worth it to you, al410. >>
That is what alts are for
This isn't any worse then buying a coin on ebay from poor images with a return option.
I have to say that I don't really have a problem with the "general answer" that al410 gave regarding the spot. One collector's spot is another collector's "area-of-toning". As a result, it's usually safe to simply send an image that is truly representative of the coin and let the potential buyer judge for himself.
HOWEVER, I agree that a trade is a trade ONLY if both parties are satisfied with their respective coins after receiving them. And since coinlieutenant is not happy with his coin, the trade is voided.
coinlieutenant - Where exactly is the spot to which you refer? I saw the area of toning at 3:00 on the reverse, but I assume you have no objection to this since the impression I got was that the spot in question was black (only my impression).
<< <i>
<< <i>Both parties in a trade have to be happy, otherwise no deal, I would think it goes without saying. >>
<< <i>I feel strongly both ways!!! >>
Our first member from Switzerland... Welcome!
<< <i>First of all I will out myself, I will not be part of a flame thread. I was contacted and asked if I wanted to sell this coin. Long story short the pictures were absolutley reflective of this coin. Had the pictures been flawed I would have no problem with this persons wanting to return the coin. He could have asked for an approval service and did not. I am not a coin dealer so this is not a bussiness for me. and have always been upfront and honest in my coin trades or buys and sells. Just because he changes his mind is not grounds for returning or me being out any money. There are 2 sides to all situations. I will not be bullied or threatened. He feels that by bringing this out in the forum as if asking advice will make me change my mind, well he is wrong. Proabably what will happen is both of us being banned here. Some times we need to be responsible for our actions, He needs to accept his part in this transaction. I will not respond any further except to say that these are the pictures that he purchased this coin from. I asked him to quit sending me PM's when he threatened to go to " higher authorities". Amazing how a person can twist things around so that they have no part in a tranaction except to be the innocent one. I have said how it was and will not defend myself by replying an further in this thread.
AL >>
Both parties must be happy in a trade situation regardless of pics and how representative they are of the coin. Verbal disclosure about a defect is the best way and takes away any question about a spot or mark in the pic. The way this is going down, there is nothing good that is going to come out of it. Each coin needs to be returned to their original owners and both parties walk away.
<< <i>Lets see, this thread is about 2 millionaires upset over who should pay 5.00 postage, I'll be right back-gonna check out the new State Quarters in the other thread
To some extent both parties end up looking a little bad here and I'm sure folks will draw their own conclusions and pick sides.
That being said I probably wouldn't hesitate to deal with either party in a BST transaction if they had something I wanted. Stuff happens.
John
Never view my other linked pages. They aren't coin related.
Ha!! I wish!! Those of you that know me know that this not about the money. Remember the Penny Pincher 2004 incident BigE?
For Al340, I'll send you your coin back. Let me know when you get it. For the record,I won't be doing any more business with you, nor recommending you to anyone here on the boards. All I ask is that you go ahead and post, on this thread, how much you want for postage and I'll send you a check or cash. That way everyone can see how much your rep was worth.
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice.
siliconvalleycoins.com
Not to change the subject, but is that a "die clash" on the reverse? Is that common for indian head cents?
I hope both parties can work throu thier differences.
<< <i>
<< <i>Geez...does it have to come down to signing a 5 page agreement contract when transacting a BST deal?
A little 'give' on both parties would be in order here. >>
And what "give and take" would you recommend for the OP in this case - pay postage both ways? If so, what would you recommend for the other party? >>
I'm speaking in general terms.
I agree with you, the 'give and take' should not be up to the OP in this case.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice."
John, as I said earlier, I will not be threatened or bullied, you have managed to ruin my reputation over your buyers remorse, I know that you have a lot of friends on this forum and as far as my reputation well you ruined that. I have also heard from several forum members agreeing that it is proabably buyers remorse but some just are like me and don't want to be involved in any more of your drama. But what you did not do is succeed in getting me to bend to your mistake with threats. What I would have expected from a person in your position was to take ownership of your decisions. Either way since you chose this route I consider our transaction over. Please do not ask me to respond again to this thread, unlike you I do not need this drama in my life.
AL
<< <i>Lets see, this thread is about 2 millionaires upset over who should pay 5.00 postage, I'll be right back-gonna check out the new State Quarters in the other thread--------------------BigE
Ha!! I wish!! Those of you that know me know that this not about the money. Remember the Penny Pincher 2004 incident BigE?
For Al340, I'll send you your coin back. Let me know when you get it. For the record,I won't be doing any more business with you, nor recommending you to anyone here on the boards. All I ask is that you go ahead and post, on this thread, how much you want for postage and I'll send you a check or cash. That way everyone can see how much your rep was worth.
If you want to just send the coins back to each other and leave it at that, go ahead and reply to that regard as well. I will delete all my posts in that event after we have our respective coins in hand.
One of the reasons why I like this board is that we generally police each other. So when I said I would take it to the next level, I meant it and this is where we are. Your choice.
I'l never forget the "Penny Pincher In Portland"
Just trying to make you smile------------BigE