One of the better fake 1799 DBHE dollars...
jdillane
Posts: 2,365 ✭✭✭
I bought one once on the bay a few years ago but fortunately had the PCGS book on counterfeits. Look at the R in LIBERTY. See the notch? That's the diagnostic.
Notified seller but not ebay. Time will tell what happens...
http://cgi.ebay.com/1799-Liberty-Silver-Dollar-Draped-Bust-/250739889273?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a61431479
Notified seller but not ebay. Time will tell what happens...
http://cgi.ebay.com/1799-Liberty-Silver-Dollar-Draped-Bust-/250739889273?pt=Coins_US_Individual&hash=item3a61431479
3
Comments
If it is a fake I guess it's probably cast.
Interesting point about the 'R'
This is a well known fake that has been around since the 1960's.
Another diagnostic is the rim was applied after the coin was struck, instead of before. It creates a wire rim.
Personally I think every old coin on eBay is a fake.
Many of the older fakes were wrong die parings and had diagnostics as such but I think the new Chinese fakes are copies of real coins and harder to discern. I have nothing to base that on, merely my own speculation.
Detection Presentation" that I sat through for free at the Las Vegas Dealer/Collector
show in Vegas a while back.
nice plug, 'eh?
bob
PS: I too notified seller and advise that he gets it certified before he ships to a buyer!
If it goes to the end I'll notify the buyer too (if he leaves feedback).
Looks like someone bought it on a zero-feedback "Counterfeit-buying account"
But . . a RAW coin? One known far and wide, even OFF these Boards, as being a heavily counterfeited series? And for over 2-Large???
I just don't get it.
Drunner
We were not able to end the auction early as there were less than 12 hours left with bids, according to Ebays rules. We could only sell it to the highest bidder. But I assure you we are negating the deal. Thank you for your information. It's best we learn this now than later. What a disappointment.
bob
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>Its a transfer die fake that was well publicized in the early 1970's by ANACS. Its in the PCGS counterfeit guide too. No way these can be from China since these were made before Nixon went there.
Looks like someone bought it on a zero-feedback "Counterfeit-buying account" >>
I recently picked up the PCGS book Coin Grading and counterfeit detection, and after you pointed out it was in the book I went and checked it out. That pawnshop owner could have saved himself some cash if he had done some research, the diagnostics are perfectly clear.
<< <i>link
This is a well known fake that has been around since the 1960's.
Another diagnostic is the rim was applied after the coin was struck, instead of before. It creates a wire rim. >>
I'm not sure what you mean by "rim applied after strike". Do you mean that the edge lettering was applied after strike ?
On the coin in question, I see what looks like several small rim bumps that could have been caused by lettering the
edge after strike.
Yes. Real ones had the edge lettering applied to the planchet prior to striking in a an open collar. This slightly distorted the edge. On the fake the edge is sharp and flat with the denticles slightly distorted.
Necro-thread revival!
Because I saw this on the ebay.
And found this while researching it. (scroll to "die hard")
Right after Halloween too! How ironic. bwhahahaha
Insert witicism here. [ xxx ]
Ugliest fake toning on a counterfeit coin I've ever seen.
Interesting thread about an older counterfeit. I was not a member here in 2010 or I would have added this:
@Nap said: "If it is a fake I guess it's probably cast."
Actually Not. This was a very deceptive die-struck counterfeit when it first appeared.
@EagleEye said: "This is a well-known fake that has been around since the 1960's. Another diagnostic is the rim was applied after the coin was struck, instead of before. It creates a wire rim."
Actually Not. I don't recall the exact year but I'm 100% certain that it was not on the market prior to 1976 and I believe closer to 1980. Furthermore, while the ANA was the first to publish this fake, another TPGS (no longer in business) was the first to detect it (several months before) and alert the Treasury authenticators. Nevertheless, ANACS deserves all the credit for their "new" discovery.
@timber100 said: "That is nice, scary. Is it a home grown fake or chinese?"
It was never determined where these were made. At the time, the Chinese were not producing anything of this quality. Speculation was either Germany or the Soviet Union.
The link you posted to the webpage is very interesting.
Thank you.
ANACS wrote them up as a new discovery in the June, 1978 issue of The Numismatist, pp. 1160-61. That was a few months before I started working there so I have no idea what the circumstances of the discovery were.
As Insider says these are die-struck and not cast, and the speculation that they might have been made in Germany or the Soviet Union is quite plausible. I would not rule out Switzerland, but again this is speculation. For all I know it could have been the Beirut counterfeiters.
"Gone with the wind" before I could grab a picture.
Oh well I have a number of others in my virtual "black cabinet."
@BillJones .... the link posted by mt_msla is still good....and it has the PUP of the fake...Cheers, RickO
the listing is no longer there according to ebay. fwiw
I forgot to add this...after publication by ANACS of the "diagnostic" flaw on the "R", the same counterfeits were seen with that "defect" filled and fixed. I have one of the coins with the diagnostic "R" in the bank. I will get it and post photos.
I'll repeat, at the time they hit the market they were amazing EXCEPT any numismatist who was familiar with the series could take one look at the edge and say "something doesn't look right." The edge letters and ornamentation is too sharp and has the wrong style! This has been fixed on the Flowing hair dollars published a while back in in The Numismatist and on the web. As with the 1799 (for a short time) these were not detected by anyone and passed as genuine.
In many cases, new counterfeits are detected because someone had a bad "gut feeling" but could not put a finger on the reason. If you have doubts about the authenticity of any coin, send it to our host!
@johnny9434 try this link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1799-1-Draped-Bust-Dollar-VF-Toned/232546622540?epid=170476100&hash=item3624dbdc4c:g:QmUAAOSw9mpZ-jcZ&rmvSB=true
Insert witicism here. [ xxx ]
Buyer realized the coin was a counterfeit and cancelled the purchase. Seller promptly relisted this counterfeit coin and sold it on ebay. We'll have to wait and see if the new buyer returns it and the crook relists it again:
https://ebay.com/itm/1799-1-Draped-Bust-Dollar-VF-Toned-/232553579744?nma=true&si=cdFyriHIl2FcSx%252BWv6Rs6o220Nc%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Update to current time!
Had another one surface, it in a genuine TPG slab. I saved images:
Thank you @burfle23 for snagging and posting images!
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